[golden]

This started off as a reply in the recent .32ACP thread, but I decided it would get to far off the track.

It was in reference to a dismisal of the STOPPING POWER statistics compiled by MARSHALL & SANOW.


I would not be so fast to dismiss the work of MARSHALL & SANOW, especially based on the work or lack of work by FACKLER!

The stats issued by MARSHALL & SANOW have matched the experience of some other writers working independantly and several major law enforcement agencies.

1. M & S (MARSHALL & SANOW) listed the .357 magnum as the most effective round until the debut of the high velocity .40 caliber rounds. The U.S. Border Patrol and several state police agencies used this round and I never read or heard of any complaints about the stopping power.
PLEASE NOTE: this round would be a poor manstopper if Martin FACKER'S deep penetration criteria were valid. Many of the 125 grain JHP loads pentrate 10 inches or less.
Also, note that the .357 SIG round for semi auto's is now growing in popularity with law enforcement agencies who are finding it offers similar stopping power to the .357 magnum revolver round.

2. The .40 S&W round did not earn much of a reputation until the 155 grain JHP was released. It was developed by for the U.S. Border Patrol after extensive testing based on actual gunfights. The Border Patrol has more experience in gunfights that ALL OTHER FEDERAL AGENCIES PUT TOGETHER.
Since the 155 grain load was adopted, I have not read or heard of any complaints about stopping power. It does not penetrate very deeply, but stops opponents more effectively than any other caliber at the moment.

Note, the I&NS which the U.S. Border Patrol was a part of, permitted officers to carry privately owned SIG-220 .45ACP pistols. If the .40 S&W did not do the job, these people along with all the former .357 magnum carriers, would not be quiet about it.

3. The 10 m.m. auto round fires a heavier bullet than the .40 S&W at the same or even higher velocities. It therefore, based on the deeper penetration criteria should be the ultimate police round. However, I have read it is being dropped by the few agencies that I have heard were using it. According to the M & S critics, this should not be happening.
According to the books published by MARSHALL & SANOW, this round is LESS EFFECTIVE than the .40 S&W (NOTE THAT IN ORDER TO INCREASE THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THE 10m.m. OVER THE .40 S&W, THE SAME LIGHTWEIGHT BULLETT COULD BE DRIVEN TO HIGHER VELOCITIES THAN THE .40 S&W, BUT RECOIL WOULD BE UNACCEPTABLE TO MOST SHOOTERS). If
MARSHALL & SANOW are wrong about the effectiveness of lighter, faster bullets, then why are they working so well for the the U.S.B.P. and other agencies that have adopted this load.

4. M & S also list the .38 Special +P load as effective 75 to 79% of the time. Those police departments that have used this load, Miami-Dade and FBI among others, have also found it effective.

So what has FACKLER published. If deeper penetrating rounds worked so much better, there would be a huge body of evidence by now. Where is it?
Every time FACKLER makes a comment, I note that it is a personal attack or a criticism of how the data was collected or analized. but there are NO PERCENTAGES FROM FACKLER OR ANY OF THE M & S CRITICS!
If somebody who claims that M & S are wrong, please present YOUR EVIDENCE! I would love to see the CORRECTLY ANALIZED method that the M & S work is supposed to be lacking in.

I am just really curious to see SOME FACTS to go along with all the insults to the work done by MARSHALL & SANOW.

I note that the FIREARMS TACTICAL does not publish any statistics on stopping power. Why not? If MARSHALL & SANOW are wrong, gather your own stats and state your criteria. If M & S are wrong, the stats will show it. But, that has not happened. It is just the same old personal attacks.

Just my opinion

Jim

[DougDubya]

Marshall's studies came under fire under the fact that Marshall excluded multiple round failures to stop, which doesn't quite make sense to me.

However, independant studies show that, as a ballpark figure, Marshall tends to be right. Marshall also doesn't work closely with Sanow, since Sanow's a little too iffy in his speculative approach to jello-junkie work.

Also, Fackler himself often gets taken out of context for those who would like to see the 9mm or smaller rounds relegated to peanut gallery paper punching, rather than for defensive use, and Ayoob did an excellent article utilizing Fackler's own studies and evaluation of rounds in comparison to Marshall's studies, and when there were divergences, he came up with compromise rounds.

[outerlimit]

I don't know, I was pretty happy with the performance of my .45 today. A couple of 230gr. +p flyers took big chunks out of a target post (a verticle log) that 9mm's were basically bouncing off of. I used to be big on 9mm, but I'm liking it less and less these days and I'm starting to really wonder about the whole energy vs. momentum argument. There seems to be something to it.

[Halo]

You sure they were bouncing off, or punching through? Ironically one of the main criticisms of 9mm FMJ is that it penetrates too much.

[Ridgerunner665]

Stopping power is way over rated. I know (or knew) 2 guys that would tell you a 22 is deadly (if they were alive)...1 was shot in the neck, a 260 lb. man in prime condition, and that had been shot a few times before and lived to tell about it...not this time...killed him in about 7 seconds.
(This was a bar fight)

The other a smaller guy (190 lbs. or so) 3 rounds of 22 to the chest...also dead within 10 seconds. (This was a fight over a girl...it happened in the street)

No charges were filed in either case...now do I live in a rough neighborhood or what???

The point...shot placement.


Momentum and penetration is another matter...and both depend on just exactly what you are shooting...some rounds do better on hard barriers (light and fast here)...others do better on soft barriers (slow and heavy here).

[johnle]

i think all this stopping power research needs to be thrown out, each human being is a variable.

you shoot accurately and you shoot as many rounds into the BG until the BG gives up or checks outs. If it's one shot, great...but you can never say and guarantee that each person will go down when shot in the same place.

People die from the simplest things and they survive things that aren't survivable and even the most experienced doctors will shrug at you. Human beings are strange and unpredictable. Where as ballistics gel is not, it doesn't have veins, bones, blood, fat, organs or fat and it'll react the same every day all day.

[RobertFBurnett]

you shoot accurately and you shoot as many rounds into the BG until the BG gives up or checks outs. If it's one shot, great...but you can never say and guarantee that each person will go down when shot in the same place.

IIRC after watching guntalktv (http://www.guntalk.tv/site.php) one of the Gunsite instructors (I am going to paraphrase with the understanding that I am simplifying a 2 minute video, by a professional instructor, at a good school) talked about the "Gunsite Failure Drill" you put two shots in center of mass...and then immediately aim for right between the eyes...if its there, shoot it. If you don't have a head shot...shoot what you can when you can.

I personally prefer not to go by one shot kills, .22s are lethal, and alot of ammo is even more lethal in a trained pair of hands (which mine are not, but i'm working on it). I'd rather take some SD courses with my 9mm (Or a .32 in your case) than pretend my 12 gauge is going to win me a fight based on power alone.

imho+my Buck-0-5,

RFB

[makarovnik]

Big heavy bullets at over 1400 FPS should get the job done.

I wonder why more military forces don't issue .22LR calibers for their sidearms?

A .22LR bullet can be deadly but I think a 10MM kills 'em faster most of the time.

[Ridgerunner665]

Big, heavy, bullets at over 1400 fps...what are you carrying...a 45-08???

10MM kills 'em faster most of the time...thats true...most of the time. But the 10mm is not the top rated 1 shot stopper...because it has too much velocity and too much bullet (overpenetration). The 357 mag with lighter bullets does a better job because of more violent expansion. The 45 acp (my personal preference) does it with frontal area (this displaces more tissue than most give it credit for...but its also known to overpenetrate in soft tissue). The 40 S&W is a pretty good round...decent size (caliber), and not as much speed as the 10mm (less penetration). I love a good friendly argument.

[golden]

Kidding Right?

Did you forget the RECOIL of a heavy bullet at 1,400 fps. If you can handle it, fine. I would bet that 10 % or less of shooters can handle a high recoil 10m.m. load in a normal shooting scenario.

When I qualify with my .40 S&W, I manage it without any problems. If I had to handle the MUCH heavier recoil of a hot 10 m.m. load, I do not know if I could qualify.

