[VaughnT]

First let me give kudos to Ted Yost for outstanding service. I shot the first comp last month on the second sunday and experienced a cataclysmic sight failure. The slide was on it's way to AZ that monday and I recieved it back this friday past. With his move and everything, Ted managed to repair the sight (manufacturer defect) and get it back to me in time to shoot this month's match. That's saying something about the man. I would also note that I didn't have time to sight the weapon in prior to the match so all I could do was hope - Ted put it back together perfectly and she shot to point of aim.

Overall, the match was a blast. Two of my coworkers shot the match with me and agreed that it couldn't have been more fun. They'll be back.

Anyhow, the RO's insist that we secure the expended magazines by putting them in our pockets rather than pinching them with the weak-hand fingers and continuing to fire. All of the gunrag pics show folks holding a depleted mag between the fingers, but we aren't allowed according to "the IDPA". What's up with that?

Second, there's a lot of cheatin' goin' on! I know it's hot, but why aren't you wearing a covering garment? It's supposed to be a CONCEALED weapon unless you're competing in duty gear...right?

And why are people allowed to compete with Para-Ord giant guns, with the huge magwells? There is no way you could conceal that weapon!! And don't get me started on the one RO that was holding his moonclips in a competition-style bare metal belt clip!

I'm sorry to rant as I realize that this is supposed to be fun and educational. It just gets under my skin when I have to compete against someone who rolls their own ammo (loaded light) when I'm shooting store-bought, full power rounds.

I was in duty gear, trying to do my best and I think I acquitted myself well. My coworkers had a great time, shot well, and are looking forward to next month. I'm seriously addicted to this stuff, but don't understand where the rulebook starts and stops.

Thanks for listening, seeyaontheline.

[Andrew Wyatt]

And why are people allowed to compete with Para-Ord giant guns, with the huge magwells? There is no way you could conceal that weapon!!


it's less than a 1/4 inch wider than a GM.


did the little metal clips hold the moon clips securely? if so, what's the problem?


as for the covering garment thing, i do agree with you, but there are times when it's contraindicated, like a first time shooter.

[VaughnT]

Mr. Wyatt, I don't have a problem with the clip holders except that I was told they were illegal in IDPA because they didn't hold the moonclips securely during regular activity. I don't mind this guy using them as he is an extraordinarily polite and helpful gentleman. At his age, compete how you like and enjoy yourself.

As to the covering garment, well....when do we start wearing them? I was in my duty gear and my holster's thumb-break was working the whole day. Some of the other guys were using Yaqui slides or Uncle Mike's open-topped rigs that allowed for a very fast presentation.....but I was forced to snap that thumb-break.

Let me state again, clearly and for the record, that I don't mind these little things. I'm just trying to understand the big rules and how they impact my defensive abilities. I was honestly dumbfounded when I was told to stow that completely empty magazine in my pocket before proceeding to fire. Everyone had to do it and everyone would have died if a badguy was actually being engaged. Something like that just doesn't make a bit of sense to me. I don't have any problems with keeping the empty, or partially so, magazine as I might need it further into the gunfight. But having to take the time away from neutralizing the threat seemed weird.

Anyhow, I'll figure out how to play this game before too long. I just have to remember that it is a game and not necessarily something to stake my life on. All of the stages taught me valuable lessons that might just save my bacon one day. What more can you ask for?

[GeneS]

VaughnT,

I think IDPA encourages shooting from concealment, it's requirement on each stage is up to the Match Director. Concealment garments get pretty miserable on hot, humid days. I welcome the relief.

I know there's one metal moon clip holder that's legal. But it's not legal for speedloaders, go figure.

By the way, was the match at Greenville, SC?

Gene

[Jim Watson]

Anyhow, the RO's insist that we secure the expended magazines by putting them in our pockets rather than pinching them with the weak-hand fingers and continuing to fire. All of the gunrag pics show folks holding a depleted mag between the fingers, but we aren't allowed according to "the IDPA".

*A PARTLY expended magazine, after a Tactical Reload or a Reload With Retention must be "stowed." That is an actual rulebook rule. An empty magazine may be dropped during a slidelock reload. An empty magazine must be retained and stowed IF the chamber is still loaded. Not "tactically" sensible, but needed to keep people from counting shots to save time on the reload. If you were required to stow an empty magazine after a slide lock reload, the SO was not following the rules himself. Magazine illustrations are not precedents for match competition.

Second, there's a lot of cheatin' goin' on! I know it's hot, but why aren't you wearing a covering garment? It's supposed to be a CONCEALED weapon unless you're competing in duty gear...right?

*It is not a concealment stage unless it is so stated in the CoF. I think concealment should be required except for Standards stages, but a lot of MDs cut their wimp shooters some slack in hot weather. I don't stand around with my vest or overshirt off until the last minute and take up everybody's time getting dressed to shoot, either.

And why are people allowed to compete with Para-Ord giant guns, with the huge magwells? There is no way you could conceal that weapon!! And don't get me started on the one RO that was holding his moonclips in a competition-style bare metal belt clip!

