[sundance44s]

I finally got through on the phone to USFA yesterday ..I had heard they were ready to take orders for the 1858 Remington and 1875 Remington .
They are indeed takeing orders for both guns the 1875 will be out end of July . The 1858 sometime in Aug . All the things we have heard about the price ...is right on ...the 1858 Price is 1,495.00 the 1875 is 1,895.00 ..
Well that ended my love affair for a USFA Remington...Uberti`s are looking better every day now ...I hope someone buys one and turns the cylinder on it ...They are non shooting safe queens to me .

[Old Fuff]

Well by August the dollar will be worthless, and you can afford the revolver - so long as you pay with someone else's currency. :rolleyes:

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

I wouldn't give $1495.00 for Wes Hardin's 1860 plus that chippie he shot that man hehind while he was laying there snoring....I'vd got my 58's hardened up on the inside and I'vd got good rifled barrels on them. They'll do me. I'm a good shot but they're still capable of shooting a lot better than I can shoot. I only shoot one of them anyway. The rest of them are just backups. About the only gun or gun part I'll ever buy from now on is maybe for the Cattleman's Carbine. I know of this company and they told me that they can replace the 18 inch barrel that came on it with a good rifled 24 incher. That is something I will have to think about. It sound's real nice and it probably is but I just can't decide if it's worth it to me. Probably not. It's easy to swing around and mess with now. If I get that longer barrel it might just mess up everything. I might fool around and get a good 18 incher to replace the one that's on there. I don't know. It's more accurate than I am right now just the way it is.
I wonder how many of those gun's they will sell? I know they're bound to sell a few but I just can't see them selling very damn many. I may be wrong but it just dosen't seem to me like the blackpowder market is that big as a whole all put together, much less when it's targeted at one individual handgun with that kind of price attached to it....Anybody check the price of a good Desert .357 or .44 Mag. here lately?

[Im283]

Those prices are crazy expensive. I don't care how wealthy I was I would not drop near two grand on a six shooter. Thats just nuts. I wonder how they stay in business if that is representative of their pricing.

[Old Fuff]

I wonder how they stay in business if that is representative of their pricing.

No problem. They aren't looking at people like us. The market they want is made up of wealthy collectors and some cowboy action shooters. The price of the gun includes braging rights, and that will draw in the got-to-have-it crowd.

Do remember that the prices we're looking at are the MSRP. What they sell for on the street may be different.

[luckytexan]

Those prices are crazy expensive. Thats just nuts. I wonder how they stay in business if that is representative of their pricing.

They stay in business because they make very high quality firearms. Those who purchase them apparently feel they are worth the price.

When you peruse this forum, you'll see a lot of questions and suggestions on how to improve a particular firearm. For the price you pay for a USFA, all of those improvements are already done.

Here's a link to a Gunblast article that quotes Hamilton Bowen, who makes quite a living tuning single-actions, saying that nothing needs to be done to USFAs. (The article is refering to their SAA, but it does give you an idea of the quality they put into their firearms.) http://www.gunblast.com/Cumpston_USFA-PreWar.htm

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Well, I'm not saying they're not real fine pieces. I'm sure they are, and I'm sure that to some people they are worth that price. I'm not saying that someone is crazy because they buy one of them. I'm just saying that's a lot of money to lay on the table for something you know nothing about other than what someone else said.
I know there are collector's who will grab up a few here and there. If a guy want's to collect, hell, let him or her go for it. I'm not arguing, I just see it different. My guns work. I only have about two that I shoot regularly and a '49 I use now and then. The rest are backups, not collector items. I don't lock my pieces in a safe or hang them on the wall to admire. I don't worry about the bluing wearing off from sliding in and out of the holster. I sit down now and then and re-blue them.
I don't do it very often because I use hot bluing and it last's a long time.
I don't know. It just seem's to me that if they sold at lower prices and did some advertising they could sell a lot more and still make good money because they'd be selling in volume.
Ya'll just wait and see. This won't last, not at anywhere near those prices. Pietta and Ulberti are making too many good shooting guns at much better prices. It won't even last near as long as the ROA lasted and in the scheme of things that wasn't very long.
So what? Of course the collector's will still have their's locked away in a safety deposit box somewhere but what damn good is it doing them or anyone else? They're not getting any damn use out of it. The only one who came out ahead here is the company that sold it to them. You buy a home, you live in it. You buy a car, you drive it. Who want's a gun you're afraid to shoot? Status symbol? s***. Security? Security is a good Walker or '58 tuned up good and riding in that holster loaded and capped and ready to go from one second to the next. I call that security....

[Mike OTDP]

The question is, how accurate are the USFA guns going to be...and how good the triggers. I might buy one...IF it can shoot with the top-of-the-line German guns.

Because $1500 is not at all out of line for a truly accurate gun.

[luckytexan]

GOC, I agree completely with your sentiments about how guns should be used and not locked up in a safe. (I'd make some exceptions for rare pieces that might belong in a museum, though.)

One of the things that draw me to firearms is how form follows function. Personally, I don't know that I'd buy their '58 Remingtion re-issue, but I'd love to have a USFA Pre-War Single Action Army. But I guarantee you it would get its fair share of use. To do no more than look at a firearm is to only appreciate it halfway.

Mike OTDP,
Because $1500 is not at all out of line for a truly accurate gun.
one would hope that for $1500, it would be truly accurate. Let's hope so.

[Old Fuff]

What we got here is a crisis of perspective. I don’t know about the rest of you, but in this particular undertaking the Old Fuff’s perspective goes way back to the late 1940’s. In those days there were no reproduction cap & ball revolvers, so everyone that shot them used an original 19th century gun. Fortunately at the time they were mostly affordable, especially those that were suffering a bit. Our bible was the Dixie Gun Works’ catalog that contained the necessary parts (including new-manufactured cylinders and barrels), tools, accessories, supplies and whatever to rebuild an old clunker. Even so, there were relatively few players in the game.

During the early 1960 the picture changed big time when the first Italian, Spanish and Belgian reproductions started to arrive. Most were a bit rough for shooting, but we were used to handing such minor inconveniences. It was a good thing too because about this same time collectors started moving the old gun prices through the roof. Without the foreign clones the game would have died off.