Have you ever tried to shoot a qualification drill with your 10 m.m.? Would you carry this gun if you did qualify. I want a lightweight gun that would hurt my back at the end of a 12 hour shift. That means recoil is an issue. The 10 m.m. is out for that reason alone.

Also, if the .40 S&W is good for 94 % stopping power, how much better is the 10m.m.? The more powerful .44 magnum is LESS EFFECTIVE. All the extra energy just goes to waste as overpenetration.

One the criticism that MARSHALL did not use multiple hits is legitimate. So why doesn't someone else study it? I am not being sarcastic. It would make for some interesting work.

Jim

[Matt-J2]

I only have one thing to say on this matter:

When I'm looking for a one shot stop, I'll shoot at least 3 times. One of them is bound to stop the BG.

[Ridgerunner665]

Well said Matt. And a good idea too.

[USMCDK]

Also, note that the .357 SIG round for semi auto's is now growing in popularity with law enforcement agencies who are finding it offers similar stopping power to the .357 magnum revolver round.

I am not trying to be a jerk, but can you give me a magazine/website that has an article or two, to back this statement up. I only say this because this thread is titled show me the... so now I am asking of you the same thing. Thank you

and Ayoob did an excellent article utilizing Fackler's own studies and evaluation of rounds in comparison to Marshall's studies, and when there were divergences, he came up with compromise rounds.

Another +1 for Massad, god I would love to meet this person...

Stopping power is way over rated. I know (or knew) 2 guys that would tell you a 22 is deadly (if they were alive)...1 was shot in the neck, a 260 lb. man in prime condition, and that had been shot a few times before and lived to tell about it...not this time...killed him in about 7 seconds.
(This was a bar fight

One: those gents were right about them being deadly if you are at close range and that's why it's an Assassin's bullet. It's used as such in European coutries where they have those mass gathering with some CIP kinda person with political view and decides to walk throught the mass crowd only to have a .22lr round logged into his head at two inches away. the bullet never leaves turning his brain into jello pudding. BTW what was the caliber or mm that shot him in the neck???

Matt to quote a man in our very distant past, for what you have just said. "Speak softly, but carry a BIG stick"

[golden]

Matt,

Are you talking 3 shots in a failure to stop drill or are you talking about 3 shots into a target that keeps on coming because he can no longer feel your shots and even though he may be dying, he is still coming at you and maybe shooting ?

The killer in the Miami massacre, was already dead from a wound he had received, but he still went on to shoot several more FBI agents.

Jim

[golden]

USMCDK,

The two large agencies that I have read adopting the .357 SIG are Texas State Police and Secret Service. I cannot tell you where I read it.

[USMCDK]

I cannot tell you where I read it.

okay I'll take it. If you can try to find out and let me know that would be great or is it one of those If I told you I'd have too... kinda things??? LoL

[Ridgerunner665]

USMCDK,
They were both shot with a 22...then one the neck was one of those neat lil Beretta's with the flip up barrel (cant remember the model name)...the other was a Hi Standard 9 shot revolver.

The guy with the Beretta fired 6 rounds...only one hit him from about 10 yards away....David had already kicked Jesse's a$$ and was walking away when Jesse shot him. If I had been paying closer attention he may not have shot him...but by the time I saw the gun it was too late...I did however thoroughly stomp him in the face (he was still on the floor) and get the gun away from him...David was a good friend of mine.

The other guy that got shot with the revolver...coincidentally named David too...he deserved it. 3 rounds fired...all 3 were in the heart.

[JohnBT]

www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/#Agencies

Long list of .357 Sig users, although I'm not sure how up-to-date it is.

I know the Virginia State Police adopted it in 1997 and the Richmond City police did too at some point.

John

[Phil DeGraves]

"Another +1 for Massad, god I would love to meet this person..."

He's a member here. PM him.

You can't separate stopping power from the user. Back in the day when .45 and .357 were thought to be king, who was using them? The gun guys. The people that couldn't shoot preferred the 9mm and the .38 because they were easier to qualify with. If you gave all the gun guys who practice a lot .32s and the non-shooters who don't practice .45s and get five years of data, the .32 would end up as being STATISTICALLY more effective. Why? because the users were more effective.
I think what can be said is that a good hit with a FMJ .45 is probably better than the same hit with a FMJ 9mm because of the larger diameter wound channel. Of course, if they are both in the eye, it probably won't make a bit of difference.

[DougDubya]

You can't separate stopping power from the user. Back in the day when .45 and .357 were thought to be king, who was using them? The gun guys. The people that couldn't shoot preferred the 9mm and the .38 because they were easier to qualify with. If you gave all the gun guys who practice a lot .32s and the non-shooters who don't practice .45s and get five years of data, the .32 would end up as being STATISTICALLY more effective. Why? because the users were more effective.
I think what can be said is that a good hit with a FMJ .45 is probably better than the same hit with a FMJ 9mm because of the larger diameter wound channel. Of course, if they are both in the eye, it probably won't make a bit of difference.

Quoted for truth.

One thing I noticed about Chuck Taylor is that he never had a problem with .45 ACP FMJ ball. For five instances, he got five heart shots and five one-shot stops.

With such skill and accuracy, I'm fairly certain he'd have been able to do the same with a .380 or a 9mm, if they came in the same ergonomic package as a 1911.

Clearly a demonstration of the real factors in stopping power being The User, the User's Interface with to Tool, with the size of the nail proving irrelevant.

[CWL]

Fackler doesn't know what he's talking about? You mean the Army Surgeon/Pathologist commissioned by the military & then FBI to study wound ballistics? The same Martin Fackler who has personally operated on gunshot victims in the battlefield as well as personally autopsied countless gunshot victims? This must be the same Fackler that publishes his findings in military, FBI and medical journals.

Marshall & Sanow, two guys (one LEO) with no medical, science,statistical, ballistic training who, without the sanctioning of any LE Agency, 'claims' to have gotten access to medical data of all gunshot wounds from police and medical/hospitals? How? Strange that they have never released any of their study data.

Strange how my mother, a retired surgical pathologist, tells me that in her days of examining gunshot victims, would have to weigh the bullet + any fragments to try and guess what kind of bullet(s) they were. Repeat, surgeons/pathologists cannot easily-tell what bullet caliber & weight was used shootings (but M&S is certain down to grain weight).

If you are such a believer in M&S, all you need is one .357 Magnum round in your gun. Since it has 95% chance one-shot stop rating. :rolleyes:

[DougDubya]

CWL - one point or two

Caliber and bullet weight from these shootings tend to be easy to find, in regards to issued ammunition and firearm on the part of the shooter. Any information without photographs and weight records of the recovered round was excised from the study.

Second - Your statement of one .357 Magnum being needed pretty much goes against Evan Marshall's personal philosophy to carry a minimum of three handguns, and Marshall's self-defense plan of firing his handguns as he makes his way to his defensive RIFLE.

Third - Marshal and Sanow are not one homogenous being, and Marshall no longer works with the man from JELLO.

[mpmarty]

Just because it seems harder to shoot well is no reason to give up on 200gr bullets at over 1200fps out of a pistol with fifteen round flush fitting magazines. The 10mm has been demonized as "too much recoil" by the same fools who shoot 357 magnums in medium frame revolvers. I have three 10mm pistols and they are quite capable of doing .35 second "splits" on double taps and staying in the "A" zone. Perhaps the three Tanfoglio all steel pistols are a bit heavy, even the compact model, but as nightstand guns they are hard to beat. For carry I like something around a pound and a half loaded so my CCW is a Taurus PT145 with 185gr Barnes flyin ash trays but this is a matter of giving up range and power for something that I pack all day every day. In a real gunfight, give me my 10mm and stand back, there is no such thing as too much power in a basically underpowered handgun compared to a real firearm such as an M14. And if the .40 is such a wonderful "manstopper" how come all the PDs are issuing ARs and such? Face it, a .40 S&W is nothing but a poor compromise on size, recoil and power which was forced on the FBI due to their female agents inability to deal with a 10mm.

[CWL]

DougDubya,
When people talk "stopping power" they are quoting from the book made famous by Marshal and Sanow. Whether they are no-longer affiliated, their names will always be tied-together.

