Bullseye Pistol: Training tips thread


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bdutton
March 28, 2008, 06:39 PM
Here's the concept. Post a bullseye pistol training tip. Lots of folks have ideas... let hear them!

Tip #1: When you go to the range to train (NOT PRACTICE!)... start by shooting at least 10 10's in slowfire for as long as it takes you (10 minutes or 2 hours!). The most important target in shooting bullseye is slowfire. If you fail to put together a good score in slowfire, you will be doomed to shoot a poor aggregate. Keep trying until you get tired, run out of time or run out of ammo.

Like I tell folks who lament over shooting a poor slowfire:

'Its pretty hard to shoot a 290 in the gallery match course with an 89 slowfire!'.

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testar77
March 28, 2008, 08:18 PM
I wonder if we could get the mods to make it a Sticky??

cdrt
March 28, 2008, 09:35 PM
Off the top of my head:
1. Shoot as many matches as you can.
2. Be consistent on how you set up; have your gun box user friendly.
3. Read the Army Marksmanhip Unit book on Bullseye at least twice.
4. Make a check list of things to take to a match and always refer to it before you go.
5. If you reload, get good at it.
6. If you shoot outdoor matches, practice in the wind (adverse conditions) once in a while. It's never always nice weather when you go to a match.
7. If you're looking to get Distinguished, shoot the .45 match with hardball instead of just the occasional Leg match.

JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
March 29, 2008, 12:43 AM
1. Shoot as many matches as you can.
2. Be consistent on how you set up; have your gun box user friendly.
3. Read the Army Marksmanhip Unit book on Bullseye at least twice.
4. Make a check list of things to take to a match and always refer to it before you go.
5. If you reload, get good at it.
6. If you shoot outdoor matches, practice in the wind (adverse conditions) once in a while. It's never always nice weather when you go to a match.

Some excellent points!

1. I'm workin on it.
2 & 4. Being organized is a HUGE plus. -I'm workin on it!
3. I've read it a few times. Certain to read it again. http://www.bullseyepistol.com/amucover.htm
5. If you reload, or pour your own lead, NOTHING BEATS CONSISTANCY.
6 Did some Ransom Rest testing my pistol today after having fit a tighter bushing. Still took time during the mixed snow and rain to shoot some slow fire.

I'll add DRY FIRE practice. For my 1911, I have a piece of tire tread cut to fit in the back of the slide so the hammer doesn't take chance of cracking the firing pin stop. I pick a knot in the paneling on the wall and concentrate on front sight alignment. With red dot, before shooting, I close my eyes and visualize the dot in the center of the bull before I actually grasp the gun and put it there. Practice steady trigger tension. Until it goes click. I'll say the awful word... Followthrough.

zxcvbob
March 29, 2008, 12:52 AM
I've been lifting weights 2 or 3 times a week since early January. My bullseye score has improved so much in the past 2 months, that's the only thing I can account for it.

bdutton
March 29, 2008, 09:51 PM
Tip #2: If you shoot a ten, and you knew from the moment when you lifted the gun, to the second the gun went bang, that you shot a ten, you have discovered the mental part of the shot process. Savor that moment, file it into memory, and strive to repeat that moment.

bdutton
March 29, 2008, 09:56 PM
Tip #3: Don't try to over think your shot process. Get comfortable... determine your best grip, stance, etc... then focus on only two things: Sight Alignment and Trigger control. Do these two things right, you will always get a good shot.

mek42
March 30, 2008, 09:49 AM
For slow fire, don't be afraid to put the weapon down without taking a shot. This can be because you haven't fired after holding it up too long for good aim circles, you've noticed your mental game is off or any other reason that you're not happy with the shot you are about to take.

You've got 10 minutes, feel free to put the weapon down without firing 2, 3, 4 times as needed.

Showing up for a match, allow for relaxation time. If you were in a rush to get there after a later than usual shift at work, ask to shoot in a later relay. Don't just jump into the line still thinking of all those jerks driving too slow in front of you all the way from work. DAMHIKT.

10s&Xs
March 31, 2008, 12:46 PM
For slow fire, don't be afraid to put the weapon down without taking a shot.

+1

If find yourself thinking "Hang on...I can fix this shot... just a little more... almost there...." it's already too late. Put it down and start over.

Fred40
March 31, 2008, 03:00 PM
In rapid fire be ready to let that first shot fly when the target tuns. Nothing worse then feeling like your behind on your rapid fire string.

Mike OTDP
March 31, 2008, 03:43 PM
Let's see if I can contribute anything useful...

1. Buy good gear. Bad equipment builds bad habits. You don't want a bad trigger teaching you to jerk the shot.

2. Don't be afraid to NOT shoot CF and .45. Build your skills with the .22 first. This also plays into #1 above. A top-flight .22 will do more for you (and be more fun to shoot) than a second-rate .22 and a second-rate 1911.

3. BASICS MATTER MOST! If you are shooting poorly, go back and check your fundamentals. The issue is probably there.

4. Dry fire. And shoot air pistol as well. You can really put a polish on your basics with a good air pistol. Not to mention that they are cheap to feed.

5. Your first sight picture is probably your best. Get on target fast, align the sights, and start stacking the trigger immediately.

bdutton
March 31, 2008, 07:04 PM
In rapid fire be ready to let that first shot fly when the target tuns. Nothing worse then feeling like your behind on your rapid fire string.

I would add that in timed fire, you should focus on a good shot first.

I was taught that in slowfire, you shoot for points. In Timed fire you shoot for x's. In rapid fire, you shoot for tens.

Rapid fire: Don't be too hasty. Get off the first shot within the first second of the target turning but don't rush either. Sometimes we may end up taking too long (we think) in the first shot and then rush through the final 4 because we 'think' we are going to run out of time. What sucks most is when you jerked off 4 bad shots and then count, 1...2...3...4..turn. CRAP! I HAD PLENTY OF TIME.

