?Self defence AR-15 ammo?


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Asaph
March 26, 2008, 02:27 PM
What if you had to shoot a bad guy that was shooting at you and he had body armour on or was in a Car.

Which AR cartridge would be better suited for self defense from 50-200 yards?

Prvi Partizan 5.56x45 55GR FMJBT made in Serbia to exact M193 specs. Brass case, boxer non-corrosive primed, crimped primer with lacquer seal and loaded with a double base powder for military specs.

OR

Wolf .223 62GR HP made in Russia. steel case, Berdan-primed, non-corrosive, non-reloadable and polymer coated for smooth feeding.

Is there anything better thats still around $6.00-$8.50 a box?

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Kingcreek
March 26, 2008, 02:40 PM
Where do you live, that you feel a need to plan for that scenario?:eek:
armoured hostile shooter 200 yards out?
You need more than you can squeeze out of the front of your AR for <$8.50/20.
Concrete and sandbags, lots of sandbags... and a cell phone...

Asaph
March 26, 2008, 02:51 PM
LOL!

you know... I just would like to get the best I can (afford) to get. ( :

yosarian
March 26, 2008, 02:52 PM
This link has alot of great information on ammo http://ammo.ar15.com/

Ridgerunner665
March 26, 2008, 02:54 PM
I think 1 round of Hornady 75 grain TAP (NATO) right through the nasal passages should do the trick. But its a little more $$$ than $8 - $10 a box. My life is priceless...to me anyways.

CBS220
March 26, 2008, 02:59 PM
Why would you even consider only paying 8 dollars a box for SD ammo?

Buy the high end stuff. Run enough through your gun to know it will cycle, and use the other ammo to plink.

Asaph
March 26, 2008, 02:59 PM
Hopefully I would not need to use any plan like that! lol

Asaph
March 26, 2008, 03:02 PM
But still which one?

Prvi Partizan 5.56x45 55GR FMJBT made in Serbia to exact M193 specs. Brass case, boxer non-corrosive primed, crimped primer with lacquer seal and loaded with a double base powder for military specs.

OR

Wolf .223 62GR HP made in Russia. steel case, Berdan-primed, non-corrosive, non-reloadable and polymer coated for smooth feeding.

CBS220
March 26, 2008, 03:02 PM
Plan for the worst and hope for the best.

I would take the Prvi, it shoots much better for me.

yosarian
March 26, 2008, 03:03 PM
If those are your only choices go with the M193.

NG VI
March 26, 2008, 04:04 PM
Get some Georgia Arms. There was some problem or other in some matches a while back that their 5.56 ammo was somehow involved in, but it seems like a very isolated incident and they are a great company to deal with. Plus you can get a wide array of bullet weights and styles from them and they are brass cased non-corrosive, American company, going to be slightly, and I mean slightly, more expensive than the two you mentioned but the ammo is much higher quality. don't get anything less than 62 grain for defence, at least I don't.

55 grain is for coyotes and gophers.

MrAcheson
March 26, 2008, 04:13 PM
Get the M193 copy. It will tumble and fragment better than the 62 grain stuff, especially if the 62 grainer has any sort of penetrator within the bullet.

Bobarino
March 26, 2008, 08:56 PM
if only given those two choices, i'd go with the PRVI too. i'd rather use brass case if given the choice.

my own personal preference is to have one magazine loaded full of really good stuff, in my case, Winchester Ranger 64 grain softpoints, with the rifle in case of a defensive situation and i use the cheap stuff for the range only. good defensive ammo can be had for about a buck a round, or less. i wouldn't trust my life to Wolf or anything of questionable quality.

Bobby

Art Eatman
March 26, 2008, 09:18 PM
"Defense" means he missed his first shot, most likely, since you're still around to worry about it. I think I'd practice not being around for any more of his efforts. Rapidly, toward cover and concealment. Stipulating car or body armor, the likely target is the head, after you're done hyper-ventilating. Any old .223 wil cause a severe leakage there.

Frog48
March 26, 2008, 10:16 PM
I keep a mag or two loaded with 55 gr. soft points.

