[mikle76]

I have a fair amount of experience with BP rifles and revolvers but exclusively in a target range setting. Shoot a bunch, clean it up and put it away. Do I have to do the same thing after every day afield or could my BP firearm stay loaded with some type of nipple cover (not a cap) to keep out moisture from one weekend to the next? I'm especially interested in taking a revolver along on my hunts in case a deer steps out at "bow range". If I have to discharge the gun every evening and clean it then it requres more patience than it's worth for me but maybe I can find a way around it.

[Jamie C.]

Mikle76, I have a Uberti 1858 clone that I leave capped and loaded for months at a time. So far, it's fired all 6 chambers without fail, every time.

So I would think you could get by leaving your gun loaded for a week or so without problem.

The only thing that might cause you problems is if you use a lubed wad behind the ball. The lube might leech into the powder charge and cause a misfire, over a long enough period of time.

Others will have to comment on that aspect, since I don't use anything but powder and ball/bullet with my gun.



J.C.

[MutinousDoug]

Real black powder is hydroscopic so it absorbs atmospheric H2O. So it depends on the conditions you hunt in. That said, I carry the same charge around in my ML for a few days before I get paranoid and have to pull it or shoot it. If you pull the nipple you can see the condition of the charge and stir the powder up a little bit if it looks "caked".

[Pancho]

Temperature change can be a problem. A cold gun brought indoors can cause moisture problems but this can be overcome buy storing the loaded gun in something like an ammo can with desiccant bags.

[Jamie C.]

Real black powder is hydroscopic so it absorbs atmospheric H2O.

My understanding is that Black Powder is NOT hygroscopic, but the salts that are produced after it's burned are.

Temperature change can be a problem. A cold gun brought indoors can cause moisture problems...

If the chamber is sealed, no moisture can get in. What's there is there, and likely not going to cause problems.

Moisture on the outside of the gun can condense with temp change and cause rust, but that's unlikely to cause a problem for the powder charge if the chamber is sealed.



J.C.

[MutinousDoug]

Black powder is an aggregation of chemicals. The salt left after shooting is the same salt that was there prior to ignition i.e. salt peter. You can safely taste the salt in black powder if you so choose. Additionally, the percussion cap or frizzen on a muzzleloader or cap and ball revolver is by no means an airtight seal.

[scrat]

I tried this recently. i loaded up all 6 cylinders in one of my revolvers. No percussion caps though. it was loaded up with bp, wad roundballs and some lube2000. then i just left it there for a few weeks. i believe i was at almost 3 weeks come friday. Well i took it out on friday capped it. and every cylinder went off not a problem. So its ok with me. Im just a little unsure of the legality of it. When you go to transport it to the range. I believe its ok if its not capped. If its capped then its considered a loaded weapon in your car.

[alsaqr]

"My understanding is that Black Powder is NOT hygroscopic, but the salts that are produced after it's burned are."

Black powder is highly hygroscopic.

[moooose102]

getting back to your original question. you do not have to unload every night. leave it loaded, with the percussion cap off, and leave it in your vehicle, or put it in the garage so condensation does not form. in other words keep it cold. then, for the week in between, you do not have to shoot it to unload it. if you have access to an air compressor. (i have also seen a comercially made device made strictly for this purpose) simply remove the cap, place a rubber tipped air gun nozle on the nipple and squeeze the button. poof, out comes the bullet/wad/powder. do a quick clean and your ready to go again next week.

[Wildfire]

Hey there:
It all depends on the storage conditions. But as a rule No , you would not have to unload it. When you say , Weekend to weekend, Depending on the conditions also. I leave my gun loaded sometimes for 2 weeks or more. When it has not been fired. If it has been fired and you decide to store it for a week at a time, you may find unpleasent results. Storing a cleaned loaded gun should be fine as long as the humidity is down. I bring mine into a heated building after hunting and have never had a problem with moisture because of it. If the gun got wet while hunting, I would unload it and clean it.
As far as powder taking on moisture? They all will . Humidity is a big factor when reloading Cartrige rounds. And is also a consideration for any long distance shooters.

