AK platform for 3 gun?


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686+
March 29, 2008, 12:30 PM
I am gearing up for 3G again and wanted to figure out if an AK platform is accurate enough to run?

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azhunter12
March 29, 2008, 12:34 PM
Some people on the Saiga forum are using their conversions for 3gun.

jpwilly
March 29, 2008, 12:40 PM
They aren't as accurate as AR's but as far as Saiga's go they are tops in the accuracy dept for an AK. They shoot 2-3MOA from what I've heard.

Deer Hunter
March 29, 2008, 12:41 PM
I wouldn't hesitate at all to use my .223 Saiga for 3-gun.

nalioth
March 29, 2008, 04:23 PM
They aren't as accurate as AR's but as far as Saiga's go they are tops in the accuracy dept for an AK. They shoot 2-3MOA from what I've heard. I don't think that is an issue with 3-gun.

There's some folks discussing on theakforum.net about how they showed the AR folks up with their AKs at some 3-gun and other tactical matches.

kcmarine
March 29, 2008, 04:44 PM
There's some folks discussing on theakforum.net about how they showed the AR folks up with their AKs at some 3-gun and other tactical matches.

After which, they yelled, "We have achieved victory over the Capitalist pigs, comrades! I dedicate this victory of the Communist ideal to the glory of the State and the Motherland! Off to Havana! Soyuz nerushimy respublik svobodnykh..."


Ah. Just kidding. Though it would be utterly epic if that's what happened...

Deer Hunter
March 29, 2008, 04:46 PM
Nonsense, KC. They simply play the Russian National Anthem while chugging a few pints of room-temp beer.

kcmarine
March 29, 2008, 05:13 PM
Vodka. Beer is made by capitalist pigs in St. Louis.:D

Zak Smith
March 29, 2008, 10:53 PM
Almost nobody runs AKs in 3-Gun. I've shot the RM3G Nationals in Raton for 4 of the last 5 years and I don't remember seeing any (besides the Saiga shotguns-- but we're talking rifles).

We have a "AK vs. AR" match once a year where shooters who choose to do so shoot an iron sighted AR-15 and then a stock AK on assault courses from contact distance to 425 yards. These are some of the best "practical" rifle shooters in the country-- in part because of this match series (it's monthly-- only AK/AR once a year), they will usually place amongst the top on any long-range rifle stages at major 3Gun matches.

I posted some points from the match in this thread AK vs AR (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3844774&highlight=reloads#post3844774)
Lessons re-learned:

* AKs are not necessarily more reliable than AR's
* AK sights suck
* It's way easier to make hits with a stock AR-15A2 than an AK.
* Reloads on an AK suck
* At anything beyond "across the room distances", the AK is less than 25% as capable as a modern AR (comparing shooter times and stage difficulty)

rangerruck
March 30, 2008, 12:57 AM
I know a ton of guys who shoot the saiga, but Zak is correct here, I don't ever recall seeing a rifle in the mix. However that leads up to another question; has anyone ever tried it?

686+
March 30, 2008, 01:05 AM
Your all are just confirming what I had a sneaking suspicion about: the AK sure looks like it's very usefull, but not really very practical.

I would love to have one but unless it will be a good and accurate rifle out to 200 yards why bother? Yeah, they are way cool looking but 2moa sounds like all you can hope for with a standard of 3-4moa. At 4moa I doubt I could hit anything past 200 yards.

Still might get a variant to round out my "collection".

So now I wonder what other rifle to get that will run the intermediate power level cartidges?

GunTech
March 30, 2008, 01:10 AM
I've shot a couple of 3gun matches with my Galil, just for yucks, The fact of the matter is that UI on the AK sucks compared to the AR. Mag changes are a real pain and require two hands. With the AR and a Redi-Mag, swapping out a mag is blazing fast. The Galil at least has better sights than the standard AK, and shoot quite a bit better than a stock AK on those longer targets.

YMMV

nalioth
March 30, 2008, 01:50 AM
Mag changes are a real pain and require two hands. With respect...

...you are doing it wrong.


Keep hold of your pistol grip, reach and grab your fresh mag from your pouch.

Use the fresh mag to sweep the mag release and knock the depleted mag away from the rifle.

Lock the new mag in place.

(optional) Reach over or under and rack the charging handle.

Continue your range activities.



If you're not interested in it, you won't practice and it'll always be "a pain".

jpwilly
March 30, 2008, 02:25 AM
nalioth, I do think accuracy matters when engaging out to 400yrds. Also the UI, like others have said, just isn't as good. Plus, if Zack Smith said they suck for 3 gun I'm going to believe him. Doesn't mean you can't try though.

nalioth
March 30, 2008, 02:42 AM
Well, since we're throwing big names around, Gabe Saurez over at warriortalk has discovered the Kalashnikov and is singing its virtues.

( anyway, this is becoming another AR vs AK thread )

Deer Hunter
March 30, 2008, 10:21 AM
"Bad sights"?

Learn to use them, or hell grab a Kobra or POSP. I love my Saiga and am horribly comfortable with it. Mag changes just require practice, that's all.

Don't call it quits just because some guy with a lot of suppressed toys sites a source where it didn't work for other people. Try it yourself and formulate your own conclusions.

GeezerwithGuns
March 30, 2008, 01:09 PM
I have a very well built RPK with a new barrel and heavy receiver that is proving to be quite accurate, however, at almost 10 lbs it is a little heavy to lug around (even without a drum magazine!).

ants
March 30, 2008, 01:33 PM
I think we should encourage Saiga and other AK owners to join 3-gun. The more the merrier. Anyone with USPSA-legal equipment is encouraged to join and have fun with us. That includes owners of AR, AK, Mini-14, M-14, M1 and all other rifle platforms.