You might find that getting off just 4 well aimed shots during rapid fire will get a better score than 1 well aimed shot and 4 bad ones.

It also has a lot to do with confidence.

Training Tip #4: Rapid fire training. 1 shot and 2 shot drills. Have a friend operate the turning targets, or call the commands or get an mp3 player with this the range commands (http://www.bullseyepistol.com/rangecmd.htm) and try to get off 1 good shot immediately after the command to fire is given. Then do the same to get off two well aimed shots... then 3... then 4... etc.

10s&Xs
April 1, 2008, 02:20 PM
5. Your first sight picture is probably your best. Get on target fast, align the sights, and start stacking the trigger immediately.

I'll throw out one variation to that sequence of events, and it comes from the Zins/Moody school of bullseye thought. If you've got a perfect sight picture (the best you can get) it's too late to start moving the trigger. Pulling the trigger will always disturb the sights to some degree.

Settle in to your target area (e.g., in the black but not steady on the center of it) and begin moving the trigger with consistent force before achieving your final sight picture. Your eye and hand will work together to finish aligning the sights.

Takes practice, but it has helped my scores a great deal.

bdutton
April 1, 2008, 09:50 PM
^^^ Yeah That.

+10 Dittos.

Fred40
April 2, 2008, 11:42 AM
I like that 10s&Xs.....I will work on that.

Now here is an interesting thing. I'm new to Bullseye shooting. Been shooting less than a month and ONLY on Tuesdays for a couple hours. Yesterday I was all over the place! Talk about one step backwards.....so my "mentor" says to me "Shoot 10 shots at the back (blank side) of the target". So I flip the target and he says "now just try and get them in the middle of the paper". I PUT 6 SHOTS IN THE X-RING! had two that got away from me (that I called) and two just outside of the group of six! What is up with that. I've never shot a group like that.....looked like bench rest shooting. So what am I doing when I can see the black......chasing the bullseye?

cdrt
April 2, 2008, 12:22 PM
I've done the back of the target thing as well. With iron sights, it's a good way to work on focusing on the front sight rather than shifting your eyes to the target...which is probably one of the things that caused your backslide.

10s&Xs
April 2, 2008, 02:00 PM
So what am I doing when I can see the black......chasing the bullseye?

Exactly. Shooting at a blank target takes away that urge to make the shot absolutely perfect and forces you to pay attention to the fundamentals (i.e., what's happening with your front sight/dot when the trigger moves.)

It's also a good way to work on "chicken finger." When I dry fire against a blank wall, that dot is rock solid and the trigger breaks perfectly. Put a round in the chamber and a bullseye in front of me, and suddenly the trigger feels like it gained 40lbs.

Before I started shooting bullseye, I had no idea how complex pulling a trigger can be. :)

The Wiry Irishman
April 2, 2008, 03:27 PM
Settle in to your target area (e.g., in the black but not steady on the center of it) and begin moving the trigger with consistent force before achieving your final sight picture. Your eye and hand will work together to finish aligning the sights.

Takes practice, but it has helped my scores a great deal.

I do the same, only with 6 o'clock hold. When I started doing this, my timed, rapid, and slow scores went up by 5 in a week.

ilbob
April 2, 2008, 05:34 PM
All very good suggestions.

One other one might be to participate in the bullseye mailing list. Thousands of active bullseye shooters and gunsmiths (including some of the very best) opine every day.

There are often 50 or more posts every day, but they are mostly on target as the list owner is pretty ornery about off topic stuff.

http://lists.lava.net/mailman/listinfo/bullseye-l

10s&Xs
April 2, 2008, 05:59 PM
Thought of another one that's helped me - keep a journal of some kind.

Write out your shot process.
Keep track of what works and what doesn't
Document your goals and your progress toward them.

And I'd second bdutton's suggestion on the mp3 player with range commands, especially if the range where you practice doesn't have turning targets. In addition to helping you build a repeatable process (i.e., at "ready on the left, I raise the gun and start settling in), it lets you know if you're cheating that last shot during rapid fire.

velocette
April 2, 2008, 06:33 PM
Two things that helped me:

1, At the end of your live fire practice, look at the first target you put up. (You did put one on top of the other & align them nicely didn't you?) What you will see is a large hole. The center of that hole is the true center aim point for your pistols sights. Adjust your sights in small increments until that large hole is centered on the X ring. your pistol will now be sighted in perfecly for your ammo & shooting style. If you check your first target after every shooting session you will be keeping track of how well you are sighted in.

2, Buy a mid priced air pistol shooting 177 pellets and a pellet trap. You can then practice at home or any place with a 25 foot long area. Quiet, safe and very inexpensive but superb training.

Roger

Fred40
April 3, 2008, 09:33 AM
Just read about Brian Zins grip and I think I might like that grip. I don't have big hands and I think his grip might work well for me. BTW....his grip puts your trigger finger centered over that first joint.....not on the pad of the finger and not just up against the edge of the first joint. This forces the MSH to shift further out (or towards your thumb) more than the standard grip. It felt solid for me.....I'll give it a shot since I'm not set on one yet anyway. I'm also going to toy with his "focus on the target and not on the dot" technique. This does not apply to iron sights but he does do that when shooting dots. Again.....I'm not set on anything yet...so I'll try it. Hard to argue with eight national titles......but I am aware of the fact that what works for him might not work for me.

Round Gun Shooter
April 3, 2008, 04:28 PM
TIP 70% of a good bulls eye score is a good state of mind. If you can learn to relax and think only of yourself and the shot you are taking, you can master the rest with basic fundamentals.

