[StrikeFire83]

I was at a Los Angeles gun store the other day, not interested in buying anything as I am heading back to a free state (Texas) within a month’s time, but it’s always fun to check out wares and window shop. Looking at all the modern pistols aimed at the CCW market, it dawned on me that the .25 & 32. ACP seem like generally useless and outmoded calibers in today’s market.

Given the marginal nature of the .25, and the slightly better performance of the .32, I was wondering why anyone would elect to carry a gun in these calibers when my P3AT, the Ruger LCP, the forthcoming Kahr P380 are as small or SMALLER then many of the .32 and even .25 guns. It’s hard to imagine a mode of dress (other than a speedo) where a person couldn’t conceal a P3AT sized weapon.

Given the respectable performance of some .380 self defense loads and the ultra-slim profile of many current generation guns, do any of yall think the smaller and less effective .25 and .32 cartridges have any kind of future?

[DougDubya]

A .25 the same size as the classic Browning Baby, but with a more self-defense appropriate trigger or safety mechanism, would make an excellent 3rd or 4th gun. Or a BUG to one of the teeny .380's.

.25's are also less cranky in the recoil department.

Does Taurus still make those nifty little PT22's? Or is the Walther TPH yet around?

[highlander 5]

I carry a Walther PP in 32 auto on occasion and get laughed at. my response "let me put 3 or 4 hps into your chest and get back to me"
Some people can't manage a "large" pistol or cannot afford a bigger,better gun. An inexpensive 25 or 32 beats no gun at all.
IMHO the 25 auto is the world's most useless cartridge but agian better than nothing.

[putteral]

I agree, I think they are on the way out. Notice not to many new designs in those calibers. Plus not worth reloading.

[StrikeFire83]

I carry a Walther PP in 32 auto on occasion and get laughed at. my response "let me put 3 or 4 hps into your chest and get back to me"
Some people can't manage a "large" pistol or cannot afford a bigger,better gun. An inexpensive 25 or 32 beats no gun at all.
IMHO the 25 auto is the world's most useless cartridge but agian better than nothing.

I make it a point never to be-little anyone who had made the decision to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights. I'm not familiar with the walther PP, but I assume it's heavier then the 10 oz P3AT, which cost me all of $275, which anyone should be able to afford.

I'm sure your Walther is a fine weapon, and these ultra light and thin .380s weren't around even a few years ago, so the game has changed a bit recently.

I was more interested if, going forward, people will elect to purchase a gun in a caliber that is less powerful, weighs the same or MORE, and costs the same or MORE.

[The Lone Haranguer]

I think I would go along with the .25 as obsolete, but would not "toe-tag" the .32 just yet. ;) It has a niche in really tiny guns like the Seecamp or Kel-Tec. WRT those two guns, the .380 Kel-Tec is bigger than the .32 and has no slide stop, while the .380 in the Seecamp is pushing the limits of the design, with each shot being nearly the equivalent of a "proof" load, as well as the .380 version being even more costly and scarce.

[Walkalong]

I agree, I think they are on the way out. Notice not to many new designs in those calibers. Plus not worth reloading.
Hmm.... I carry a .32 quite a bit, and reload for it to practice. :)

I think they are here to stay. They are still to be found new everywhere I go.

I agree with thinking the .25 is almost useless, but it has its followers.

[StrikeFire83]

^ I agree that the .25 is dead in the water as well.

However, I don't quite get what you're saying about the seecamp and kel-tec guns. I've never fired a .32, but the recoil on my P3AT is pretty minimal. I find firing .357s out of my SP-01 more uncomfortable. The .32 kel-tec is functionally identical in size to the P3AT, and i know the Seecamps are all the same size.

http://www.gunblast.com/images/KelTec380/MVC-002F.jpg

But in your experiences are the .32 seecamps more reliable then the .380 variety?

[Cosmoline]

.25 ACP is moribund. There are some micro semis chambered for it but the .22 LR versions seem to do better.

.32 ACP is still around and chambered in too many handguns to go away anytime soon. The round itself is of an odd semi-rimmed design and it's far from perfect, but it won't be gone in my lifetime. Yes there are a large number of popular pocket semis in .380, 9x18 and even 9x19, but I'm not aware of any of them that can use the same very small frame size the .32 ACP can use. The .32 is a very low pressure round and doesn't need much steel, so it can be housed in extremely compact firearms more easily than the larger rounds.

I carry a Walther PP in 32 auto on occasion and get laughed at.


