M1A optics?


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kimberfan
March 26, 2008, 08:42 PM
ok so i want a reflex sight for my M1A

which of the above would you go with?

its a M1A standard 22inch and there gonna be on a scout mount

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H2O MAN
March 26, 2008, 09:06 PM
You may need a cheek rest... that said, lighter is better - wait for the
Aimpoint Micro T to have a smaller 1 or 2 MOA dot and go with that :cool:

Coronach
March 26, 2008, 09:08 PM
Aimpoint for durability and ease of use. Eotech for precision. Depends on which you want.

Really, the red dot doesn't play to the rifle's strengths, but I think it would still work juuuust fine with one.

Coronach
March 27, 2008, 12:30 AM
BTW, what mount? I was stoked about the Ultimak mount until I heard that it was a solid pound. I may still be stoked about it, but not quite as much if that figure is correct. Haven't decided for sure.

Mike

possum
March 27, 2008, 12:44 AM
i think the op means the scout mount that comes on the scout models, which can be bought and put on any of the m1a models.

i am a huge fan of the eotech and that is what i would reccomend. you don't have to worry about a mount it has an intregal one, so that will save you some dough, plus the 1 moa dot will assist you in getting good solid hits pretty far out there.

Coronach
March 27, 2008, 12:53 AM
Something I just thought of...

The Aimpoint will allow you to get very low over the barrel/receiver. The Eotech sits higher, and may require you to use a cheek piece.

Mike

Wes Janson
March 27, 2008, 01:54 AM
It also depends on which mount you use. The Ultimak is definitely lower than the Springfield factory mount, as I recall. Then again, it does weight about a pound. The M1A is already a hefty rifle, and once you add a pound of rail, and a pound of optic, you're looking at roughly 11-12 pounds minimum, unloaded.

It's too bad there aren't any long eye relief ACOGs.

kimberfan
March 27, 2008, 03:38 AM
yes i do mean the scout mount from springfield mainly because its cheaper and lighter then the ultimak.

accuracy is a big player in this thats why i want a 2 MOA dot or less.

i have $550 ish to spend for everything.

MassMark
March 27, 2008, 09:55 AM
If you don't at least look into a Trijicon Tripower, you're really missing out on what could be the perfect sight for you. I was blessed with open-ended opportunities to test all three on my M1A SOCOM before buying, (great friends are well, great). None of the three were perfect, but the Trijicon was the best of the three in my opinion. The Eotech had a tendency to wash under sustained fire, (the Scout mount gets toasty) and I feel they are better suited to the AR-15/M-16 platform where cooler heads prevail. Plus, the Eotech seemed too busy for me. The Aimpoint was really nice - solid and ergonomic, easy to sight in and held up well to the heat. The dot however left a lot to be desired. It tended to mirage - especially in bright conditions and forget about using it in the rain, unless you like to see red dots all over the place. Still, I found it to be a better sight for me over the Eotech, (which by the way is being recalled by US SOCOM due to electronic failures). When I mounted the Trijicon Tripower on deck, all felt right in the world. The chevron reticle is so natural to use and so instinctive on target. Setting a BSZ was a snap and you can tailor it to your shooting style and needs. Mine is set up to use the tip of the chevron for precise shooting close in, or cover for longer distances. I went from making decent shots with irons out to 200-yards and acceptable shots out to 400, to being able to lay fire reliably at all ranges. It's not a target scope - it's a battle sight obviously, but the Trijicon took my SOCOM-16 to the next level optically - the Troy MCS sealed the deal....It also stands up to withering fire, (no fade whatsoever) and has 3 sources of power. No batteries? No problem. I'm well into 10,000 rounds through the Trijicon and not only does it still hold zero, it's on it's first set of batteries! You owe it to yourself to give one a look see before you make a decision. I think any of the 3 will suit your needs - I just think the Trijicon will suit them better....Good luck.... :cool:

kimberfan
March 28, 2008, 11:32 PM
the tripower is just to much for me so its between the 2 Aimpoints

so out of the 2 what would you pick??

the c3 or the ML3??.