Do not get into the rhythm of the other shooters on the line. Set your own and forget about them. You are the only shooter on the line that matters.

PaulBk
April 4, 2008, 01:36 AM
And shoot air pistol as well. You can really put a polish on your basics with a good air pistol. Not to mention that they are cheap to feed

+1

And since an air pistol is pushing the pellet so slowly (as low as 300 fps for 7.9gr .177's), basics become critical, especially follow through. Helps me a lot.

-Paul

10s&Xs
April 4, 2008, 09:49 AM
Just read about Brian Zins grip and I think I might like that grip.

I tried it when I attended one of his clinics last year (which I would definitely recommend as a training tip) and found it to be very effective. Took some getting used to, as any change does, but for me, it felt like the pistol was far more stable and my grip was more consistent.

Best way I could describe it would be seating the web of your thumb/trigger finger on the grip safety, and then kind of "reaching" forward with your little finger and rotating your hand just slightly as you grip the pistol to align the mainspring housing with the crease of the life line on your palm (the one that runs down around the base of your thumb). Basically it gets the MSH off the fleshy parts of your hand.

Fred40
April 4, 2008, 12:45 PM
"Basically it gets the MSH off the fleshy parts of your hand."


I think that is the best way to describe it. It definitely changes the angle of MSH, rotating it out towards your wrist. It allows me to wrap more of my fingers around the grip and puts my trigger finger much further in. I'm also trying to focus on the pressure being applied to the front and rear of the grip....very little on the sides. I can tell when I get it right because my "area of motion" decreases. :)

10s&Xs
April 4, 2008, 02:19 PM
I'm also trying to focus on the pressure being applied to the front and rear of the grip....very little on the sides.

Yep.

The other benefit I noticed was that it seems like once you establish the grip, it "stays put" rather well. I can rest the pistol on the bench during slow fire and almost (but not quite) relax my hand. When I'm ready, I firm up the grip, the wrist and the elbow, raise my arm and the sights are right in line.

bdutton
April 4, 2008, 07:08 PM
+1

And since an air pistol is pushing the pellet so slowly (as low as 300 fps for 7.9gr .177's), basics become critical, especially follow through. Helps me a lot.

-Paul

Must... not... argue...! :banghead::evil::evil::evil:

PaulBk
April 4, 2008, 09:29 PM
Please argue. Or at least correct me politely if I am wrong :o

This was posted in good faith.

-Paul

Wayne02
April 4, 2008, 10:28 PM
I'm just wading into bullseye and have been reading all I can. I have what is probably a silly question.

When shooting the slow fire and bringing the gun up off the bench to obtain sight picture, do you usually attempt to raise the gun to your point of aim and stop cold right at that point of aim, or do you raise the gun slightly above the intended point of aim and let it settle down into the point of aim?

If that made any sense...

I ask because I've tried it both ways and it feels much more natural to go just slightly above where I really want it and then let come back down to the spot.

Thanks

testar77
April 5, 2008, 03:02 PM
When shooting the slow fire and bringing the gun up off the bench to obtain sight picture, do you usually attempt to raise the gun to your point of aim and stop cold right at that point of aim, or do you raise the gun slightly above the intended point of aim and let it settle down into the point of aim?


With me it depends on what I am shooting, if I am shooting with my dot then I do start slightly above my target and settle down into it, because I can still see the target. When I am shooting open sights I tend to do the opposite, but then again maybe that's why I shoot my .45 like $#!%. With rimfire I shoot respectable, but you put that .45 in my hand and Ray Charles could probably shoot better!

Toby

Fred40
April 5, 2008, 06:00 PM
I'm a newb as well....but right now I go above the target and then try and settle into it. I know some of the guys who are better come from the top down and fire right when the picture is good......they "pre-load" the trigger and increase the pressure on the way down.

Wayne02
April 5, 2008, 06:37 PM
I was wondering if some of you folks could share what type of targets you use for practice sessions and how you use them? I need to order some bulk targets and am wondering what are the best type to get. My range requires "21x24" "bullseye type targets" and they are used at 25 and 50 yards. Target stands are non-turning and have no backing, they are just a 2x4 frame that the four corners of the target are stapled to.

What target style/number do you use, B8 or other?

For practice do you use regular paper targets or the "tag" or heavy paper targets like I assume are used in regulation matches? I'm trying to do this as economical as possible and I see you can get targets online like this:
B8 paper = 500 for $21
B8 Tag paper = 250 for $44.25

The tag are nice because they are more robust than the regular paper but they are of course more expensive.

Which brings me to my next question and that is what is your method when using said targets. Do you use "replacement centers"? If so how do you fasten them to the target? Would replacement centers work on the thin paper targets or just the heavy paper targets? Remember, our target stands have no backing, and supposedly we are not supposed to put any backing on them when using them.

Thanks

Fred40
April 6, 2008, 02:47 AM
Sorry, can't help you there....my club provides the targets. So far I have just been shooting the regulation 50ft indoor targets. That is probably where I'll get most of my practice.....indoors.

cdrt
April 6, 2008, 05:50 PM
At 25 yards, I use the timed fire/rapid fire repair center for practice (not tag board) and the 25 yard reduced slow fire target (tag board). Can't tell you the numbers cause I'm not home right now. For 50 yard slowfire, I use the std full size slow fire target or I'll staple up a sheet of butcher paper and use a 50 yard repair center, which seems to work okay and is less expensive.

The repair centers seem to work at 25 yards, since I'm able to keep all my shots on the repair center. Back in the day, when I was first starting out, the Navy was paying for the targets and we would use the full size target at 25 yards and boy, did I need the full size target to see all my hits.