Also, the statistcs presented in their book, listed stopping-power % for every single design, caliber and wt. available for sale at that time. I sincerely doubt that every single caliber and type of bullet ever made was not-only issued by a LE Agency BUT had also been used in a documented shoot.

Once again, everyone would like to see the raw data. Based on what I know about the medical profession and how police handle shootings (especially officer-involved), NOBODY gets the information unless directly involved.

Lastly, I just took a look at your link, you need to talk to your publisher. In your next action book, for the cover art, make sure that the model has his finger off-of the trigger! ;)

[Ridgerunner665]

Why must everybody try to justify their chosen favorite...there many good ones...what works for you may not work for me. Having said that...I like my commander length/officers framed 1911 in 45 acp...why???
#1-Because it will get the job done...without a doubt.
#2- Because I can hit golf balls at 25 yards with it.
#3- I can empty a several mags very fast, into a small target.
#4- Ammo is easy to find.
#5- Its got lot if history behind it...and its still one of the most popular calibers there is...for obvious reasons.
#6- I like big holes.
#7- Real men carry .45's (had to throw some fuel on the fire :))

[golden]

mpmarty,

I have a nice heavy 10m.m. and also a .41magnum. I would not use either of them for self defence or law enforcement for several reasons.

As you pointed out, they are heavy. I may wear mine for up to 16 hours a day. Weight becomes a real factor, so to avoid pain, I limit my carry gun weight to 1.5 pounds. A few more or less is not important.
The recoil that goes with it is. If you can get .35 splits great. Do it with you 1.5 pound 10m.m. and then shoot a 72 round qualification with it. Get back to me on that.

As far as the .40S&W being weak, you are kidding. I do not think that recoil was as much of a problem for the FBI (they were using the WEAK 10m.m. mid power load). The real problem would have been GUN WEIGHT and GRIP SIZE.

As far as I know, LONG, LONG AGO, they issued shotguns. Care to put up ANY 10m.m. load ever made against a load of 00 buck or a 12 gauge slug?

AR-15 rifles have become popular because they give patrol officers range to deal with a sniper, firepower to deal with multiple assailants and a fair chance of living if they encounter heavily armed criminal like the bank robbers in California.

Jim

[golden]

CWL,

If I remember right, the fued between FACKLER and MARSHALL began when they were both on the FBI panel as consultants. FACKLER supported the FBI'S desire to put the Miami massacre's fault on a single SILVERTIP bullet not stopping a killer, PLATT I believe. MARSHALL did not, hence, FACKLER became the FBI poster child and MARSHALL was ignored by the bureau.
To recap, with at least 6 or 7 FBI agents shooting at the bad guys (the eighth agent dropped his gun and did not shoot during the gun battle), they were cut down by ONE ASSAILANT.
The results were so bad, that lectures were given at FLETC on how the Miami massacre was a case of WHAT NOT TO DO IN A GUNFIGHT (FLETC is the FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT TRAINING CENTER).
I recommend that you find a copy of one of the several gunfight aftermath reports. It will put the

As far as your mother's experience, how would a surgeon know what caliber was used when they have a through and through wound without a bullet, a fragmented hollowpoint or even a un-deformed fmj bullet.
More importantly, what would a surgeon know of the actual battle?

A surgeon sees a wounded patient brought into a hospital. They have ALREADY BEEN STOPPED! FACKLER could not see any part of an actual battle unless he interviewed others who were at the scene, read the officer's reports (were officer involved) or saw a video of it. For all he would know, it could be a piece of shrapnel from a mortar until he removes it.

ASLO, PLEASE NOTE THAT FACKLER PROBABLY DOES NOT SEE THE "ONE SHOT STOPS THAT ARE ALSO FATALITIES". They dead do not need surgery.

MARSHALL makes no claim for this, only that he reads the reports or interviews the participants. He then obtains the type of ammo used from the department or shooter or the police report.

Also, CWL, every shooting eventually becomes a matter of public record when the case is closed. MARSHALL was also a police officer at the time he started gathering his stats. In DETROIT, getting murder info would have been pretty easy for a cop.

ONE LAST THING, PLEASE TELL ME WHERE I CAN FIND SOME OF FACKLER'S STATS. THAT IS ALL I AM ASKING FOR.

Jim

[DougDubya]

CWL - considering that Marshall drew his data from thousands of sources, he was able to get the types of ammunition used in those shootings. Law abiding citizens and Law Enforcement generally keep track of their fighting ammunition, and there are records of the firearms used in those shootings.

As for the covers of my books, I gave up on them. Though, I was able to get my comic book artist to keep the finger in ready position, not always on the trigger. :p

I never cared for Sanow's individual work. However, ask Marshall. He put up strict guidelines for what was allowed and what wasn't allowed in his study.

http://www.stoppingpower.net/ - I lurk there, and by all means, Marshall has a lot of posts, especially about "defending him from other researchers."

1st of all, it isn't necessary. If it was I'm perfectly capable of protecting myself. I spent 20 yrs as a Detroit Cop-I'm neither shy or afraid to do WHATEVER'S NECESSARY. Because I don't make profanity a part of my conversation, people might think I don't get angry or even. Neither is true-there are alot of people in prison, serving life-no parole, who thought they could outsmart me.

Second-I SIMPLY DON'T CARE WHAT OTHERS THINK. As long as my wife, children, grandchildren&dog love me-I go thru life without a care.

Third, I know what I know and have seen what I've seen. As a friend in the Federal system said, "We've never shared shooting data with Evan and our results mirror his-if he made this up he should be using his talents to write Tom Clancy type novels and get rich!".

I get along fine with people at the FBI and other agencies and if they want to disagree with me-that's cool. Buford Boone is a super guy and the Bureau is fortunate to have him where he's at.

[DougDubya]

Golden - you're grasping at straws. Marshall has his data. Fackler has his data.

Why drive a wedge when you haven't even shown a reference to Fackler's work?

[USMCDK]

You are so bad sometimes Ridge

I don't know wheter or not your last post is trollish or just plain truth LoL.

But at least it came from the heart and hopefully that never gets shot by someones .22lr all the stopping power one will ever need LOL!!! (Gasoline anyone???)

[pete f]

People are like houses, they have foundations, electrical systems and plumbing systems. you can break down any of the three and the house stops working.

Electrical system, cut the spine or damage the brain and fights over, no matter what you're shooting. .177 pellet to 155 howitzer. fastest of all three.

structure, break down the pelvis or the hip thigh bones, thug is immobilized, not stopped as threat, but unable to chase you down if you run. Usually this takes a pretty good sized bullet to break down. I would say at least a 38/9mm to accomplish a broken hip/pelvis.

plumbing, if they spring a leak, they got troubles, but its like a house, small leaks can just cause cosmetic damage, like a leaky pipe that stains the drywall, to a broken main, which floods the system and stops the water from moving to the head upstairs. You hit a high pressure line with something small, it will drain out the system pretty fast, chop it in half with a bigger bullet, and pressure will drop in seconds.

a .22, or 25 or .32 will kill someone if you sneak that bullet into the right spot, I want a nice big .45 that plows right on thru and settles things as fast as possible. I dread any chance of being in a gun fight or shooting. But if it happens I want it to be one of BOOOM thud, vs. bangbangbang bang bang bang..................thud

[JohnKSa]

The problem with trying to compile "stopping power" statistics is eliminating the human variable.

It's been documented that the majority of people shot will immediately give up/fall down regardless of the severity of the wound. Not because of the pain or injury, but because that's what they think should happen to a person who's been shot. If you count everyone who falls down or instantly gives upon being shot, you have to realize that most of those people you're counting as "one shot stops" are stopping for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the caliber being used.

In other words, the biggest influence on whether a person stops or doesn't stop is how they are predisposed to react, not the size, weight or velocity of the bullet that hits them.

The next biggest influence on whether a person stops or doesn't stop (and how fast he stops) is based on where the bullet hits. If an attacker isn't predisposed to stop or doesn't realize he's been shot (which is fairly common), then he will only stop if he is incapacitated. You don't incapacitate someone by destroying a few cubic inches of tissue unless those few cubic inches of tissue are critical to the short term operation of the human that contains them. There's a LOT of tissue in the human body that can be damaged without affecting how well that human can operate in the short term. The author of one commonly quoted FBI document on handgun wounding characterized the typical handgun bullet as destroying about 0.07% of a 180lb person. But bigger calibers will destroy more tissue, right? Sure, but we're talking hundredths of a single percentage point.