I used to carry one of those. Fantastic firearm. It was actually a pleasure to carry it, it was so compact and easy to deal with. As far as the small round, it's a fair cop. But I'll tell you I was like a trick shooter with that thing I could fire it so fast. Nothing to laugh at, for certain.

[berkbw]

If it will kill, it's not obsolete, even if it is a hammer! .25/.32 WILL kill. just stock up on ammo, as it will be expensive.

Handgun efficiency is like real estate. Location, Location, Location. eh?
b-

[TheReeves]

I don't carry my Walther PP, but I do love the gun in .32. Getting extremely hard to find ammo around here though.

[Pigspitter]

25ACP: yes
32ACP: Hell no.
Imagine having somebody empty a Walther PP's mag in you. The first couple shots might not kill you, but don't expect it to be sunshine and lolly pops.

[Old Fuff]

Well the cartridge companies sell an awful lot of .25 & .32 ACP as well as .32 S&W. .32 S&W Long, and .38 S&W to folks that don’t know it’s obsolete… Regardless of what the current gun manufacturers do, there are a lot of guns out there that someone will want to feed. Those outdated (?) rounds will be around as long as they’re selling.

There is a big difference between the general public and members of this forum, so far as choice in handguns are concerned. All those S&W top-breaks (and clones thereof) or Colt pocket automatics didn’t die and go to heaven, even if the original owners have.

I won’t mention World War Two bring-backs….

[searcher451]

Ammo prices might well be the ultimate decider on the issue. I spent a tad over $37 this weekend on 100 rounds of Winchester white box .32 FMJ from WallyWorld and took a LNIB Interarms PPK to the range for a workout. The gun performed flawlessly and was as accurate as my hand and aim allowed. All in all, it was a heck of a fine day in the spring. But I can get 100 rounds of 9mm Winchester white box FMJ from the same WallyWorld for a tad over $18 -- and during the course of the year, that double-the-price for .32 caliber adds up.

There's no question that the .32 is an honorable round; and no, as Highlander accurately notes, you would not want to stand still while someone -- anyone -- popped a few rounds into your chest. Police departments around the world, including here at home, used the round successfully for many years.

[MCgunner]

The only real virtue of the .25 is that it feeds and fires much more reliably in a small auto than does the .22 LR. What with little guns like the LCP and P3AT around now days, I see little use for the .25 or the .32, frankly.

[sm]

Old Fuff wrote:

There is a big difference between the general public and members of this forum, so far as choice in handguns are concerned.

Well stated and I totally agree!

[Muddflap]

I's hate to think my .32 Seecamp was a paperweight.

[mljdeckard]

.25 is TECHNICALLY better than no gun at all. If my only option was a .25, I would empty it into the attacker as I charged them with it, prepared to beat them with it.

When you shoot someone wearing thick clothes at a range of more than 20 inches, the response you get from them should not be; "OWW!! That's going to leave a welt!!"

[10-Ring]

i've had my false sense of security for a while now (25 cal Beretta)-- and for most days, it makes for a great little companion...I just hope I never need to test its ability to stop a BG.

[misterwhipple]

For as long as you enjoy shooting it, it will never be obsolete, just hard to find.

[jaydubya]

With ammunition prices doubling every two or so years, this issue will settle itself. .25 and .32 ACP is already shockingly expensive for marginal rounds. There is a .32 ACP Colt Pocket Model for sale locally, 30% finish remaining, original stocks. They want $475 for it. It's been in the case for a month now, and I expect it will be there when I go to the range next week.

I bought the "upgrade" version, a 1908 .380, for my wife as a surrogate husband while I was away on cruise during Vietnam. She defended home and hearth with it and is ready to do so again. Good gun, but despite its name, I would not carry it in my pocket.

Cordially, Jack

[RyanM]

Don't know. A Seecamp 380 is basically the same size and weight as a Baby Browning. However, if the same engineering standards were applied to the .32 and .25, how small would they end up?

[searcher451]

Or is the Walther TPH yet around?

To answer DougDubya's question, the Interarms version of the Walther TPH can be found on Gunsamerica or Gunbroker, mainly in .22 caliber, in the $500+ range. They are notoriously unreliable. The German-made Walther is reliable, on the other hand, but be prepared to spend upwards of $1,200 to $1,500 to get one ... certainly not the answer that anyone is looking for here.

[Onmilo]

Obsolete, no.
Obsolecent, yes.

In countries that limit civilian available calibers, the .32 and .25 are still common.