As time went by the Italian guns kept getting better, while more and more shooters discovered the fun they’d been missing. One thing remained the same. It was a common practice for users to do their own gunsmithing, and that remains true today.

Personally I welcome the arrival of an American made gun of the highest quality. Of course it’s going to be expensive, but best quality usually is. The USFA product may be too expensive for a lot of us, but that’s no reason to get a case of sour grapes. That fact is, none of the previous options has changed. Those guns we have been using are still available, and although the dollar’s plunge will increase the price of foreign imports I believe they will still be reasonably affordable. And for those that tinker and fix, Turner Kirkland’s Dixie Gun Works catalog is still around, and still just costs $5.00! Contrary to what some believe, Colt and Remington cap & ball revolvers are not very complicated, and tuning and fix’n does not require a degree in mechanical engineering.

Quite frankly, anybody who can still remember the 1940’s will tell you that today’s shooters are in Paradise compared to what it used to be. You new guys simply don't know what good is, nor how lucky you are to have what you do have.

So if you’re not in the market for a $1,500 gun, don’t grouse about it; instead go out and build a better one. If your chamber and bore are concentric, and the chamber diameter matches the bore, and you put on a higher front sight, your Italian clone will shoot far better then you can hold it. You really don’t need any more then that, and I’m not so sure the carriage trade gun can deliver any more useable accuracy, although it will offer the best possible cosmetics.

So go out and use what you have, and make the most of it. On many occasions the Old Fuff went out on the firing line, stood next to a shooter with the most expensive gun on the market, and shot his pants off with an economy model (tweeked or course). :evil: :cool:

Is there some reason you can’t do the same…?? ;)

[Perk]

Have to go with Old Fuff (Not Fluff, or some such – as I have, apologetically :o, spelt the name.)

Did Wild Bill go to the grave without a couple of engraved shooters at his side? Are not the best snipers availed of the most precise sniper-shooters available? And I mean, over the years – not, just lately.

As a suggestion, mind you: Wait until the stats come out, for these things. Then, see if it’s worth our soon-to-be-even-more-inflated dollars to buy one (or, the set). If not, wait a bit longer. Should other s decide in the negative, the distributors’ll have to reduce their prices. Otherwise, the iron’d be worth just that - lacking further sales.

Should it turn out that these things fire as pretty as they look; sell the farm and buy ‘em, if you’re of a mind.

Have got a truck that’ll pay for the cost of a set, myself. But, only if they turn out to be worth more’n the work value of said truck.

As the man says: You… make the call!

[Bad Flynch]

Well, for everyone that is concerned about the price of USFA revolvers, here is my take.

Two weeks ago, I walked into a gun shop and saw a USFA Single Action. It was their top of the line model, but nothing fancy, except that it was nickel plated. The caliber was .45 Colt.

I have shot a large number of different single-actions, including a Colt cavalry model built in 1876, Hammerlis, Dakotas, Ubertis, Uberti/Cimarrons, Rugers, and Colts, to name a few. I have this thing about SAAs.

Here is both the good and the bad news: The USFA is the best SAA-type firearm of the Colt design that I have every handled, and it came home with me immediately. Colt should learn to do so well.

If the 1858 is built like The Single Action, it will be worth every penny of the price.

[Old Fuff]

Did Wild Bill go to the grave without a couple of engraved shooters at his side?

Actually no...

He was buried with a Smith & Wesson No. 2 Old Army, with a tip-up barrel and chambered in .32 RF. That and a sporterized .45-70 Springfield rifle. Neither might have been his. One of his famous pair of ivory-stocked and engraved 1851 Navies is in a museum in California. The whereabouts of the other one is unknown.

[Im283]

I am not grousing about the cost of this gun. If you have the money and are so inclined to spend it on this then by all means have at it. God Bless you for it.

Personally I don't see, really can't begin to justify, spending this kind of cake for most any fire arm. For 1500 bucks I could buy three or four quality single action pistols.

Maybe they are worth it but I really don't see how.

[pohill]

I doubt very much that the USFA execs decided to make such a gun with the hopes that someone would buy some of them. I'm sure they researched the market beforehand, and they know exactly what they're doing. You don't have to buy a Jaguar or Mercedes if you can't afford one, but it's good to know they're out there if you can. These guns will sell well, and increase in value over time.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Well, accuracy will be the major test.
I'm sure the cosmetics will be of the highest order. I'm sure they will have smooth actions and all.
I just want to make sure here that everybody understand's that I am not bitching or complaining.
But what I do want to see is how accurate this thing is. I'm not worried. I know I'll be hearing all about it.
It's my contention here that you can take a Pietta or Uberti straight out of the cardboard box that it come's in, and take the USFA straight out of the gold and platinum and ruby encrusted box that it come's in; and take two average shooters and stand them on the firing line. Then check the targets at 25, 50, 75, and 100 yards. (we'll stop here at 100 yards because this is not the Walker we're talking about)
I don't think you would see very much difference....

[sundance44s]

Well the way I was seeing it ...Ruger built the best built cap and ball revolver ever made , they could have just as easily have made a copy of the 1858 Remington ..but they didn`t they chose to improve on the design ...and they used good quality american steel ....they sold alot of ROA`s and those will be around for a long time ....They priced their ROA such that they would be great shooters not safe queens ..I will probally never know anyone that buys the USFA 1858 Remington , much less shoots the heck out of one ....so high Quality sits in a gun safe somewhere never to see the light of day ..This is sad to me ...I wanted to see these guns in the hands of cowboy action shooters ..giveing them a real work out ..like they have the Itilian copys .
maybe one day if they don`t sell so well USFA will drop the price like they did on the 1873 clone they call the Rodeo ..heck it`s down too 550.00 these day MSVR price ...I`ve got a Uberti 1873 clone that cost 435.00 ...awful close to the price of the USFA Rodeo ...These USFA Rodeo`s are getting a real work out on the cowboy action market place too.