Nobody likes to hear this but it's the truth.

You don't buy REAL stopping power in a box. You earn it at the range.

[JCMAG]

Well said JohnKSa.

I think stopping power is very important. It is what you want to happen: Bad guy comes, you shoot him, he is stopped. I wouldn't care for "killing power" or "cutting-in-half-power"--I'd be perfectly happy with stopped.

Now which gun stops best, that is a different question altogether. It will depend on your own ability to handle that particular caliber efficiently, under stress. In other words, the gun that you are best trained, most comfortable, and most confident in.

Perhaps for military and police weapons evaluators, this whole statistics war thing is pertinent. But those folks are lucky, they have lots of comrades to consult and learn from their experience. At this point, cartridges like 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, and .45 ACP, the rounds most likely used by LE and military, are quite well known for their general performance, which is what these types of organizations would use these kinds of statistics for -- generalizations.

Statistics can dance until the end of time, but what really matters at the end of the day is what works for you.

[USMCDK]

Statistics can dance until the end of time, but what really matters at the end of the day is what works for you.

Well spoken my friend well spoken.

Hey BTW welcome to THR I hope that your experience here is as good if not better then mine. I have only been here for like 2months and I love this place good knowledge and good people, not to leave out our Moderator or Admins. Speaking of them, you will find that they really do care about the members here and not just each other like some forum boards that I have been on.

All in all the people here are awesome the threads are always packed with some thing to read, and hopefully you will logout with more knowledge about firearms then you knew before you logged in. Good luck and happy posting

[golden]

I agree with your comment about the many variables when dealing with people. That is why I think developing statistics with large groups can help. That is also why I complain about FACKLER and the remarks from the FACKLERITE/heavy bullet crowd.

Aside from MARSHALL & SANOW, the few other studies all seem to support what M&S have espoused. I do not know of ANY studies (as opposed to ancedotes and opinions) that support FACKLER'S theories. I am not saying he is making it up, I just want to be able to judge for myself and not take his word on it. I have delt with enough well educated professionals to know that ego can play a big part in their work.

I think everyone agrees that a bullet needs to penetrate, but how much. The .357 magnum gets great results with shallow penetration. So how much is enough.

Overall, MASHALL & SANOW have shown that several things work for handgun users.
High velocity increases stopping power. Every round using 9m.m./.38 Special rounds with a velocity over 1,200 fps and a bullet of at least 110 grains is an effective stopper if it expands.
FMJ also has better stopping power, but does not gain a lot and overpenetration becomes a major issue.

Heavy bullets like the 230 grain .45 caliber can work well if they expand. The low velocity minumises the ability to expand unless you are using a bullet like the HYDRO SHOK or other premium bullet which works well at low velocity.
Interestingly, velocity increases do not improve HYDRO SHOK very much. The stats for the ammo that my agency used to issued show the regular velocity 9m.m. HYDRO SHOK and +P+ HYDRO SHOK are only 4 % apart.
You can increase the stopping power of heavy bullets by increasing velocity, but then recoil becomes a real factor, ala the 10m.m. and .45 +P. That limits the application to heavy guns with users who are not recoil sensitive.

One point about recoil. My agency issues the .40 S&W. We have a large amount of female and small statured male officers. They qualify just like everyone else, using the same gun. So much for .40 SHORT & WEAK garbage!
Since this round was adopted, I have NEVER HEARD ANY OF THE USERS COMPLAINING IT WAS WEAK! My department gets to use it in the field, so we would hear about it.

Jim

[USMCDK]

I like it when a woman can shoot a higher caliber round. Don't get me wrong it's nice if they can shoot period and the same goes for men too, I'm not sexist. Hell my wife out shoots me with my own H&K USP45. and she's a tooth pick of a woman, so that says alot in my eyes.

I have to wonder some times as to why some HP's don't bloom, for instance when I shot Winchester .45 HP (in the White box from Wal-Mart) They don't expand, and I am shooting them into a 5gal bucket filled with sand, at even 7-15yards. I do believe that they are 180gr rounds at that.

Stopping power is a must for me and so is not over-pen I have kidz to worry about in the apartment and a wife. Now I have a method that I FEEL is good for in home SD I have the first round as a Glazer (Frangilble filled with bird shot) and then a follow up JHP (Fed-Prem HST-1, some call it a bear claw?). Now this is given that I can fight thru the adrenaline and make the first hit, but if not the glazer will not (WILL NOT) penetrate thru the wall, at which that point i would have to get that Bastid with a JHP hopefully without over-pen.

Now here's a good question... which is more likely to over-pen??? If it over-pen's which would stop in the wall? (Given it be sheet-rock and boards and then sheet-rock again on the other side, standard wall i believe)

(BOTH BULLETS ARE Federal Premium HST-1)

9mm, 40cal, or 45cal???

How's that for us average joes to do some darn homework on this matter?

[pete f]

if your wife outshoots you with your hk why were you stating that she would use your p22 walther for self defense earlier in feb? I am having a hard time believing much of what you say, and feel that most of it is trollism.

[johnle]

this is why you practice often and under stress so YOU DONT MISS IN THE FIRST PLACE and have to worry about a stray bullet.

DO everything in your power to know your target and whats beyond it. I know my house inside and out and what walls are where. If the intruder is standing near the wall and I know there is a chance of someone sleeping behind it I would not shoot unless I had a great shot.

As for bullets not expanding, sand is not fluid its actually quite solid so its not valid to say a .45 winchester USA JHP will not expand because they do (when shot into gel or water)

And as for HST's in 9 .40 and .45 they will all penetrate a walls about the same. HST's are made for tactical use, they'll go through automotive glass and still expand thanks to it's design.

[DougDubya]

if your wife outshoots you with your hk why were you stating that she would use your p22 walther for self defense earlier in feb? I am having a hard time believing much of what you say, and feel that most of it is trollism.

Let's see, Kyle said his wife is a tooth pick thin woman. The HK USP45 is kind of huge for such a woman to carry concealed, while the P22 is of more appropriate size.

No trollism. Just his wife making do with one concealable handgun because the PPS or the P99 Compact aren't available in his market.

[Phil DeGraves]

"High velocity increases stopping power. Every round using 9m.m./.38 Special rounds with a velocity over 1,200 fps and a bullet of at least 110 grains is an effective stopper if it expands."

These are the type of blanket statements that do not stand up to scrutiny. Light, expanding bullets travelling at 1200 fps often fail to penetrate deep enough to reach vital organs precisely because they are expanding! Their isn't some magic number that all of a sudden increases stopping power like 1200fps (unless maybe you're approaching rifle velocities). So, 1199 isn't effective? Nonsense. If the bullet strikes something important hard enough to damage it, then it's a good stopper. Not because of how heavy it is , how big it is, or how fast it's going, but because of WHAT IT HIT AND DESTROYED! That is all!

"Heavy bullets like the 230 grain .45 caliber can work well if they expand."

So you are saying that a 230 grn .45 FMJ won't work because it doesn't expand?

Almost everything will work if the shooter does his part. THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF STOPPING POWER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BULLET DESIGN AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE SKILL OF THE SHOOTER!!!

As John KSa said "You don't buy REAL stopping power in a box. You earn it at the range."

[Lonestar49]

Quote: Now here's a good question... which is more likely to over-pen??? If it over-pen's which would stop in the wall? (Given it be sheet-rock and boards and then sheet-rock again on the other side, standard wall i believe)

(BOTH BULLETS ARE Federal Premium HST-1)

9mm, 40cal, or 45cal???
--------------
...

If I was behind the wall, I would hope that the shooter is shooting just as you have them, 9mm first, 40cal second, and I would worry the most if the shooter was firing 45cal..

