[45R]

I was talking to some folks over at outdoor range yesturday. One of the guys was telling me about an incident that happened not too long ago were a Molsin Nagont (SP) exploded.

The shooter was carrying on his normal business in a safe manner. Fired a shot and pulled the bolt back to eject the empty casing. As he pushed the bolt forward to the chamber another round the bullet exploded.

The shooter had to be transported by ambulance to the local hospital. Inspection of the round showed AN INTACT PRIMER (no primer strike)but the ammo was old surplus from Korea. The casing had a hole in its side and the gun was pretty much rendered useless.

No one can explain how this Kb happened. One of the guys I was talking to thinks that it could have been "bobby trapped" ammo from the days of the war. (IE leaving ammo behind that will explode if the enemy uses it.)
What are the chances of a round like that making its way to a civilian shooter by commerical means. (BTW no one knows were he got the ammo)


Thought and experience from the THR collective..

[P95Carry]

Never heard of a booby trap KB before but I guess anything is possible. Certainly odd that primer intact so ..... must have been tampered with.

My 7.62x54R all came in string tied boxes ... sorta ''ex factory'' so would imagine little likelehood of any oddities.

8mm also .. for Mauser ... in bulk in bandolier packs.

Would sure like to know what his ammo source was!!!

[geojap]

I've never heard of any 7.62x54R Korean ammo in the US. I would assume it's North Korean, because the only surplus South Korean ammo that I know of is for American battle rifles and pistols (30-06 and .45 ACP). We don't have any relations with North Korea, so I dont know how some North Korean ammo would have made its way to us.

Without knowing the real source of the ammo, I can't really comment on it. I would only use surplus ammo that is considered reputable, and there are lots of it out there. It may have just become unstable, whatever.

[Dionysusigma]

A while back, I purchased a 440rd tin of Albanian 7.62 x 54R. Shot every single round in there through my M44, but with only one little problem...around shot #300 (it was a very long day ;)) I chambered the round, took aim, pulled the trigger...and got a hot blast of powder back in the face :eek:. After inspecting the brass, it looked as though a crack had worn its way into the casing near the primer. Looked natural, not booby-trapped...no other problems though.

[jsalcedo]

My dad told me that during the Vietnam war the NVA or Vietcong would leave a box of ammo in a otherwise empty bunker. Some of this ammo was filled with plastic explosives and meant to blow off hands and faces.

After a while the policy was to destroy all found ammo.

I'm sure its possible that this has happened in other places.

[Jim Watson]

Bear in mind that Korean surplus 7.62x54R would be NORTH Korea, and of Korean, Chinese, or Soviet manufacture of over 50 years ago, and stored God knows how and where. It was probably a defective round. Booby trapped ammo would be a danger to your own people if you recovered it; after all, it would fit YOUR gun, not the enemy's. Chance of nailing a souvenir hunter doesn't seem worth it.

Re Viet Nam. The C4 in an AK round trick reportedly done by both sides won't work. A cartridge primer won't set off commercial and military explosives, it takes a blasting cap or ordnance equivalent. A reasonable alternative story was to fill rifle rounds with pistol powder. THAT would get their attention. Again, it would work better for US to sabotage 7.62 and them to rig 5.56. That way you have a better chance of maiming somebody in combat with his own weapon than a pickup.

[benEzra]

Do keep in mind, too, that there were a variety of explosive and incendiary rounds loaded for the 7.62x54 over the last century, and a few of these occasionally make it over here. Doug Bowser in his book about Finn M39's talks about some milsurp rounds he was shooting that were blowing huge holes in the berm behind his target. Turns out they were explosive/incendiary rounds.

It's possible your friend had something like this that detonated in his gun. It's also (remotely) possible that the round was way over pressure and flattened the primer dent back out when it went off?:confused:

[Jim K]

I have always been skeptical of "booby trap" ammo stories, for the obvious reason that Jim Watson indicates. It has been recorded as far back as WWI, with no evidence and no substantiation. I consider it in the "urban myth" category. It is always "Someone told someone who said that someone he knows said ....", with no names, no dates, no detailed gun information, and of course no investigation by a competent expert.

When an M1A let go due to a bad replacement barrel of unknown origin, the rumor spread that the cause was German 7.62 NATO ammo boobytrapped by Nazis to kill Americans and revenge Hitler. (They didn't do a good job; there was only the one case.)

I suppose now we will be told that the 7.62x54R was boobytrapped by Russians, Chinese, Poles, Germans, Ukranians, North Koreans pretending to be South Koreans, South Koreans pretending to be Austrians, Germans disguised as French, etc.

