Dream carbine...part 2


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Owlnmole
March 25, 2008, 09:04 AM
My earlier post about a "Modern carbine in... .30 carbine?" (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=349407)got mixed reviews, so how about this idea:

Multi-caliber carbine

16.5 in barrel
Simple, blowback action
Box magazine
Synthetic stock
Ghost-ring sights or non-magnifying optical sight
Integral Picatinny rail or Weaver base
Utility rifle lines (M1 Carbine, Ruger Mini-14 or 10/22, etc.)
Interchangeable barrel, bolt face, recoil spring and magazine

The attraction, of course, would be the ability to change out calibers if desired. Even if that is not a popular option, the economies of scale of interchangeable components should make it cheaper to offer the carbine in multiple calibers.

Now, for caliber options, how about .30 carbine, 5.7x28 mm (FN P-90) and common auto pistol calibers (9mm, .40 cal, .45 cal) to start?

That would cover everything from plinking to short-range varminting and even deer hunting with the right loads. It would also cover home defense and even police patrol (with the ability to use milspec SS190 5.7mm if the bad guys are wearing vests).

If kept reasonably priced, it would be the poor man's PDW, which brings us back full circle to the origins of the M1 Carbine.

I'd love to hear feedback on the idea.

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Irwin
March 25, 2008, 09:32 AM
what could it do that a ar15 couldnt?

Owlnmole
March 25, 2008, 09:38 AM
I would phrase it another way, that it would do what an AR-15 can do at short ranges but with less weight, noise, flash and, especially, cost. It would also do it in a discreet way that would be acceptable in situations and communities where black rifles are unwelcome.

NG VI
March 25, 2008, 10:16 AM
But what if we want it be at least somewhat of an EBR?

Could it be switchable between EBR and EWR? (evil wooden rifle).

Cause I am a huge fan of modularity and switching out components with little to no difficulty.

Owlnmole
March 25, 2008, 01:13 PM
I am sure we could manage a wood stock for the Luddites among us, and a vertical foregrip/bipod/quad rail/laser/light/scope/collapsible stock/300-round magazine/kitchen sink assembly for the EBR fans. :-p

Hoppy590
March 25, 2008, 03:03 PM
* 16.5 in barrel
* Simple, blowback action
* Box magazine
* Synthetic stock
* Ghost-ring sights or non-magnifying optical sight
* Integral Picatinny rail or Weaver base
* Utility rifle lines (M1 Carbine, Ruger Mini-14 or 10/22, etc.)
* Interchangeable barrel, bolt face, recoil spring and magazine


Now, for caliber options, how about .30 carbine, 5.7x28 mm (FN P-90) and common auto pistol calibers (9mm, .40 cal, .45 cal) to start?

if kept reasonably priced, it would be the poor man's PDW, which brings us back full circle to the origins of the M1 Carbine

it exists. its called the Hi Point Carbine or keltec carbine.

Bazooka Joe71
March 25, 2008, 03:10 PM
it exists. its called the Hi Point Carbine or keltec carbine.

Yep...I was actually thinking of a Cx4, but still.:)

elmerfudd
March 25, 2008, 04:04 PM
If there were a reliable .30 carbine out there with the Hi-Point's price tag, it would be a real winner.

Zundfolge
March 25, 2008, 04:08 PM
Sounds like an unconverted Saiga in 7.62x39 or 7.62x51 with a Kobra red dot.

Vern Humphrey
March 25, 2008, 04:09 PM
One problem -- with blowback actions, it is primarily the weight (mass) of the breech block that determines the speed of cycling.

With powerful cartridges, the speed of the breech block is high enough to destroy the weapon pretty quickly.

To prevent this, the mass of the breech block must be increased. For example, a .30-06 blowback rifle would require a breech block weighing about 27 lbs.

So how powerful would this carbine be?

Owlnmole
March 25, 2008, 07:10 PM
Hmm...

Hi Point - Sorry, that the ugliest thing I've ever seen and reliability has been hit or miss, it seems to be either great or terrible. Not very discreet either, and the pistol calibers are my second choice after the old and new PDW calibers (.30 carbine and 5.7x28mm).

