I'm in Singapore right now..


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twoblink
January 12, 2003, 08:05 AM
I can tell you right now, the cleanest airport I have ever been to... The buildings are all brightly painted, and everything is relatively clean; people smoke eccessively here...

I'm staying with my penpal...

Brave New World and 1984 was describing Singapore..

Communism only WISHED it imposed this many laws..

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Sisco
January 12, 2003, 08:20 AM
Singapore was the only place the USN took me where I was paraniod of breaking some obscure law like dropping a gum wrapper.

El Tejon
January 12, 2003, 08:24 AM
Good luck, Winston!

Coronach
January 12, 2003, 11:19 AM
Hey, Twoblink, I recommend that you don't spraypaint cars while you're there.

Mike :)

4v50 Gary
January 12, 2003, 11:22 AM
My buddy went there right after college. He says Uzi armed cops were watching the luggage. No luggage theft problem in the '80s. Anybody watching luggage now twoblink?

Skunkabilly
January 12, 2003, 12:16 PM
Last time I tried vising Singapore, they made me turn around, because I was on the list of prohibited items. I was surprised they even let me on the plane.

Bruce H
January 12, 2003, 01:04 PM
I was there twice when the now gone Raffles Hotel was a very nice watering hole. Had a great time both times I was there. Respect the local customs and rules and very little will happen to you.

Inoxmark
January 12, 2003, 01:58 PM
Singapore was the only place the USN took me where I was paraniod of breaking some obscure law like dropping a gum wrapper.
They have garbage cans with ashtrays on the sidewalks every 100 feet. They actually help you NOT to break the law. If they fine my ignorant a** for still throwing cigarette butts on the ground I fully deserve it.

Uncle Ethan
January 12, 2003, 02:03 PM
It would be facinating to have threads opened up by you regarding some of the laws they enforce rigidly and how they affect the freedoms and happines of the citizens. Good luck and have a fun time- drink a "sling' for me.

Skunkabilly
January 12, 2003, 06:21 PM
Does your penpal like guns?

Sisco
January 12, 2003, 07:04 PM
If they fine my ignorant a** for still throwing cigarette butts on the ground I fully deserve it.

Are you implying that drunken sailors would intentionally break laws? :D
I guess the point I was trying to make is that Singapore, like any country, has laws and customs one shoud make himself aware of before visiting. Mundane acts (good or bad) that are socially accepted here could land you in court there.

stellarpod
January 12, 2003, 07:11 PM
Sisco said:

Singapore was the only place the USN took me where I was paraniod of breaking some obscure law like dropping a gum wrapper.

Actually, unless things have changed, it's actually against the law there to CHEW GUM - no joke. :uhoh:

stellarpod

Lord Grey Boots
January 12, 2003, 07:15 PM
A friend of mine who was in Singapore for 6 months for work described it as spending all your time in a big shopping mall.

alan
January 12, 2003, 07:27 PM
Don't forget to flush the urinal either.

Bruce in West Oz
January 12, 2003, 08:48 PM
WOT?? You have to flush three times??? :p

Singapore is a very popular holiday destination for us here in Australia. Shopping used to be really good in terms of prices, but the fall of the Aussie dollar (Singapore and Oz now achieve parity, roughly) has lessened the attraction somewhat.

The "rules" aren't all that odious unless you are a criminal .......

Farmed Ship
January 12, 2003, 08:53 PM
It's a freakingly suffocating dictatorship, with
no political freedoms.
Shopping was real good too in the XSSR
for the foreigners.

dleong
January 12, 2003, 09:12 PM
Just for kicks, ask a local there how much cars and houses cost. Remember to pick your jaw up from the ground after you hear the answer...


DL
(A Singaporean living abroad)

4thHorseman
January 12, 2003, 09:39 PM
I was in the USN when I was there. It was one of the nicest places I've ever been. I loved it. Ofcourse, I may of viewed it differently 20 years ago and from a sailor's viewpoint.:D

Inoxmark
January 13, 2003, 02:41 AM
Actually, unless things have changed, it's actually against the law there to CHEW GUM - no joke.
I also heard that chewing gum was verbotten in Singapore. But then when I was there in Sept 2001 they were filming a chewing gum commercial in the middle of that wide sidewalk on Orchard Street. Bunch of hip-looking dancing teenagers. At the conclusion of dancing they would throw right hand forward while holding a pack of chewing gum in the hand. They did a few takes.