Oh, and we will hear from a dozen "Vietnam Vets" who will swear on a stack of wrecked AK-47's that they personally boobytrapped a hundred or a thousand or a million rounds of 7.62x39 to blow up the Viet Cong, NVA, Poles, Chinese, etc., etc.

The only new wrinkle is that this latest boobytrap ammo apparently does not need to be fired. It just knows when a Yankee capitalist pig is holding the rifle and blows up all by itself.

Pfooey, to sort of quote Nero Wolfe.

Jim

[Timber-Hunter]

Skeptic's from personal with non special-op's background are very common.
The stuff taught at JFK-SWC is not the thing's that transfer well to the job market.

[Al Thompson]

John Plaster in his book "SOG" or "MAC SOG" mentions the Pol Pot ammo. According to him, the small arms ammo was made with a compressed load of Bullseye and the mortar shells/grenades expolded upon ignition.

I really, really would be surprised that any 7.62x54R ammo would either be modified or available. Strongly suspect the rifle had a mechanical failure or was racked twice.

[Gordon]

Well suffice to say I'd never shoot 'Mekong match " ammo (green laquered case steel stuff.) Sanitary domestic 7.62X39 ammo was produced by Lake City for use in AK's when we used them .Our policies were 'blacker" before the Watergate scandal had the CIA running and ducking and trotting out their dirty laundry for the socialists to cluck over. Don't know about 7.62X54. A booby trapped round goes off a lot bigger than a ruptured case (or a case full of bullseye either!) . I don't think the Cong ever left any 'ball beans' we never used their stuff or wouldn't use any non issued stuff anyway. I however, in my role of sorting thru MANY inventories of bunkers, have been KNOWN to shoot off lots of B-2 rockets and funny bamboo wrap satchel charges with pull igniters for fun. Ah the looney fun days of playing no win war!:D

[benEzra]

_Soldier of Fortune_ a couple of years ago had an article on the French ops in Algeria. One of the anecdotes involved a terrorist arms procurement that got compromised; the French let the deal go through, but fitted the grenades with zero-delay fuses, and the rifle ammo with plastic explosives instead of powder (IIRC). At least two terrorists tried to throw grenades into Algerian markets (and got blown up) before the group figured it out.

[Jim Watson]

SOF some years ago also had a piece about the Soviets supplying grenades to Communist insurgents in Latin America. There was concern that the Capitalist insurgents might get hold of them so they put a couple of zero delay fuzes in each box. Markings had a secret code so the Commies could tell the bad ones and use them only for booby traps and bait.

[dfariswheel]

There actually was a US special forces project to booby trap VC/NVA ammo caches.

The early system (done in-country) was to pull bullets and replace the powder with a full load of Bullseye. Later, special ammo was reworked, (apparently at Army SF bases on Okinawa) and packed with some kind of high explosive.

This was done under the code names "Italian Red", "Bolo Beans", and possibly "Italian Green".

The ammo later included "fixed" grenades and mortar shells. The munitions were supplied to Ranger, SF, Force Recon, and SEAL units, who would insert them into small caches of enemy supplies.

This was so wide spread, that the Army had new 7.62X39 ammo manufactured for special units to use in captured AK-47's, and all troops in Vietnam were warned not to shoot captured ammo.

A large project similar to this was used by the British SAS in Malaya during the Red Chinese sponsored "Emergency".
Near the end of the insurrection, the Chinese were in so desperate need of ammo, the SAS were replacing MOST of the captured munitions with booby trapped ammo and grenades.

Sources for this info come from a number of books written by and about British SAS operations, and a fair number of books written by various US special ops people who served in Vietnam.

Apparently the most prolific cache "salters" were the Army LURP and Ranger units.

The info on the code names for the SF project, the manufacture of booby trapped ammo on Okinawa, and the manufacture of 7.62X39 ammo for US uses came, I think, from the history of SOG, published a few years ago, as well as several books written by former Rangers and SEALs.

There was also suspicion that Bullseye booby trapped ammo was being left on public shooting ranges in California about 10 years or so ago.

[KC]

"The C4 in an AK round trick reportedly done by both sides won't work. A cartridge primer won't set off commercial and military explosives, it takes a blasting cap or ordnance equivalent."

No, it won't explode, but it will burn hot.