I usually buy my targets from Gil Hebard; pretty good prices and CHEAP shipping.

bdutton
April 6, 2008, 06:14 PM
I was struggling with the .45 today at the range. My recoil was different on virtually every shot in timed fire. I had a 93-3x.

I made a mental visualization of my gun being an extension of my arm.

After I followed this visualization technique, my recoil was very consistent. I shot a 99 7 X!

Wayne02
April 6, 2008, 07:25 PM
At 25 yards, I use the timed fire/rapid fire repair center for practice (not tag board) and the 25 yard reduced slow fire target (tag board). Can't tell you the numbers cause I'm not home right now. For 50 yard slowfire, I use the std full size slow fire target or I'll staple up a sheet of butcher paper and use a 50 yard repair center, which seems to work okay and is less expensive.
Thanks, how do you fasten the repair centers? Staple? Do your target holders have backing support behind the target?

SoCalShooter
April 6, 2008, 08:34 PM
re:wayne02 I have been shooting the slowfire 25 yard targets for 22 and 45. It seems to have helped me slow down and really concentrate more considering its a reduced target.

cdrt
April 6, 2008, 08:39 PM
The range here in Graham is a little primitive. They have OSB sheets set up on the 25 yard pistol range and the 50 yard sight-in range, so I use staples. On the 25 yard pistol range, the OSB is actually set up at 27 yards. I made a target stand with some 1x2 lumber, PVC pipe for support stands and cardboard. I set it up before a match just to check things out and make sure the guns are sighted in. For regular practice , I shoot at the 27 yard line. If it get a chance this week, I'll take some photos and post them for you.

I'm up in Amarillo for the Texas State Indoor match, by the way. Didn't do that well individually, but we had three teams; one from Texas (me and 3 others), a team from Colorado and one from Oklahoma. We took second in all three team matches, just behind the Colorado team. Not too bad since we had an Expert team and they had a Master. I had a 98 on the TF stage in the CF team match....woo hoo.

bdutton
April 6, 2008, 09:39 PM
I sometimes use a 50 foot Timed/rapid fire target at 25 yards to force myself to focus on a smaller hold.

I had a friend struggling with slowfire at 50 feet use an air pistol target instead. He was averaging around 75-85 in slowfire and when he took the AP target and overlayed it with the regular target he would have had an 85.

So the reduced target is a very good tool to force a tighter hold.

bdutton
April 6, 2008, 09:41 PM
BTW: I am very pleased to see this thread get some attention. Many people of all experience and skill levels have something to add. Keep it up!

Wayne02
April 6, 2008, 11:22 PM
Thanks for the replies on the targets, I think the slow fire is a B8, or maybe the NRA slow fire at 25 yards is the B16? I can never remember this stuff.

At my range you cannot setup any other target stands save for the range ones that are installed at 25 and 50 yards, and I as I mentioned there is no backing on these stands so I just don't know how that whole "replacement center" thing would work on a stand like this. There is nothing supporting the paper when you press on the center of it to staple a replacement center in.

How do they handle the targets in a match situation? Do the target holders have backing? Are replacement centers used in a match or do you have to put up a new complete target for each string?

Thanks

cdrt
April 7, 2008, 02:49 PM
All the ranges I shoot at here and in OK they have wooden frames with cardboard attached that is the same size as the full size target or metal frame that allows you slide in a piece of cardboard that you staple a target to. We just replace the repair center during matches with staples and use pasters on any holes outside of the repair center. If the cardboard gets too shot up, they allow you to change it out or put up a new full size target if you have a lot of pasters.

At Camp Perry they provide a piece of cardboard with a full sized target glued to it for each stage of the match, so you end up using 27 targets and backers for a 2700; 9 SF and 18 TF/RF. They have metal target holders that you slide the cardboard in to and huge rubber bands to keep them from popping out if it's windy, which seems to be all the time.

The targets I use are the B6 (full size SF target), B6CP (SF repair center), B8CP (TF/RF repair center) and the B16 (25 yard SF tagboard).

JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
April 7, 2008, 05:00 PM
Bottom of the page.

http://www.flat5.net/shooting.htm

Print one/each on just regular paper. Then go to your local copier machine and make hundreds. No, they're not regulation paper that way, but for practice they're just fine. You'll know whether you're shooting 80's or 90's. Shoot the ones you've already shot as Rimfire, with your centerfire gun. Save a branch, save a tree, save some dough.

Those without target backings should go to your local appliance store. You'll be able to grab refrigerator, washer and dryer boxes. Cut the cardboard to fit your clubs target stands. If they're just wood stands, then use heavy staples to attach them to the stand. Else, your club should have some stands that you can slide the cardboard in from the top/sides... Whatever. It's not rocket science.

I get roll-ends from the local newpaper publisher. Two feet wide. Once stapled up at 25yds, I put a bullet hole in the center. Then I aim for that hole. Again. Again. If you changed that, and aim for the last hole made, again, again, you'll learn if you are flinching consistantly in one direction or not. (just an old trick I stumbled upon) Your POI will show a pattern.

Wayne02.. SlowFire sighting. I raise above the bull then drop to it, with red dot or with iron sights. That's just me. I feel comfortable settling to a 'rest/targeted' position. There's this little rough spot in the movement of my shoulder. I drop to just below that. You can see, how a person aquires the sights/target may vary quite a lot to shooters. You'll have to find what works for you. Many RO's will frown on raising above the bull/target. Try this. With an unloaded weapon, set your stance, gun in hand but on the bench. Close your eyes. Lift to aquire target with your sights. Open your eyes. If the sights aren't close, adjust your stance until it is. Try again until you've found a stance that gets you close, or perfect. You'll find that your drop or lift adjustment will be minimal. Practice the steps to get to that point and you should find that all your scores will improve. Recovery from recoil to get back on target will be more consistant.