Weight and inertia works more effectively than a little more speed with less weight given the wall, being equal to each, bullet, that hits it. Kinda like a bug flying full speed with the wind to its back smashing up and on your windshield and your car is going 130mph vs a small pebble kicked up a tire and your windshied hits it going, say, 60mph, pebble speed is 15mph, impact speed is 75mph, and ya get a crack, weight always wins.. bugs always lose.


Ls

[mavracer]

If I was behind the wall, I would hope that the shooter is shooting just as you have them, 9mm first, 40cal second, and I would worry the most if the shooter was firing 45cal..
you lose all three passed the FBI protocall with flying colors

[Lonestar49]

...

Maybe, maybe not, but given the choice of all 3, I'd hope for 9mm.. still.

Test are run under perfect, controlled, observations, yet throw a kink into the wall and I'd want to be shooting at the BG's with 45 first, then 40cal, if I had a second choice.. Car doors are an excellent example of variables in wall structures, and I've seen where 9mm gets stopped or turned, whereas a 45, thru the same variable, goes straight thru and hits home.. 40cal was second best..

Oh, and USMCDK, I don't think "sand" is a good test for JHP's and their spread ability as, I suspect highly that, it acts just like a backstop, wood, etc., as opposed to soft tissue, or less, but still much better, water, to induce a JHP to spread by means of velocity and impact with soft tissue as they designed to do and act accordingly..

Bottom line, is, there are no guarantees in life, but there are better choices with better odds in one's favor..

IMHO,


Ls

[DougDubya]

Instead of choosing which caliber I'd want to be shot with, after going through a wall, I'd prefer to choose WHERE I'd want to be shot.

Preferably in my right arm, far from any arteries (I'm a southpaw).

[golden]

YES PHIL,

I am saying the .45ACP does not work as well as 9m.m. +P or .40 S&W caliber 155 grain JHP or .357 magnum 125 grain JHP. Do you have evidence to the contrary?
The .45ACP rates around 70% in MARSHALL & SANOW. I have not found anything to dispute this. Jeff COOPER used to give it 19 out of 20, but never gathered any stats.

As for the 1,200 fps. No, it is not magical. It is an approximation. I would carry a .40 S&W 155 grain JHP at 1,150 fps or +P+ 124 grain HYDRO SHOK at 1,179 fps without any worries. In fact, I have carried both on duty.
The 1,200 fps figure includes all 135 grain and some 155 grain .40 S&W loads. It covers 110 grain and 125 grain .357 magnum loads. It might also include the 158 grain bullets, but I worry that they will have too much recoil and penetration, better for hunting.
It would also include all +P+ and most +P 9m.m. rounds. I have found that as a rule, all of these rounds work well to different degrees.
According to M & S, the 9m.m. 124 grain +P+ HYDRO SHOK was good for ONLY 87%, this is still better than .45 FMJ. If you want to carry a .45ACP, then go with a hollowpoint. I have used either HYDRO SHOK or the WINCHESTER white box load.

Jim

[DougDubya]

Uhm, golden, Marshall's studies showed that 185-grain .45 ACP ranks in the high 80's, 200 grain JHP ranks in the 90's, and 230 grain JHP is neck in neck with the .357 Magnum.

However, if you're in a clime without access to JHP's, the FMJ .45 still outdoes 9mm FMJ.

[buzz_knox]

I have not found anything to dispute this. Jeff COOPER used to give it 19 out of 20, but never gathered any stats.

That was just a quick estimation he came up with based on anecdotal evidence from his combat experience and the experience of others. There's plenty of other anecdotal evidence to refute it.

Unfortunately, like most things in the caliber wars, the comment became holy writ for many.

[sm]

Many have already shared my thoughts on all this.

I will add - from my having lived the years I have, seen observed and and experienced what I have and how raised:

When it is time to for something to get injured, maimed or dead, it does, no matter what anything, or anyone has written or said.

I have been in the Main OR of a hospital, and the patient stuck a 4" .357 revolver in his mouth, and pulled a trigger on a .357 loading and lived.

Fella came in to the OR, and had been shot with two, 3" shotgun shells of 00 buck, he lived.

Best recall the fella had 14 holes from gun shots, we had no idea, of what caliber, until removed.
He lived.
Still best recall he was shot with .380 , 9mm, 38spl, .357, .40 cal, and 45ACP...I forget if anything else.
"Did it ever occur to you to find cover?" - doc asked him.

We did a organ harvest on a lady, one .22 short killed her.

25ACP , the reason we did the organ harvest on two more.

.22 caliber is the reason we did another organ harvest on a bad guy.
He shot at a lady with 11 rounds of 9mm from a Glock 26 - was able to reload his Glock 26, and shoot some more and she was hit best recall 7 times with 127 gr + p

She was fighting, running , evading and got a .22 rifle and put him down with a standard velocity 40 gr lrn .22 bullet.

She was supposed to survive, and the bad guy was supposed to die.

-
1929 Colt Detective Special and Old Model 36 S&W revolvers loaded with standard pressure 158 gr LRN bullets.

One shot put down one Cow from the Colt.
One shot put down another Cow from the S&W.

I mean folded and down right there.

Just the way life is, always has been, always will be.



Focus on the target, not the equipment - Will Fennell

[BlindJustice]

1911 with the .400 CorBOn

I'm thinking of getting
250 140 gr. Barnes XPB and
250 155 gr. Barnes XPB

So what's a good warm but not hot velocity
range plus or minus 20 FP for each

WHatever I like best I'll get more of.

I tried going through page 1 as well as page 2
just couldn't get throu it all...

Catch up with yah later.

[Lazuris]

Um, being that I'm not law enforcement nor have I ever been in a gun fight, thank God. I figure if the round is capible of taking a mule deer, I figure its more than enough for some loony trying to get me. Hence, my choice of a .357.

[DougDubya]

Quote:
I have not found anything to dispute this. Jeff COOPER used to give it 19 out of 20, but never gathered any stats.
That was just a quick estimation he came up with based on anecdotal evidence from his combat experience and the experience of others. There's plenty of other anecdotal evidence to refute it.

Unfortunately, like most things in the caliber wars, the comment became holy writ for many.

Also, remember, that 19 out of 20 were the guys who had to fall back on their handgun, then survived to return to friendly lines. Those whose .45's failed generally didn't come back to say "woops, it didn't work" because the Germans and the Nazis tended to cut them to ribbons with rifle fire.

[goon]

When it is time to for something to get injured, maimed or dead, it does, no matter what anything, or anyone has written or said.

I'm inclined to believe that this has more to do with it than pretty much anything else.

[johnle]

while everyone is arguing online...

i'm going to buy a box of ammunition and a range pass.

give me any gun in a caliber that can penetrate the bastard and hurt him enough for him to stop, and I'll do my part by putting the bullets into him.

And if he doesn't stop I'll fight my way to my SOCOM-16 rifle and put some .308 pain into his world.

[buzz_knox]

give me any gun in a caliber that can penetrate the bastard and hurt him enough for him to stop, and I'll do my part by putting the bullets into him.

We have a winner! Mindset and skill before platform and caliber.

[BlindJustice]

Dougdubyah
Also, remember, that 19 out of 20 were the guys who had to fall back on their handgun, then survived to return to friendly lines. Those whose .45's failed generally didn't come back to say "woops, it didn't work" because the Germans and the Nazis tended to cut them to ribbons with rifle fire.

how would you know that lowers the bar even for floor sitting
quarteerbacks imho

outta htis BS thread...
.. .

[RedLion]

"Face it, a .40 S&W is nothing but a poor compromise on size, recoil and power which was forced on the FBI due to their female agents inability to deal with a 10mm."


This kind of argument is gettting on my nerves. I know of a lot of women that can take just as much as most guys. You need to tame down your macho-ness and take a look around. Yeah most women are 'weaker' than men, but last time I checked there's a lot of guys out there that aren't quite 'large' statured except in their gut. I bet you would have had a tough time telling the FBI agents ducking for cover from Bonnie Parker's B.A.R. that short statured women can't shoot.

http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/images1/bonnie&clyde.jpg

[DougDubya]

Blindjustice - how would I know if 1911 handgun failures didn't survive?

It was war. They didn't have a primary rifle or smg to shoot. If their handgun ultimately failed, I doubt that the dead would rise and go back to talk about how their 1911 autos didn't have the power to match a German Mauser or a Japanese Arisaka.

