[ColinthePilot]

So, A friend of mine is in the market for a shotgun. He wants a good all purpose gun that he can use for skeet, maybe some hunting someday, and home defense. We went to Bass Pro Shop today to look around cuz he has a gift card there, and I'm the gun-guy.
Anyway, he mentioned that for HD he would load the first shell with salt. I asked him why. He cited a case where a drugged up moron stumbled into his appartment thinking it was his dealer (who lived next door). He threw the guy out, told his neighbors that the next time a "client" came to his house, he was callin the cops, and it never happened again. But he didn't think the guy deserved to die, so he would load the first shell with salt to "scare them off."
I gave him my opinion that any person worth shooting is worth killing, and that shooting a guy with a non-lethal load is a great way to earn a lawsuit. He still thinks its a good idea.
I've seen the Box-o-Truth page on this topic, but he still seems set on loading up at least the first shell with salt. What do I have to tell him to convince him this is a stupid idea?

[M2 Carbine]

What do I have to tell him to convince him this is a stupid idea?

Tell him that anything coming out of a shotgun at close range will qualify as deadly force and if he isn't in the right using deadly force he will probably end up in jail or getting his ass sued off, or both.
There's nothing in Texas law making it legal to shoot to wound.

If he is in the right using deadly force, than he had better be using something more effective than rock salt.

[CWL]

I think that the days of chasing troublesome kids outta the watermelon patch with rocksalt are long gone. Touching off any kind of round (even in Texas) would be considered deadly force.

If legal logic doesn't work on your friend, try another approach, -tell him how corrosive salt is to metal.

[sourdough44]

Dumb idea, tell him I said forget about the rock salt.

[dstorm1911]

take him out to where ya go shooting, take a few 12 ga. rocksalt loads and some creative "targets" (watermelons are good and ya can eat em presalted after the demo) set the target up on something about chest high, get 10 yards back and fire........... nothing bout rocksalt is non lethal unless he can fire from 40 yards in his apt...... inside of 25 its fatal shot........ and considering that in Texas your not even allowed to show the gun unless your in danger........ actually firing it is an instant felony conviction regardless what its loaded with

[Wetawd]

HAHA not at all true. My step grandfather's step father ( read it again then you'll get it) had a cow that kept getting into their garden so he called his neighbor asking him to move his cow. Well the neighbor didn't come so he loaded his 12 gauge side by side with ROCK SALT and pulled both triggers. The way he tells the story they were eating a lot of milk cow beef for long time.:)

Use bean bags or some of the other mostly "non lethal" rounds, rock salt is lethal. Ever since he told me the story I've wanted to try it.:evil:

But to your original question on how to convince him... just get a cow in his apartment, or shoot him in the thigh. jk But I agree if your going to shoot someone it should be with deadly force or not at all. Otherwise you might as well just wear a sign around your neck saying "sue me". Tell him to hit the guy with a broom or something.

[bensdad]

You're the "gun guy," yet he believes the rock salt stories above your wisdom?

First off, I'd be done helping. Let him pick out his own gun. He doesn't need your help. Let him go to his own range and practice - he won't. Let him ask someone else what loads to put in AFTER the rock salt. I'd leave the gun subject with one last attempt:

"I'm not gonna whip this horse. I'll tell you one last time, then I'm done. The rock salt thing is an old wive's tale. It goes in the same shoebox as dying for real if you die in your sleep and water that a horse will drink being safe for people. The fact that you won't believe evidence tells me that you aren't really ready to take gun ownership seriously. I'm done helping you on this endeavor, but I hope we're still friends."

ETA: Wow! I just read the other posts. There are actually people who still believe the rock salt thing, and they live among us! Guys, at 10 yds. only a couple of chunks broke the surface of a piece of cardboard. At 12 feet, 90 % of the rock salt bounced off the cardboard.

Rock salt does not have enough density to be of any value as a defensive payload. I'm sure it lacks sufficient... cohesion? as well. Whatever. Rock salt can't even hurt a BG until he's close enough to grab the barrel.

[Fred Fuller]

Interesting theory.

There's this two-bit word running around out there. It's HYGROSCOPIC (also, hydroscopic). What does it mean?