-Steve

Wayne02
April 8, 2008, 12:31 AM
Those without target backings should go to your local appliance store. You'll be able to grab refrigerator, washer and dryer boxes. Cut the cardboard to fit your clubs target stands. If they're just wood stands, then use heavy staples to attach them to the stand.
Unfortunately, as I mentioned in previous posts there is to be nothing other than the target paper stapled to the 2x4 frame, no cardboard, no separate special target holders etc. If this type of thing were allowed I'd already be doing it.

Thus my question as to whether the replacement center concept is even workable with a target that has no backing in the center? If not, then I might be better served to buy 500 of thinner paper targets and just have to change the whole target out each and every time.

Powderman
April 8, 2008, 02:59 AM
Wayne, where in WA do you live?

If you're in the South Sound area, you are cordially invited to join me at Cascade Rifle and Pistol. We don't have the target restrictions you mention--I just head out with a bunch of repair centers and go for it!

BTW, here's a training tip:

Try shooting Indoor Pistol--a LOT. I use the smallbore rifle targets at 15 yards. I guarantee you that holding a good sight picture/sight alignment on that target is HARD. When you can keep all your shots in the black, you're making progress. When you manage to cut bugholes, you're improving a lot!

Try this: shoot at 15 yards with your .22, on the reduced smallbore or air rifle targets. Do this for a while, concentrating on sight and trigger control.

Now, go out to 25 yards, and post a B-8 target. Shoot a string of timed and rapid fire. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
April 8, 2008, 03:05 AM
You can't post up a cardboard target? SoBeIt. Some thick construction paper with the afore mentioned practice targets taped/stapled to the construction paper?

There has to be a way.

What club are you shooting at?

-Steve

bdutton
April 8, 2008, 07:24 AM
Wayne:

Can you simply go to the Board of Directors meeting and request a clarification/change of the target rules? If you don't get satisfaction then go to the general members meeting. It seems ridiculous to me that you cannot use a cardboard backing to the target.

Wayne02
April 8, 2008, 11:11 AM
I'm in Everett

The range is Kenmore

I can try thicker paper, the tag paper targets are pretty thick so maybe I'll buy some of those next time there and see if they will support stapling in the center.

The last range meeting I was at a few months back the rule was clarified to us by the man himself.

However, I notice the target stands are pretty shot up so I may volunteer to help rebuild them and talk with some more folks about the issue at the time.

I also see they have some bullseye matches on the calender so I'll try and get to one of those and see what stands those guys use. Maybe they have some stands locked up around there that I'm not aware of.

If ranges were like starbucks (in every town) I'd look at going to a different one, but they aren't so I do with what I have, and I like everything else about this range.

Wayne02
April 8, 2008, 11:27 AM
Is there much value in using a .22 conversion on your .45 in order to get more frequent center-fire practice without breaking the bank for .45 ammo?

This is may not be considered a good air pistol but I do have one of these I could practice with either on my property or with maybe a 25' lane inside my shop. Are all air gun pellets pretty much created equal or does it really make that much of a difference for practice?
http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/Crosman/L1377C.gif

Wayne02
April 8, 2008, 11:36 AM
Do most of you guys use those pistol boxes with the side lid that hinges up to the open position?

I see some people have a spotting scope mounted to the top of the lid when it is open. I know in DCM/CMP rifle people go to great lengths to position the scope so that the target can be checked without disrupting the shooting position too much. Is it the same in bullseye?

I've got a nice scope that is used for DCM rifle at 200-300 yards, but it is a large heavy thing and I'm not sure about stability if mounting on top of one of those pistol box lids. Plus it is probably overkill for 25-50 yards.

JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
April 8, 2008, 12:32 PM
It took me a couple years to finally buy a BE box and scope. Evilbay. But my nephew just picked up a nice one from the CMP forum. By the time you add in all the hardware, it's not worth making one yourself. I think I saw a couple for sale on the Bullseye list recently.

Once you have a BE box, you'll wonder how you did so long without it. No different than an IDPA/IPSC shooter with an organized range bag. Or, a Pin shooter with a bin/tray. You'll have a safe place to clamp your guns. Accessible storage for ammo and tools. Integrated scope so you don't have to carry a mount/tripod.

You should be able to find a used box for less than $100. PM me for a link to a pretty good scope (no, you don't want your long range high power scope for BE), and a great mount for good prices. -up and runnin for less than $200.


Hey, I'm still curious. What range are you shooting at?

So much for making this thread a sticky. Slap my wrist, I've contributed to this thread waivering from its true topic -even though there is good information herein.

-Steve

10s&Xs
April 8, 2008, 02:02 PM
Is there much value in using a .22 conversion on your .45 in order to get more frequent center-fire practice without breaking the bank for .45 ammo?

For grip, sight alignment and trigger control, I'd say yes. But, it won't help with recoil management during sustained fire.

I shoot a .22 conversion on a 1911 frame in competition, and I've found it extremely helpful to have the same grip angle, trigger feel, etc. for both pistols. Both have flat mainspring houses, plain grips, long triggers, and so on.

And, as JackOfAllTrades mentioned, the box/scope setup is the way to go. The scope, for me, is essential in slow fire for verifying what the shots "feel" like. I can feel the difference between a 10 and an 8, but not always a 10 and a 9.

kle
April 8, 2008, 03:12 PM
A couple things I just learned this past week (this is my first season ever doing Bullseye, and my first time shooting in a structured environment, as I've joined the Metro Pistol League in Fairfax, VA):

If you can't hear the start buzzer (with targets that don't rotate to face you), the first salvo of shots coming from the other shooters is pretty good indication that the buzzer went off and that you should start pulling the trigger in timed- and rapid-fire =)

Also, don't neglect timed- and rapid-fire in your practice; I almost had a 4-shot string (rather than five) when my last shot went off right at the buzzer during one of the rapid-fire strings. Take your time to aim, but don't take too much time =)

Good tips in this thread, especially for beginners like me!

