Surplus ammo being used in Iraq and Afghanistan


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wnycollector
March 27, 2008, 06:12 AM
I have been watching the ever increasing cost of surplus ammo and shaking my head. Like many of you I have heard the rumor that the US govenment was buying up surplus ammo for the war effort. Here is a VERY interesting article about how and where our tax dollars are going...enjoy!

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/27/world/asia/27ammo.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

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Halo
March 27, 2008, 09:18 AM
Wow. I'm glad to see the DOD is oh so diligent in checking out contractors before throwing hundreds of millions of dollars at them. That company absolutely reeks of sleaze.

Onmilo
March 27, 2008, 09:48 AM
I know there are stockpiles of Chinese and 'Albanian', (Yugoslavian), ammunition in Afghanistan that date from the 1960s.
It did not neccessarily come from the Contractor in question.
The Afghani Police Chief may or may not be in complete alliance with US Forces.
The actual ammunition received from the Americans may have been stockpiled or sold and the bad ammunition in question may have come out of in country sources.
He may or may not be trying to dump old stocks of ammunition already on hand and forcing the Americans to provide his district with more ammunition than was agreed to, be it for profit or greed.

The New York Times can be a very dubious source of interesting news.

Halo
March 27, 2008, 10:03 AM
My main concern from reading it wasn't so much the actual ammo, but that a fledgling company run by a handful of people, none over 30, with no military or international business experience, could land huge contracts with the Pentagon, seemingly without even a modicum of due diligence by the DoD.

BlackJack
March 27, 2008, 10:15 AM
My main concern is that the NY Times could be taking scraps of information out of context and filling in the gaps with lies in order to smear the country and the administration. The problem is there's no way to tell when the times is reporting and when it's propagandizing.

Jeremy2171
March 27, 2008, 10:17 AM
All the "contract" ammo I saw in Iraq was "as new" or new. Like for example I saw some x39 ammo that was commercially packed Golden Tiger brand stuff.

I also saw Yugo x39 and x54 aplenty over there.

glimmerman
March 27, 2008, 10:59 AM
The New York Times also is very good at makeing up false stories and downright lies to make stories too.:banghead:

TexasRifleman
March 27, 2008, 11:01 AM
My main concern from reading it wasn't so much the actual ammo, but that a fledgling company run by a handful of people, none over 30, with no military or international business experience, could land huge contracts with the Pentagon

Oh God Forbid the American entrepreneurial spirit work for someone under 30.

That's just wrong isn't it?

Bill Gates was a 19 year old college student when he founded Microsoft.

And how do you know there was no due diligence? Because the NY Times says so?

Seriously, that's gotta be the worst possible newspaper on the planet.

Rugerlvr
March 27, 2008, 11:04 AM
Does the ammo in that photo look like 7.62x54R to anybody else? Do the Afghans use Mosins?

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/03/27/world/27ammo_650.jpg

cpttango30
March 27, 2008, 11:06 AM
Ok the afgans are getting old ammo whats new. Just why are we worried about it? atleast the guy running the company is an AMERICAN.

I personaly would not believe half of what on the page in the NY Liberal Times.

Billy_H
March 27, 2008, 11:11 AM
Ok the afgans are getting old ammo whats new. Just why are we worried about it?

One reason I could think of would be that we have embedded trainers who are running missions with Afghan forces. If they are going to be fighting beside our men I sure don't want to knowingly give them bunk ammo.

If it's found that this contractor knowingly supplied ammo unfit for use I hope he gets his. And hopefully all this will at least prompt the DoD and military branches to take a closer look at some of their policies regarding contracts.

Jeremy2171
March 27, 2008, 11:20 AM
Does the ammo in that photo look like 7.62x54R to anybody else? Do the Afghans use Mosins?


It is x54....mostly looks like Russian light ball in good shootable condition. The Brass cased stuff is rough looking but I can't ID the country from the pic.

And yes there are Mosins there but they also have PKM and SVDs which use x54.