Come to think of it, it may have been a commercial AGAINST chewing gum, I don't know. :confused:

labgrade
January 13, 2003, 03:53 AM
I got to go play in Singapore on a business $ account.

No place better for the food, IMNSHO.

I had an absolute hoot there. Finest food, clean livin' (nothing I don't have here), but on an expense account. No worries, mate.

The Wife too later & had a totally different take on the place.

She thought it to be an oppressive ditactorship.

Our following conversation went something like this.

The Wife: :barf: dictatorship

Me: Yes, Honey, but so are we. Only difference is they enforce their laws, we don't.

& truly Singapore has some pretty draconian laws, but so do we. Only real difference is we just enforce them as we see fit, when we choose.

We be so laid back. ;)

twoblink
January 13, 2003, 09:33 AM
We are taking an "Oleg Poster Tour" :D

Yep, she's very cool about guns, she said if she moved to the states, she'd buy one!! I have cool penpals.

As far as Singapore; it's SimCity. Everything here is STERILE... I'm talking EVERYTHING...

I am the happiest person in Singapore; the natives, they ... I don't know, are afraid of being caned if they are too happy or something (you know, thought police; that's why I have my tin foil hat on)

The amount of laws that you will be fined for etc... is incredible.. But despite it all, everybody breaks quite a bit of laws when the cops aren't around, which goes to show, laws don't do squat...

The food is great and very cheap; some of the best I've tasted, on par with Thailand and Taiwan definitely.

I have been giggling all day... The laws as told to me by my host are too funny...

Chewing gun is not illegal; GUM ITSELF is illegal..

The Raffles Hotel is still around, the Westin is the one you are thinking of...

It's a concrete jungle, and all the buildings are sterile white.. There are "big brother" signs everywhere... Things like "Treat this toilet as your own", "There is a Red Light Camera coming up so don't speed" they tell you about the laws you are about to break in hopes you don't break it.

Singapore is a jail without walls. They regulate who can own property and how much you can own. They regulate EVERYTHING...

So far, 2 days down, and 2 to go, and I have not been caned (yet). From personal count, I have broken about 4 dozen laws today alone...

What cracks me up is there is a "Ministry" of everything. Ministry of environment, ministry of sewage, ministry of education, ministry of restrooms... ministry of everything...:cuss:

My theory is, the senior minister sits and plays SimCity, and applies it the next day to Singapore... Either that, or 1984 or BNW..

Huxley would be Singaporean if he were alive today...

If you have a dental problem, they will prescribe gum to you.. but chances are, the dentist won't really care enough to give them to you...

Me and the Merlion, we became good buddies today...

matis
January 13, 2003, 10:04 AM
Here we're going to ex-post facto law, as with political correctness and hate speech on campus -- and in this piece by Fred Reed:


And Vindictiveness For All Evening The Score In The Evening Of Society


The creeping lunacy creeps on, creepishly. It gives life a constancy comforting in an uncertain world. For this we should be grateful.

In the GreeleyTribune* of northern Colorado I see that Mitch Muller, a boy of thirteen, has been expelled from school for a year. Yep. Gone.

You might surmise that he committed some grave crime, that he assaulted a teacher perhaps or was discovered to be selling bulk-lot cocaine. No. He played with a small laser pointer-the sort that projects a red dot onto maps during lectures. It was, said the depressing drones who run the school, a "gun facsimile."

This is fascinating, like a rare and aggressive tumor. Let us think about it.

To begin, there is no substance to the charge. A laser pointer does not look like a gun, no more so than a ball-point pen or a lipstick tube. It isn't a weapon, doesn't look like a weapon, and is not intimidating, being less dangerous than, say, a fist.

Further, note that we are not confronted by a somewhat overzealous application of a reasonable rule. If young Muller had disrupted class and gotten tossed for a week, that would have excessive but not absurd. (Excessive because unnecessary: When you have a male principal who has not been administratively neutered, he says, "Bobby, stop that. Now." That's all he says.)

The child was suspended for a year, not for misbehavior but for possession of a legal and harmless object that was determined ex post facto to be gunlike. You see. Crimes carry harsh penalties, but you cannot tell what things are crimes until after you have committed them. That is, the authorities can find you guilty at will, whenever they wish to punish you.

This isn't discipline. It's sadism-sexless, boring, mean-spirited bureaucratic sadism. The school's officials are seeking to hurt the child because they enjoy doing it.