(I meant Germans and Japanese... been a long day writing...)

[DougDubya]

A little clarification - Copper said 19 of 20 incidents he heard of ended in one-shot stops.

Multiple factors -
1 - Soldiers who've been at war for a while may not be in the best of health. Japanese soldiers in island fighting were quite often emaciated, but still engaging in combat.
2 - Modern records show 65-70% or so for effectiveness on 230-grain FMJ ball. 19 incidents at 70% means 27 incidents total. One guy didn't have a perfect one shot stop, seven guys might not have made it back.
3 - Handgun combat was never considered common in any major war.
4 - Jeff Cooper, if he thought that 230-grain FMJ was perfectly adequate would:
4a) not have advocated 230-grain Flat point FMJ which had a much more aggressive profile for cutting through human flesh, thus increasing stopping power.
4b) not have developed the Mozambique drill.
4c) said he only carries a .45 because the .46 did not exist.

And if I said that the .45 was a worthless piece of crap, I wouldn't have given a laundry list of .45's that I like better than .40's, and even then, I omitted my absolute favorite .45, the Commander-sized 1911.

[pat86323]

you know the caliber argument is actually a pretty burned out issue, anyone who says that one caliber is "inferior" i say go stand in a field and let someone shoot you with it. Whether it is a 300 win mag or a 22 it will very likely stop you in pretty short order. There are always the stories about they guy who took 30 40 cal hits and kept going, some are true some are bs. Fact of the matter is that any round placed into the only guaranteed "stopping zone" of brain and spinal cord severance will stop anyone fast. There is nothing left to argue about, this thread started out as a discussion about statistical ballistic efficiency comparisons and very quickly turned into a thread about "my favorite caliber is better then your favorite caliber" so why dont we all just get back to the point and come up with some actual hard facts and get back to something that people can learn from.

[golden]

ALL,

My point in originally bringing up this thread was to see if anyone had the HEAVY BULLET IS BETTER stats or DEEPER PENETRATION IS BETTER stats. Although their has been some name calling, most of the comments seem to me to be ancedotal or opinion and are well argued.

If you do not agree with the MARSHALL & SANOW and the others, then that is your choice. I want the best stopping power in the particular gun that I am carrying with the most control and in some cases, concealability and M&S's work is the only one that I can find is supported by other studies.


In dealing with equipment, it is one variable that we can control BEFORE A FIGHT STARTS. TRAINING IS ANOTHER. ONCE A FIGHT STARTS, THEN WHATEVER YOU BROUGHT TO A FIGHT IS WHAT YOU WILL HAVE TO FIGHT WITH.
A SOCOM 16, AR-15 or 12 guage riot gun are useless if they are in my gun safe or the trunk of a vehicle in the parking lot when the fight starts.

I am only interested in this thread with carrying guns. I like the 1 1/2 pound rule for a belt carried and concealed pistol. In my experience, this weight of gun offers a compromise of comfort, concealibility and control. I tried a 2 1/4 pound (weight of a steel framed 1911) for a while and got really tired of it at the end of 10 hours or more.
I feel the 9m.m. +P+ offers the most power within my control limit.
An exception is with the H&K 2000 that I am issued. It really does have less felt recoil than other similar weight guns, much less than the GLOCK 22 that I owned.
If I exceed this recoil threshold, then my control and accuracy are effected.
In a heavier gun, I like the .40 S&W with 155 grain bullets. I do not know of any load that is more effective. At best, a .45ACP or .357 magnum will equal it, but not exceed. The 180 grain .40 S&W loads do not seem to offer any improvement over the 9m.m. +P, so why bother with more recoil and less capacity.
When, I have shot guns that exceed this limit, such as any 1 1/2 pound .45ACP with 200 or 230 grain loads, my recovery time between shots is longer than when I shoot 9m.m.
If you can get equal or near equal time between accurate shots with a .45ACP or 10 m.m., then that is fine as well. Can you do it with a 1.5 pound gun. Please note that this weight is not arbitrary. GLOCKS and similar guns have been huge sellers to LEO and civilian buyers. I think the weight has something to do with it.
For me and I am willing to bet most people, the 9m.m. +P is the best compromise between effectiveness and control.

Again, where MARSHALL & SANOW'S work is useful, is with backup guns. I often carry an alloy frame or 5 shot steel frame .38 Special. I want to know what works best.
Here recoil is a real factor. I find the .38 Special 158 LHP +P loads to be to hard on me. I can get away with the 125 grain JHP +P if I practice.
What is interesting here is that one of the cheapest loads is the best. The REMINGTON 125 grain semi-jacketed hollow point can be bought in WAL MART for $26.00 a 100 round box. That is a bargain, so I can afford to practice.


I will stick my two cents in on the female shooter debate. Most of the female officers I have worked with, did not shoot as well as I do. A few shot much better with 90% or better on their qualifications. Very few female officers I have known have been gun people, like us.
Now, most of the male officers cannot shoot as well as I do. Not suprising since they are NOT GUN ENTHUSIASTS EITHER. Some should not even be carrying a gun, but it is not my decision. I know, I would not want some of them backing me up in a confrontation. How many gun enthusiasts you will have working with you depends on where you work. Fewer in NEW YORK than MONTANA or TEXAS.

I have also worked with female officers that I would not have any problem with being partnered during a confrontation. Sometimes, the female officers are much better than male officers at calming a situation.

In my own opinion, the way a person deals with a confrontation is completely individual and goes back to personality, training, agency policy, agency hostility to action, how much sleep they have had, whether they are pulling their third double shift in a week and a numerous other factors. By far, the most important factor may be field experince. Remember, a gunfight is just one manifestation of a confrontation.

Quick FEMALE ancedote. I recently had to serve an NTA (federal summons) on a belligerent female who was 6 feet 2 and weighed well over 250 pounds. The female officer I was with tried to calm this person without success.
The subject bad mouthed and threatened me which I ignored. However, if she had become physical, I would not even have tried to subdue her by hand. I would gone straight for my baton. So much for woman being the weaker sex!

Jim

[sm]

I will stick my two cents in on the female shooter debate. Most of the female officers I have worked with, did not shoot as well as I do. A few shot much better with 90% or better on their qualifications. Very few female officers I have known have been gun people, like us.

I respectfully beg to differ.

Understand I was born in the mid 50s, and was raised as I was and mentored as I was.

Everyone carried a handgun, as you said, one cannot go around with a long gun slung.

Handguns back then tended to fit more hands better, both men with smaller hand and ladies with smaller hands.
Add-
We had Veterans , both ladies and gents, from previous wars and we had Polio victims, so hands were not the the only part of gun fit to user, also amputees, hand , wrist, arm strength and other factors.

So the offering in revolvers and semi's with the Rule of 96 that is from shotgunning, applies to handguns, if one thinks about gun weight, to recoil curve of bullet weight of calibers being fired.

Shot placement was a big deal back in the day, being able to get the first shot off and place it, was important.

Now the ladies and gents, even kids, chose gun fit, and recoil curve to them.

Police were pretty much using S&W and Colt Revolvers, and these guns fit hands well they did back then, and still do today.
Two other platforms over all these years in semis, are the 1911 and BHP.

These 4 guns, two revolvers, and two semis, will fit 90% of all hands and allow the user to place shots quickly and effectively, which is a huge component in my book ( how raised) in stopping a threat.

What has happened over the years, is folks are not being raised with firearms in the household, and therefore not as proficient with carrying and shooting- both men and women.

In the old days, everyone was raised with guns, knew how to shoot, and it did not matter if lady , gent, kid, elderly , healthy or physically limited.

Another huge factor is, while folks grew up with guns, they did not put all the focus on just "gun" to stay safe, other skill sets and mindsets were important too and folks were more "well rounded" in all this.

Not just civilians, Police, as the same Police that shot 50 yard quals, both ladies and gents, did not think "gun" or "round count" as the only tools to stay safe.

Today, many could care less about a gun, it is just something else to have to wag around doing a job.
The gun is not about the officer, instead what a dept can get for price and package on keeping the guns maintained.