Wayne02
April 8, 2008, 03:55 PM
Hey, I'm still curious. What range are you shooting at?
Wildlife Committee of Washington, Inc
Kenmore shooting range

bdutton
April 8, 2008, 08:26 PM
Wayne:

The Marvel conversion on a 1911 is a great package. I highly recommend it.

Air pistol is a good way to train sight alignment and a bit of trigger control. I also highly recommend it but make sure you get a good quality one. Don't spend less than $400 for a good AP. I spent $600 for my compress air pistol plus another $75 for a (filled) used scuba tank.

jr_roosa
April 9, 2008, 12:22 AM
Speaking of Brian Zins, I like this workbook.

http://www.brianzins.com/USMCShooter.php

The first drills are shooting at blank targets...extremely helpful for focusing on sight alignment. I though it was a bit odd, but when my first group on a blank target was tighter than I could shoot at a real target, it was a real "ah ha!"

Buy lots of ammo though. It takes a lot of shots to get through each drill if you're a beginner like me.

-J.

cdrt
April 9, 2008, 08:39 AM
Thought I'd post this link on lubricating the 1911 just in case someone has not seen it before.

http://www.lava.net/~perrone/bullseye/oiling.html

Got to meet Ed at Camp Perry last year.

10s&Xs
April 9, 2008, 09:55 AM
I'd like to highlight something bdutton said earlier about confidence. At league this week, I felt shaky as all heck. Didn't feel steady, and I could see my arc of movement was bigger than normal when I lined up prior to the start. Don't know if it was physical (tired muscles) or mental (couldn't get the day out of my head) or what.

The first slow fire wasn't too bad, but it was taking longer than normal to get off each shot, and I knew I was going to be in trouble for timed and rapid if I kept going down that path.

This is where confidence and fundamentals makes a difference.

In effect, I "surrendered" to the shot process and trusted in my ability to move the trigger during timed and rapid fire. By accepting the arc of movement (even though it was worse than usual) and focusing on an uninterrupted trigger pull, I was able to get the shots off in a timely fashion and trust that they'd be where they were supposed to be.

Wound up with a pair of 290s (national match courses, .22 and .45) and I believe it was confidence that kept me from overthinking and fighting the increased arc of movement.

Wayne02
April 9, 2008, 12:42 PM
Thought I'd post this link on lubricating the 1911 just in case someone has not seen it before.
http://www.lava.net/~perrone/bullseye/oiling.html
Got to meet Ed at Camp Perry last year.
Thanks for posting this, it brings up something that has always amazed me over all these years of shooting. And that is the seemingly lack of simple illustrated diagrams for lube points on the various firearms.

A person buys a new gun that they may not be familiar with, or a person buys their first gun and of course they want to maintain the firearm so they are interested in where the lube points are. I get asked this quite frequently and oftentimes the gun they have came with no manual, and if it did most of the manuals I've seen lack illustrated lube point diagrams.

I've found there are all kinds of resources for detailed breakdown procedures for many firearms, but trying to find something as simple as a lube point illustration seems like pulling teeth.

For example, just last week I had a person who just acuired an MKII ask me for a lube point diagram for this firearm, does anyone know where I could find such a thing? I'm not talking about breakdown or cleaning procedures per say, just a simple diagram like the one for .45's shown above.

Thanks

Wayne02
April 10, 2008, 02:21 PM
I'm not talking about time for just the match but total time from the time you pull into the parking lot before the match to the time you pull out of the parking lot after the match? What kind of time investment are we talking about here?

Do these matches typically last through lunch? If so does everybody bring their own and eat at the range?

Is the trigger pull weight checked on competitors guns at these matches?

Are these individual matches or team matches? If team, how are teams selected or formed?

Thanks

cdrt
April 10, 2008, 04:24 PM
The 2700s here start at 9:00 so I usually get to the range about 8:30. Travel time runs anywhere from one hour to three depending on where the match is. If we get started on time and there aren't a lot of alibis we're usually done between 3:30 and 4:00. That time includes a lunch break between the CF and .45 match that usually lasts anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour. I usually get out of town about 20 minutes after the match is over since we have to clean up targets, etc. and put things in order before we leave.

It's about half and half for the guys who bring a lunch and those that go out and get something during the break.

Matches in Dallas means I leave about 6:15 a.m. and get home about 6:15 p.m.

I've been to Regionals and State matches where they run the team match after the 2700 where you either pick your team or we draw lots. None of the regular matches here have any kind of fired or unfired team match. If it's the State match and we have guys from Colorado and Oklahoma shooting, I would rather get to pick the team, but it depends on the Match Director and how he/she wants to do it.

We've only weighed triggers for the CMP EIC match, since it is mandatory that everyone's pistol meets the weight requirement and you'll have guys show up from out of area.

Did I get everything?

Wayne02
April 12, 2008, 11:50 AM
Did I get everything?
Yes, thanks very much for the reply.

Fred40
April 13, 2008, 06:11 PM
What I'm working on now....and my latest tip.

Work on getting a good consistent "pre-load" on the trigger....especially for your Timed & Rapid fire segments. Very difficult (I'm learning) to get those shots off ACCURATELY in the allotted time (especially for Rapid) if you don't pre-load that trigger. Without the pre-load you will invariably jerk the trigger when site alignment has been achieved. Pre-loading allows you to (surprise) break the shot each time.....and do it quickly.

bdutton
April 19, 2008, 11:15 AM
Here's another tip:

When first starting out, shoot iron sights. A red dot can be a bit distracting. Red Dots are designed for hunting so it is natural to focus on the target. The simplicity of the iron sights can help put focus on the alignment of the sights and trigger pull.