DMK
March 27, 2008, 01:24 PM
Does the ammo in that photo look like 7.62x54R to anybody else? Do the Afghans use Mosins?30cal machine guns.

7.62x54R is the Combloc equivalent to NATO 7.62x51 and used exactly the same way in similar type guns.

TexasRifleman
March 27, 2008, 01:39 PM
PK/PKM. 7.62x54R machine gun, very common. Afghanistan has LOTS of these.
There's a PKT with an electric trigger too, dunno if they use those. I think they are for vehicle mounting.
Picture stolen from Wiki :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/070501-F-8078V-198.JPG

Halo
March 27, 2008, 02:19 PM
Oh God Forbid the American entrepreneurial spirit work for someone under 30.

That's just wrong isn't it?
Bill Gates was a 19 year old college student when he founded Microsoft.

And how do you know there was no due diligence? Because the NY Times says so?

Seriously, that's gotta be the worst possible newspaper on the planet.

Well the 19 year old Bill Gates wasn't getting gigantic government contracts with a then-unproven company, either. Before the government coughs up hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars I would expect them to vet the contractor for reasonable assurance that they could in fact fulfill their contractual obligations. I've seen small towns check out asphalt and concrete bidders more thoroughly.

I'm inclined to believe there was no due diligence because the Czech government informed the American government that their contractor was dealing with a known arms smuggler who was already on "the list" and the American government allowed it to proceed. Whether or not that is morally right or wrong, the government was inconsistent with its own policies by doing so. Additionally, the terms of the contract should have been specific enough to assure proper storage and transportation of the ammo, at least to the same standard suppliers for American forces are held. That to me is another example of the government not being diligent in managing the contract.

I concede that all this is based on accepting the article at face value. If it's all concocted then the individuals mentioned should bring a libel suit against the Times. As for me, I'm not prepared to immediately discount it just because it appeared in the New York Times. Their allegations should be taken seriously and investigated.

Cosmoline
March 27, 2008, 02:35 PM
The Afghans still use M44's quite a bit as well as 91/30 snipers. The M44 is their dress rifle. All this time I could have been selling my stock of 54R at a 400% profit to the DOD. Who knew?

TexasRifleman
March 27, 2008, 02:36 PM
Before the government coughs up hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars I would expect them to vet the contractor for reasonable assurance that they could in fact fulfill their contractual obligations.

And the New York Times tells you otherwise so it must be true :)

That's the thing. This may very well all be true but wow, can you really believe THAT as the only source?

Of all the media outlets the NYT is absolutely the most dishonest.

Onmilo
March 27, 2008, 02:50 PM
PK and PKM machineguns are THE assault rifle in Afghanistan.
Much preferred and held in much higher regards than a simple AK.

A PK machinegun will feed grungy ammo such as that shown in the photo provided most of the verdigris is wiped off and the stuff still features primers that actually detonate.

JHansenAK47
March 27, 2008, 03:00 PM
I had some 80 something x54r Albanian rds and think they have the worst brass I have ever had. I had the base completely blow off one and several split at the shoulder that would definitly jam a semiautomatic weapon. Worst surplus x54r I have ever had. Maybe it was just my case but they sucked. If I was an Afghan and got that case of ammo to go fight with I would be pissed.

Halo
March 27, 2008, 03:13 PM
And the New York Times tells you otherwise so it must be true

That's the thing. This may very well all be true but wow, can you really believe THAT as the only source?

Of all the media outlets the NYT is absolutely the most dishonest.

Well I'm not going to dispute that the NYT might be fish wrap, but I also consciously try to avoid my plausibility litmus test being arbitrary and limited to the sources I usually agree with.

I wouldn't and don't trust it as my only source, but that goes for every other source too. I think there's a bit of an unwritten understanding on forums that the discussion of news articles is hypothetical in nature and, for the sake of argument, based on the assumption that an article is accurate (unless it's just very obviously false). That's how I've always interpreted it anyway.

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