In military and police applications the .25 and .32 and for the most part, the .380 have been replaced by small frame 9mm Parabellum and .40 S&W caliber pistols.

[mavracer]

try to keep your kel-tec minute of eyeball and get back to me.this is 7 yards with fiocchi 60 grn SJHP that chrono 1200+ fps for just over 200 ft.lb. of energy. http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/mavracer/P3230076.jpg

[MetalMan52]

When I was teaching my kids to shoot. A CZ50 in .32 ACP was the second pistol they shot. It was a good caliber to move them from a .22 up to a centerfire. It's a good choice to keep them from developing a "flinch" by moving to too big of a caliber too soon. My daughters still like to shoot them to this day. I don't know how my son will be when he returns from Iraq. The last time he was home, he was "bored" at the range, no burst or full auto fire. He also went through the .32 when he was younger.
One other area is if you collect WWII German sidearms. The .32 was a common caliber for officers and air/armor crews.
Pat

[Eb1]

Mavracer,
I can do the same with my Taurus 32 H&R magnum stubby. I don't think that the .32 is dead. Good shooting.

My dad carries a .25. I would not want to be on the receiving end of the .25.

[MachIVshooter]

While I don't actually carry anything smaller than .380, I do have a soft spot for the little guys. While it is true that guns like the P3AT has made many .25's and .32's impractical, there are still some truly diminutive critters that have their place.

P-32 and a Bauer .25 (Baby browning copy)

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n117/Hunter2506/P32Bauer25-1.jpg

[StrikeFire83]

try to keep your kel-tec minute of eyeball and get back to me.this is 7 yards with fiocchi 60 grn SJHP that chrono 1200+ fps for just over 200 ft.lb. of energy.

Certainly some good shooting. You're right, I'm not that good with my Kel-Tec. But I'm pretty combat accurate with it. And I'm nearly as good are you are with my Kahr-K9, which is a similar sized weapon to that in a more powerful caliber, 9mm. I guess I just believe in carrying the most powerful round a particular size of weapon can reliably take.

That being said I wouldn't dare stand on the business end of you and that weapon.

[mavracer]

Certainly some good shooting. You're right, I'm not that good with my Kel-Tec. But I'm pretty combat accurate with it. And I'm nearly as good are you are with my Kahr-K9, which is a similar sized weapon to that in a more powerful caliber, 9mm. I guess I just believe in carrying the most powerful round a particular size of weapon can reliably take.
I usually carry somthing more powerful too (M&P 340) but I don't by any means feal under gunned with my walther and IMHO for Self-Defense pourposes there is little difference between .380 and .32 acp.

[DougDubya]

That's the one thing pointed out -

A Walther PP in .32 ACP has plenty of COMFORTABLE grip, would need to be hung on someone with full body arthrisis to be "too heavy and painful to carry, and recoils like a flea's sneeze.

Sure, the Kahr Mk40 has six rounds of .45 ACP-weight bullets (180-grains) and is technically smaller and flatter than the Walther PP, and the MP340 in .357 Magnum puts the PP in the dust power wise.

But barring Walther bite, the PP is going to be much gentler to your hand, engendering much more shooting and practice than either of those hand-smashers.

[Prince Yamato]

One area that seems to be overlooked is for residents of cities. If you live in a high-rise, something like 44 mag may be overkill. I was speculating with an FFL once as to why all the European police pistols were of such "small" caliber. I came up with fact that most European cities are (or were prior to WW2) tightly packed and that a large caliber weapon would prove unwieldy in an apartment complex built in the 18th century. Moreover, over-penetration is a definite risk when your walls are two centuries old. In short, I think that a lighter caliber weapon still has its place. If you spend most of your time indoors and milling about town. Who knows, maybe after Heller goes our way and someone sues NYC, there will be a resurgence in small caliber pistols.

[Old Fuff]

If you spend most of your time indoors and milling about town. Who knows, maybe after Heller goes our way and someone sues NYC, there will be a resurgence in small caliber pistols.

Actually they never went out of favor, except with gunnies. Ammunition sales remain strong for the older pocket automatics and revolvers. In the overall picture we are a minority.

[Phil DeGraves]

".25 ACP is moribund. There are some micro semis chambered for it but the .22 LR versions seem to do better."

I used to feel that way too, until I shot a Beretta 950 Jetfire .22 and a .25 side by side.
The magazine capacity and reliability and accuracy was vastly better with the .25.
Now, none of those are serious defensive pistols but they are better than nothing especially for those small framed inexperienced non-shooters (like your grandmother) that feel better having one in their nightstand or purse.