[mykeal]

Wow. Everything from hydroscopic to not hygroscopic to highly hygroscopic. Somebody's got some research to do.

[Wildfire]

Hydroscopic or not wet powder wont hit the target very well.
All the time it is subject to conditions natural or created.
Take care of your powder and it will take care of you.

[Navy joe]

I've left a BP(real BP) revolver loaded and capped for 6 months no problems. I think the bigger danger is not remembering it is loaded when you go to snap a cap on it in your backyard. I don't know about you but I always snap a cap after a cleaning to make sure the nipples are clear. Or you could not remember it was loaded and load it some more!

[mikle76]

A sealed ammo can with dessicant wouldn't be a problem as I already have both on hand. Might be worth a try.
I thought that the lubes made for blackpowder were specifically formulated to not interfere with BP compustion. Correct?
Lots of information and opinions. Thanks guys!

Mike

[Jamie C.]

Black Powder guns have been found that were still loaded after almost 100 years, that fired when they were recapped. So it seems to me that BP can't be too terribly hygroscopic.

There's a thread around here someplace that this stuff is discussed....

Edit: Here's one of 'em: How Long Can I leave My BP Gun Loaded? One Example. (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=292604)



J.C.

[scalper]

I keep my pistol loaded in two big zip-loc baggies tightly sealed and locked in a range bag. I assume this prevents any water in the air from entering the powder. It must, since I have gone as long as 60 days without any problems.

Wasn't there some story about Wild Bill Hickok's loaded cap and ball revolver which still fired like 7 years after his death?

[average_shooter]

I'm not really a BP shooter, so maybe my opinion on this is all but invalid, but so far I haven't seen anyone comment on the legality of transporting a loaded firearm.

It may be alright for the firearm to leave it loaded, but transporting it to and from the field loaded might get you in trouble without appropriate licenses or permits. Maybe the law views BP differently, but I'm not sure I would risk it.

My understanding is that there are cans of compressed air you can buy to blow out a charge without firing it. Might be a good investment.

[scalper]

Average Shooter, depends on the state and the range.

Where I am at, Missouri, no problems transporting loaded weapons and can even be with you in the passenger compartment. No CCW needed. Kind of interesting too, stems from old 'Peaceful Journey' laws. Idea being that one needs to protect themselves on the road as well as at home.

Some ranges don't like you bringing in loaded firearms, but ours is a small group of safe operators, so it is not a problem there either.

[mykeal]

I'm not really a BP shooter, so maybe my opinion on this is all but invalid, but so far I haven't seen anyone comment on the legality of transporting a loaded firearm.

It may be alright for the firearm to leave it loaded, but transporting it to and from the field loaded might get you in trouble without appropriate licenses or permits. Maybe the law views BP differently, but I'm not sure I would risk it.


I'm not familiar with the laws in all states, but most states consider an uncapped muzzleloader to be unloaded. It can still have the powder and ball in the chamber, but as long as there is no primer the firearm is legally and practically unloaded. It can thus be legally transported as an unloaded firearm. Many ranges, mine included, require that a muzzleloader not be capped when not on the firing line, and if a cease fire/cold range is called, the cap must be removed. The gun is then considered safed.

The issue in this thread was whether the powder would remain viable.The primer condition is not a part of that discussion.

[MutinousDoug]

The Colorado Div of Wildlife considers an uncapped muzzleloaded firearm to be unloaded as far as transport is concerned.
Hydroscopy is not a chemical change. There was a reason frontier firearms were stored over the fireplace mantle. Guns whose powder was compromised by atmospheric moisture most often did so via the flash hole. Subsequent drying of the powder over the fireplace restored the powder to it's original state (within reason). Your load may fail you one day and ignite for your beneficiary the next day (or 100 yrs later).