This Stalinism of the inadequate isn't a fluke. Across the country, time and again, little boys (always boys) are suspended for pointing chicken fingers and saying "bang," for drawing soldiers or the Trade Centers in flames. The schools are in the hands of sodden prisses, intellectual offal, who don't like male children. Mediocrity loves revenge, revenge on others for one's own mediocrity.

"Passive aggression," if memory serves, means an attempt to hurt others while pretending that one's aim is pious. Passive aggression, and its cousin misdirected aggression, dominate American culture. Again and again, bullying is packaged as high principle.

Consider the persecution of smokers-which is what it is. Yes, reasonable restrictions on smoking are, well, reasonable. To have a smoking section in a restaurant is an exercise in consideration, given that having a stream of smoke in one's eyes is unpleasant.

By contrast, putting signs in a subway saying that "second-hand smoke" shortens the lives of children, which it doesn't, with a picture of a piteous, helpless, wide-eyed child, is sheer hostility. So are laws banning smoking within fifteen feet of governmental buildings. The intention is not to provide for the common comfort, but to make smokers as miserable as possible.

The giveaway of a mean-spirited law is that it doesn't do what it pretends to do, yet makes people unhappy. Consider the agitations of the rabble opposed to guns. These vessels of rightness transparently are not concerned to prevent crime with firearms. You hear nothing from them favoring mandatory heavy sentences for using a gun in a crime. Nor do they criticize the drug dealer in the ghetto who kills his enemies. Their efforts are aimed at law-abiding men who own guns.

It is personal hostility disguised as concern with crime.

Similar spuriousness underlies the degrading searches at airports. The government's policy isn't rational. If we armed pilots, watched Moslems, and conducted searches, I might believe that security was the motive. But we don't. Taking nail clippers is ridiculous, like suspending a kid for having a laser pointer. The searches seem designed to humiliate. I have been searched by, among others, Israelis and Japanese. Neither had people undressing in public, and neither was staffed by hostile minorities getting even.

There is in all of this, in so very much of American life today, a vindictive meanness enwrapped in moral pose-in hate-crime laws, in careers deliberately destroyed over imaginary sexual harassment, people destroyed over any trace of racial incorrectness, fathers prevented from seeing their children by vengeful exes and worse courts. Why?

I'll guess that the cause is a confluence of two social currents. First, the United States is an angry, divided, unhappy country, twisted by unresolved conflicts that it refuses to face. Racial tension is ugly, powerful, and a forbidden topic. Women are grindingly angry at men. Men, angry at the divorce laws, avoid marriage. Universal divorce causes deep strains that we don't talk about. Children raised as half-abandoned mall rats turn into angry young adults.

The recently acquired American habit of distributing emoluments by race and sex rather than merit rubs people raw. The decay of the schools into centers of indoctrination angers many. The inability to escape the filth that flows from Hollyork grates. Perhaps more so does the inability in a mass, centrally run, not particularly free society to influence one's surroundings, raise one's children in one's values, or escape ever-deepening regulation.

Repressed anger seeks outlets.

The United States is further, I think, a frightened country, or at least an insecure one. People are afraid of terrorists and crime but more importantly vaguely afraid of a life that isn't satisfactory, yet seems uncontrollable by them. There is a widespread sense that the country is sliding fast toward something undesirable yet hidden in the murk Insecurity breeds both meanness and a desire for control.

The feminization of society plays its part. On average, men prefer freedom to security; women, security to freedom. Women, having climbed into a male world in which they don't seem comfortable, seek laws, laws, laws to control every cause of angst. Men, hemmed in, feel trapped. Much of the tightening control seeks security-helmet laws for kids on bicycles, fear of smoke, seat-belt laws, ever-falling definitions of drunk driving, warning labels stating the universally known, the neurotic fear of laser pointers, the hostility of a female-run school system to competition and rough games beloved of boys.

The astonishing thing in the latter is that women, thought to be nurturing of children, will destroy, will permit the destruction, of boy children by an angry sisterhood in the schools. The instinct of motherhood is perhaps overstated.

The answer? I suggest Cebu, Mexico, or Thailand.

*Greeley Tribune, Jan 8

©Fred Reed 2002
--------------------------------------


Lately, I wonder if it's at all fixable. Fred, BTW, HAS moved to Mexico. Sometimes I think I should join him (and I'm only 1/2 kidding! OK, maybe a third.) Or maybe Singapore...? (Forget chewing gum, twoblick, can you own and carry guns there...?)