====================
http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/hygroscopic.html

Definition

A hygroscopic material (literally "water seeking") is one that readily absorbs water (usually from the atmosphere).
====================

OK, that said, now let's take a look at good old "When it rains it pours" Morton salt to see why that became the company slogan.

=========================
http://www.tvacres.com/admascots_morton.htm

"...salt was sold in bags which tended to become hard and lumpy due to salt's hydroscopic properties."
=========================

OK, so you load rock salt into a shotgun shell- how are you going to know for sure what's coming OUT when you pull the trigger on it? Could be the salt equivalent of a slug.

If you like to gamble, tempt fate, etc., by all means feel free. It's your assets on the line, not mine.

But you'd better hope I'm not on your jury...

lpl/nc

[Deanimator]

If somebody's not a great enough danger to kill, they're not a great enough danger to shoot, PERIOD.

Lethal force is lethal force. Shooting somebody with a projectile out of a firearm is lethal force.

Get pepper spray. Get a taser. Don't shoot somebody with a firearm unless you're willing to see them dead right there.

I've got not the slightest problem with shooting somebody with a firearm, if it's NECESSARY. If you thought you could get by with wounding them, or with some hare brained improvisation, you clearly didn't believe it was necessary. And that's exactly what a jury is going to think.

[okiewita40]

Just my two cents worth. If one pulls the trigger on a shotgun in a home defense situation, then it had better be with deadly force with a regular round of some sort. Be it bird shot, buckshot or slug. For me inside the house it is 00 Buck. If I use all 5 rounds of that then it is time for the slugs to come into play. I just hope it never comes to that at all.

Tell your friend to leave the rock salt for making ice cream.:D

[Snarlingiron]

There are people that simply can't justify in their own mind the act of using deadly force in self defense, and the fact that the end result could be someone's death. I have some of those folks working in my office. I tell them that they should come up with some strategy for defending themselves other than a firearm. If you aren't willing to accept that deadly force means deadly force i.e. someone's possible death, then a firearm is a very bad choice for you. When you should and shouldn't use it becomes a very difficult thing to define.

[rocinante]

So what is it, rock salt is lethal or can't damage cardboard?

In Kill Bill that chick took a double dose of rock salt to the boobs from a SxS at ten feet and it took the wind out of her sails. Never bring a samurai sword to a gun fight. Just HOLLYWOOD?

[Indifferent]

how about 1 blank?
i kinda like that idea, but i won't do it, #4 and thats that.

[John4me05]

Why not just take the shot out of the first round and leave the wad... May cut em up a bit but shouldnt be lethal...

[MudPuppy]

Plain and simple, you shoot a gun at someone it's gotta' be because you think you're life is in danger.

By loading it up "less than lethal" you've demonstrated that you didn't believe your live was in danger and now you're a criminal too.

Shooting someone with rock salt is going to be more trouble than not shooting them at all. Just give him all your valuables now because he's going to sue your @#$ off anyway.

[rgs1975]

Sounds like Mythbusters needs to do an episode on rock salt shotgun blasts. lol

[revjen45]

"There's nothing in Texas law making it legal to shoot to wound."
Yup. And shooting to wound can used as evidence against you that by shooting to wound you were acknowledging that lethal force was not justified. The 1st round out of my pump 12 is 3" Mag #000.

[sm]

What do I have to tell him to convince him this is a stupid idea?

Nothing.

Walk away from him, in time he will ask why you are keeping your distance from him.

Be honest, inform him you do not need or want to be involved in any court cases and especially a party to his.
Your responsibility is to yourself first, and in a court of law, you do not need a jury of peers asking why you assisted this person in choosing a shotgun , and the reply being " I am the gun guy" and you getting hammered by jury and all the legal process.

[Vonderek]

Tell your friend that if he shoots a crackhead with rock salt to "scare him off" and wounds him that he will end up being sued by said crackhead for medical bills and pain and suffering. If he hits the crackhead in the eye or somehow otherwise permanently disables him that he'll end up making payments to him for the rest of his life.