[Pancho]

A side arm during a deerhunt generally is covered with a coat. The sweat you generate while hunting will introduce a lot of moisture to the gun. I've never had any problems storing my loaded pistols in a ammo can with the desiccant packets.

[Jamie C.]

Okay... First off, as much sense as it would make if it were, Hydroscopic or Hydroscopy is not the word/term/condition we're talking about here.

It's Hygroscopic.

hy·gro·scop·ic /ˌhaɪgrəˈskɒpɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hahy-gruh-skop-ik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
absorbing or attracting moisture from the air.
[Origin: 1765–75; hygroscope + -ic]

—Related forms
hy·gro·scop·i·cal·ly, adverb
hy·gro·sco·pic·i·ty /ˌhaɪgrəskoʊˈpɪsɪti/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hahy-gruh-skoh-pis-i-tee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation, noun

And although some folks say black powder is highly hygroscopic, and other say mildly so... it makes no difference, if the container - in this case the chamber - is sealed. The powder can't absorb water that can't get to it.

Yes, I know the caps may not seal the chamber off, especially if they've had to be pinched to stay in place. ( They may do a far better job than you think, if they fit properly. ) However, for a single shot percussion rifle, a lead ball, with a hole slightly smaller than the nipple, bored half way through it and forced down over the nipple, will seal that end of the chamber pretty tight. The ball and/or patch will generally take care of the other end. If you've got a flintlock, the old "waxed quill in the touch hole" trick works pretty well, by all reports.

For a revolver, some variation of the lead ball trick will work, or a piece of aquarium tubing can be used. Just hold the middle of a 2 inch or so piece over a flame, twist and pull as it melts, sealing the ends. Then cut the two sealed pieces to the proper length. Do that three times and you'll have a set of 6 moisture seals for your six-shooter.

Now, probably none of these tricks will hermetically seal your gun's chambers, but they'll most likely work for anything short of a dunk in the local swimming hole.



J.C.

[Mausermike]

The main component of gunpowder that would be the source of the problem is the potassium nitrate (salt petre).

In its raw form, I'd call it mildly hygroscopic just based on the inventory of salts I have sitting in my research labs. It will get slightly caked, but the one's that are really hygroscopic will literally turn into soup if they are not tightly capped and stored in a dessicator.

Mixed with charcoal and sulfur, I cannot comment. It would be easy enough to set out some measured gunpowder samples for exposure and see what happens. You could even fire them, though they would be stirred up which isn't exactly the same as them sitting in a chamber.

This leads me to a question I've been wondering about for some time. How were percussion revolvers handled by civil war troops and cowboys? Were they loaded and forgotten about or were they fired frequently?

I seem to recall reading an account of a famous General (Grant?) carrying a Colt revolver through the entire civil war, unfired, and that years later his sons decided to shoot it and it went "bang x 6".

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Mausermike..That was General Robert E. Lee....
(God bless Bobby Lee)

[Steve499]

If you clean the chambers and nipples thoroughly with rubbing alcohol or lacquer thinner and let it totally evaporate before loading, you have eliminated the foremost culprit of misfires, which is powder contamination from lubricants. When you load a charge into such a chamber there isn't anything in there to affect the powder other than the ambient moisture in the atmosphere at the time of loading. Since we fill the chambers completely full, there's very little atmosphere in there. If you only load powder and bullet you haven't introduced any additional factors into the equation. If you take a lube-free loaded and capped cylinder and drip molten beeswax into the chamber mouths and around the caps, no additional moisture can enter regardless of how much the powder may or may not want to absorb some. A revolver loaded in this way will fire reliably many years later, even if exposed to a little rain now and then.

As mentioned earlier, having a loaded revolver in your vehicle in Missouri is a non-issue, so sealing both ends and carrying it around loaded is fine here.

I've posted about this in the past, so for those who may have seen it already, please bear with me for the benefit of those who haven't.