[bigbadgun]

I think USFA priced those things so they can keep them, they dont really want to sell any of them, as they will soon see. Maybe then the prices will come down so as us poor working folk can buy some of them fansy new toys.
:banghead::cuss:

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Yeah, it is a little sad that many of the people who buy them will be people who dosen't really appreciate them.
I guess I could ease around and buy one. Fifteen hundred dollars is not the end of the world.
I don't figure I need to. I'vd had the internal parts hardened and tuned up on my '58's and I'vd had the barrels changed and I'vd got a lot of trust and confidence in them. They shoot good as hell.
I'vd got some money in them but it's over an extended period of time and to me it's not the same thing as just plunking down around $1600.00 or so and saying: "I'll tak'er"!
What the hell did you 'take'? You have no way of really knowing. It may be months down the line before you really know. You may not have the occasion to ever know.
But, although I hasten to add here that I know it's none of my business and I don't try and pretend that it is, I hate to see people waste money on something they really have no use for and don't need. Or even worse, to buy it so they can use it as a staus symbol or for bragging rights. What the hell they got to brag about? If they would work and practice and skin their hand's up and really learn how to shoot the sonofab**** they wouldn't have to brag. Other people would do their bragging for them if that's what they were looking for.
I'm glad it's finally getting on the market though. I really am. It's long overdue.
But it still has to be adjusted and tuned up to suit the individual if they are really into shooting. It just may not need quite as much.
Anyway, I'm glad it's on the market although on the bottom line that sure amount's to a lot of food for some hungry people in this country just laying up in a safety deposit box somewhere or hanging on a wall in the hope's that somebody will see it and be jealous or impressed....

[Old Fuff]

Yeah, it is a little sad that many of the people who buy them will be people who doesn't really appreciate them.

Oh they will appreciate them, but not necessarily the same way you do. You would shoot the revolver into the ground and have a great time doing it. They may be satisfied showing it off to friends and associates. Different people, different ways.

Sometimes I see someone drive by in an expensive luxury car, or maybe a snazzy sport model. Am I impressed? Well sometimes yes, but often no. I drive a car to get from point "A" to point "B". If it gets me there I’m satisfied. On the other had the person driving the expensive transportation is sending out signals that the “have it” and can flaunt the fact. But my receiver is usually turned off so their effort is wasted.

I suspect my most immediate reaction to the USFA Remington will be to figure out how to make an equal but more accurate revolver for much less money. If I don’t get to own the “high priced spread” the sky won’t fall.

I’m sure that some of them will get a work out. A lot of SASS competitors are not exactly living on food stamps. I am also sure that when the dust settles some of the well-heeled cowboys will sometimes watch someone with less expensive hardware take home the trophy. In the end it’s always the skill of the person behind the gun that counts. ;)

[apachejack]

Maybe some people think of having fun with them and reselling them. The guns will always be worth what was given for them unless they are mistreated very badly (kind of doubt it at that price). It's really a choice like having a Les Baer or a Rock Island Armory, they both shoot but the resell is quite different. I have shot USFA guns and they are very smooth and accurate and I would rather buy one of those than have to have a gunsmith work on a cheaper gun and have it cost me close to the same price and then the resell comes in to play. The USFA will get its dues while the cheaper gun will get its same price without the work done it. Just something to think about and I love reading everyones opinions.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Old Fuff Good morning..
ApacheJack, what you say is true only in one sense of the word.
Why would someone want to re-sell it?
I know I chose my pieces very carefully knowing ahead of time about what I wanted to have done to them. I feel a great sense of loyalty toward's Pietta for their '58 and for their carbine. Far more loyalty than I feel toward Remington although they're the one's who actually developed and produced the piece originally.
Like my Cougar. I fine tuned it. Got rid of the radio/cassette player that came in it and put in an Alpine CD/Radio stereo system. Hard wired my scanner and HAM radio and Galaxie into the car's electrical system. Changed out the 130 amp alternator that came in it and replaced it with a 230 amper and changed out the wiring harness so it could handle the power. Several things like that. I didn't fine tune the car to get rid of it.
I didn't have work done on my Pietta's with the idea that later on I would get rid of them.
I plan on keeping them for the rest of my life.
To me 'Remington' is just the model name of a Pietta gun just like .44 Colt Walker is the model name of a gun that Uberti make's.
In my mind Colt and Walker and Remington dosen't even enter into the picture other than just being names that Pietta and Uberti decided to call a particular model of firearm they were producing and selling.
It may sound disloyal to some people but I feel a great sense of loyalty toward both Pietta and Uberti....

[arcticap]

Just look at the prices of fine German, Italian, Austrian or Swiss Olympic quality target pistols, whether they're rimfire, center fire, percussion or air pistols. They usually all cost well over $1000, and most of these makers have been in business for a generation or more.
On the other hand USFA is a relatively new outfit with a new facility and equipment, and they've had to struggle just to survive.
They employ competent people with gunbuilding experience who take a lot of pride in their work and earn a fair wage, and we all know that everyone is just trying to make a living while producing a good product that's competitive in the current world marketplace.
I hope that they can export more of their USA made products abroad.
When I see a new desirable & expensive model car come onto the marketplace, I know that it will become more affordable in the used marketplace if I still want one later on.
I'm also surprised to see that they entered into a licensing agreement with Remington Arms itself to produce some of their historical guns.
USFA has tried to build products in the tradition of the original Colt Company, and now with a 100% American product built from scratch.
I think that they should really be applauded more for their effort to build their products well than they should be criticized for their prices.
I also wonder if the Italian guns are actually licensed by Remington and if they could be anywhere near as good for twirling? :D

April 13, 2007
For Immediate Release:
NRA 200 7
History Making Ag re e m e n t — Remington, America’s Oldest Gunmaker
founded in 1816, enters into agreement for gun production with USFA ---
under Historic “ E. Remington & Son’s ” Licensing
U.S. Fire Arms Mfg. Co. (USFA) in Hartford, CT, and Remington (R.A. Brands) in Madison, N.C.,
today proudly announce that after extensive research, market study and engineering, Remington,
for the first time in its long 191 year history, has Licensed USFA for a line of the famous
E. Remington & Son’s historic product line - 100% made in USA.
Originally produced by E. Remington & Son’s in Ilion New York since 1816, this licensing
agreement recognizes USFA as the leader in historic gun production. The first planned models
will be the popular 1858 and 1875 models.
The New 1858 Model percussion revolver will be available as historically correct in 2 barrel
lengths (5-1/2”and 7-1/2”), 2 calibers (.36 Cal, .44 Cal), and 3 finishes (Armory Blue, Armory Blue
with bone case color frame, and bright nickel). The entire menu of custom options available with
our standard line will be available for the Remington's such as; engraving, gold and silver plate,
ivory, stag and other grips, etc.......

http://www.usfirearms.com/pdf/Press_Release_Remington_USFA.pdf


http://www.usfirearms.com/

[Rachen]

I always prefer my pair of Pietta 58's. The Piettas are amongst the smoothest revolvers I ever handled, and the ones that I have feels almost like a Ruger Old Army when they are cocked. If one don't know much about percussion revolvers, they might even think that they are powered by coil mainsprings.