Guns do not fit ladies or gents, and add not being raised around guns...something else to wag aroung, and "oh crap, I gotta shoot this damn thing to qual, then the armorer is the only one that can do a damn thing with it, and I have to be in court to give testimony and ..."

Shotguns are the same way...

Having assisted on private ranges - among other things my life, experiences and observations include...

The gals were fine and dandy with revolvers in .38spl and .357, be these S&W J and K frames or Colts, so were the guys.
The day one Dept went to Glocks, it was downright nasty out there with all the hate and fussing.
Ditto for the HKs, and that day, some folks lost any confidence they might of had, when the guns would not run, and this repeated itself with the gun shooting once, maybe twice and the chambers were funky and the cases were stuck.
Sigs...
"Just throw the first shot in the dirt and maybe the damn gun will hit something the second shot" - was said up and down the line.

Same gals that would shoot .357s with .357 loads, and shoot J frames that would scare many...
Some serious fussing going on and some gals did not have to change guns, they kept their revolvers, including the gals using .41 mag and .44 mag.

Yep.
Some gals toted .41 and .44 and could flat scare the daylights out of folks.
Guys used these too.
State and Sheriff officers used these guns...

Nobody likes the sharp recoil of the .40, not the officers or CCW students.
Oh some serious cussing when BHP came out in .40, that was wrong!

9mm and 45ACP, these were the prefererred guns by ladies and gents, in BHP and 1911 for the semi shooters.

The way we saw and see it boils down to 3 kinds of officers, it does not matter if lady or gent.

1. Seasoned shooters , that do not put all things into "gun or ammo" and believe all we need for handguns and calibers was mfg by 1955.

2. Folks that were not raised with guns, and just something else they have to wag and mess with and the damn things have to be qual'd with.

3. Kewl folks, that are into image and status and the gun is not a tool to stay safe, as they cannot shoot, won't put time into to shoot, but the latest greatest gun and equipment is a ego thing.

[Phil DeGraves]

"I am saying the .45ACP does not work as well as 9m.m. +P or .40 S&W caliber 155 grain JHP or .357 magnum 125 grain JHP. Do you have evidence to the contrary?"

A .45 FMJ in the heart will work better than a 9m.m. +P or .40 S&W caliber 155 grain JHP or .357 magnum 125 grain JHP in the shoulder.

How much more evidence do I need? And of course, a good hit with any of those rounds you listed will work just as well. After all, he won't be any more dead taking a fatal shot with a 9mm+P than he would taking a .45 FMJ.

[Phil DeGraves]

"I want the best stopping power in the particular gun that I am carrying.."
Then practice with the particular platform that you prefer.
"I feel the 9m.m. +P+ offers the most power within my control limit."
The 9mm is a very adequate choice for defensive uses and has some distinct tactical advantages. I am not criticizing your choice of caliber or bullet type. They will all work if the shooter does his part. But the cartridge with the best "stopping power" isn't some magic talisman against bad guys. You need to do your part. A good shooter with FMJ is going to stop his assailant faster than a poor shooter with the latest "death dealer hyper velocity super hollowpoints." For a defensive load, I like any hollowpoint bullet that has a flat end, as even if the hollowpoint fills up and does not expand, the blunt edge creates more tissue damage and wound channel. Certain platforms will not feed certain bullet types. The defense is in the use of the tool, not what the tool has in it.

[Headless]

I've been reading some books about special ops in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, and one thing that struck me as totally crazy is how many American GI's took AK-47 rounds to the head and lived through it - in fact, some were still fighting after an ak round 'blew a 4 inch hole out of the back of his head, allowing us to see the grey matter of his brain'. Pistols have nothing on a good rifle round; they're all anemic, and people survive all kinds of wounds. Point being, stopping power is hit/miss, even with a rifle round.

[mavracer]

The 9mm is a very adequate choice for defensive uses and has some distinct tactical advantages. I am not criticizing your choice of caliber or bullet type. They will all work if the shooter does his part. But the cartridge with the best "stopping power" isn't some magic talisman against bad guys. You need to do your part. A good shooter with FMJ is going to stop his assailant faster than a poor shooter with the latest "death dealer hyper velocity super hollowpoints." For a defensive load, I like any hollowpoint bullet that has a flat end, as even if the hollowpoint fills up and does not expand, the blunt edge creates more tissue damage and wound channel. Certain platforms will not feed certain bullet types. The defense is in the use of the tool, not what the tool has in it.
that deserves to be read again

[DougDubya]

mavracer - it's been said in at least three or four threads.

It's the carpenter, not the nails, to use another term.

If handed a 1911 off the bat with 230-grain FMJ, my one request would be to install an ambidextrous safety. If not, a 1911 is so easy to shoot, I can get nearly as good groups with my right paw as my smart one.

Most every 9mm or .40 on the market is sufficiently ambidextrous that no such mods would be needed.

[mavracer]

Doug,

I know just liked the way Phil worded it.
I feal your southpaw pain,broke my right arm three times in grade school,it's a right handed world.
you can also hand me about anything and I can shoot it well.It'll take me a sec to find the sight picture on a glock, dang grip angle. and big double stacks give my short fat fingers fits especially ones with long DA reachs.but gimme a beretta 92 or a glock 21 and it'll be on IF necessary.
It ain't always the dog in the fight but the fight in the dog that matters most.

[sm]

Phil DeGraves,

Great Posts, thank you.

My contention is folks should spend more time with Software not Hardware.

I was mentored that shooting is 90% Mental and 10% Physical.
Physical being the gun, and loads, and other equipment.
Once one finds what fits them, the loads that feed, extract, repeat with mags (semi) and shoots projectiles point of aim/point of impact (POA/POI), all this Physical - stick with it, don't change it, just be one with it, and don't worry about it.


That 90% Mental is that important, and never ever steal from the Mental for the Physical part.

That is why that old man will beat one like a drum with a older firearm that is well worn, against a younger fella with a new gun.
That handgun, rifle,or shotgun, fits them, and they know it like a body part and they have the Mental aspect

That is why a criminal will kill someone with a .79 screwdriver from a pawn shop.
Mental game is such, they know how to read people, places and things and will be upon someone so fast, and kill them with that .79 screwdriver before the victim ever knew they were near, and they were targeted.

Even if the victim has a $300 tactical knife clipped to pocket, a $3000 dollar custom gun , with hi capacity mag and spare mags of the most devastating handgun ammunition.

This will happen to a shooter, CCW-er, a shooting instructor, or someone with hours of training.
It has...

90% mental, 10% physical.

Beware the person that shoots one gun - they know it!

Just like the criminal knows that screwdriver, tire tool, baseball ball, piece of rebar, broomstick, ...

[DougDubya]

Mav - no flies on Phil. Wonderful restatement.

Sm - absolutely true. The real stopper is the one who wants to end the fight the most, using whatever means is at hand.

[SAWBONES]

There is no measurable quantity pertinent to handheld guns called "stopping power".

[oneiron]

Stopping power is a myth where a pistol is used. No semiautomatic can be loaded to the pressures of a revolver. However, I have seen men killed with both.
In the 1961-63 I was a LEO. we were not allowed to load our revolvers with any thing by RN 38's or WC. No Hp's, but we could load armor piercing to bust the block of a car. I always felt under armed with a 38. Today I carry a 44 Spl. that weighs 20 onces. A few post ago the posted showed a picture of his 44 Spl ad said he used 5.6grs Unique and a 220gr bullet. Seem like a light load for the 44Spl.My prictice loan is 5gr greendot and 240gr SWC. I load for SD with a CorBon load that is on the ligh side for 44 Spl. a 65gr bullet pushed to 1050 at the muzzle which in my gun would be about 890fpm. On the Hatcher scale it would be a 55 in stopping power. I would use hand loads, but I purchased a 1000 Winchester LP primers locally and they are to unreliable for SD. As soon as I can get me some CCI primers I will load up a good load a soft lead 250gr SWC pushed by11.5gr Accur#9 with a rating of 65 on the Hatcher scale. They do make a 454 in a light pistol that you could load up some mean 45LC rounds for if you can find some good brass. The point is that the bigger the gun the more dangerous. A good big man always beats a good little man. I think my next gun will be a 454.