I have an old Italian replica 1851 Colt, brass frame but in .44 caliber, that I acquired about 1970 or so. It never was very accurate and I stopped using it when I got others which were. Sometime in the late 80s or early 90s, but for sure before 1994, I loaded it as described above. I gave it to one of my daughters a couple of years ago for her to just leave in her car. Hot and cold, high humidity and low. She has fired two chambers so far, one to test shortly after I gave it to her and one a year or so later. Both fired normally with no hangfires. We still have 4 chambers to test at some future date.

I've since loaded my 1858 Remington in that way and carried it in an open holster through an entire deer season and beyond, more than once. It has been rained on lightly. Of course I do my best to keep it dry but there's only so much one can do when you're caught out. Anyway, when I fired it later, every time, all chambers fired like I'd just loaded them a minute before.

This works. It isn't speculation or something I heard about, it's something I have done.

[dogrunner]

I've left my '58 replica and an auxillary cylinder loaded and capped for a full year. Both cylinders fired without incident but I did note some slight corrosion starting in most chambers. Not enough to create cause for concern, but it did break me from ever doing that long a storage again.

Probably someone not living in a humid climate would'nt experience any problem of that nature, but I'm in E/Central Fla.....humidity is very high and temperatures can range from the mid 80s to below freezing in a very short period of time during hunting season. I am quite particular about having a totally clean and oil free firing chamber in any ML piece and perhaps its just a regional issue, but still worth bearing in mind.

Weekend to weekend or even thru an entire season should not create a problem. I loaded that same Remington in Oct. of this past season and just fired the two cylinders in mid-Feb. with no rust noted.

[MutinousDoug]

"Okay... First off, as much sense as it would make if it were, Hydroscopic or Hydroscopy is not the word/term/condition we're talking about here."

Of course, Jamie C is entirely correct and my brain has been asleep.:banghead:

[Omnivore]

It's just not a big deal if the gun is kept reasonably dry. I've stored BP in cans for years and used it with the same results as fresh powder. I've kept a '51 colt loaded in my pickup as a test for several months (hot weather to near zero F) and it still fired all six. You just have to make sure there's not oil and gunk in the nipples or chambers when you load them. Snap some caps, then swab the chambers, and load. A week or two? No sweat if you follow the precautions and keep no gunk between the powder and the ball (just grease over the ball). I've never used plastic bags or desiccants, but we're between the Cascades and the Rockys where it's less humid than, say, the deep South or the coasts. Still, frost on the windows in the morning...

If you fire a revolver, all bets are off-- unload the other chambers and clean, then reload. I'd suggest trying this yourself, outside of hunting season, so you have the personal experience. Load then wait, then fire and see what works. I think you'll find there's not a huge difference between cap & ball and a modern cartridge (which isn't hermetically sealed either in most cases) just follow standard precautions.

[Macmac]

I have kept long flinters loaded better than 90 days in hunting seasons. It gets mighty cold in NH USA too.

When I hunt I don't spit patch, and use a lube made for BP. At the end of a day I dump the prime and insert a feather.

When I get home I leave the gun in the mud room some what warmed than out doors to allow the gun to come up in temp slow, then after a time, I move the gun to a cooler place in the house, before it goes in a warmer place.

Warm things going to cold don't condensate in my expericence, only the other way around. Cold to hot.

I do the same thing with manual 35 mm cameras too.

I don't hunt with any hand guns, as I am not good enough of a shot anymore, and when I did I used brass cased ammo.

So far as I know a BP wheel gun with no caps isn't loaded.... You may have powder and ball in em, but until they are capped they are not legally loaded.

I would want to install something on the nipples to seal them. The longest I ever had one loaded was 2 weeks, and it was capped that whole time.

I have been given charge of 100 year old powder to get rid of a few times before. One whole pound was in a coffee can, and with no lid what so ever!