Does anybody know why the USFA models are so unusually expensive??

[arcticap]

I can only guess that in part, it's because they are making their own frames and parts rather than importing them, their guns have impeccable finishes and their action parts are hand fitted & tuned.
They have an in-house staff on the payroll that can produce all of the custom options that they offer.
Their overall production volume probably isn't very high.
Plus CT is a state where taxes and the overhead & labor costs of experienced workers is above the national average.
Who knows what role the licensing agreement with Remington involves? :)

[Im283]

earn a fair wage

define a fair wage.

I am just saying I would not pay that for a revolver. I would not pay that for any pistol.

I can buy something that to me is just as good and not pay an exorbitant price.

The money bridge would not be impossible to gap. Like CoT says about not paying that for Wes Hardin's revolver. Heck not even for Wild Bill's revolver. (which I learned today on Wild West tech was not a cap and ball 1851 while he was in Deadwood, but rather a cartridge conversion model)

[Perk]

He was buried with a Smith & Wesson No. 2 Old Army, with a tip-up barrel and chambered in .32 RF. That and a sporterized .45-70 Springfield rifle. Neither might have been his. One of his famous pair of ivory-stocked and engraved 1851 Navies is in a museum in California. The whereabouts of the other one is unknown.

Was actually going for a figure of speech, there. But, thanks for the clarification.

Whaddya expect from someone, who admits to having screwed up in spelling a name, containing four whole letters? :D

[Timthinker]

I wonder how the accuracy of the USFA Remington compares to that of some European target models such as the Pedersoli Remington. The latter has a track record we can examine, while the former does not. While we are on the subject of accuracy, who manufactures the most accurate caplock revolver on the market today? My gut feeling is USFA will not win that prize. That honor may go to Feinwerkbau, Hege or Pedersoli. Incidentally, the three European manufacturers I mentioned do not produce inexpensive guns, and their prices will increase as the dollar declines in value.


Timthinker

[Im283]

Perk, was you comment directed at my Wild Bill comment? Not that it matters, but I always thought he had only percussion revolvers, I found it interesting they claimed today that he had converted models.

[Old Fuff]

I found it interesting they claimed today that he had converted models.

I don't think that he did.

He had a known aversion to early metallic cartridges of that time, because they were often duds. He went to some lengths to fire, clean and reload his revolvers each day. Explaining this to a friend he said, “When I pull I must be sure.”

One revolver of the famous pair of ivory stocked and engraved 1851 Navy Colts is now in the Gene Autry Western Heritage Museum in Los Angeles, California; and still in its original percussion form. The location of the other revolver, if it survived, is unknown.

[Im283]

thats what I though as well Fuff. The episode of WWT this morning was the first time I have heard he had cartridge guns in Deadwood. I do not want to doubt your wisdom, makes me really wonder which is true.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

This site has helped me pass a lot of time the last couple of days, especially today.
I don't know if this is true or not (I have good reason to believe that it is true) but I have read that it was a .36 that he shot his deputy and friend with that night. Evidently it wasn't so much that he had such bad eyes at that time as it was that it was dark and he was in the process of a sort of running gunfight in town there at the time. He saw a man (it turned out to be his deputy and close friend) way down at the other end of town and he must have thought it was one of them.
It was a long shot he made, and get this.
Cap and Ball. Must have had plenty of grease over those balls or else he just wasn't thinking. He was holding the .36 in his right hand. He raised his left hand up in front of his face and rested the gun barrel over his left arm to steady the shot. When he walked over there and saw that it was his best friend he went kind of crazy. Started yelling and cursing and made everybody get off the street under threat of being shot on the spot. He never did get the men whom he was originally looking for, who had come to town looking for him. (Over the next few days some of the townspeople measured the distance of that shot. It was an extremely difficult shot to make) At least there were a couple of them he didn't get.
I'vd got a couple of pictures around here somewhere of him wearing glasses. (spectacles) They had to be mailed to him from back east somewhere. Pennsylvania I want to say.
Some of the whores he ran with a lot said he didn't like to wear them because he was so vain.
I guess he was a product of his times. He kept the law alright in his own way, but today he would still be considered a cold blooded killer which I guess on the bottom line is what he really was.
Wes Hardin was the only man to ever back him down that anybody today know's about. Hardin was in town off a cattle drive and they had a few words. Wild Bill didn't want any part of Hardin. Hardin was drunk and discharged his firearm in town. Wild Bill waited until Hardin's gun was back in his holster and then walked up to Hardin with his hand on his own gun and told Hardin he wanted his gun until he left town and headed back toward the herd. Then, just that fast, Wild Bill found himself looking right into the muzzle of that 1860 and he decided he didn't want Hardin's gun after all. He turned and walked away and Hardin hurried up and got out of town before Wild Bill showed up again with some of his shotgun toting deputies. Wild Bill was damned lucky Hardin didn't shoot him on the spot. I'm sure Wild Bill knew that to. I'd be willing to bet that when Wild Bill was walking away his ass**** was drawn up so tight you couldn't have driven a watermelon seed up it with a sledgehammer.
If I come across those photographs I will post them....What I typed here did not come out of a damn movie or cheap pocket novel....

[Old Fuff]

I do not want to doubt your wisdom, makes me really wonder which is true.

I won't take any offence if you do… ;) :D

That one-of-a-pair, 1851 Navy revolver is in the Autry museum on public display.