[rklessdriver]

Didn't the "BOX OF TRUTH" guy try this?
Will

[The Lone Haranguer]

If the situation justified firing at all, it justified firing with lethal ammunition. If you're not in danger, don't fire! There is just no "in-between" here.

Could it not go worse for you if it were found you were trying to maim, inflict pain or even torture?

[Big Boomer]

No to the rock salt, however, blanks could be fun!

[MTS Cop]

I don't want to kill the guy, so I'll shoot at him with a shotgun. This guy sounds brilliant.

[Blarelli]

This remind me of that Pastor that shot himself in the head with a blank to prove some biblical purpose, but just ended up proving that blanks will do tons of damage at a couple of inches.

[Brian Dale]

...however, blanks could be fun!Tell Jon-Erik Hexum.

Oh, you can't. He's dead.

Don't mess around with this stuff, people.

[john917v]

I would use some nonlethal rounds for STRICTLY PLINKING in the field. To defend my family and home, you won't find anything other than buckshot, or a 3" #4-5 turkey shells in my duckgun. It's either me, or the burglar that is going to survive, I intend on being the survivor, I am the one who is supposed to be in the house, anyway.
Make him see that if he uses rocksalt, and it wounds the guy or pisses him off (crooks can wear armor, and usually bring weapons), your friend is toast. Then, with your friend out of the way, the rest of his family is set up as the crooks prey, all thanks to your friend. Then, Mr. Scumbag is free to terrorize the rest of the town, because you friend let live.

[brighamr]

Tell your friend to buy a fully automatic paint ball gun. It will do what he's looking for (non lethal, scary), and he'll learn quickly why guns are only to be used in life threatening situations.

[Fozzy_Bear]

As said above: this sounds like a job for pepper spray.

right tool for the right job. ... and a shottie isn't the right tool for "warning shots"

[Nugilum]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned rubber buckshot.

I live in an apartment complex, with my wife and four year old son. I have the rubber buckshot in the magazine tube, and 00-buck on the external receiver shell holder. I have the rubber buckshot for overall safety, but I can load the 00-buck quickly (and I have practiced) if the individual is dumb enough to stick around after he's been shot at.

[Fozzy_Bear]

""...surprised no one has mentioned rubber buckshot...""

Actually, my post right above yours addresses that issue.

WhatEVER technology you are using to turn your shotgun into a warning device is a bad idea, IMHO.


- Or, are you specifically using it only for the lack of penetration? (you mentioend an appartment)

[cleardiddion]

I don't think rubber buckshot in apartment distances could really be considered a non-leathal/warning device. As far as I know it's supposed to be pretty lethal at ranges up to something like 30m.

[Nugilum]

Well it seems like the best idea I can come up with so I don't end up shooting my wife, son, or next door neighbors. I'm not skiddish about shooting someone, just trying to minimize collateral damage.

100th Post! Finally a Senior member! (yea I know, whoopty do)

[Floppy_D]

Airhorn. Have you lit off an airhorn indoors? It's HARDLY non-lethal. +1 pepperspray.

[Bartkowski]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot33.htm

Rock salt was found to be useless unless at 4 feet and even then it doesn't do much.

[huckster]

"I gave him my opinion that any person worth shooting is worth killing"


That's the critical point right there. The problem is that some folks think guns are for scaring, or intimidation. They're not.

[rcmodel]

If it goes bang, and smells like gunpowder, it is a lethel weapon used in a shooting in the eyes of the law.

Rock salt is best used to melt ice off your driveway.

rcmodel

[Coronach]

Assuming he's trying to use this as a hillbilly less-lethal load, for instances where lethal force is not an option...

Tell him you asked a cop, and you were informed that he would be charged with aggravated assault (or felonious assault, depending on your jurisdiction) if he does this, that he will be convicted based on the facts, probably do jail time, and certainly lose his guns.

Unless, of course, he has justification to use deadly force. THEN, he will merely be ensuring the survival of the guy who will, at best, later try to sue him for everything he's worth, or, at worst, be doing his level best to send some deadly force right back at him.

Mike

[sm]

Folks,

Stopping the threat begins multiple stages before one gets to the stage where a firearm and loadings for a firearm becomes part of the tool of the toolbox.