Matis

dleong
January 13, 2003, 10:13 AM
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it was William Safire who described Singapore as "Disneyland with the Death Penalty."

Few people smile in Singapore; there is really not much to be happy about there. If you are a tourist, the government will go out of their way to accommodate you, as they want your dollars. But just spend some time talking with the locals, away from the prying eyes and ears of the government, and you will soon discover that the people there are essentially graceless and soulless automatons who have become that way from decades of being told what they can and cannot do by a paternalistic and dictatorial government.

DL

twoblink
January 13, 2003, 11:07 PM
S'pore runs like a computer simulation; and the people in it have set routines..

Thailand is growing as an out of US choice; food is great; people friendly; there's Muay thai; and gun ownership (I think)...

Since the news that I got robbed last night; it served as a great example to my friends in Singapore; regardless; the government can't protect you 24/7; only you can.

I seem to prefer (if I had to choose) the non-vague laws of Singapore to those of the PRK. You are right; at least I _KNOW_ when I've committed a sin in Singapore; in the PRK; you just don't know...

Spore people are not happy; they work; work; work; and live in oppression... The toilets are clean; but the people are unhappy.. Clean toilets don't equal happiness...

They say: the Sigaporeons work for "the 5 C's"
Cash
Credit card
Condo
Car
Career

"Caliber" doesn't seem to be one of the C's.. :D

As a result; nobody is having kids here; and so the Ministry of Fertility (hehehe I just made that up, but I'm sure it actually exists) is trying to encourage families to have kids..

away from the prying eyes and ears of the government And this piece of 2"x2" real estate exists in singapore WHERE??

I'm going shopping (which is pretty much all there is to do in Spore, aside from eating..) and I'm going to keep looking for a local copy of 1984 and/or BNW.. If I am able to find one (which I doubt, sensorship is a national pasttime here) but if/when I do, I will take a picture of me, holding the book, in front of the Raffles statue.. :p

Skunkabilly
January 14, 2003, 12:52 AM
I second the 'at least the Singaporeans know when they're breaking the law'.

Twoblink, your penpal is female, right?

Gabe
January 14, 2003, 01:54 AM
Having been to Singapore a few times myself, I don't agree the locals think they are oppressed. It's a country with different values and circumstances. They are mostly happy with what they got and are not interested in how we think they should live. Several times strangers I talked to on the street ended our converstation with "welcome to Singapore". Pretty friendly and proud of themselves if you ask me.

Keep in mind Singapore is a city-state. Not a big place with countryside, wilderness, diverse regions. I find all city dwellers to act somewhat like automatons. If the United States consisted of solely the city of Washington D.C. I think your impression of the country wouldn't be too high either. Singaporeans didn't strike me as unhappy. They were a lot happier than most city dwellers I've seen. Vast majority of Singaporeans I talked to liked their system, major complaint was the place was too small.

Singapore is a very prosperous city-state. They like things clean and orderly. As for their laws, if you're not in the habit of breaking them, don't worry about it. Singaporeans are most uptight with drug laws. If you get caught with a joint, you just might get a bullet in the head. I was mostly paranoid about someone slipping something into my luggage.

There were quite a few things I was impressed with Singapore:

1. Compassionate Conservatism that actually works. No welfare problem there, only workfare. No lazy homeless bums whinning about lack of handouts.

2. Charity works. Much of the humane institutions are charity, not government driven. Singaporeans are very giving, and you could see a lot of school kids about raising money.

3. Education. Sinaporeans are well educated, even the poor. Kids take school very seriously, you just don't see the teen-pregnancy, drug use, dropout problems like here.

4. Lack of corruption. Most Asian countries are riddled with government corruption. The Singaporean government is very by the book. We have a lot to learn from them in this regard.

5. Military service. Singapore has a pretty good military using universal conscription modeled on the Swiss. I find this gives a great deal of comadery to the citizentry. Perhaps this also explains the heavily regulation based society.

6. Religious tolerance. You literally see churches, mosques, Buddhist temples right next to eachother. These religions are respectful with one another, and you don't have abnoxious evangelists pushing religion either.

There are minuses of course. The government is elitist and seem to think that unless you have a PhD in political science or economics you got no business debating public issues. The average Joe doesn't ever seem to talk about serious issues. The TV airwaves is all about shopping and eating.

I think it's quite interesting Singapore has taken such a different route and that it works for them. I won't want my country like that but different strokes for different folks.