ShakyJ
March 28, 2008, 11:42 PM
On my SA SOCOM, I mounted an ML3 2moa Aimpoint on an Ultimak mount via a LaRue RAS II ring (lowest LaRue makes for the Aimpoint). I have to raise my head ever so slightly, but, overall, a great fit. I could not be happier with this set up. I did not like the SA rail as 1) it was too high and 2) I have heard multiple reports that it is not to spec as a true picatiny rail. Even on the Ultimak, I feel that the Eotech sits too high. Like everything, though, that's just my opinion.

Gunnerpalace
March 29, 2008, 12:10 AM
Out of curiosity didn't Randy Shugart use an Aimpoint CompB?

Coronach
March 29, 2008, 12:35 AM
His character had an Aimpoint of some sort in Black Hawk Down, but I don't know if that was accurate or not.

Mike

Buzzbox
March 29, 2008, 03:18 AM
A red dot is for speed over accuracy, and accuracy will certainly still be "minute of man."

If pinpoint accuracy is what you are after, you want a traditional telescope.

kimberfan
March 29, 2008, 04:08 AM
yes i know that buzzbox

i dont expect to shoot 1/2 MOA with a red-dot

i just need 3 inch's or less at 100 yards.

Andrewsky
March 29, 2008, 06:01 AM
Randy Shughart most likely used an Aimpoint 3000.

In the movie his character is seen with an Aimpoint CompM model (this is just my best guess).

Kimberfan, my opinion is that Aimpoints are superior to EOTechs in nearly every way. The CompC3 and CompML3 are both very good. The ML3 comes with the rubber cover, lens covers, more waterproofing, and is more expensive. You'll want to get the CompC3 though since it comes with the Aimpoint High Weaver ring (which is actually a very low ring).

MassMark
March 29, 2008, 11:21 AM
A Tripower is more expensive than an Aimpoint? I wasn't talking ACOG - they're two different sights. My Tripower was $450.00

natescout
March 29, 2008, 02:17 PM
what about the EOTECH 552 with the .308 ballistic reticle, then you dont have to spend more money on a mount ?

kimberfan
March 30, 2008, 03:23 AM
massmark

where did you get that?

cheapest i can fine is $502.

Andrewsky
March 30, 2008, 04:29 AM
Just get the CompC3. You don't need the waterproofing, you don't need the lens covers (you can buy them later for $15 each), you don't need the rubber cover, and with the CompC3 you get a free ring of the proper height.

MassMark
March 30, 2008, 02:22 PM
Wow...I haven't seen the prices on them lately. I bought mine when I bought my SOCOM-16 from Dan at West Texas Armory. Drop him a line and see what he can do.... www.westtexasarmory.com

kimberfan
March 30, 2008, 05:16 PM
Andrewsky

thats what i'm going to do seems how i cant afford a tripower

cheapest i can find a c3 for is $375 and my mount will be $112.

Andrewsky
March 30, 2008, 06:11 PM
What mount?

Don't Tread On Me
March 30, 2008, 06:25 PM
Tripower is nice due to the fact that you do not need a battery. It is super bright just being powered by sunlight or whatever light you have. In total darkness, it has the tritium. When you are in shade and do not have bright light above you, yet you are looking out toward a very brightly lit area - you hit the button and it uses the battery to illuminate eliminating the dreaded "washout" that MOST red dots suffer from (except EOtech and Aimpoint). Trijicon also has superior customer service over Aimpoint (dunno about EOtech). Trijicon will take care of you fast. Aimpoint is difficult to get a hold of, you usually get a machine, and they get back to you. Most fixes require shipping back to Sweden taking at least a couple months. Fortunately, they are one of the best and most never need any service ever.


Honestly, the absolute best price/performance red dot out there is the Aimpoint Comp C3. It's the same body and design as the M2 and M3 series, but it is a civilian version. What makes it civilian? Well, for one, it is rated at 17ft waterproof, vs. 75ft or more for the others. It doesn't come with flip up covers, nor does it have the adjustment cover tethers/lanyards. Compared to the M3, it also doesn't have the outer rubber body sleeve. Although, they sell these separately I've seen.