So far as I know, no specific mention of any particular firearms Wild Bill was carrying the day he was killed has come down to us, and is possible (but not likely) he was unarmed. If he was armed he didn’t have a chance to draw because he was shot from behind. He might or might not have been carrying the little .32 tip-up Smith & Wesson he was buried with, but he was unquestionably buried with it, because it and a sporterized .45-70 Springfield were found in the grave when his remains were disinterred in 1879.

I have no idea what evidence the Deadwood movie/TV company offered to support they’re contention that Hickok (correct spelling) had cartridge converted revolvers, and so far as history knows he was not involved in any shootings in Deadwood; and unlike during his Kansas days he wasn’t giving public or news media marksmanship demonstrations. However given the recent introduction of Italian reproductions of Colt cartridge conversions that can fire metallic cartridge blanks, I can understand why they might try to sell that story. Firing blanks in true cap & ball revolvers would be far more difficult. :uhoh:

[Im283]

moved this to a new thread, this was over the border of hi-jacking a thread

sorry

[Old Fuff]

Yup, after I posted I started to think the same thing...

You were right, and pardon the pun: made a good move. :evil:

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

I also appologize for getting off topic. I do appologize....

[mike101]

"The 1858 sometime in Aug . All the things we have heard about the price ...is right on ...the 1858 Price is 1,495.00 the 1875 is 1,895.00 ..
Well that ended my love affair for a USFA Remington...Uberti`s are looking better every day now ...I hope someone buys one and turns the cylinder on it ...They are non shooting safe queens to me ."

I'm with sundance on this one. After all, most gun-owners don't know what the hell an 1858 Remington is. I don't think too many people are going to be willing to pay anywhere near that much for one.

Hell, you could buy an Uberti or Pietta, send it to Armsport or Raven's Roost, and have it remanufactured into a 1869 Rolin-White Army or Navy Cartridge Conversion, including rehardening and hand-fitting of internals, and refinishing, for less money.

I was thinking it would come in around the same price as a ROA, which would be expensive enough, but $1500 is just crazy talk.

If they can sell the Rodeo for $550, why can't they make a '58 Remmie somewhere in that ballpark? I don't think they'll sell enough of them to justify cost of production. Hence, I think they're going to lose their shirts on this one. I don't think it's going to be around very long. :(

Those second and third generation Colt Colts are starting to look real reasonable at this point.

[Old Fuff]

There are folks on this forum that buy 1911 Colt-style .45 pistols for more then $1,600. Reproduction Winchester 1873 and '76 rifles sell well in that price range. So do the better reproductions of Sharps rifles. Performance Center custom revolvers from S&W are selling for close to or more then $1,600, and Colt continues to sell their Single Action Army.

Ya' have to face up to it... Some people do have the money... ;)

[Im283]

Some people do have the money...

It must be nice Fuff. If I had 1600 to plunk down on a gun I would probably take it and buy something like a quad for my grandson. But then again whoever plunks that dough down on a gun can probably afford to buy the quad and the gun.

Being broke has its drawbacks, lol

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

It may come down to a 'built to order' type of situation. You want the gun, you put your order in and pay up front. Allow 6 weeks to 1 year for delivery. That sort of thing.
Mike 101, I agree with you. I have been trying to find out what percentage of the 300 million or so Americans in this country are into blackpowder period. I haven't arrived at a definitive percentage point yet but I'm far enough along to be able to tell you that it is a very small percentage indeed.
Most of that small percentage opt for a good rifle. The percentage left over that opt for a revolver are very, very small.
Look here, the number of 'cowboy action shooters' and people like us who like to shoot the blackpowder revolvers all added together does not amount to a flea on a dog's ass. Of the people like us who shoot the revolvers..how many of us are deep enough into it to be willing to get into our checking account, or the children's college fund, or whatever to buy one of them at that price? Especially when there's already so many other good things around the house and concerning their family that the money could be used for?..Not very damned many, I'll guarantee you that.
As far as the collectors go, yeah, there may be a tiny few here and there but most of the collector's are looking for old guns. They're not looking to drop their money on a gun that 'just came out yesterday' so to speak.
I will be watching this s***. I guarantee you that I will be.
USFA won't really get hurt. They're like Rolls Royce. "Hey, you pay us the money, we'll build you the car". But they are going to find that very, very few people are willing to do that.
There's another factor at play here also.
Pietta and Uberti (Pietta mostly) used to build crap. Not any more. Over the last several years they have gotten their head and ass wired together and are turning out some fine products at a much lower price. The American dollar is down some now but it won't stay down. However, even while it's down, Pietta and Uberti still have good prices.
You're right on something else to. You can get your Pietta or Uberti fine tuned and fixed up for less money than USFA's asking price. Plus, you can get it done some at a time instead of laying all the money out at one time and hoping for the best.
I'm not exactly a dumb sonofab**** and I could trot out some more stuff here, but I'm just going to pour myself a cup of coffee and make a couple of fried egg sandwiches and let it all slide on by....

[Old Fuff]

Being broke has its drawbacks, lol

True, but my Daddy told me that brains and skill can often get one to where they want to get, money not withstanding. He also pointed out that a fool and his cash are often soon parted... :scrutiny: ;)

I don't begrudge those that have the means going out any buying the USFA revolver, and I'm not going to loose any sleep over it. If anything I consider it to be a challenge. Cap & ball revolvers are not particularly complicated, and what is necessary to wring out the best possible accuracy is well known – at least to old timers. If shooting is the name of the game I don’t particularly care if the barrel says “Remington & Sons … “ on the top.

Some years ago Numrich Arms (the gun parts company) put out a very inexpensive caplock under-hammer rifle. Being basically evil, I delighted in taking one to local muzzleloading matches and outshooting others with far more expensive equipment. Money didn’t always = trophies.

It is clear that a number of our members are disappointed – or maybe outraged – that this revolver that they wanted so badly is beyond them because of the cost. But I have learned over a long lifetime that this can often be the case, and concerning many things. But when it happens I remember my Daddy’s wise advise. Rather then get grumpy I coped with whatever I had, and almost always came out O.K.