[MCgunner]

Nice target, Mavracer. That's about as accurate as my P11 with which I routinely clear 6" plates off hand at 25 yards. It's lighter, smaller, more powerful, higher firepower, than that .32, but other than that.....:neener:

It is 3.5" at 25 yards accurate off a rest. Whatever floats your boat, but the compact 9s are making stuff like PPs and PPKs obsolete or "obsolescent" IMHO. Why should I tote a .380 or .32 in a bigger, heavier, harder to hide gun when you can have 9x19 +P in a tidier package? I guess if you just like the PP platform and you don't like the various Kahrs, Kel Tecs, Taurus Millenniums, Rohrbaughs, etc, that's the only reasoning I can think of. I'm with StrikerFire83 on this one.

I'm thinking I don't need a Bauer baby .25. My NAA mini .22 is smaller and probably more accurate. LOL!

[DrLaw]

While there are a number of .32 and .380 shooters out there, from the numbers of .25 guns that have been made in this century, I have a feeling that the vast number are just sitting there, sleeping.

There was a time when people carried concealed weapons. The .25 was a vest pocket gun, something that fit into a vest, pants pocket or purse, and were about as noticable as cell phones are today.

I have the feeling that many of those once carried guns are idling away their time in nightstands, attics, dresser drawers and other spots in many homes, waiting for a call for action or just plain forgotten. It is just one of those guns that does not get practiced with. I bet we all know people who have guns in their home who do not use them.

Bottom line, I don't think the .25 is obsolete yet, just resting.

The Doc is out now. :cool:

[Farnorthdan]

I own numerous Walther's and the pp .32acp/7.65mm is one of my favorites, recoil is low and the gun is very accurate. I also own a model 5 in .25acp, this is just one of the coolest guns I've ever seen or owned. Looks like a Walther fresh from the womb its just so cute, makes you want to hold it, I wouldn't carry it for protection though, not because of its effectiveness but because its a collector in pristine condition....hell I carry a .22mag as a bug and am OK with that. My primary is never smaller than my S&W 342 in 38spl.

[dagger dog]

There was a time in the not so distant past the a gentleman would never think of leaving the house, with out his pocket pistol be it a .25 cal Baby Browning,Colt, or the Walther PP, in .32 ACP. These pistols more or less made up the finishing touches of his attire , along with the pocket knife. Both were gennerally finley crafted, and were a badge of his coming of age.
Nowdays , athletic shoes, designer jeans, baseball caps, have to have the correct firearm to go along with these times and dress, black plastic pistols,black daggers etc. , of course nothing less than 9mm can cut it.

Give me the blued steel walnut stocked .25 .32 ACP, with a Boker any day!

[usp9]

Or is the Walther TPH yet around?

To answer DougDubya's question, the Interarms version of the Walther TPH can be found on Gunsamerica or Gunbroker, mainly in .22 caliber, in the $500+ range. They are notoriously unreliable.

Unreliable? I think by my experience and from what I've read the TPH is as reliable as any .22lr. I'd carry it before I'd carry a Keltec. A .25 caliber TPH is the holy grail I seek for my collection, priced out of my range because of demand. Go figure. What little .22/ .25 could be produced today for the prices a TPH commands?

These two rounds will be around as long as people carry little guns, and many people do in fact carry little guns.

[Timthinker]

I have often thought it would be interesting to have a Ruger 10/22 rifle modified to fire .25 ACP rounds. Impractical? Yes. But I suspect a "hot" .25 round would prove superior to the .22 long rifle in this particular platform. I also like the idea of a .32 ACP semi-auto rifle. Again, I realize the impracticality of this idea, but it would improve the performance of those rounds somewhat. Consider this food for thought.


Timthinker

[MCgunner]

Interesting thought, but I think you'd have to handload the .25 with a slower powder in a 10/22 to get much out of it. I don't KNOW that, but I do know .25 is intended for very short barrel pistols and it stands to reason they'd use something on the order of PB or Red Dot to load it. And, while I handload for .380, my fingers ain't small enough for .25ACP, LOL! .380 is bad enough!

All in all, if I want more than .22, I'll take my Remington 597 magnum in .22 mag out of the safe. :D I can see no advantage in .25 over .22LR in the 10/22. If you did handload it, you'd have to chase brass (you think finding .380 in the grass is tough?) and if you didn't handload it, it'd cost you out the waz for no ballistic gain over the good ol' .22. Maybe a .25 in a necked down .32 case? Didn't NAA do that? They did it with the .32 in a .380 case, I know. Or, heck, you could neck the .380 down to .25. ROFL Be about as useful as the .17s, which do seem to be popular, though. Who knows how any of that would go over in the market? Me, I'll just go with .22 hornet before I'd neck anything down.