"I purchased a 440rd tin of Albanian 7.62 x 54R..."
Brass case, I assume?
I have bought this stuff once. After two stovepipes, some misfires, and a burn-thru, I relagated it to the M44. After a couple more stovepipes (in a friggen bolt gun) and lots&lots&lots of charcoal, I gave up on it and demilled the remaining ~350 rounds. (When you start pouring grainy black crap out of a modern rifle the way one can with a BP rifle, you know there are problems.) A lot of the bullets disentegrated (!) and the brass was crap and unuseable. The powder did get the campfire going, though...

[Andrew Wyatt]

When an M1A let go due to a bad replacement barrel of unknown origin, the rumor spread that the cause was German 7.62 NATO ammo boobytrapped by Nazis to kill Americans and revenge Hitler.


Was this the one posted on the gun zone?

[Sir Galahad]

The Soviets made a 7.62x54 "observation-incendiary" or "Ranging Incendiary" round called the PZ. It is marked with a red tip. It was intended for use in machine guns against aircraft. It has an explosive charge in the nose of the jacket along with a primer and cup with firing pin. This round is UNSAFE to fire.

There was also a very HOT load made for the ShKAS aircraft machine gun and this was a armor piercing tracer designated by a purple tip. There was also a variant that was a armor piercing tracer incendiary. It has a purple and red tip. Both are UNSAFE to fire.

Any of the above loads will damage a rifle.

The Albanian ammo is hit-or-miss. You either like it, or you get the stuff that makes you hate it. It is mostly gone now, and much better stuff can be had. Hungarian, for example, in sealed spam cans. Wolf and Barnaul can be had cheaply. There, still, is quite a bit of quality surplus out there. Mostly Hungarian and Czech. "Boobytrapped" ammo has been used, but there is not a chance it's coming out of sealed spam cans. It's doubtful 7.62x54 was ever boobytrapped, as the 7.62x39 was the candidate of choice for that endeavor. For what it's worth, I am sure everyone can recall warnings in different gun magazines from top U.S. ammo manufacturers recalling certain lots of ammo due to dangerous overloads that could blow up a firearm. I think the last involved Winchester shotgun shells.

[Timber-Hunter]

A primer will not set off a case of C-4,it will just burn hot?!?:o

Two things you need to set off C-4,Heat and Pressure.
Best not offer advice on things that you have no experience at all.

A case of any explosive in a case that is attached to a primer will detonate!
Be it a a case of IMR4895 or a case of tetrol, it will blow.
The only difference is the "burn-rate".
You can take C-4 and set it ablaze and it will burn real hot!
Take that burning piece and throw it and it will Blow!

[50 Freak]

I heard that the US would booby trap bullets by pulling the heads and stuffing the casing with det cord. I never wanted to try it so I couldn't tell you it was true or not.

45R, I'm thinking maybe the round was double charged and hence that may have caused the kaboom. I've never heard of booby-trapped bullets from the Russian front.

[C.R.Sam]

I have problems with the original story....start of thread.
second, or third, hand relation of the incident.
Round went off out of battery, yet the primer was unfired, intact.
Should , most likely, have blown the primer out of the case.

The conflicting information makes it hard to reconstruct the incident.
Not enough to go on.

Sam

[Keith]

Yeah, this sounds like the start of an urban legend.

NO ammo is being imported from North Korea. In fact, NOTHING is being imported from North Korea and that has been true for many years.

I just did a quick google search to look for North Korean ammo and found this: http://library.lp.findlaw.com/articles/file/00015/004535/title/subject/topic/international%20trade%20law_customs/filename/internationaltradelaw_1_252


The regulations administered by the Office of Foreign Assets Control (FAC) generally prohibit the unlicensed importation of merchandise--except information and informational materials--of Cuban, Iranian, Iraqi, Libyan, or North Korean origin. Goods may not be imported from or through commercial entities owned or controlled by the governments of Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, or North Korea, or owned or controlled by any commercial entity in those areas, regardless of the location of the entity. Vessels or aircraft under the registry, ownership, or control of the governments of, or commercial entities in, the above areas may not import merchandise into the United States.

Keith

[45R]

Well thanks for all the information.

I got to learn alot of bobby trapped ammo and a little something something about C4. :)

[dshimm]

A friend of mine who served as a Ranger in VN said that often when they came across a VC ammo cache, they would pull the bullets from several cartridges, dump the powder, and put in some plastic explosive. I imagine that if one of those rounds found its way into your gun, that would really ruin your day at the range.

Guess that's why I don't ever shoot anybody else's handloads.