Kel-Tec SU-16 - Better, but borderline EBR, getting out of the price range and not the right caliber.

Ruger Mini-14 or Mini-30 - No one mentioned them, but someone is bound too. Good solutions, except for the calibers being more than I'd like and the price.

Saiga - In it's base configuration, pretty close to what I'd like except for the caliber. For that matter, I'd probably prefer the 7.62x39mm. Now if they made one in .30 carbine....

On blowback actions - we are talking about near-pistol calibers or pistol calibers, nothing like a .30-06. If I wanted a great .30-06, I'd get a Garand, nothing more, nothing less. I shot one of those quite a bit as a kid, eight big bangs and kaaaching, loved it.

Any more nominees?

Hoppy590
March 25, 2008, 09:11 PM
Kel-Tec makes a pistol caliber carbine, the Sub 2000 which is chambered in pistol rounds, and accepts either magzines below
9mm : Glock 17, Glock 19, S&W 59, Beretta 92, SIG 226
.40 Cal : Glock 22, S&W 4006, Beretta 96, SIG 226

the Hi Point is a very reliable gun, if you arnt happy, send it back to Hi Point and they will make you happy.

5.7 is a proprietary round with the main focus on defeating soft armor, which from my understanding it has been found wanting.

again, i revamp my call for support of a Hi Point/Kel-Tec 7.62X25 carbine.

you seem to be just presenting arguments that circle around the M1 carbine. you are finding flaws in everything thats not the M1 Carbine. kel Tec su16 (.223) at <500$ is too powerful, and too pricey. the Hi Point (9mm or .40) at 150$ is too weak and too unreliable (contrary to both my personal experience as well as second hand reports)

i would hope your not talking of a 30-06 straight blow back. as it would have to be a mounted piece due to its weight. and extremely dangerous due to its design.

jeridurine
March 25, 2008, 09:52 PM
I found this at gallery of guns. http://www.galleryofguns.com/GunLocator/gunsearch/Product.asp?Manuf=&item_num=AOM160&index=3&max=100&start=100&instock=None&manufact_combo=Auto%2DOrdnance&mod_ser_combo=None&category_combo=None&model=None&g_type=None&act_type=None&finish_type=None&calib_combo=30+Carbine&sight_class_combo=None&price_range=None&qPromoID=&EZ=&left_handed=&youth=&item_only=0&oldsql=WHERE+%28unk2+like+%27%251%27+or+unk2+like+%27%252%27%29++AND+manuf+like+%27%25Auto%2DOrdnance%25%27++AND++%28Caliber+like+%2730+Carbine%7C%25%27+or+Caliber+like+%27%25%7C30+Carbine%27+or+Caliber+%3D+%2730+Carbine%27%29+ORDER+BY+manuf%2C+unk2%2C+unk3#

http://i27.tinypic.com/14xm7ty.jpg

greyling22
March 25, 2008, 11:06 PM
as long as we are wishing I want an m1 carbine in .357mag with the ultimak mount and dot scope. or one of those ruger .44mag semi auto's they don't appear to make any more with a 10 round mag and synth stock.

Owlnmole
March 26, 2008, 04:56 AM
It's crazy that the Ruger seems to have dropped both the .44 carbines (lever-action and semi-auto) and the PC semi-auto carbines. I am sure both are not too hard to find used, but I thought the .44s had long been good sellers, and the PC9 and PC4 carbines also filled a great niche. :-(

otomik
March 26, 2008, 05:28 AM
* 16.5 in barrel
* Simple, blowback action
* Box magazine
* Synthetic stock
* Ghost-ring sights or non-magnifying optical sight
* Integral Picatinny rail or Weaver base
* Utility rifle lines (M1 Carbine, Ruger Mini-14 or 10/22, etc.)
* Interchangeable barrel, bolt face, recoil spring and magazine
i think this would be better
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZ_Model_25
If it's going to be blowback why not fire a carbine cartridge like 7.62mm Tokarev that can fit in a pistol grip to make it more compact? that was a smart approach also taken by the Beretta CX4. you're heavily biased toward the "utility rifles lines" rather than to a form following function approach.