Gabe
January 14, 2003, 01:58 AM
Twoblink,

While you are there ask around for a crab resturant on the waterfront. I forget the name but its well known. Their crab is AMAZING, especially their Peper Pot Crab. Huge monster crabs full of spicy, perfectly cooked meat. :what:

My advice is to bring a lot of your own napkins.

Gabe
January 14, 2003, 02:17 AM
Unfortuantely Singapore forbid gun ownership. But due to their universal conscription they have rather interesting attitude towards guns.

I was watching a children's TV show. The Mr. Rogers like host was talking about school work and so on when he suddently started talking about military insignia and handsignal recognition. Then he brings out an M-16, saying "and now children, this is a weapon that needs no introduction as I'm sure you are familiar with it already."

Completely floored me.

twoblink
January 14, 2003, 08:24 AM
http://web.singnet.com.sg/~gunclub/

There's another link, but I can't find it. There's shooting clubs, but mostly skeet and trap..

Singaporeans are not happy.. not really.. they are not sad, that's regulated...

There is propoganda everywhere.. There are anti-smoking signs on the streets; I mean literally painted on the streets themselves.

As far as it being a clean place; well... 50% of the world's trashcan is in Singapore... There is one every 5 steps; so if you litter; that means you were too lazy to take 3 steps forward or 2 steps back..

compassionate conservatism?? There is a "rush hour tax" and like everything else; government programs keep increasing and increasing; their taxes just kicked up another 2%... They enjoyed a relatively free economy before the heavy hand of tyranny; and so a lot of the goodness of capitalism carried over; but a lot of it didn't.

I was in Little India where one of the guys who noted my "nice camera" told me I'd better be careful; the past few weeks (with the chinese new year approaching) there has been quite a bit of theft in little india; and so even with thefts being a death penalty charge; death has not been as great of a deterant as the government had hoped... And the problem they are having is; if death isn't a deterant, then there isn't anything much harsher then that..

the problem is: it's STILL government charity regardless how you look at it.. The government hires private companies who hire bums to dig a hole, and then fill it back up again... While you don't see bums on the streets (not true, I took quite a few pics of bums on the streets asking for handouts, photoproof!!) I can tell you; there are cameras EVERYWHERE... and there are government reminders of how to behave..

You don't have to think for yourself, the government will do that for you...

twoblink
January 14, 2003, 09:11 AM
This is twoblink's penpal posting.
Hey Gabe, thanks for the compliments. Just thought I would address some of the stuff that you had posted.
Being a Singaporean myself, I've to admit that I DO feel oppressed to a certain extent. It's really big bro's watching your every move. Not that I'm complaining about the living standard here or what the country's gotta offer (Singapore is one of the safest countries to live in, our police's tagline being low crime does'nt mean no crime explains the crime rate pretty much; the most recent kidnap case took place 3-4 years ago and that's the first in the past 30 years or so. go figure!) but I can't help to actually wish for more breathing space most of the time.
Everything's so well-planned for you, it's almost insane. I don't know of any other Government who would actually come up with a dozen or more campaigns for anything and everything. Just to list some of the examples, 1) The courtesy campaign- to educate Singaporeans about politeness and how to be courteous (This being terribly absurd because if courtesy can be simply taught and implemented through classes and campaigns, I surely would not have met so many rude fellow Singaporeans myself). 2) The speak english campaign- to encourage people to speak english. 3) The speak mandarin campaign- an irony. It was set up after the huge success gained from the speak english campaign. Because people were speaking so much english that they have forgotten or had become incapable to speak mandarin. 4) The give birth now so you can enjoy tax rebates campaign- need i say more?

I could go on with more ridiculous stuff but I shan't. Anyhow, I've known of so many disgruntled people who can't wait to leave and I've got so many friends who refused to come back home after completing their education overseas, they stay in the country where they attended college, find a job and settled down there. Life could'nt be better for them in their own words. So why ain't all this prosperity and stability enough for the younger generation? It's really because Singapore is too stifling place to stay in. I for one, can't wait to leave here.
Singapore is a good place to stay in if you don't mind being ever so regulated. Other than that, I can't think of anything else besides its political/finanical stability and the great variety of food.

With regards to Singapore's supposedly successful education system, I've got alot to spill. Not too long ago, there was a film made locally about the education system and it was a box office success, reason being, people were able to relate to the movie so much. The education system is not that great afterall. Too pressurising. Many of our ministers graduated from colleges overseas, if it's that great, why were they overseas anyway? SHRUG.