[golden]

SM,

I believe we will have to agree to disagree.

I grew up in the 60's in New York City before my family moved to the south. Men rarely owned guns and if they did, they were either .22's or deer rifles. Very few people besides cops and crooks carried guns. You had to have the money of Donald TRUMP or the influence of William F. BUCKLEY to get a concealed carry permit.

Cops in New York WERE TAUGHT TO SHOOT IF THEY SAW SOMEONE HOLDING ANYTHING BUT A BLUE STEEL COLT OR S&W. They were sure no one else but a cop would have a gun unless they were a bad guy.

Cops shot at the 50 yard line using .38 wadcutters and cocking the hammer to shoot single action. That was when much of the push for close range, moving target and action shooting really began to develop.

In the much more gun oriented south, I saw veteran cops who could not get off their six shots in 6 seconds, sometimes not even 5 shots. I also saw cops play with their guns after drinking and sometimes just when they were bored. Many officers did not carry extra ammo for a reload.


SM, I must have different hands than you. I just bought an excellent condition 2nd generation COLT Cobra with original stocks. It was absolutely awful to shoot with +P. I have gotten new stock since then, so I will actually be able to shoot it.

When I started in law enforcement, we were issued S&W model 13 revolvers with round butt, wooden grips and 3 inch barrel's. They handled well, but 12 out of the 47 issued to my class had problems ranging from torqued screws (mine) to being completely froze up.
I shot this gun just fine with wadcutters. The guy in the next lane MISSED THE TARGET WITH 6 SHOTS FROM 7 YARDS. He was from the 50's as well, but was terrified of guns.
When we started using magnums, it was work and I hated it. I bought a pair of rubber grips before I even graduated. The instructors were all telling us that we could purchase them and should. The service I worked for would not even issue us speed loaders, I had to buy my own. Few other officers carried them. We were supposed to load from our 3x2 pouch.
Almost every centerfire revolver that I have since then has gotten rubber grips because they DO FIT MY HAND.

Dispite not being a veteran, I had no problems outshooting the older guys who had not fired a handgun since Korea or Vietnam. This is not a put down of veterans, just an observation that military sevice two decades earlier did not make someone a good shot.

People who hunted and were familiar with firearms did much better, but not always.

The best improvement in the average shooting ability occured when my agency replaced everything with the BERETTA 96D. Everyone was measured to see if the gun would fit. Everyone got 6 mags for the gun.
We went to a new 72 round qualification regime and all officers who did not qualify lost their gun and went on restricted duty.
You either went to remedial or passed the next time at range. We then drew from the holster EVERY time. We did emergency and tactical reloads. Things really did improve, except that the 96D was so big and heavy to carry off duty.


I would like to point to the Jim ZUMBO controversey. For those that missed it, ZUMBO was the well known hunting editor of OUTDOOR LIFE magazine. In 2007, he made a EXTREMELY ANTI ASSAULT RIFLE statement on his website. He called for banning AR-15 from hunting fields. It literally stopped his carreer in its tracks.
The point being, ZUMBO is not anti gun, but like many hunters, he did not equate shooting with AR-15's, self defense or competition as the gun enthusiasts in this collumn do.
I have met and spoken with many hunters who do not even own a handgun. Some of them share even more anti-gun views than ZUMBO spoke.

I think that gun owner and users now are much more defense and handgun oriented than they have been in a century. Now we debate which caliber and what type of shooting is best. We try different holsters and different guns to try to improve our ability. We obtain permits and carry concealed. Did the old time shooters ever try a night fire exercise?

I personally choose the 9m.m. and .40 S&W over the.357 magnum, .45ACP and .45Long Colt that I also own because I think they are better suited to my needs. I also push the 9m.m. and .40 S&W because my obervation indicates that they will do the job as well as the .45ACP without the costs of a heavier gun and greater recoil to me and most of the people I work with. I have seen what happens when the wrong gun for non shooters is pushed by people who prefer something bigger or more powerful (anyone remember the failure of the .41 magnum in being adopted by the police).

Jim

[DougDubya]

Golden - I think you and SM both agree.

At least he's saying it's training first, then better technology.

As you mentioned, there were cops with guns who feared and hated their firearms.

Oh, nevermind. Different reply than the immediately previous post by SM.

[johnle]

Frankly, anything to scare/harm/stop a bad guy is good. I really don't care what I use as long as he stops or gets the hell away from my family/house.

[Timthinker]

I believe the only "guarantee" of stopping power is the CNS (Central Nervous System) shot. To substantiate this point, I will retell the story of President Lincoln's death and that of his assassin. Lincoln took a bullet to the brain and was immediate incapacitated. He died hours later. His assassin, John Wilkes Booth, was eventually found and received a bullet wound to the neck which damaged his spinal cord. Booth was instantly paralyzed and died hours later also.

The point of this historical narrative is to demonstrate that only damage to the CNS will produce instant "stopping power". Failing such an injury, an armed assailant may have the stamina and determination to continue fighting, even if that is for a short period of time. The infamous 1986 FBI shootout in Miami, Florida supports this view. Remember, other wounds may or may not produce the desired stopping power sought. I believe this is a postion to which everyone can subscribe.


Timthinker

[moooose102]

i confess, i have read and used (i don't remember if it was this exact article or not) an article like this for choosing my ccw. these articles are great reference, the author(s) have gone to great lengths to give us evcellent information. they can help you to decide which caliber is what you desire for "stopping power". they are not intended as "words from god". and the hardest hitting round may not be a match for you. there are many considerations one has to contemplate in order to find the best fit for him or her. power, noise, recoil size weight, cartride capacity, sights, trigger pull, d.a/s.a, concealed or not, are most of the things we need to consider. i am a pretty good sized person, and dont mind some recoil, however, i also must confess that std. 45acp ammo is all i want. i shot some +p ammo a couple of weeks ago, and it's a little more than i want to handle. at least in a self defense situation. every situation is going to be different. just like every one of us is different. a well placed .22 lr entering at the top of the nose may stop a person with one shot instantly, but when somebody is charging you at 10 feet with a butcher knife, who amongst us has enough composure to actually be ABLE to make a shot like that? and not everybody would fall to the ground from a single shot to the chest cavity with a 500 smith and wesson magnum (even though it should pick them up and set them down a block away). being a border patrol officer, or any l.e.o., for that matter must, at times, be sheer h.e. double hockey stix. i can only imagine what it must be like in an actual gunfight. where the bad and good guys are actually fighting for their life's! i hope i never have to go through it. but i do ccw, and if forced into a battle for my life, i will not just sit there and be shot to death. i carry a 45, but that doesn't mean i will shoot and holster. i will as many as it takes for me to be able to walk away, hopefully unharmed. if that means 10 rounds, so be it. i think we all would like to think that there is a perfect one shot, one kill pistol. but in the real world, there are no guarantees. so buy what you can shoot, shoot often enough to place your shots well, and if the shooting ever starts, PRAY HARD AND SHOOT WELL! i believe that hollow points are one of the things that will help stack the odds in your favor. a round that expands will deliver its energy much better in soft flesh than ball ammo. i have heard people talk about only shooting ball ammo, how with a 45, hollow points are unnessesary. personally, i dont care if your shooting a 22 or .50 ae, a bigger hole is going to help. not only are you more likely to damage something vital or catch an artery, the shock wave is much more intense. and i personally believe that the shock wave has more to stopping a person with one shot that the actual diameter of the hole. on second thought, i can think of a one shot, one kill weapon. although it would be quite hard to carry it on your hip. a 5" cannon filled with 50 or so 1/2" ball bearings would be a guaranteed one shot one kill gun. at least if you hit the person. although, the noise might scare him to death!

[TG13]

blah, blah, blah... this is a tired argument that really will not have an answer..

just use what you want to use.. because, that's what is going to end up happening anyway..


and for the majority of us, we have a very high chance of never finding out if we actually have "stopping power" or not.. and that's a good thing to think about.. not having to be in a situation to be pushed into using it..

[Brian Williams]

Points are made for both sides,
Train your brain,
Then use your brain,

I am sticking a fork in it.