In this case the proof of the pudding is where the holes are in the target, not the name on the barrel. Never forget that. The best revolver is the one that produces the tightest groups, and who made it and how much it costs really doesn’t matter. ;) :)

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Old Fuff, good morning..
Your Daddy was a pretty smart man..Mine was to.
Tight groups or a dead rabbit show the detail's on what really counts.
It took me about 9 years I guess, but little by little I got it all done without hurting myself money wise on other stuff I wanted to do, and I have some of the most accurate barrels that can be had on my Pietta's and that's the truth. I even paid an engraver they recommended an extra $100.00 per gun to put Pietta's name and proof marks on the barrel just exactly how they were when I first bought them from Cabela's. Even the Target Model my sister gave me this last Christmas. The only difference on the outside of each barrel is that next to 'Made In Italy' there
is a five pointed star that stand's for 'perfect barrel'. I don't know if they're really perfect or not but they are supposed to be and I was assured they were, each time, one gun at a time.
They're just old blackpowder revolvers. Not worth a lot of money. They're just worth a lot to me.
I agree with you about how disappointing it must be to some THR and other forum members (I'vd never been to another forum) who have their heart's set on owning one. They'll get it worked out.
But like I stated on a previous post here yesterday, I can't help it. Uberti and later Pietta is what I started with. I feel a great sense of loyalty toward both of them, so I guess that whatever USFA (whom I'd never even heard of until just a few months ago on this site) does is really nothing to me.
Just like the ROA. I don't want one of them but I wish they had kept it in production. You see what happened to them behind their high prices....

[Old Fuff]

Actually, if the truth were known, there isn't anything wrong with Pietta or Uberti barrels. If there is a problem (and often there isn't) it's one or both of two things:

1. The chambers are undersized for the bores. This was very common in past years, but they are much improved today, and reaming the chambers isn't very difficult if it's required. A bigger issue may be finding the correct size balls for the reamed chambers. But if you cast your own there is nothing to worry about.

2. The chamber is not concentric with the bore. The answer for a .44 revolver is to buy a .36 caliber cylinder (available only for Remington clones) and line bore the chambers out to .451" (or whatever). This would take a more expensive set-up, but I believe one of these days someone will offer it.

In recent years both Italian makers have retooled with better equipment, and Uberti has the financial power of Beretta behind it. I have a hard time understanding why some people think they are making inferior guns...

Because the truth is they aren't, and they keep getting better.

[classicballistx]

Clearly, the USFA boys know how to make a piece of work that appeals to the well heeled seeker of replica steel. The price point they choose for their merchandise seems to be directed to the "gotta-have-it" guy whose budget won't allow a guild gun, but doesn't find him in the big box mailorder catalogs, either.

How many of these guns are actually going to be shot enough by seriously competent marksmen to prove how really good they are seems questionable - to me, anyway.

The case with the Feinwerkbau Rogers & Spencer and the very special Italian made '58 Hege "Maximum" is quite different. In the European marketplace, you can buy the equivalent gun in wall hanger aestheics for a pretty penny, alright. And it's a really wonderful bit of workmanship. But when you go to buy the ones that shoot, and that is to say the one's you would expect to wind a class at the MLIAC, you will pay about three times as much. There's about as much reason to own one of these and keep it in a cabinet as there is for owning a field-trial blood pointer to take for walks on a leash. The folks that buy them do so because they shoot them, seriously, and a lot.

Now, do the match grade Hege's shoot into 1/3 the group size of their aesthetic twins? Likely, not. It would take a careful expert quite a long time with a Ransom rest to even give a competent estimate of marginal benefit. What we all know is that different folks have different definitions of what constitutes great shooting, even in the 97th percentile crowd that can really know the difference.

The point is that you will pay about the same for one of the Euro match guns (http://www.vorderlader.com/vorderlader/perkussionsrevolver.html for example) as USFA seems to be getting for its '58. The '58 Maximum and R&S will set you back around €1000 or about $1500 USD. And these are proven, very proven guns. Just like if you shoot air- or free- pistol, you're not going to find what you need at Walmart or Bass Pro Shop.

Will someone make the world medalist grade shooting a USFA replica? Well, unless USFA wants to sponsor a squad of world class marksmen, we won't know. And USFA has enough of a market without doing that. That's why you won't see them staking anything on performance.

Now, if you want to know just how good you can be shooting a percussion revolver on this side of the big water and you're not committed to the byzantine foolishness of handicapping for the sake of looking like something in a Matthew Brady print, you can sure find out. Just get a Ruger Old Army and that's not just us tooting the horn. The why of it ought to be obvious to even the casual observer. What went into into making a ROA, even the ones made after 4:30 on Thursdays, is head and shoulders better suited to pure accuracy precision and the logistics of high scores or small groups in the real world of hands and eyes than anything but the match grade Europeans. And with precious little work, a tuned ROA will shoot better, really. That's that.

If you're not planning on taking a gun to Adelaide in August, save your chips for Swiss powder and good lead. The ROA wins the day here, hands down. Not just us talking, either, but we believe in X's, steel rams knocked over, and hogs that don't take extra steps, and guns that don't give up after the first thousand rounds. I doubt we'll ever know that USFA's lovely, pricey gun can live up to that. If you aren't concerned about such things, well there are a lot of shiny historic replicas that go bang for less money and trouble, and that's okay if that's what you want.

That's what I know, anyway.

Wisent
classicballistx.com

[Old Fuff]

For what it's worth, I agree with the above observations, but I didn't go into the Ruger Old Army because it is about to become a moot point. That being the case I focused on Remington style reproductions. It has been generally acknowledged in past threads that while the Old Army was an excellent (and probably superior) revolver the market was more focused on 19th century reproductions.

I would note that a brand-new Old Army has been listed twice on Gunbroker, and so far not gotten a single bid. I find this to be surprising given that opportunities are about to run out, but anyway if anyone is interested here is a link, and I will recommend the seller as being honest.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=95756698

[Timthinker]

Classicballistx, thank you for addressing a question I posted about the accuracy of the USFA Remington. I also doubt that it will perform on the level of the match grade European pistols, but I may be wrong. That said, I think a useful idea-and a potential thread-is how to convert a Remington style caplock into a highly accurate target pistol. Old Fluff and others have some good ideas on this topic, and I believe the time has come to explore them.

I also agree with your assessment of the ROA. Thanks again.