[RustyHammer]

Lite on fact, heavy on "tin foil" ... need more info .. .. :(

[Bobothebigdog]

bump

[MagKnightX]

Those who said that a primer would not detonate plastique are probably right. However, it is easy enough to have a striker-fired blasting cap of the same diameter as a normal primer inserted into the cartridge. You just need to modify the case a little. That would REALLY ruin someone's day.

[TheSniper999]

Hi, guys and girls,

I am looking to buy a really clean original Romanian PSL with matched numbers and a load of decent 7.62 x 54R ammo cheap. Who knows of what?

Dennis

[TheSniper999]

:neener: Just being logical now, I say, any soldier who would bother with booby trapping a few cartridges to get mild, if any injury, would be better off to put a real mine under an ammo can and kill the person who moves it. Don't you think? Booby trapped cartridges seem like an unreliable method at best:neener: .

[Lonestar.45]

I believe that it's possible. Not likely, but possible. The booby trapped ammo stories can definitely be true. The reason I say this is dad did one and a half tours in the 3rd Battalion 5th Marines in Vietnam from 66-67 when he was finally wounded. On patrols, there was one guy in his platoon who carried pliers, and after a successful ambush many times they'd take a round out of an AK mag, pull the bullet, put in a small amount of C-4, put the bullet back in, put the bullet about round 2-3 back in the mag, and leave it lying there with a weapon. Maybe it wasn't a reliable method of booby trapping, maybe it was, he never saw the results personally and did not know.

That's why I was really surprised to read that currently in Iraq, the Iraqi police will often times used captured AK ammo for their weapons and training (along with some US trainers). I would not want to be doing that personally.

[Car Knocker]

TheSniper999,

I think you will get a lot more response for your "Want to buy" ad if you put down in the Trading Post section instead of the middle of a 3-year-old thread on booby-trapped ammo.

[boilingleadbath]

C-4? I'm pretty sure it won't work all alone, but puting some primary in the case closer to the primer would probably work.
However, detcord is typicaly made of petn - which (IIRC) is a primary, and will detonate from flame.

[B4Ctom1]

http://www.conjay.com/Ammunition%20for%20Armor%20Testing%20East%207.62mm%20x%2054R.htm

shows a PZ round, so I went to do more research on this PZ round and found this post.

Before I got here I found this:

http://p102.ezboard.com/762x54r-gunshow-find/fparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforumsfrm61.showMessage?topicID=3306.topic

a primer, a firingpin, and PETN inside the bullet? aged to perfection? sounds like a Kb in the making.

[Jeremy2171]

The PZ round is safe for rifles, no such animal as an MG only round.

As for booby trapped ammo, dunno about VN or other wars but it's here in Iraq. I won't go into details but it's NOT C4.

[B4Ctom1]

I agree that there is no such thing as a MG round.

I think that due to the instability and the power of having PETN blow your rifle up and the story told in the OP that PZ ammo could be of concern. Hell pulling projectiles or reloading it could be of concern.

[MrDig]

45R "One of the guys was telling me about an incident that happened not too long ago were a Molsin Nagont (SP) exploded."

A freind of your Cousins Brothers ex-wife?
This is purely anecdotal and lacking even an ID of the injured party it smacks of the myth that Surplus Ammo and Guns aren't safe to fire.
All Myth/Legend tells a tale with a moral or a lesson telling a society how to behave. Modern Society has generated these stories to maintain a sense of order and moral compass in an increasingly permissive world. The preversion of these is the use of them to support a mistaken and or incorrect point of view.
The moral of the Urban Legend you are telling is that you just can't trust those Surplus Arms or Ammo, as I stated earlier.

[gezzer]

The reason to booby trap the cartridges are psychological. It will deny the use of whole ammo catch after the first cartridge blows.

[Don't Tread On Me]

I've heard the ammo sabotage stories. The version I heard was US special forces would place kaboom loads in enemy (Vietnam) ammo caches when they would come across vacant tunnels.


Who knows. I think the fact that the idea exists, must dictate that it has happened or it's been done. I don't think on a widespread scale or even in an organized way. But I'm sure someone did it.


I think this is just a bad kaboom that's a result of either a bad round or a bad rifle - or maybe a combination of both, and that people are looking for bigger and grander things to blame than the obvious.

[270Win]

Almost certainly a Tall Tale.

[Mannix]

Why would anyone resurrect a 4 year old thread?

[4fingermick]

Any milsup ammo is a bit of a crap shoot, especially when it is 50 years old and stored amy old how.

I don't touch the stuff. When I buy a milsup, I buy 200 cases, dies and reload. There is nothing more satisfying than getting an old war horse to shoot lead boolits :D