TexasRifleman
March 26, 2008, 10:17 PM
The best thing to use is the Hornady TAP 75gr or the 77gr Mk262Mod1 ammo from Black Hills (but you won't find any of that).

It's not cheap though.

If I had to use something in that price range I'd use M193 of whatever flavor assuming your barrel twist rates are good for that weight bullet.

Frog48
March 27, 2008, 07:02 PM
The best thing to use is the Hornady TAP 75gr or the 77gr Mk262Mod1 ammo from Black Hills (but you won't find any of that).


Would it be ok to use 75 gr ammo out of a 1/9 barrel? I've always read that it wouldnt stabilize...

S&WKING
March 27, 2008, 11:19 PM
i would say those would be pretty rare ocasions but i would go with Hornady TAP

ZombiesAhead
March 27, 2008, 11:34 PM
I've been buying the Wolf but if I was in your shoes (and I'm glad I'm not!) I would go with the Privi Partisan.

Our local PD uses Federal that sells commercially for about $450/1000.

Funderb
March 28, 2008, 12:15 AM
Umm. anything,
just not in 5.56.

Titan6
March 28, 2008, 07:25 AM
"Defense" means he missed his first shot, most likely, since you're still around to worry about it. I think I'd practice not being around for any more of his efforts. Rapidly, toward cover and concealment. Stipulating car or body armor, the likely target is the head, after you're done hyper-ventilating. Any old .223 wil cause a severe leakage there.

That is it in a nutshell. You can not count on body hits on armored targets with anything 7.62X51 or smaller.

Zach S
March 28, 2008, 12:06 PM
Never shot the PP stuff, but based on my experiance with wolf, I'd choose the PP...

Would it be ok to use 75 gr ammo out of a 1/9 barrel? I've always read that it wouldnt stabilize...
It does in some, doesnt in others. 1/9 bbls can be picky about 75 grain ammo, but some shoot it very well.

Just gonna have to try it. At home defense distances you wont have anything to worry about, unless the BG is firing at you from a car 200 yards away.

TexasRifleman
March 28, 2008, 12:12 PM
Would it be ok to use 75 gr ammo out of a 1/9 barrel? I've always read that it wouldnt stabilize....

Like Zach says, it's pot luck. I have 2 barrels it shoots in just fine, one it tumbles. It shoots great in my 11.5 and 16 Bushmasters and not in one other I have, Rock River I think it is.

It's worth trying to see for sure because those loadings are by far the best for self defense use.

MHBushmaster
March 28, 2008, 02:11 PM
Funderb, you wrote:
"Umm. anything, just not in 5.56"

The OP asked a question about a 5.56 AR-15.
I'm sure you are of the mindset that it is a mickey mouse rifle and not worthy of shooting a bad guy with cause it will just sting him, right? (eyes rolling)

To the OP, get more ammo options than the 2 you listed.
Wolf is great practice ammo, its not really suitable for Self Defense due to its thicker copper jacket which does not lend itself to fragmentation terminal performance.

The Privi Partizan M193 clone ammo is decent, but its not the best. Try and get some 75 or 77gr bullets for you self defense ammo. Failing that, try some in the mid 60gr weight range.

Since I don't know how long your barrel is or what twist rate it is, its kind of hard to determine the factors that would help you choose some good quality self defense ammo: your options are limited if your using an older A1 barrel with a nominal 1/12" twist as compared to a faster 1/7" twist barrel.

rcmodel
March 28, 2008, 02:18 PM
Why anyone would even consider using any FMJ ammo for SD if they were not forced to by military rules is beyond me!

There are much better choices in the TAP line as well as Barnes solid copper and a few deer hunting loads from Winchester, Federal, and others.

Any of them will shoot through car doors, and go on to take out a BG.

Tumbling & fragmentation are fine if that's the best ammo you are allowed to use.

But if you are a cop or civilian, there are far better choices available!

rcmodel

Deer Hunter
March 28, 2008, 02:24 PM
Would a fragmenting ballistic tip be a better bet?

coloradokevin
March 28, 2008, 03:18 PM
Funderb, you wrote:
"Umm. anything, just not in 5.56"

The OP asked a question about a 5.56 AR-15.
I'm sure you are of the mindset that it is a mickey mouse rifle and not worthy of shooting a bad guy with cause it will just sting him, right? (eyes rolling)


I have to agree with him, in this case... A .223/5.56x45 round is not all that effective on car doors, particularly in M193 configuration.

