[Im283]

GotC tell us more

Fuff, I am not referencing the Deadwood TV show. This was Wild West Tech. I believe the channel guide said it was produced in 2006 or 2004. Odd that this was the first time I have seen this episode of that show. Did not think i have missed any of them.

According to todays show Wild Bill went into a saloon to play cards and someone in the game he wanted in had the chair whose back was to the wall. Bill asked for the chair and the guy sitting in it refused to give it up. Bill then sat with his back exposed. Some guy whose name I do not recall came through the back door, saw Bill sitting exposed and took advantage of that situation. I think they said the man who shot him had accused Bill of killing his brother which was supposedly not true.

Deadwood having no real court or law at the time took the shooter and tried him a miners court and he was acquited and run out of town. Later in another town he drunkenly bragged of his killing Wild Bill and was arrested by local authorities and tried, found guilty and hanged.

[Shawnee]

The shooter was Jack McCall.

:cool:

[Old Fuff]

Generally speaking your summary is historically correct according to accounts made at the time. But to my knowledge no comments were made in connection with Hickok being armed, or what he was armed with.

While the revolvers Wild Bill carried during his Kansas years have been documented, nothing of a contemporary equivalent came out of Deadwood. During the short time he was there he was not a peace officer, and apparently did not go around openly armed. He supported himself by gambling, and some financial help from his friends. I doubt that he was seeking any gunfights because it’s pretty clear he was going blind. This being the case I doubt that anyone, except for a few close friends at the most, would have any opportunity to see what arms, if any, he was carrying – obviously concealed. If these friends knew anything they didn’t leave it in any known records. Hickok did write letters to his family and wife, some of which still exist, but none of them mentioned weapons in any form.

There is on account, written by a stagecoach driver or passenger that said he was armed with two Colt revolvers converted to shoot metallic cartridges when he was riding in the stage on his way to Deadwood. However the truthfulness of the storyteller is unknown, and there is no confirmation of the account from other sources. Do remember that holsters (called “scabbards”) used then covered most of the gun, and one couldn’t tell a percussion model from a cartridge one by simply looking.

I am reasonably sure that his famous pair of 1851 Navies weren’t converted, because one is still with us, and in it’s original form. He could have course owned other revolvers, but keep in mind that at the time he was going through hard financial times, and his eyes were failing. Under the circumstances I don’t think he went out and bought new revolvers. If he did, they have never been found, nor were they in his effects that were sent to his wife and/or family.

One other observation: Gamblers usually didn’t carry revolvers on their belt. Should any argument come up they would be hard to get to, and dropping one’s hands below the edge of the table would present a signal that was sure to start the ball rolling…

[Im283]

WWT did not document any source for the claim of conversion revolvers, maybe the stage coach story is their basis for this.

I think it was Peter Sherayko on camera talking about it. Sherayko if anyone cares is a gun wrangler for movies. I know he did the guns for the movie Tombstone and also played Texas Jack Vermillion in the movie.Of course his being a gun wrangler does not prove anything about Hickok. But in a biography of his found at
http://www.filmreference.com/film/19/Peter-Sherayko.html
one of his credits is : Stage Appearances Appeared as Cody,
Cody ... An Evening with Buffalo Bill

I guess it doesn't matter really, but anytime I see percussion revolvers in movies it perks me up a bit.

I would agree that gamblers back in the day especially ought to keep their hands on the table.

Anyway gun history like this fascinates me. Anyone know of any other famous percussion pistoleros?

[StrawHat]

I seem to recall Skeeter Skelton mentioning that J. W. Hardin started with a Colt 1860.

R.E. Lee carried a Colt M1851 and a Colt Root revolver.

J.E.B. Stuart, and a passel of others also carried percussion at that time.

[scrat]

there was a good article of wild bill in the last issue of. Guns of the old west.

[Pancho]

On a previous post back in Nov, 07 I wrote about a YouTube film showing the dedication of a new display in the Deadwood town museum. It seems that the town paid $200,000 for two of Bills pistols. The film didn't say what they were and the display was not shown well but one of the guns was a break down like a Shoelfield and the other looked like an early Colt cartridge revolver.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

It would seem reasonable to assume that the man actually owned more than 2 revolvers given his line of work and all. Plus I'm sure he must have kept a good supply of spare parts....