If you've been shooting a red dot for a long time and finding your scores are leveled out or maybe even gone down a bit, try switching to iron sights for a few weeks.

SoCalShooter
April 27, 2008, 02:18 PM
RE: wayne02

I use a 4 gun box from Tnb its all alloy has slide out tray for 4 guns its massive and weighs 18 pounds empy, I have mounted in it a KOWA 20x scope.

Question for everyone, do you guys use any left or non-dominate eye blocks? or any type of focusing device on your dominate eye? I have a block that goes on my left eye and I have just started using a focusing device on my left. Any thoughts?

Fred40
April 27, 2008, 05:48 PM
I've been shooting with both eyes open, but that is with a red dot.

bdutton
April 27, 2008, 08:55 PM
My left eye is dominant.

I use a blocker over that eye and shoot right handed.

If I am shooting iron sights, I use an iris like this:

http://www.championshooters.com/images/9778.jpg

Without it I can't see crap.

Fred40
May 8, 2008, 02:30 PM
Training Tip #4: Rapid fire training. 1 shot and 2 shot drills. Have a friend operate the turning targets, or call the commands or get an mp3 player with this the range commands and try to get off 1 good shot immediately after the command to fire is given. Then do the same to get off two well aimed shots... then 3... then 4... etc.

Guess I need to work on this.....rapid fire is still giving me fits. Three bad targets for every good one right now. I think it's just a matter of "putting in the time". I work, I have kids and it does not leave much time for practice. I'm getting maybe two times a week for a total of about 3 hours.....makes it though to master trigger control during rapid fire. Hard to practice rapid fire when you are dry firing at home at 10:00 at night. Does not help that my gun has been at Ruger for repairs (firing pin dented the chamber on my Mark III) for over two weeks now and I'm using a friends backup Mitchell (High Standard clone).......let me tell you the Mitchell is no High Standard.

HANDLOADER
June 3, 2008, 07:12 PM
Dose It Make Any Differance If You Use A Round Nose Bullet, Wad Cutter, Or A Semi Wad Cutter In A Center Fire For 50 Yard Competion.

HANDLOADER
June 3, 2008, 07:17 PM
Got A Question About The Ruger Mark 2 Target Model. Should It Shoot A 6 Inch 3 Shot Group After 20 Rounds Or Is The Barrel Bad In It.

bdutton
June 3, 2008, 09:52 PM
Generally speaking, you can use whatever bullet that produces the best accuracy at 50 yards. It happens that semi wadcutter or the nosler/zero hollowpoints make for very good 50 yard loads depending on the powder used. If the centerfire is the 32, then wadcutter may be the only option and you will probably need a custom barrel to shoot them well.

If the ruger is bench rested at 50 yards and you are getting that kind of group you may have one of three problems.

1. Bad ammo
2. Bad barrel/gun
3. Bad hold

If you are ransome resting the ruger, you have one of the first two problems. Test fir emore ammo and have someone else hold the gun for a change if you are just bench resting it.

Fred40
June 6, 2008, 12:47 AM
Had my first ever outdoor shoot today (local league). I was using a friends gun because mine has been at Ruger for almost 6 weeks getting fixed. I had never used his gun before (a High Standard). Had two failures to eject during Timed Fire (one on each clip) but still managed to get the shots off in time....had to rush. Ended up with a 262. Overall I was happy with that, but my slow fire hurt me the most.....an 82 :(

HANDLOADER
June 6, 2008, 08:27 PM
bdutton

Thank you for the response it was most helpful.

243winxb
June 22, 2008, 11:54 AM
http://bullseyepistol.com/ good info here

earplug
August 1, 2008, 01:23 AM
In slowfire. After the shot is fired, is it a good idea to retarget/reaim the bull? or just lower the pistol and rest?
I shoot a revolver in centerfire and I'm wondering if getting a pattern for timed and rapid fire is worth while or to just concentrate on the next round in slowfire.
Now, I thumb cock after the shot then rest my revolver/arm for the next shot, without trying to reaquire the target. Any idea of what the old masters did.

cdrt
August 1, 2008, 09:05 AM
In slowfire. After the shot is fired, is it a good idea to retarget/reaim the bull? or just lower the pistol and rest?

I've been shooting Bullseye since 1974, so I'm not sure if that qualifies me as "old" :) but I'll try and address your question.

I don't really remember anyone pointing out that particular technique when I was just starting out. I glanced through Gil Hebard's Pistol Shooters Treasury and did not see any mention of it.

Having said that, any technique that can help you do a better in timed and rapid fire certainly can't hurt and I can see some merit in "following through", as it were, in slow fire to accomplish that.

And it may help in another way. Sometimes under adverse conditions (windy) you may have to shoot a series of shots in slow fire without putting the pistol down. I did that a Perry last year since it was really windy. Any time there was a lull, I would fire two shots in succession during slow fire without putting the gun down to take advantage of the less windy condition. It helped a little.

Make sense?

kle
August 1, 2008, 09:36 AM
After the shot is fired, is it a good idea to retarget/reaim the bull? or just lower the pistol and rest?

I shoot a .22 revolver in my local bullseye league, open sights, and I find that I feel more consistent when I shoot in 3-shot strings during the slowfire part, thumbcocking each shot. After each 3-shot string, I rest the gun on the table in front of me, hammer down, with my hand still holding a loose grip. My scores seem to reflect it, as well.

bdutton
August 4, 2008, 08:02 AM
I rest after each shot UNLESS the shot really felt great and the gun returned to center immediately after. If that happens, I'll squeeze off another.