SaMx
March 26, 2008, 03:28 PM
I think I understand what you're getting at. basically you would like a compact rifle that has the flexibility of the AR-15 with a more traditional look rather than the "assault rifle" look.

I think it's a good idea. I'm not sure if .30 carbine will work well as a straight blowback, or if it's really necessary. You could make pistol caliber carbine that could be chambered fo 8mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, 10mm, or .357 SIG. With something like 10mm or even 7.62x25 could do the same thing.


as for the design, maybe it could have a front receiver and a rear receiver, like an AR has an upper and lower. The front receiver would have the barrel and magwell, and the rear would have the trigger group and bolt. To change calibers you could remove the front receiver and pop in a heaver or lighter bolt as was necessary for the new caliber.
that would let it act like a takedown rifle too.

PercyShelley
March 26, 2008, 03:34 PM
To prevent this, the mass of the breech block must be increased. For example, a .30-06 blowback rifle would require a breech block weighing about 27 lbs.

The empirical equation I've always seen for blowback-action bolt mass was based on conservation of momentum from the outgoing bullet and propellant gases, but the good folks here insist that it's non-linear as well.

Anyway, .30 carbine has about half the bullet weight, twice the velocity and much more propellant gas than .45 ACP. If it's suitable for a simple blowback action, it's definately on the upper end, and the gun will have a most unpleasant shaking and banging as the bolt slams in and out of battery.

KadicDeshi
March 26, 2008, 10:38 PM
again, i revamp my call for support of a Hi Point/Kel-Tec 7.62X25 carbine.

That's got my vote. Personally, I'd prefer something along the lines of a Krink/Bizon but either of those companies could probably make a rifle that I'd be more than happy with.

Barrett

Appaloosa
March 26, 2008, 10:53 PM
If someone made an m1 carbine conversion to 10mm I would buy one.

SaMx
March 26, 2008, 10:59 PM
see, I think there is a market for a modern m1 carbine, except some people want it in 10mm and some people want it in 7.62x25, and some people want it in .357 magnum ( I guess it would use desert eagle mags). So it would make more sense if you could switch calibers like you can with an ar-15.

Owlnmole
March 27, 2008, 05:21 AM
How about something like a Ruger PC9/PC4 carbine, but with a rotary magazine to make it easier to use both rimmed and rimless cartridges?

On the blowback operation question, there have been .44 magnum straight blowback actions without a problem (Ruger Deerfield carbine, 10/44. etc.) so I don't see why anything up to .30 carbine or 5.7mm should be a problem.

That said, a delayed blowback or simple gas-operated system might be more flexible in terms adapting to varying pressures from different loads in the same caliber, or easy caliber conversion as already discussed. It would be relatively easy to have a gas-operated action, like a simplified M1 Carbine but with a dial on the end of the gas tube to select the gas port size appropriate to the caliber and load being used.

PercyShelley
March 28, 2008, 03:05 AM
According to the ruger PDF on the subject:

http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/PDF/InstructionManuals/21.pdf


The deerfield is gas-operated.

Owlnmole
March 28, 2008, 05:16 AM
Right you are on the Deerfield, I stand corrected.

PercyShelley
March 28, 2008, 10:25 PM
I wish I had some sort of scale around the house so I could tell you how much the bolt from my .45 CX4 storm weighs. I don't think I would be that far off to say it's about 1/3 the total weight of the gun, and you can really feel it sloshing around when you shoot it.

A straight blowback .44 magnum would have to have a bolt at least twice as heavy, assuming that the momentum conservation method of figuring such things works with the larger and more powerful cartridges.

XnaV80
March 28, 2008, 11:09 PM
so something looking like mine but w/ interchangable calibers?
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn272/Xnav80/m1carbine.jpg

Dionysusigma
April 1, 2008, 06:42 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=350539
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=351930
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=352060

The above threads got me thinking as well.

OAL of 5.7x28mm: 40.5 mm
OAL of .30 Carbine: 41.91 mm

Could someone try loading a USGI 15-round magazine with 5.7 to see if it fits and functions?

Also, regarding the bullpup question that icebones posed, what about the Boberg XR9 design?

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