[Old Fuff]

Metallic cartridge revolvers didn’t arrive in large quantities in the frontier west until the middle 1870’s. A lot of six-shooter history occurred before that, in particular the 1847 Mexican War, 1849 gold rush and migration to the Pacific Northwest, the Mormon trek to Utah, and the Civil War.

Texas Rangers made history with their Colt revolvers, and so did the Army in numerous clashes with Indians. There was no shortage of fireworks when the James brothers took up train and bank robbery following the war. Most of the cowboys going from Texas to Kansas and back after the Civil War carried cap & ball revolvers. If whatever happened did so before 1875 there is a good chance cartridge revolvers didn’t play a part.

[J.T. Gerrity]

Jesse and Frank James, while riding with Quantrill, would carry 5 or 6 loaded cap-n-ball revolvers in belts and holsters when on raids. During his notorious career, following the war, of robbing trains, Jesse was renowned for brandishing a pair of 1858 New Army pistols.

This page: http://www.schwendguns.us/Photo_Page_One.htm has quite a number of black powder guns along with bios of their owners. The Thuer conversion Armys from Cole Younger are interesting, as well as the gun from Bat Masterson; it's said that Bat would buy up old pistols from pawnshops, then pass them off as the guns he used while sheriffing during the Wild West days.

[Pilot]

There is on account, written by a stagecoach driver or passenger that said he was armed with two Colt revolvers converted to shoot metallic cartridges when he was riding in the stage on his way to Deadwood. However the truthfulness of the storyteller is unknown, and there is no confirmation of the account from other sources. Do remember that holsters (called “scabbards”) used then covered most of the gun, and one couldn’t tell a percussion model from a cartridge one by simply looking.

I am reasonably sure that his famous pair of 1851 Navies weren’t converted, because one is still with us, and in it’s original form.

This is good info. Thanks Fuff. I also saw the History Channel "Wild West Tech of Deadwood" episode. They represented that Bill carried two cartridge converted 1851's due to his eyesight failing. They evidently put credence into the story above which doesn't mean anything to me as I know how truthfull TV can and can't be.

[Old Fuff]

After Hickok was murdered all manner of guns cropped up that were associated with him, and stories abounded. However they were all unique in that his close friends and associates had never seen the guns, or heard the stories previous to his death... :scrutiny:

The little .32 S&W is an example. It was unquestionably buried with him, as was the rifle. The rifle appears to be one he was pictured with while involved in a Wild West Show run by Ned Buntline. That would tend to confirm it's genuine. However no independent source during Bill's day mentioned the revolver. This doesn't make it a fake, just opens a question.

I doubt that he open-carried two large revolvers while in Deadwood. He had no reason too, and he sure wasn't looking for a fight. Since his eyesight was still good enough to play cards I'm sure he could see well enough to load cap & ball revolvers if that was necessary. Had he got into a shooting I don't see where a cartridge revolver would have given him any advantage, but he was VERY familiar with Navy Colts. Earlier accounts in Kansas said he had several pairs of Colt and Remington revolvers. There is no reason to doubt this, but later in his life when he was down on his luck some or all of them probably got sold, or possibly lost when the cards went the wrong way.

Most of the fabled western gunfighters/gunmen did not lead particularly happy or normal lives, and they were far from that portrayed in movies or on TV. Those that are interested in the "real" Wild Bill Hickok, rather then the "reel" one should seek out books authored by Joseph G. Rosa, an Englishman who did an absolutely outstanding job of researching Hickok's history, guns included.

[Im283]

I am suprised that no one ever robbed his grave of those guns, especially if it was common knowledge that they were placed in his coffin.

Funny too how I had always thought that his so called girlfriend was more of a groupie and a stalker than a girlfriend. And if Hickok had any say over the matter she would not be buried next to him.