Nonetheless, there are more that I could write but because I'm tired and I'm getting incoherent, so I guess, til then.
:)

P/S: Read more about the movie here http://www.funkygrad.com/estyle/displayarticle.php?artID=152&subcat=popcorn

dleong
January 14, 2003, 10:36 AM
Just to list some of the examples, 1) The courtesy campaign- to educate Singaporeans about politeness and how to be courteous (This being terribly absurd because if courtesy can be simply taught and implemented through classes and campaigns, I surely would not have met so many rude fellow Singaporeans myself). 2) The speak english campaign- to encourage people to speak english. 3) The speak mandarin campaign- an irony. It was set up after the huge success gained from the speak english campaign. Because people were speaking so much english that they have forgotten or had become incapable to speak mandarin. 4) The give birth now so you can enjoy tax rebates campaign- need i say more?
It is sad and pathetic that the government has to spend tax dollars to implement a campaign to tell its citizens to be courteous. This, more than anything else, speaks volumes about the inherent paucity of social graces amongst Singaporeans.

Among the more ludicrous campaigns of the past: the "Use Your Hands" campaigns from (if I recall correctly) the late seventies, which purported to encourage Singaporeans to be more willing to engage in manual labour.
The education system is not that great afterall. Too pressurising.
Singapore's education system relies almost totally on rote memorization. This is great for spewing out facts and figures, but almost completely cripples any ability on the part of the student to be creative. Ever wondered why this alleged "superior" education system has not produced any world-class practitioners of the fine arts?

Singapore society is a meritocracy that puts a premium on academic achievement, hence the pressure felt by students to excel in school, where the price of underperformance and/or failure can be high: students who succumb to the pressure often develop physiological and/or psychological problems. Or they may seek the ultimate release: a neighbourhood friend who lived across the street was a straight-'A' student all through his primary, secondary and junior college years. He entered the National University of Singapore in the early nineties to study Computer Science, where he got his first-ever 'B' grade in his life. The day after his examination results were announced, he took a lift to the top floor of a block of HDB flats in Redhill, and jumped.
Anyhow, I've known of so many disgruntled people who can't wait to leave and I've got so many friends who refused to come back home after completing their education overseas, they stay in the country where they attended college, find a job and settled down there. Life could'nt be better for them in their own words.
That would essentially describe my situation. When I left Singapore to study in the US, I had every intention of returning. After all, I had been programmed by the Singapore government to believe that Singapore was Paradise on Earth....

Well, it has been well over a decade since my leaving that prison, and I am still here, having taken up permanent residency.

DL

JGReed
January 14, 2003, 06:10 PM
I spent six months in Singapore back in 1995. It was a great place to visit. I was a bit chubby back then so the heat was brutal, but it was the cleanest city I've ever been to and violent crime is almost non-existant. Being just a temporary visitor, all the oppressive regulations just made it a nice place to stay. Other than expensive beer and the lack of Copenhagen (a habit I've since kicked) there was nothing I missed since I don't urinate outside, smuggle drugs, or spraypaint cars. Don't know about all the comments about Singaporeans being unhappy. I was the only expat working at our plant in Jurong and the folks I worked with didn't seem unhappy. Quite the opposite. They seemed pretty proud of their society and their way of life. And if you compare their standard of living to the countries around them, I can see how some would like it.

Living there permanently would have driven me insane of course. I really don't like being told what to do, and that's a way of life in Singapore. The media is gov't censored, they tax goods and services to a level Americans simply wouldn't believe (DL - what do they call the permit you need for a car? Can't remember), they don't consider things like freedom of speech a right, etc etc. So I'd never relocate there permanently. But I'd go back for a visit in a heartbeat.

twoblink
January 16, 2003, 10:13 AM
Singapore is what Sarah Brady wants to turn America into..

STPRMON1
January 16, 2003, 11:54 AM
I read in recent magazine that Singapore Police have placed an order for 10,000 Taurus Model 85's with 3" barrels,Crimson Trace
grips and Safariland holsters. Using them to replace their worn out Smith and Wesson revolvers.

twoblink
January 16, 2003, 07:49 PM
In talking with a Singaporean on the airplane, they said that the police at the airport use to carry only pistols, and now quite a few carry (what looks to be) M16's from what he is describing to me (plastic looking EVIL black gun) and so for all the talk about no guns, they are using guns to send a strong message to people visiting their country...

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