2-3 MOA won't cut it on a long-range stage. Many clubs only have short bays or only choose short, compact stages. But others (including many Regionals and Nationals) include long-range stages up to 330 yards. 2-3 MOA won't cut it on a 10" or 6" target at that range.

I suspect that most competitors choose the AR platform because it has so many, many options and parts and accessories available. Your competition guns must fit you and suit you. It's easier to do that when you have thousands of parts, options and accessories from which to choose.

Zak Smith
March 30, 2008, 04:49 PM
To clarify, I'm not ripping on the AK. It is what it is. I am also for people trying things for themselves to learn things first-hand. However, the lessons I copied from the other thread in post #9 have been repeated for several years, with somewhat different sets of skilled rifle shooters- some with a lot of AK experience, some with less. Learning some others' experience is a way to save time and money.

On close-range stages where accuracy is not very important, the AK can be competitive since it's mostly how fast the shooter can run the gun (that's where I said, "At other than across-the-room distances"). Even then, the more reloads matter, the more advantage will go to the AR. Once you get into intermediate to long range (ie, long range for 3Gun) targets, the stock AR leaves the stock AK in the dust because of: sights, trigger, and mechanical accuracy.

-z

GunTech
March 31, 2008, 01:30 AM
With respect...

...you are doing it wrong.


Keep hold of your pistol grip, reach and grab your fresh mag from your pouch.

Use the fresh mag to sweep the mag release and knock the depleted mag away from the rifle.

Lock the new mag in place.

(optional) Reach over or under and rack the charging handle.

Continue your range activities.



If you're not interested in it, you won't practice and it'll always be "a pain".

I'll race you - AR versus AK. :)

rbernie
March 31, 2008, 10:02 AM
Keep hold of your pistol grip, reach and grab your fresh mag from your pouch.I can't keep my AK shouldered if only holding it by the pistol grip, due to my spindly nature and the AKs nose-heavy balance.

benEzra
March 31, 2008, 10:10 AM
If your stages are 100 yards or less, an AK with a red dot can be surprisingly competitive, though your splits will be slower due to the greater muzzle rize, and mag changes are somewhat slower. Our local range runs mostly short stages, and I shoot my AK (SAR-1) in those. An optic is a must, though.

I can't keep my AK shouldered if only holding it by the pistol grip, due to my sprindly nature and the AKs nose-heavy balance.
Trap the stock in the crook of your shoulder, or (worst case) under your armpit (pull the rifle back with the right hand).

A 16" barreled, 1mm stamped receiver AK is lighter up front than a 20" AR or a 16" with a medium/heavy barrel, though an AR with a government profile barrel is lighter still.

BTW, here's what a fast AK reload with no retention should look like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz5LPaMhlOc

skinewmexico
March 31, 2008, 10:17 AM
I think it would be fun to run an AK. And somewhere in there, 3 gun should be about fun. That said, I use an AR, because we always have a long distance stage, with bonus targets at 400 and 500m.

R127
March 31, 2008, 05:13 PM
It is about fun. At 400 to 500 yards 5.56x45 has ballistics similar to what .22lr or .22mag have at close range. Could it kill with great shot placement? Yes. Through light cover, armor, a lot of gear, etc? Probably not. Game performance against paper does not necessarily translate into real world performance against targets that shoot back. AR's have been built for games for many years now and AK's are not built to compete in those games. If you want to play baseball you bring a baseball bat not a hockey stick. There are a number of AK's right now that can do well at long range like Veprs and Arsenals, especially the ones chambered for calibers like .223 or .308. The lack of match grade 7.62x39 in this country hurts the achievable accuracy of rifles chambered for that cartridge though many people have done well with handloads.

HorseSoldier
March 31, 2008, 06:30 PM
Keep hold of your pistol grip, reach and grab your fresh mag from your pouch.

Use the fresh mag to sweep the mag release and knock the depleted mag away from the rifle.

Lock the new mag in place.


Under stress it seems like a lot of people, even with this technique, add an extra step "fumble with magazine, missing mag well entirely or messing up the rocking/locking motion."

I'm willing to believe that with lots of practice a guy can get pretty good at this technique, but it's one of those situations where the AK shooter is chasing the speed an AR (or various other weapons) can do, and where an entry level shooter can get much better/faster with the AR for the same amount of training time/effort.

R127
March 31, 2008, 11:17 PM
True enough but at the same time it isn't exactly uncommon to not fully seat an AR mag. Kind of the reason for the first "S" in "SPORTS." Training and experience will always be important no matter what platform. If you remove that factor and start talking about retaining the empty mag I haven't seen any meaningful difference in speed between the two.

coondawg47
March 31, 2008, 11:36 PM
I carried all versions of the M-16, A1, A2 and the short barrel monstrosity called the M-4 for about 25 years. I never liked the mag lockup design of the M-16 as it is not positive. I have seen many mags fall out of M-16s after being slapped in. The AK/M-14 style of lock up is positive in the respect I can hear and feel that the mag is locked and secure. So maybe it is effective for 3-gun play matches but is not as effective as the AK/M-14 system for real life. I have also seen and experienced the M-16 mag release get bumped while moving tactically (low crawl, high crawl, rush and roll) and drop the mag, this is very disconcerting when getting to your next position of cover and you only have one round, the one in the chamber. Guess thats when the rapid mag change would be a big bonus.

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