[Timthinker]

MC, thanks for the complement about the idea. As I mentioned earlier, this idea is impractical, but it might prove interesting. I believe that a "hot" .25 ACP cartridge could be developed that would prove superior to the .22 long rifle round in a 10/22 platform. Again, this is more of a "thought experiment" than a pragmatic rifle design. After all, the .22 Magnum, revamped 5mm Remington Magnum and .22 Hornet exist for those wishing more power than the .22 long rifle cartridge provides. Yet, this idea struck me as an interesting use for the old .25. Believe it or not, I am not the only person to contemplate new uses for that round. This thread seemed like an appropriate place to share that notion. Thanks again.


Timthinker

[MCgunner]

Well, if you ever do it, report on it here in the rifle forum 'cause I think it'd make for an interesting read if nothing else. LOL Ain't doin' it to mine, but I would enjoy hearing about it. Might be some machine work to get the bolt right and the firing pin position. The barrel would be the easy part. Magazine? Well, I don't know about that one.

[MICHAEL T]

I keep a few 32's around and still have several 25's in my collection. A Beretta 950 Jetfire is a nice pocket pistol and 9 rounds of 25 will hurt . 16+inches in Jell test Beat FBI 12 inch min.
Lot of people dead from 25 and more every year. I get tired of the my buddy knows or my uncle told me stores. How about a 1st hand I was shot by a 25 and it didn't hurt or my T shirt stopped it Never see any real 1st hand happened to me accounts . Proof required

[unspellable]

I view the 32 as still viable and for me it's the absolute minimum in a carry round when deep concealment is a big issue. It has enough steam to make hollow points worth the effort.

The 25 on the other hand has only one advantage, it has more reliable ignition than a 22 LR. But this is offset by the unreliability of many of the guns it's chambered in.

[MCgunner]

The 25 on the other hand has only one advantage, it has more reliable ignition than a 22 LR. But this is offset by the unreliability of many of the guns it's chambered in.

In my experience, the .25 also feeds a lot more trouble free in small autos. .22LR was not designed with feeding in pocket pistols, autos for that matter, in mind. Between .22 and .25 in an auto, I feel much better about the .25 for these reasons. But, I still don't like carrying anything that weak when I can full well carry my 9x19 as easily. If attire (hardly ever) requires it, I have a .22 NAA mini, better than nothing. And, I plan to get either a P3AT or LCP in .380 to give me a medium option between the NAA an 9. However, it's a .380.

[JERRY]

while the kt p32 is a better caliber gun than a beretta 950 .25acp, it kicks a lot more by comparison to an elderly lady, is harder to charge the chamber, and has a stiffer/longer trigger pull, all of those are not very conducive to an artheritic hand.


the beretta model 950 .25acp is just fine for that old lady, and 8 rounds of centerfire 50gr. fmj is better than nothing.

it must suck to be old, so i wont discount something that works for those like her.

[jackstinson]

Hey....I love my old Beretta 950B! :)
The .25acp and the .32acp aren't going away no matter what a folks here think. My favorite local shop has a case full of .25 and .32 pocket guns always and they sell them like hotcakes. There are a lot of people who own and shoot .25 and .32 pocket guns. The ammo makers sell a ton of it as well.
Never buy .25acp or .32acp from WalMart. I buy all mine online for about 1/2 to 2/3 the price shipped to my front door. Other countries use a lot of .25acp and .32acp due to various local restrictions. So I prefer foreign made .25acp to Winchester. My preference is toward Aquila and S&B in .25acp and S&B in .32acp. Places like Natchez have good prices and fast delivery.
I shoot a lot of .25's and .32's. Heck, I even load a .25 caliber pellet into primed brass with no powder and shoot my .25acp autos in the basement (single shot).
Yes, I usually carry a .380 or a 9mm, but sometimes .25 or .32 also or instead of.
Jack

[Hokkmike]

Obselescent, is that the term?

[jackstinson]

Obselescent, is that the term?

per Merriam-Webster's:
ob·so·les·cent ... Function: adjective .... Date: 1755
: going out of use : becoming obsolete
As in; ".25acp and .32acp cartridges are not obsolescent." :)

[icanthitabarn]

{{quote}- les·cent It was almost $20 on a shelf, for .25acp