For all practical purposes, other than Navy SEAL use (scuba diving with it), it is just as tough as the others as it is the same thing. It has the same dot, same knob. Same 50,000 hour battery life. But you save at least $100 or more going with that. It should be perfectly fine for any kind of "combat" a civilian would see, whether it would be defense or TEOTWAWKI. It might even be useful for night vision devices as the first 3 settings are nearly invisible just like on the NV models, but I would NOT quote me on that - it may lack special coatings. Some people have said they had no problems with NV, however, that is internet hearsay.

If you want something more compact, look into the new micros by Aimpoint.


Going on an M1A, you will be pleased to find that the standard Aimpoint ring (comes with it) is the perfect method for mounting it (lowest). Whereas guys with AR-15's need to mount it higher adding costs by having to buy an expensive mount.

Andrewsky
March 30, 2008, 06:31 PM
Don't Tread on Me, that was an excellent write-up.

I want to clarify though. The CompC3 doesn't have the tethers that are attached to each other, but the caps itself have tethers that allow you to change windage and elevation without having to take the caps away from the sight.

Bwana John
March 30, 2008, 07:34 PM
I think you should not buy optics, but instead spend the money on ammo, and enjoy shooting the finest open sights in the world on your MBR.

kimberfan
March 30, 2008, 08:52 PM
Andrewsky

i'm just gonna get a springfield scout mount

http://www.springfield-armory.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=22_32&products_id=301

Dienekes
March 30, 2008, 09:32 PM
The TA33 3 X30 ACOG's eye relief is 1.90". Works fine in an SEI #2005 mount.

Andrewsky
March 30, 2008, 09:57 PM
I'd advise against that.

If I had my scout mount with me I'd send it to you for free along with my SAI handguard.

That's what I think of the SAI scout mount.

I'd much rather see you get an Ultimak. Even if it is heavier, it'll provide a much better platform for your optics and won't rub on your operating rod.

Don't Tread On Me
March 30, 2008, 10:26 PM
The TA33 3 X30 ACOG's eye relief is 1.90".

While that is exactly what Trijicon's site says, I and others have measured it to be more than that. It is a little over 3" of eye relief on that model (while still getting a max view). I don't know why it's labeled that way. Either way, ACOG simply won't work on a scout mount.

Andrewsky, You're 100% right. It doesn't have the M2/M3 style tethers, but it does have tethers that hold them to the optic so they do not get lost. I should have clarified. The thing is, people see the way the M2's is on the outside and it changes the look a little, whereas if you look at the C3, it isn't apparent - but it has them. The C3 does not have a tether to the battery compartment lid, only to the adjustment covers.

GunTech
March 31, 2008, 01:19 AM
The ultimak weight a pound? Wow, i love mine. It's the lowest rail I've found, is well made and fits well.

http://guntech.com/m14/ultimak.jpg

After taking out my AR topped with an Eotech, and finding the batteries dead yet again, i am seriously considering switching to the AimPoint CompML3 or CompM4 for all my rifles. I have one CompML3 thats been on at intensity '6' since I bought it when they fiorst came out just to see how long the battery will last. So far, so good. Life is supposed to be around 50,000 hours.

kimberfan
April 29, 2008, 11:11 PM
ok i just got my ultimak

and its ALOT lighter then i thought

i really like it.

now i just need to get a red-dot:rolleyes:

so its now down to

a burris fast-fire

or

Aimpoint micro H-1

the Aimpoint is a little pricey

but if i sell a guitar i can get it.

i really like the burris though

what do ya'll think?

Andrewsky
April 29, 2008, 11:34 PM
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=750331&t=11082005

That's what I have. It is absolutely awesome.

http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/image?saleitemid=750331

Aimpoint CompC3 2moa 1x.

It comes with an Aimpoint ring that will allow you to co-witness your iron sights with the Aimpoint. It is not "quick detach" but you don't need that because 1) The CompC3 will never fail, 2) You have a co-witness if it fails (it won't), 3) If it fails (it won't:D ) you can get it off in under 10 seconds.