[Old Fuff]

I am surprised that no one ever robbed his grave of those guns, especially if it was common knowledge that they were placed in his coffin.

He was buried in 1876, and dug up in 1879, a matter of 3 years, and the guns were recovered at that time. Had they be left for a longer period grave robbers might have got them. At the time he was killed the guns probably didn’t have the interest or value that they do now.

Funny too how I had always thought that his so called girlfriend was more of a groupie and a stalker than a girlfriend. And if Hickok had any say over the matter she would not be buried next to him.

Prior to coming to Deadwood he had married, and if he knew that he would spend eternity next to Calamity Jane he would have likely shot whoever was responsible. It is questionable if they were even friends. Her burial next to him was an attempt by some with questionable motives to create a tourist attraction.

[Shawnee]

Hey Old Fuff...

I'm unable to provide a source, but do remember reading some years ago that some of Hickock's contemporaries sort of privately were amused at Hickock's reputation for marksmanship with pistols.
The gist of their comments were usually that WBH's pistol accuracy was really only mediocre, at best, and his successes were indebted more to his speed at repeat fire and an almost eerie coolness in a gunfight. Generally they attributed much of his reputed "accuracy" to the hyper-publicity given the one 70-80yd. shot he made that dropped an adversary with a heart shot.

I have no idea, of course, so... what do you think his skill level probably was ? :)


Thanks, :cool:

[Old Fuff]

Can't say, but after he was killed a lot of stories went around that would have never surfaced while he was alive... :uhoh:

During his heyday before his eyes failed him, he occasionally gave demonstrations of his shooting skills - which were considerable - for friends and news reporters. While some later stories were obviously exaggerated, there is no question that he was both fast (for that day) and accurate.

[Pancho]

Shawnee, That is an interesting thought. Accuracy versus nerve. I would think that the most practiced marksman could fall apart and not be able to hit the ground if the target was intent on killing him. It reminds me of great quarterbacks being able to concentrate on their passing targets while hundreds of pounds of human meat were bearing down on them intent on tearing of their head.

[DrLaw]

Some of the questions here seem to have the tone of Old Fuff actually having been there when the Bill Hickock stuff happened. :confused:

Now, I kind of doubt that, but since you DO have over 10,000 posts, O.F., one has to wonder? :D:evil::rolleyes:

The Doc is out now. :cool:

(:evil: The Devil made me do it!)

[Old Fuff]

The Doc is out now.

You'd better be... :neener: :D

And just who do you think it was that talked Bill out of using them new fangled metal cartridges when cap-loads were so much more reliable??? :what: :D

[DrLaw]

I KNEW IT!!!!!!!!! :D:D

The Doc is back out again. :cool:

[Pancho]

Old Fuff, If you weren't there you sure have done your homework. Myself I've been trying to solve a small mystery. About 10 years ago a local cemetery erected a large black headstone on an old grave with the deadman's hand spread across the top and the inscription that "Here lies Charlie Rich the man that dealt the deadman's hand to Wild Bill Hickock".
The stone was removed a few years later for reasons I've yet to determine. I've stopped by a couple of times in hopes of finding the caretaker to ask him about it but as yet have not been able to connect.
The cemetery is in Southwestern Ohio in a little burgh named Miamiville. I haven't given up and will continue to stop by and find out what's going on.

[Im283]

what was the off card in that two pair hand?

[Pancho]

I can't remember the kicker but I would bet that there are guys reading this thread that do. The head stone was beautiful, a black granite monolith 5 foot tall with the card hand in color.

[Shawnee]

I'm just one of those hard-headed, ne'er-do-well southwestern Ohio boys who happens to believe there is, in fact, a very natural "pointability" about the 1851/61 Navies. I know the Ergonomic experts say it's impossible but they are simply wrong as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway - it seemed very plausible to me that great hand-speed coupled with the natural pointability of the weapon and coolness under fire would probably be greater assests back in Yesteryear than simon-pure accuracy. And since the nature of gunfights generally places a premium on emerging the victor, and since the Colts were not fitted with any but the most crude sighting arrangements, it seems logical to think Ol' Bill's nerve and his gun-handling were his "aces in the hole" in such matters.