Timthinker

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Not anything hard about that and you don't have to get it all done at one time. Or, you can let them hold the gun and do work on it as you pay them.
I'm not a gunsmith and I know a few people who call themselves gunsmiths that are not gunsmith's either.
Get the internal parts hardened and polished and make sure the trigger break's at whatever poundage he/she and you agree on. Not what your your buddy tell's you that you need. Your buddy is not the one shooting the damn gun.
Have a rifled barrel built from stock. Not just any old rifled barrel. You want that barrel perfect. Let them rifle it out with lands and grooves the way they explain to you that it need's to be for the ultimate accuracy with your swaged round lead ball.
Don't try and tell the gunsmith how to do his job. Tell them what you want and then leave them alone. If you'vd got some good people, they'll have a lot of pride in their work. If you try to tell them that so and so said do it this way or that way, they'll hand the piece back to you and tell you that maybe you need to get so and so to do the work.
When he and/or she get's through (it may take them months. It may not. It mostly just depend's on how long it take's them to get a barrel right and what their work load is) you will have something. Everything will be right. The distance between the forcing cone and the front of the cylinder, the way the cylinder mouth line's up with the forcing cone or with the barrel, however you want to say it.
It will give you a lot of pleasure knowing that good people are fixing up your piece.
It will cost you some money but it's over a period of time. It's a lot easier than just plunking down a lot of money at one time up front and then going home and worrying yourself to death about whether you got screwed or not.
No one really need's to do all of that unless they just want to or feel they need to. Most of the time the revolvers right out of the box will shoot all the squirrels or hogs you need with no problem.
But then again, truthfully, if you do shoot a right smart you will be able to tell the difference for sure....

[Mike OTDP]

I might get one of the USFA guns...but if I do, I fully intend to have a talk with them first, as I want a full match gun.

Because I AM going to Adelaide.

By the way, the Hege match guns WILL shoot the tight groups. I've been shooting one for fifteen years, and it is like trading a Ruger Mk II for a Hammerli 208.

[classicballistx]

Mike -

I should have figured the exception would surface!

For those of you who don't know it, if you want to represent your country in the interest of competition at the world level in muzzleloading shooting competition, this is your point man.

For those of you who want to know if the USFA product can stand up, you may read from the pen (...er, keyboard) of the one person I've ever corresponded with who can validate the answer. He's probably more humble than to admit it, though.

I hope a U.S. shooter with an American made product can do the trick. Call it patritoism if you like.

Good luck, Mike! And I hope you can recruit some folks to travel in your company and compete at your level!

Wisent

P.S. I still think the MLIAC is byzantine...

[Rachen]

I'll bet that the USFA model probably have progressive rifling, gain twist, like the Dixie Gun Works' "Shooters" revolver by Pietta.

[Old Fuff]

I'll bet that the USFA model probably have progressive rifling, gain twist, like the Dixie Gun Works' "Shooters" revolver by Pietta.

I wouldn't bet on it, especially on their regular production models. Why? Because the original Remingtons didn't have this feature, and I don't think that international target shooters are part of their targeted market. However they might build a special gun for some special shooters, but I don't want to think about what it would cost.

Excluding the combat shooting and cowboy games, most if not all of the top U.S. shooters that compete at international levels usually use European firearms. :(

[Rachen]

Excluding the combat shooting and cowboy games, most if not all of the top U.S. shooters that compete at international levels usually use European firearms.

In that case, Pietta will probably be the sole competitor with USFA, and with these prices, I think USFA would have to change it's rates, since the Piettas are also excellent. They handle good, look good, and shoot good. According to Dixie, the "Shooters" revolver did win many top level competitions since it was first built in the 1980s.
The regular Pietta 1858s, the ones built for heavy duty work in the fields or woods, are just as excellent, just minus the progressive gain twist. However, they are still as accurate as you want them to be.
Also in the Blackpowder Annual magazines, most Cowboy Action Shooters use Italian replicas for the heavy duty work. There was one article by Mr. Peterson where he talked about using cartridge conversions in both the .36 and .44 1858s'.

For such a high priced revolver such as the USFA Remmie, I would think that most people who would get that revolver would most likely keep it as a display piece instead of a shooting piece.

[sundance44s]

Geeze all I was wanting was an American made 1858 Remington , made from 4110 steel equal in quaility as the ROA....The only problem I`ve ever had with the repro pistols made in Itiliay is the soft steel they use . Like I said Ruger did it .R&D and Kirst use 4110 makeing the conversion cylinders , and they are made in the USA ..After makeing mods on several of my Itiaian pistols , cutting the barrels down like going through , cold butter .I`m sure most of you have seen the Colt open tops with the dents and dings around the wedge ...Trust me I`ve bought several used and those dents and dings can be sanded out ....too easy . like wood working . Then again ..there are alot of modern fire arms out there ..like the m16 ..composite metal frame and a stock ,made by a toy company . They have just never appealed to me ..I like firearms that feel like they are built well ...not because I read some where they are .

[Old Fuff]

The Old Fuff has gone to some lengths to point out that both major Italian makers do indeed turn out quality guns at affordable prices. They could be better, but then they’d be more expensive and people would complain about that. The materials they use are more then equal to that used in the original guns, and I seldom examine an old cap & ball Colt that doesn’t have dings around the barrel wedge.

There has been a lot of discussion concerning accuracy on this thread, but I wonder how many shooters can handhold and shoot one of these revolvers and produce groups that might be smaller then what the revolver is capable of in a machine rest? Unquestionably the best of the European match revolvers will out perform an out-of-the-box Uberti or Pietta, but how many members discussing the issues can shoot well enough to take advantage of the difference?

I highly doubt that any American manufacturer is going to tool up and produce the revolver that Sundance would like to see, because the market is too small and at the price some would expect (or at least want) they’d go broke. Ruger dropped the Old Army because sales didn’t justify continued production. If they offered at the same price, an identical gun that was a true Remington clone they’d pick up a little business, but not much – because only a small minority of all cap & ball revolver shooters would care enough to pay the extra cost. In the overall picture at Ruger, cap & ball revolver sales were a drop in the bucket at best. Any other manufacturer would see the same picture after making a market study. Perhaps we should be glad that we have what we do. If the Italians folded we'd end up with nothing.