Once I get the cash I'm going to get one for my M1A Standard too.:D

MTMilitiaman
April 29, 2008, 11:45 PM
While I am with Bwana John and personally enjoy the irons on my M1A, I would suggest a 2.5x EER scope. With a German #4 or Heavy Duplex reticle, it should be plenty fast, while offering a little added precision over the standard dot. Just a thought.

pgeleven
April 30, 2008, 12:01 AM
His character had an Aimpoint of some sort in Black Hawk Down, but I don't know if that was accurate or not.

about 60% of the Blackhawk Down movie was 'hollywoodized'. not a lot of it was real, just added for filler. a lot of products came out between the actual incident and the movie that were tested and practical for military use. in my opinion i do not think the delta snipers used aimpoints in somalia for their rifles. just a hunch

Andrewsky
April 30, 2008, 12:14 AM
about 60% of the Blackhawk Down movie was 'hollywoodized'. not a lot of it was real, just added for filler. a lot of products came out between the actual incident and the movie that were tested and practical for military use. in my opinion i do not think the delta snipers used aimpoints in somalia for their rifles. just a hunch

You're wrong.

Read this thread:

http://www.m14firinglineforum.com/upload/showthread.php?t=12924

Skim this thread:

http://www.onesixthwarriors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20145

Lee Emerson wrote this in his book "M14 Rifle History and Development:"

On October 03, 1993, U. S. military forces executed Operation Gothic Serpent in
Mogadishu, Somalia. During the mission, U. S. Army Special Forces Delta operators
Master Sergeant Gary Gordon and Sergeant First Class Randall Shughart volunteered to
leave the relative safety of the helicopter they were aboard to provide security for the
crew of the second downed Black Hawk UH-60 helicopter, Super Six-Four, of Task Force
Ranger. Gordon and Shughart fended off the hostile Somalis until all small arms
ammunition had been expended and they were fatally wounded. Their selfless actions
saved the life of the pilot, Chief Warrant Officer Four Michael J. Durant. Both men were
awarded the Medal Of Honor posthumously.
Sergeant First Class Shughart routinely carried the M14 in Somalia. On October 03,
1993, his M14 rifle was equipped with a leather sling and a dot sight. The stock was
painted with a desert camouflage pattern. Before landing on the ground to assist Super
Six-Four, Sergeant First Class Shughart had provided fire from his M14 rifle on the target
building and at both helicopter crash sites. The mission plan called for the two Delta
operators to remain airborne. Consequently, Gordon and Shughart, did not bring extra
quantities of ammunition. Shughart boarded the helicopter that afternoon with only seven
twenty round M14 magazines for the M14 and a Colt M1911 as a secondary weapon.
When Gordon and Shughart touched the ground at the second crash site, there was less
than 140 rounds left for the M14 rifle. Nonetheless, Sergeant First Class Shughart put
the M14 and the other weapons on the scene to good use. Chief Warrant Officer Four
Durant reported hearing a continuous discharge of firearms for about two minutes
immediately before Sergeant First Class Shughart was fatally wounded. The weapons of
both heroes were never recovered.

Check out my thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=359931

It's a pity that they didn't make BHD as accurate as possible. Still an enjoyable movie though.

Dienekes
April 30, 2008, 12:24 AM
Just looked at this today. There seems to be a little confusion about my earlier post re the 3 x 30 compact ACOG and its mount. It is on a Smith Enterprises mount specifically meant for rearward, normal eye relief mounting of the bigger 3.5X ACOG. Nothing to do with "scout" type stuff.

As for eye relief, it is pretty generous and forgiving. Will probably go for a Karsten adj. cheekpiece for the slight rise needed.

At the moment the rifle and the mount are down at Tempe getting fitted up. Then we will see.

Based on almost two years experience with the compact 1.5 unit on an AR I have high expectations for it on this platform.

H2O MAN
April 30, 2008, 12:28 AM
Dienekes

Will probably go for a Karsten adj. cheekpiece for the slight rise needed.

At the moment the rifle and the mount are down at Tempe getting fitted up. Then we will see.



Sounds good - you will love the SEI mount and installation.
Karsten does excellent work. Post pictures when it's done.

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