I thought the fifth card never got dealt - or at least not before Ol' Bill was reaching for his harp. :confused:

[Old Fuff]

I KNEW IT!!!!!!!!!

The Doc is back out again.

You'd better go into hiding... I'm a fair hand with a Navy myself. :evil: :D

[apachejack]

im283- since you ask about gunplay in the 1800's I'm going to regale you with a story about Frank James. My Grandfather was a deputy sherrif in Crane, Mo. in the late 1880's and early 90's. He had to help out at the state fair of Mo. where ever it was held back then. He and Frank James had a very serious shootout at one of the booths set up at the fair. My grandfather never told me who shot the most ducks at that shooting gallery but he did tell me that Frank James was a very nice gentleman and a very good shot. I used to love to listen about all the gangs of outlaws he told me about and I think that is why I love the old west guns so much today. I have checked with kin about this story and they all told me it was very true and my grandfather knew several of the old outlaws at one time or another, heck he may have even been an outlaw if the truth were known.

[Im283]

I'm just one of those hard-headed, ne'er-do-well southwestern Ohio boys

I was one of them for about thirty years. :)

nice story apachejack, wish my family history was more colorful.

[Perk]

Perk, was you comment directed at my Wild Bill comment? Not that it matters, but I always thought he had only percussion revolvers, I found it interesting they claimed today that he had converted models.

Im283 – Naw, it was directed towards another. Had mentioned about Wild Bill, in an offhand-comment-figure-of-speech kind of way and got taken at my word. My fault. Should have either been more correct, or vaguer, in my statement. ;)

[J.T. Gerrity]

It's interesting to note that when WB was re-buried they found that the body had calcified due to ground minerals, and that it weighed several hundred pounds. Took several big. strapping men to move the coffin...

Make no mistake, Wild Bill was an amazing shot (his 75 yard shot with a .36 Navy that put down Dave Tutt was not likely a fluke); mainly due to his incredible nerve. And he used a reverse draw, which is tough to master. Also, one eyewitness account said the WB aimed his guns with his elbow slightly bent, not straight out and stiff like we do it...

[Cowboy2]

I've always thought that a certain cold-bloodedness was probably the real secret to the gunfighter's success. Don't get me wrong, marksmanship and having a cool head obviously have a crucial role. But most people have an internal "safety" of sorts when it comes to taking human life. It isn't that we can't, its that most people seem to have hesitation hard-wired into them at the moment of truth. The Army devotes a lot of time trying to remove it.

I sorta think guys like Wild Bill survived in no small part due to the simple fact that they were more willing to, or rather had no hesitation about, dropping the hammer on another human being. Maybe they just lacked that internal "whoa, do I really want to do this?" sort of safety that most of us seem to have.

[BigG]

If you haven't read Triggernometry (http://www.epinions.com/review/Triggernometry_A_Gallery_of_Gunfighters_With_Technical_Notes_on_Leather_Slapping_As_a_Fine_Art_Gathered_from_Many_a_Loose_Holstered_Expert_over_the_Years_by_Eugene_Cunningham/content_113377709700), you should. Eugene Cunningham wrote early enough to have met some of the people who knew the gunfighters and could get the anecdotal stuff from eyewitnesses.

Wild Bill usually kept his pistols thrust butt forward into a broad Mexican sash wrapped around his middle. He would cross his arms and his hands would rest on the butts of his guns so his quick draw was already half started.

Follow the link to read more about the book.

[luckytexan]

Here's my favorite Wild Bill quote: "You can beat the Hell out of me shootin' at pieces of paper, but I can beat you when it comes to hittin' men."

Source: R.L Wilson's The Peacemakers. Wilson has several other quotes from eyewitnesses and such regarding Hickok's abilities, along with the exquisite photos that distinguish his books.

[scrat]

i like that one. makes sense.