Otherwise, I don't see much benefit.

coldtrail
December 7, 2008, 09:08 PM
Stumbled across this easy method of training the brain for slow fire and T/RF. While using the gun box to steady the pistol and check on general accuracy of the pistol, I noticed that I shot better afterwards. What you see while resting the pistol on the box of course is a near perfect sight picture. Then when taking the shot you get the mental reinforcement of seeing a well placed shot. After testing some new rounds this way before shooting freehand my score improved. Now all you have to do is get the ground connector link firmed up and the rest is all tens and x's. Accuracy is just as much mental as physical and of course good equipment.

.38 Special
December 7, 2008, 09:25 PM
In slowfire. After the shot is fired, is it a good idea to retarget/reaim the bull? or just lower the pistol and rest?

There are two reasons to "retarget". One is that if you find the pistol naturally ends up pointing somewhere other than the bull after the shot, your stance/grip needs work. The other has to do with follow through; the idea being that if you don't continue to aim at the target during and after the shot, eventually you will start putting the pistol down too soon.

HTH!

krs
June 20, 2009, 02:51 PM
For both timed and rapid fire it's important to establish a sense of rythme, i.e.: use a timer that has a bell or buzzer and can be set for start dings and end dings for both 10 sec. and 20 sec. Mine is an old windup version that was sold by Gil Hebard for the purpose but I've no doubt that there are electronic types today.

Using the timer and no ammo and no need of a cocked pistol (you can practice with a stick in your hand if you want - the only thing you're after is that slow spaced rythme), raise your 'pistol' and when the bell goes off "fire" five imaginary shots spaced out over the alloted time. You can even simulate the recoil, but the important thing is to become good at getting the five aimed shots off without any sense of urgency or rush. Space shots to the time period - before too much of doing this you'll find that the time is plenty to get off good X's, five in a row, on the beat, just like it's music. (Old? Think Lawrence Welk :) )

kle
November 23, 2009, 11:46 PM
Starting a couple weeks ago, I was having issues getting the first shot off in Rapid fire--the buzzer would go off and I'd just sit there, trying forever to get the perfect shot. When it would finally break, I'd only have 7 or so seconds to light off the rest. I don't know what it was, but some first-shot drills seemed to help:

I'd set my (programmable) target to face for two seconds, and start the timer. The target would face and I'd have to get the first shot off and re-cock the hammer (I'm still using revolvers for Bullseye) and start aiming again by the time the target turned away. That seemed to help a little bit.

---

I also seemed to be getting into a rut with Bullseye--no matter how much harder I tried, how much more focused I attempted to make my practices, my scores were steadily dropping: 579/600 on Nov. 2nd, 573/600 on Nov. 9th, and finally 571/600 last week. Barely a Master-level score. My slow-fire was suffering (I couldn't get a good follow-through and started throwing shots into the 7- and 6-rings), and my rapid-fire was getting wilder and wilder (there were several shots where I watched the dot zig-zag all over the target, but somehow the shots ended up near the black).

I took a three-day break from shooting--not even switching to other disciplines, like defensive practice or shooting Trap with my shotgun. No live-firing at all. I did go to a 3-day gunshow, walked around the tables for a couple hours each day, and I did touch quite a few guns, but I didn't visit the range, nor did I do any dry-fire practice in my house (I have a section of my house that is about 60-ft long, so I put an aiming black at one end and I would stand at the other, dryfiring at the target).

I'm not going to proclaim myself 'cured', but tonight I shot a 579/600, shooting the weekly match cold both figuratively (I got to the range early, but didn't opt to warm up) and literally (for some reason, the indoor range we shoot at had the air conditioning on, and it was cold enough in there that most of the other shooters wore their jackets to shoot).

Sometimes you just need a break. Once in a while.

HighExpert
July 11, 2010, 12:46 AM
One of the tips I was given when I started was to pretend there was a long pencil in the gun barrel and determine what kind of circle or oval it would draw on the target. Learn to time your trigger action to when the gun passes over the bull. As you get better the circle or oval gets smaller. As a beginning shooter it helped a lot, along with 4-5k dry fires a week. You have to live with your trigger until you no longer even think about it. Pistol shooting is 75% mental and 25% trigger control.

mickeygrimreaperblueeyes
September 5, 2010, 09:12 PM
Tip: a consisitant Grip the first time and natural point of aim can set up your first target for a great run. Just don't forget to check both as that 2700 match goes along. Your wear and tear of your body change as you shoot and your point of aim is changing with your fatigue. Check these things on each string and every string of fire. Then the Follow through comes naturally from the recoil of the action to a last minute sight picture.

I loved that feeling of getting in with my shot calling to a consistant thing. I could definately feel when I was heeling a gun. I could tell when I was squeezing too hard with my grip fingers also. Check that grip and hold all the time.

bdutton
October 4, 2010, 09:14 PM
RELAX! The biggest reason for screwing up a shot is over thinking the shot! LET IT HAPPEN. RELAX!

fahad khalid
November 3, 2010, 10:28 AM
I am a competition shooter from Pakistan. I mostly shoot one hand, at 25 mtrs. Initially i had a problem, i would take to long to take a shot. Once you have raised you gun, focus firmly on the front sight, hold your breath, and shoot within the first 5-7 seconds, if it takes longer than that, lower your gun, breath, then try again. Try it out on the range. I am sure that will help alot.

zxcvbob
November 3, 2010, 10:53 AM
I recently started shooting my revolver double-action instead of SA -- just for practice, because I've shot SA revolvers all my life and my thumb instinctively cocks the hammer. (I have to think about not thumbing the hammer.) I was surprised that my score went up instead of down. Now I've figured out to shoot Slow Fire in SA and Timed and Rapid in DA. (I'm using a 4" S&W Model 15-4) When I get better at it, I will probably even shoot slow file in DA.

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