That can was pretty rusty too, but all that powder was fine.

[Mausermike]

Mausermike..That was General Robert E. Lee....

And my friend from Texas had the nerve to call my Colt 1851 a Yankee gun!

[Jamie C.]

Something that was said that I meant to address, but got sidetracked:

If you pull the nipple you can see the condition of the charge and stir the powder up a little bit if it looks "caked".

If you've properly compressed the load - especially in a revolver - the powder is going to look "caked". It should not look all loose, light, and fluffy after it's had the hell squashed out of it.

The few times I've removed the nipple on a revolver to pull the load, the powder didn't just pour out. It took a bit of poking and scraping with a toothpick or something of the like to get the powder back out. This was due to compression and didn't have anything to do moisture.



J.C.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

I keep one of my revolvers loaded at all times. I change the caps about once a week or maybe 12 days unless I'm in the rain and then I will change them as soon as I'm out of it.
When I change caps I also remove the cylinder and roll it and tap it on all sides against the table top or whatever. This loosen's up the powder and will give you a more clean, even burn when you fire it. Tantamount to tapping your rounds against the stock before loading them into your magazine.
I'vd never shot blackpowder but I have kept Triple Seven [3fff] in my chambers for extended periods of time and I'vd never had a problem. The mouth's of the chambers are sealed with Crisco.
I'vd got a .44 Colt Walker laying right here about 2 feet from me on the sofa, loaded and capped all the way around. 42 grains of Triple Seven [3fff] in each chamber behind .457 swaged round lead balls with #11 percussion caps on the nipples. The caps have been on it for 11 days and the powder has been in the chamber's for around 26, maybe 27 days.
Does anyone think I'm worried about it firing? Go ahead and ask me if I'm worried about it firing.
"Charcoal, are you worried about that Walker firing"?
Hell no I'm not worried about that Walker firing. I know just as sure as I'm sitting here typing this post that if the occasion should arise that Walker will fire when the hammer falls. No question.
When I go to sleep in a little while it will be laying about 6 inches from my head. When I wake up I might have my hand on it with my head resting on that hand as a pillow. That's how I am. Must have been doing something right all these years because by God I'm still alive and I know of other people that's not....

[mykeal]

I see a bit of a problem here.

Real black powder needs to be compressed for proper combustion. If too loose the combustion will be uneven and can lead to detonation; this is the reason we are cautioned to ensure there is no air gap between the powder and the ball when loading.

777 is more sensitive to compression than real black powder. It too needs to be compressed, but with 777 compression can be overdone - if heavily compressed the combustion slows down and velocity and energy drop off. So, with 777 there's a need to use just enough compression to ensure the powder does not contain air gaps but not so much that the powder is caked into a rock. Moderate force on the loading lever or ramrod is the key.

Gentleman of the Carcoal - yes, I'm sure you get ignition every time, but that's not necessarily the key factor. For optimum energy some moderate amount of compression is necessary. If I understand your description correctly, your practice of loosening the powder will have the effect of decreasing energy from the combustion and could, in an extreme case, result in an air gap within the charge.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Mr. MyKeal, I tap the cylinder out of habit.
When I load the chambers the ball is seated firmly onto the powder. Tapping the cylinder is a habit I'vd picked up over the years. It goes all the way back to when I was 17 years old and was shooting the M-14 for qualification at Parris Island. We were instructed to tap our rifle rounds against the stock before loading them into the magazine to help loosen up the powder.
I just alway's do that with my cylinder because it's in me.
I know my caps are still hot when I change them also but it just make's me feel better....
I still appreciate your pointing it out. I place high value on what you say on this site. Whenever there's a question on here I alway's scroll down looking for any post from you concerning the matter before I read anything else. I still remember what you said and the explanation you gave months ago concerning the ability of keeping real blackpowder in the chambers for extended periods of time without damage to the piece. That the real damage only began after the blackpowder was fired. I'll go with you on that sir....