[J.T. Gerrity]

Wild Bill... would cross his arms and his hands would rest on the butts of his guns so his quick draw was already half started

Actually, Wild Bill used a reverse (or "twist") draw to yank those Navys, and did not cross his arms (like in a cross-draw). That's where you twist your hand around to grab the forward facing grips, then twist the guns forward as you pull them from the holster and bring them to bear. I've practiced this draw and it ain't easy, I'll tell you. But he mastered it, and was said to be quite fast with it.

Also, I don't agree with the "cold-hearted killer" observation. Wild Bill was devastated when he accidentally shot his own deputy (and best friend) Mike Williams during a smoke-shrouded, fast-paced shoot-out in Kansas. He gave up marshalling and nearly hung up his guns; the only reason he didn't was because there were so many out gunning for him.

[BigG]

Actually, Wild Bill used a reverse (or "twist") draw to yank those Navys, and did not cross his arms (like in a cross-draw). That's where you twist your hand around to grab the forward facing grips, then twist the guns forward as you pull them from the holster and bring them to bear. I've practiced this draw and it ain't easy, I'll tell you. But he mastered it, and was said to be quite fast with it. Um - that's a standard cavalry draw. I believe Cunningham said he pulled them cross draw, but would have to look it up. I wonder how you know that he pulled them from the same side?

Also, I don't agree with the "cold-hearted killer" observation. Wild Bill was devastated when he accidentally shot his own deputy (and best friend) Mike Williams during a smoke-shrouded, fast-paced shoot-out in Kansas. He gave up marshalling and nearly hung up his guns; the only reason he didn't was because there were so many out gunning for him.

I don't think characterizing him a cold-hearted is exactly fair either. He was willing to kill an opponent, and that gave him the edge on a man who hesitated.

[sundance44s]

I read somewhere ..the kicker card in Bills hand was ..the 9 of diamonds ..
Thats the way it is displayed in DeadWood at the museum anyway ..
I did try his 75 yard shot with a 36 cal Navy ...it is possible because I don`t shoot my 36 cal Navy much at all and I made the shot free handed .
Ole Bill could have worn me out with a Colt Navy I`m sure .

[mec]

QUOTE] am suprised that no one ever robbed his grave of those guns, especially if it was common knowledge that they were placed in his coffin[/QUOTE]

I have heard that after they reburied him, they poured a few tons of concrete over the grave to keep the robbers out. Not sure if portland cement had been re-invented at that time or not but the grave does appear to be solid. the story was that JB was solid himself having taken on the aspect of a fossil from the mineral seepage in the local soil. There is some conjecture that he had gonococcal catarachs and that he might have gotten the clap from Martha Jane. One of the Wild West Tech episodes claimed that the popular term for the bullhead clap was "The Calamity" and this might account for Jane's nickname.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/findagrave/photos/2000/300/5055650_970001571.jpg[

[J.T. Gerrity]

Um - that's a standard cavalry draw

I believe the standard Cavalry set-up was sword on the left drawn cross-handed by the right hand, with the pistol butt-forward on the right to be drawn cross-draw with the left hand. I don't believe the reverse draw was common military procedure, but I'll admit I'm not sure about this...

I wonder how you know that he pulled them from the same side

Common knowledge and reports from eye-witnesses. In fact, during the early years on the prairie, this was actually a pretty common technique; the guns were worn butt forward so as to avoid being wounded in the foot or leg due to accidental discharge. Pistoleers subsequently learned to keep one chamber empty; and cartridge guns proved to be a little more reliable in this regard.

One of many excellent books on Wild Bill is "They Called Him Wild Bill" by Joseph G Rosa. Rosa is a scholar of the old west who has extensively researched and studied Wild Bill, even getting permission from the Hickok family to look into old letters and records. He's written several books on Hickok, but this is the best. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in WB.

One thing that was certain is that you just didn't mess with Bill.

P.S. It's interesting to note that Colorado Charlie Utter miss-spelled Hickok's name on his tribute headstone... You'd think Charlie would have known better, seeing as how he spent so much time with WB.

[mec]

Charlie Utter miss-spelled Hickok's name
So did I. and did the dude who engraved the backstraps on that brace of navies attributed to JBH.