*Guns are not allowed by what appears to be readily concealable, the only requirement is that they fit in the official Box.

*The spring clip moonclip carrier is allowed; the same thing for a speedloader is specifically against the rules. Sorry 'bout that.

I'm sorry to rant as I realize that this is supposed to be fun and educational. It just gets under my skin when I have to compete against someone who rolls their own ammo (loaded light) when I'm shooting store-bought, full power rounds.

*Each Division has power factor requirements. They are somewhat below standard power, I guess to prevent what Cooper called "contributing to the delinquency of handloaders."

I was in duty gear, trying to do my best and I think I acquitted myself well. My coworkers had a great time, shot well, and are looking forward to next month. I'm seriously addicted to this stuff, but don't understand where the rulebook starts and stops.

*Do you have a rulebook or printout from the website? It is not a very good rulebook and it is not always enforced constently, but it is all we have right now.

*I have already explained to one guy today that IDPA has wasted no time in dividing into the two factions seen years ago in IPSC. There are the Martial Artists who govern themselves by the principles of the sport and apply whatever "tactical" training they may have. Then there are the Gamesmen who follow the specific rules and strive for the best score. They debate and criticize endlessly, but both are having a good time and shooting better. Just do what you are going to do and don't let the other camp get under your skin. If you get your nose out of joint because somebody else doesn't do it your way and you stay home, who is the loser?

*I am fairly gamey myself but there are some things that get under my skin too. I just try to get over them and soldier on.

*I commend you for getting out and shooting. I don't know your training and qualification schedule, but match shooting can add a lot of variety. It adds stress, too, nothing like somebody standing behind you with a timer and a scorecard to get the old adrenaline flowing; plus the effort of competing with your buds and the club know it all. And you are way ahead of the station house and gun store experts who somehow are never to be seen firing a shot in public.

[faustulus]

I'm with Jim. Shooting is the goal (I like to compete, but shooting is the number one goal) I don't play golf, I don't play tennis, this is my recreation. And it reinforces some useful skills to boot.

[another okie]

IDPA and IPSC are both like golf. There are the actual rules, which are enforced carefully at major matches, and then there is how people at informal local matches compete.

The concealment garment is often waived here in hot weather country when the temperature is unbearable, though since I normally conceal with just an untucked short sleeved shirt, it's not a problem. I also shot an IDPA match in Missouri one time where they didn't use concealment, since they don't have CCW there.

As far as the magazine thing goes, if you shoot to slidelock you can drop the magazine on the ground because you are sure it's empty. But if you are reloading with a round in the chamber the rules require you to stow the magazine because maybe you've miscounted or maybe you shouldn't count at all and you don't want to leave a magazine behind with ammo in it. I think this rule (and the associated tac load rule) is a prime one for revision in the next rule book because there is more complaint about it than any other. However, IDPA is not a democracy, so who knows?

Go shoot and have fun. Since there are no cash prizes (or not supposed to be) just shoot it in a way that helps you practice and don't worry about the second or two extra. Or treat it as a game and don't use your duty gear. Whatever floats your boat.

[Correia]

I carry a poly Kimber in a Rosen pancake all the time. About the same size as a Para. No problem.

As was stated before, concealment is only required when specified in the COF. Shoot some matches in 100+ degree weather in the howling desert wind and you will be very very glad of that fact. I have also shot matches below freezing, and then every stage turned into a concealment stage, whether specified or not, because none of us were going to take off our coats! :D

Handloads can vary greatly. Just because you like to spend extra money on factory ammo, don't knock the rest of us cheap buggers. :) My handloads are 200 gr. semi wadcutters over 4.7 grains of 231. I make powerfactor just fine. And yes I have carried them in my CCW gun without breaking into a cold sweat.

As an RO I personally would not ding somebody for dropping an empty mag on the ground. If you are reloading form slide lock that is what you are supposed to do. I don't know the specifics of the COF you were on, but it was probably set up to require a tac reload, but some guns were going to end up dropping an empty mag. In that case the RO still probably wanted everybody to stow it so that there would be a level playing field.

When in doubt ask the RO. We usually don't mind.

[Matthew_Q]

I see a few things at our local IDPA matches that would be considered 'illegal' by IDPA rules. We're pretty laid back about it. What with temperatures getting above 100° regularly, and with the heat index pushing it higher, noone wants to be required to wear concealment clothing. It's just a PITA. We mostly shoot for the fun and competition.


I pulled an oops on a reload at the last IDPA. I was shooting a 1911 with 8rd mags. One stage required 8 shots, then a move behind cover to another set of targets. Well, I shot my 8, had one round in the pipe and dropped the mag and loaded a fresh mag. Got a procedural for it. That is what they call a 'speed reload', which is generally a no-no in IDPA. I have learned. If I simply retained the mag like a tactical reload, I'd have been fine. The other choice would have been to get to the other targets and fire the last round and do a slide-lock reload. I'll tell you, that speed reload was quick!

As far as moon clips, aren't those illegal in IDPA? I'm thinking about shooting my wheelgun in the next IDPA match I go to, and I'll have to use my speed loaders, but I think it would be great if moonclips were allowed.... They'd be so easy to reload with... but I'd have to have the cylinder modifed for them...

Anyway, I would only complain about any rules if it were a serious match with a nice prize, and someone with an illegal gun or otherwise wins it, I'd raise the concerns.

I'm fine with people shooting illegal configurations, but I think it should be noted, and they should not qualify or rank for that particular match.

[444]

All the arguing about the various shooting disiplines and the rules is kind of amusing to me. I once shot match where you could choose to follow IDPA rules or not; and they had seperate score rankings for each. It sounded like some guys there argued that wanted to use their everyday CCW holster, or gun or whatever and were prohibited from doing so by IDPA rules; so you could shoot the course of fire with no rules and be on this score sheet, or you could shoot IDPA rules and be on that score sheet. :rolleyes:

I think some of this has to do with our society trying not to offend anyone and trying to make everybody happy rather than being fair. If someone invents a game and you want to play, just play by the rules. Don't try to over analyze it; just accept the conditions offered or not. Take what you can from the experience and go through the motions on the rest of it.

I find a lot of stuff in IDPA to be overly complicated and ridiculous, but I enjoy shooting the matches so I go along with it and accept the rules as written.

I admit that I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer and get easily confused over the courses of fire. I shot a match the other day and spent all my time worrying about exactly how I was supposed to shoot the stage and still screwed up a few times. Turn and shoot each target once t then go back and and shoot them all three times then to a tac reload, stand on your head and drink water with one eye closed while shooting weak hand only while the target does cartwheels down the range ................................. I personally think all this is way overly complicated and takes away from the experience, but that is the breaks.

[cadfael]

444,
Turn and shoot each target once t then go back and and shoot them all three times then to a tac reload, stand on your head and drink water with one eye closed while shooting weak hand only while the target does cartwheels down the range

I think I see your problem. The COF also involved pouring a cup of coffee (2 sugars, 1 cream), taking out the trash, cleaning the car, painting the house, and swimming 2 laps at the pool... (I think I may still be missing something).

Otherwise, most of the COF's I've seen involve either a straight skills test (how fast you can shoot, move, and transition), or a test of your thinking while shooting fast (unusual shoot order, starting with a newspaper, dragging a dummy behind cover, etc.).

Adam

[444]

I left out the part about this being at night and using a flashlight.

[Jim Watson]

MatthewQ

FACTORY moonclip guns are fine.
Conversions are not allowed. They are not a cureall anyhow; the long skinny .357 just does not behave like a .45 ACP in clips.

I have a 686 that was in the shop for conversion during the short time they were authorized. I shot it some in practice before they reneged on the approval, and in one outlaw match. I would not do it again even if it were allowed. The long cases are just too prone to twist and bind.

Now the new PC 686 .38 Super might do better. But there is no doubt about a 625. I have not used a 610. The best revolver shooter I know (Master class) has tried them all. He is selling the 686 and the 610 and competing with the 625. Does that tell you something? I am still tempted on the 686, but might do as well with my old M25 and better with a new PC625. Those are NICE, especially after an action job which can improve over even the PC, and a Cylinder & Slide long firing pin which allows a lighter mainspring.

[VaughnT]

Last Month's IDPA Score = 3rd Place: VaughnT. Gross Score 125.49 (50).

First Stage: 35.07 (7)

Second Stage: 27.87 (9)

Third Stage: 20.72 (1)

Fourth Stage: 18.55 (11)

Fifth Stage: 23.28 (22)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This Month's IDPA Score = 3rd Place: VaughnT. Gross Score 120.28 (15).

First Stage: 35.08 (1)

Second Stage: 32.58 (13)

Third Stage: 19.63 (1)

Fourth Stage: 18.56 (0)

Fifth Stage: 14.43 (0)

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Having seen the two score sheets side-by-side, I see a dramatic improvement in that parethetical number, whatever it means. This month's first two stages were beasts, with multiple targets, walking, one-handed shooting, swingers, droppers and just about everything else they could throw at us. Everybody loved the challenge but hated going through it because it dropped your scores soooo much. On the third stage, I got a 3.0 second procedural because I didn't reload when they said too. My fault for not playing by the rules.

Does anyone have a clue as to what the number in parenthesis means?

I can see that I need to work on accuracy from the holster and while moving. Walking and shooting is a whole new venture for me and it really threw me off a bit. Shooting at a dropping/swinging target is just tough to do.

[444]

If I am not mistaken the first number is your time for the stage and the second number is your points down. A zero would be a perfect score. The scoring rings are marked on the cardboard IDPA target. A hit in the "vitals" is a -0, as you get further out you get -1, -3, and a clean miss is -5.
I am sure the more experienced shooters will correct me if I am wrong.

[Jim Watson]

The number in parentheses is points down for the stage and for the match. They contributed half a second each to your final score. Some places will tabulate procedurals, hits on non threat targets, and failures to neutralize, too.

Unless your club runs the same events every match (most unlikely), comparison of the times and totals means little. Which is why I doubt the veracity of those tactical wonders who only compete with themselves. Based on what?