There is no one tool in that toolbox, or shouldn't be just one tool in that toolbox.

Because in a court of law one will hear over and over again - What a prudent person would do in such a situation.

Jury of one's peers does not mean all 12 persons on that jury and alternates will be exactly like you.

Once a trigger is tripped, one cannot call "do overs", one will have to live the rest of their life, with the consequences of what happened, when that trigger tripped , no matter what kind of firearm , no matter what kind of loading.

One might survive, one might be found not guilty, still this comes with a huge price tag, and not just a monetary one.
One may still be subject to civil penalties , and again these have huge price tags , and not just monetary ones.

Employers may choose to not need the services of a employee with all the Public Relations.
Relationships get strained, and with the loss of job, and nobody else wanting the PR , there goes the insurance, and the kid/kids need insurance.
So the spouses divorce, perhaps distancing from each other will allow the wife to get a job, with health insurance and benefits for her and the kids...

Atta-boys and free beer do not make mortgage payments, car payments, credit card payments...
In time, the free beer, pack of smokes and atta-boys are only a memory.


Prevention.
Don't go where trouble is.
Evade when trouble show up
Deal with trouble effectively to stop that threat.


Get motion detectors, better locks, alarm systems, cameras, clean up the yard and do not look like easy prey.

Get training, and lessons, with the family, and geared to include the youngest/smallest/least physically able.

Practice these plans, put into motion using the cameras, intercoms, and codewords used to communicate.

Just like "Stop" "Drop" "Roll" there should be practiced things for everyone to do in situations.

Get that sheet of Steel, put in that wall, That good used toy chest filled with brick and sand, and show that child to Stop, Drop, Roll behind that cover if child cannot get to parents or vice versa.

Arrange Furniture to Protect, screw the interior decorating idea of the week, that bookcase goes "there" to provide cover and the Buffet in the dining room is a backstop to stop your projectiles.
Zones of Fire, Paths of Cover, Avenues of Survival.

Air horns, pay as go cell phones, , emergency lighting, ...

When these things are done, find a good used pump shotgun for less than $150 - if that is what has been determined for you from lessons and training, and then get the 5 packs and pattern.
Continue lessons on that shotgun until it is a body part.

Screw this $1200 tactical shotgun BS with expensive ammo until one gets educated and trained.

One may find out in assessment and training for their environment and setting that the Good Used .38spl revolver, kept on person, by both husband, and wife, is the best defensive tool for that abode.

Handguns for both husband and wife, worn about the home, CCW, entering and leaving the home, and answering the door means the ability to have a tool.

A couple of good used revolvers lets say $600 tops, they ain't gotta be pretty, just internally pristine, fit and work.

One cannot sling a long gun out and about, and what if the alarm is turned off as you enter and trouble shows up?
A lot of damn good that shotgun inside is going to do you.

What a prudent person would do in this situation.

Jury is going to hear about and see pictures of the dogs, motion lights, alarm, well maintained yard and property, certifications of taking home safety classes, the kids going to the fire station and learning about safety and...

Better hope like hell Lady Luck is in court that day too, because what you really want to hear is.

"They did everything a prudent person would do in that situation and being in fear of life they had to shoot to stop a threat - Not Guilty!"

[Fozzy_Bear]

SM,
well said.

rcmodel,
I mostly agree with you except on this one point: ""Rock salt is best used to melt ice off your driveway""

Actually there are a few tasty beverages that make much better use of rock salt. There are synthetics for melting driveways now. :D

[Eyesac]

Swat him on the nose w/ a rolled up newspaper. And then tell him that pulling the trigger on someone should never be to "scare them off"

[SuperNaut]

I have been shot in the ass with rock salt from ~30' by an angry farmer. I can attest that it will break the skin but there is little penetration.

It hurts like a mother.

[Lucky]

Has he considered locking his door? How do junkies just stumble into his apartment?

[quatin]

Why rock salt? Why not a blank?

[CZ.22]

Paintball gun for dealing with the hooligans/eggers/etc etc.
For crackheads- well, then 00 is your friends.

[plexreticle]

Don't shoot a gun at anything you don't want destroyed.