Our range has tested for the effectiveness of doing this with our rifles at work, and the results were not good.

They certainly won't be any better at 200+ yards


I love my AR-15, and think it is a great weapon system. But, it is certainly not the ideal (or likely) choice for hitting a target behind a car part at that kind of distance... Sure, it will do wonders to an unarmored target at that range, but not someone sitting behind a car door (at least not reliably).

And, increased fragmentation is generally not something you want if you are trying to get to a target that is hiding behind a car door!

Why are we taking a 200yrd shot at someone driving away anyway?

kBob
March 28, 2008, 03:38 PM
coloradokevin,

Although it seems counter intuitive, test after test has shown that both M193 and Green Tip have better penitration at or near 200 meters than closer or further away.

Has to do with the stabilizing efect of the spin placed on the round by the rifling. By 200 meters the wobbles the bullet may have have all been reduced to their maximum and beyound 200 meters lose of velocity begins to reduce penitration.

At least one oft qouted source indicated there is no appreciable difference in penitrating concrete or steel or other hard material between the M193 and Green tip at ranges under 35 meters or so because of the stability issue.

Go figure.

-Bob Hollingsworth

Frog48
March 30, 2008, 05:27 PM
Like Zach says, it's pot luck. I have 2 barrels it shoots in just fine, one it tumbles. It shoots great in my 11.5 and 16 Bushmasters and not in one other I have, Rock River I think it is.

It's worth trying to see for sure because those loadings are by far the best for self defense use.

Maybe a stupid question, but... at close-range/self-defense distances, would tumbling significantly affect stopping effectiveness?

Frog48
March 30, 2008, 11:22 PM
Anybody?

Ridgerunner665
March 31, 2008, 12:14 AM
This may be helpful...

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/Ridgerunner665/223steel.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/Ridgerunner665/223glass.jpg

Ridgerunner665
March 31, 2008, 12:19 AM
And here is a Barnes 62 grain TSX I fired point blank into solid slate rock at 2,900 fps...it penetrated 12 inches...and the only weight it lost was the petals coming off...these are the best bullets on the market today.

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/Ridgerunner665/122_2204.jpg

BorisDaBastid
March 31, 2008, 03:18 AM
When I was in Ramadi, a certain special ops group there with us had 5.56 in a round-nose flavor. Not only was it round, but the bullet was substantially longer than our ball, and appeared to have a bit of a hole in the end. They gave us some, but we mainly used it for dog control. I know my description is vague, but anyone have a clue as to what kind of round it was? *edit* Also, If I remember correctly, it wasn't FMJ, looked to be pure lead.

jrfoxx
March 31, 2008, 06:23 AM
I have a mag loaded with Hornady TAP 65gr. The Hornady TAP ammo seems to be pretty well regarded, and looks good in tests from what I've heard/read, so that what I went with.Most prefer the 75gr stuff it seems, but since my Bushmaster is 1:9, I went with the 65gr out of concerns for stabilization, and thus accuracy.I gather it wouldnt have mattered at any reasonable SD/HD distance, as it would be fairly close in, but also didnt see what I'd gain with the slightly heavier round, vs. what I'd likely loose in long range stability/accuracy IF it were needed, so I figured the trade of was worth it to me. Also, my M4 isnt my HD/SD gun really, except in serious SHTF stuff, so I was even less worried.In that case, I'd probly be using the many mags of green tip "penetrator" I have loaded up anyway. Any of the modern purpose built SD rounds from a major bullet maker for 5.56 is a safe bet I'm sure, when it comes down to it.

Silvanus
March 31, 2008, 06:56 AM
self defense from 50-200 yards?


Now that's funny :D

But seriously, the Prvi is probably a the better ammo.

sublimaze41
March 31, 2008, 07:17 AM
More information then you could ever need.
http://ammo.ar15.com/

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