[Bad Flynch]

>In that case, Pietta will probably be the sole competitor with USFA, and with these prices<

Not necessarily. I own both a DGW/Pietta "Shooter's Revolver" and Pedersoli 1858 Remington. Each is a fine gun both and are roughly in the same price category. I think that the DGW goes for ~$675 and the Pedersoli for ~$835; that's not too much difference.

Both of those guns are well made and impeccably timed. They feel great when the action is cycled and they shoot much better than I can. The Pedersoli has a matte finish, which is especially advantageous on a bright day. Both have comparable sights--dovetailed front sights and notch-type rear sights.

The Pedersoli has a Lothar-Walther barrel which is great; the DGW has a gain-twist barrel. Both revolvers shoot much better than I can. I am going to buy the pour kit adapter that Midway sells for shooting rests because it will fit my Ransom Rest, they say. Comparing one each of the revolvers will not prove much except what load they like the best. The sample size is too small to draw any other conclusions.

The ball size for each gun is different by a few thousandths.

If'n 'n' when I get around to buying a USFA, it will be carefully scrutinized and tested. However, I have no doubt that it will be a fine gun, because my USFA Single Action is so darn good, right out of the box.

[arcticap]

Most of you fellers' know that we don't really own our guns anyway, we're only renting them while we're living here on this earth until our days are over. After all, we just can't take them with us beyond the grave. ;)
So if ownership does end up becoming a type of rental, then it all boils down to paying a rentalship price which breaks down into being an annual fee, but paid in advance with a partial return if and when the gun is eventually sold off (if ever).
A $1500 gun (if the USFA 1858 does end up costing that much), ends up costing $75 a year over a 20 year period. And if it's traded-in sometime during that time period, the final price can possibly end up being even less on an annual basis.
If a person re-sold it for $1000 after 10 years, then the final price comes out to being $50 per year for 10 years of rental.
So it's just like an expensive car (hopefully without the upkeep expenses), and there is always a way to justify the final cost of buying an expensive gun.
And isn't money just a means to obtain a small degree of happiness in this life? Money certainly doesn't always provide as much happiness in and of itself simply by possessing it, because sometimes it does need to be spent in order to be given the opportunity to produce it.
So when guns & happiness are involved, whatever floats our individual boat is what's the most important to satisfy any of us! :D

[Jim Dandy]

When guns & happiness are involved, whatever floats our individual boat is what's the most important to satisfy any of us! :DI'd prefer to retire before I'm 90.

[sundance44s]

The wife asked me to make a list of names and ser# for her of all the reproduction guns I have , she was worried with me haveing such a large collection ..she wouldn`t have a clue what they are or what they are worth when I go to the happy hunting ground ....heck she might end up here giveing them away ..LOL ...I don`t have anyone to leave them to ...I had a last request from my father when he passed to keep what I wanted of his gun collection and put the rest of them in a deep river...I`ll rest that on my wife to do ..I haven`t done that yet ..and won`t ...I`ll never be a great shooter with anyone of them ...I just have too many , and enjoy shooting each and every one I have .

[mainmech48]

Guys, IMO we're discounting several Very Large factors when we automatically assume that the price is 'way outta line in comparison to the base model Italian replica.

First of all, the Italians have been at it long enough to have long ago amortized not only their initial design, engineering and tooling costs, but all of the subsequent technology upgrading as well.

Secondly, aside from a couple of special order models at much higher prices, most of the authenticity in the Italian replicas is basically cosmetic. Compared directly to a genuine period Remington, they differ in some significant details. They're slightly smaller in most dimensions and the rifling is very different, just to name a couple of the biggest.

Third, the level of craftsmanship displayed in terms of smooth function and quality of fitting/finishing on even the nicest of their standard production 1858 replicas that I've seen tends to be 'spotty' at best. Less frequent on the Uberti's, granted, but still not exactly what I'd call stellar.

Even with CAD/CNC technology, setting up a line for a whole new item isn't a simple or inexpensive process. Engineering costs money, programming costs money, debugging both during prototype runs costs more money, skilled labor costs money to find and retain and so does training those production and assembly folks in the details needed for the new product.

All of that has to be recouped before any profit is realized, and the smaller the projected number of units they'll sell is, the higher the percentage of those costs each one will have to reflect in the pricing.

Neither the SAA or the Remingtons are modern designs, and even with the advances in manufacturing technology they aren't machines where everything can just be dropped in or screwed-on, it'll all work together in perfect harmony, feel as slick as snot on a glass doorknob and shoot where you point it.

If they make the Remingtons to the same standards of quality and authenticity that their SSA's exhibit they'll surpass everything else out there, and not just in price.

"Value" is a term that's always relative and always highly subjective. Only the guy shelling out the money can tell you "why" something's worth what he spent to him.

[sundance44s]

Every time I ask a serious collector what a piece is worth ..I get told it`s worth what someone is willing to pay for it ...I see this being put to the test on GunBroker all the time .

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Old Fuff is right.... Well, I'm through with the '58's for awhile. I'm a Walker man anyway on the bottom line. Going shoot mine a few times this evening. Damn glad I'vd got a good one made by Uberti instead a piece of that trash Colt was producing back then where every time you pulled the trigger you waited for the damn cylinder to blow up in your face....

[mykeal]

So it's just like an expensive car (hopefully without the upkeep expenses), and there is always a way to justify the final cost of buying an expensive gun.

I like the way that man thinks.

[Timthinker]

Speaking for myself only, I can remember shooting some extremely inaccurate caplock revolvers some years ago. In fact, some of them shot so poorly that I found a crossbow could produce superior accuracy to them. Those negative experiences led me to seek accurate BP firearms. This is the reason I have championed the ROA revolver and Knight rifles. Now that the ROA has been discontinued, I have considered the Pietta "Shooters" revolver as a potential replacement for the Ruger. It appears others share my interest in this gun as well. The point here is that once you shoot an inaccurate BP revolver, then an obsession with accuracy become quite understandable. I hope this posting explains my passion for accurate BP firearms.


Timthinker

[English Bob]

Well I'd love one, sure I's pay it for something well made and it sure as hell wouldn't be sitting as no display piece.

Guess we'll never get them over here though. :uhoh: