[Rembrandt]

(WHO-Radio 1040am, Des Moines) Interesting talk radio show this morning....a property owner/deer & shed hunter is having a hard time finding any sheds on his property. With the aid of trail cameras he photographs a shed hunter trespassing on his land and finds out what's happening to the sheds. He then sends the picture via email in hopes of finding the poachers identity. Someone identifies the poacher and the game officials are notified. The kid gets a $100 fine and admits to trespassing.

Thru the miracle of the internet, the picture gets photo shopped and modified into a wanted poster, putting a bounty on him dead or alive. The father of the poacher calls the radio show upset and complaining how wrong it is to make death threats to his son.

Then the property owner calls in telling his side of the story, he left over $4000 worth of corn in the field as a food plot. He has invested thousands to manage a quality deer herd and have sheds for his own enjoyment. Some poacher comes by cleans up the antlers and essentially gets them for a $100 fine.

Here are some links to the rest of the story. The Pod cast is also available for those wanting to listen to the exchange between the father and property owner.




Listen to the Pod Cast......
http://www.mickelson.libsyn.com/

Original trail photo of trespasser......
http://www.iowadeer.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1205374943

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/535/medium/shedpoacher1.jpg

[PotatoJudge]

From the dad of the poacher calling in: "It has got to the point where we can't hardly get off our own property without upsetting some out of state land owner."
Yeah, trespassing tends to irk people. Anyway, it hardly matters if the landowners are local or out of state landowners. On my land, I'd be real unhappy about running into strangers and they'd likely have to explain their position at gunpoint if they were dressed up in camo or looked shifty in any respect.

The dad says "he's a kid" about his 22 year old son. There really is no excuse at that age.

To paraphrase: he can get $7 a pound for the sheds, unless you get a rare one then you have to get a set, been offered $100-150 for a set

To his son when he got caught "you knew you was doin' wrong."

A reasonable person wouldn't take that poster as a death threat, but that guy's dad doesn't seem real in touch with reality.

[conwict]

picture gets photo shopped

That's a very generous way of describing it!

I don't get it, clearly the only people who had the pics are the property owner and the rangers, and it was likely the owner who put the pic online as a "poster"...

I didn't listen to the stories, but this is a death threat. Even if it wasn't distributed but the son/father poacher got hold of it, it's a death threat. So...while kind of funny, both parties are in the wrong, and the property owner more so if he was the one who posted the pic (which is what seems like the only possibility).

[conwict]

A reasonable person wouldn't take that poster as a death threat

It depends on the context. I see it as a stupid joke, but people get very upset over this kind of dispute. I wouldn't be happy with it if I were the father. Now, you mention that the father makes a bunch of stupid statements on the radio podcast, which I didn't listen to, but still; all things being equal, it is a mistake to distribute a "poster" like this.

[TCB in TN]

From the dad of the poacher calling in: "It has got to the point where we can't hardly get off our own property without upsetting some out of state land owner."

Simple solution, stay on YOUR land!

[marksman13]

I hardly see that poster as a death threat. Is our society really that far gone?

[PotatoJudge]

I agree, if it was a family member in that poster it'd upset me and the "dead or alive" part of the poster is a bad idea. I understand how one would call that a death threat, but it's obviously not meant to be taken seriously in that regard.

[Cosmoline]

Up here feeding wildlife to gather some crop of shed antlers would be worthy of jail time. DO NOT FEED WILD ANIMALS!

[Stinger]

I'm not sure it qualifies as a death threat with the lack of any threat. Besides, you don't know who did it. If the landowner did it then he could have a serious issue. More than likely, it made its way to a third/unrelated party and they were pulling a 'funny.'

[Rembrandt]

UPDATE......From the landowner..

"Thought you would like to know that Levi Ward plead guilty to trespassing
and paid a $100. fine plus $87. court cost....On the other hand I paid $3,000.
to plant and electrify my corn. I left 1,000 bushels standing in the field
($4,000+value) to feed local deer and collect sheds from the numerous bucks
that were frequenting the corn each evening. Levi claimed he never found a shed
on my farm yet was photographed walking out of my farm with a backpack and
hand full of sheds.(Last year I picked up 22 sheds in 3 hours with NO standing
corn). After Levi trespassed on my farm we found only a few small sheds.None
of his sheds were confiscated. A few of the sheds he picked up could easily
cover his meager fine. Looks like crime DOES PAY ! Please feel free to share
this information with your Iowa Whitetail audience."

[john1911]

No threat and the kid is a thief.

[eliphalet]

IMHO death is not appropriate, but a busted leg or two would be justified. Not very PC huh? Oh well, and you can take it to the bank he would not return next year. With a $100 fine where is the deterrent? Sounds like he came out ahead to me, or lets learn crime does pay.

I guess I am just tired of lier's, cheaters and thieves treating them with kid gloves and having to feed em when they get caught. Cane their butt, break a leg or two and send em on their way.

Saw the other day 1 in 100 Americans are in jail.
Why should we house and feed most of em?
You wanna steal, rob or sell dope in my city, town or anyplace America?
Well, when we catch you we're gonna cane your butt, drive you over to the city limits and kick you in that sore butt right out of town, If you so much as step back in our town we will cane you again just for being here.
I will guarantee you crime rates will drop like rocks off a bridge.

[moosehunt]

I agree with Cosmoline--in most places, should be all, feeding wildlife is illegal.

The kid is a trespasser, yes, but that's not the same as nor similar to a poacher. We're talking sheds, not animals!!

[XDKingslayer]

Yep, he's not a poacher and unless the deer legally belong to you when on your property, he's not a thief either technically. He's a tresspasser, that's for sure.

But on the other hand, I agree with epiphalet. He needs a leg broke to get the point across.

[moooose102]

people pay a lot of money to buy private property. this land owner purposly created a haven for deer, for his personal enjoyment. this young punk basicly slapped the land owner in the face and said thanks for all the work old man, and took what he wanted. no asking, no sorry. what ever happened to respect? if you dont have the guts to look the owner in the eye, and ask for permission to go on their land, stay off it! i dont own much property at all, never have. always wanted to but i have never had the money. still, my dad taught me respect others and their property. (land or items). if this guy wandered in by accident one time, that would be a whole different story. everyone makes mistakes. but when you do something repeatedly, on purpose. you need to be taught a lesson. a $185.00 to the state is squat, and what is worse, the land owner gets nothing. absoloutly rediculous.

[AKCOP]

I wonder how Dad and his son would feel if we all showed up at his property and started wandering around looking for stuff. Doesn't matter if the sheds once belonged to the wild deer, they don't anymore and they are on private property on which these people have no right to trespass.
Can't agree with the dead or alive commnet but I certainly would have posted that photo everywhere with comment about him trespassing and being a criminal wanted by the police.

[Titan6]

I see your point in that he needs some kind of punishment that is meaningful.

Since this is America you can sue him, but you will likely lose as proving your loss will be difficult. Unless you can prove the value of your loss then you will likely not find a friendly judge in court.

Even if you do win you probably won't see any money and now be in the red even more for court costs and the only other punishment will be that you have now wrecked the kid's credit, which is probably already bad (most criminals have bad credit already).

So I guess what you could do is offer the kid the opportunity to work off some of his stolen loot in some other way. If he is from a good family he may want to make good on it. The advantage is that if he does make good on it you might be able to help turn a hooligan around by having him do the right thing instead of convincing him that there are no repercussions for bad conduct in life. If he doesn't well, then you were the better man and sometimes that is your only reward in life.

[Ash]

He is most certainly a thief. And, eh, if he were from a good family he would not have stolen them and, assuming he regretted the act, would have returned the stolen antlers upon being caught. As it is, he coughed up $100 and now complains about his mug being on the internet - albeit with an implied threat.

Ash

[wheelgunslinger]

I think it does bring up a neat question. If the deer are government property, what about the sheds? When they drop them on your property, are they then yours?

And yeah, that kid needs to respect other people's property rights. I hope someone trespasses his family's land and starts hunting there after this.

[TAB]

no one can prove he took the sheds from the guys land, the only thing you can prove is that he trespassed...

[RoostRider]

Even trespass may be going to far.... was the land properly posted? Just because he plead guilty doesn't mean he actually committed the crime... It could well have been the best way to avoid expense and problems for a 'mistake' he made.

Here in MN you aren't trespassing unless you knowingly ignore proper signage, or are told to leave and refuse. I don't know anyone who 'collects' sheds as a profitable venture. It is very possible this person (kid is a misnomer at 21) simply went out looking for sheds and found them, not understanding at all that his neighbor actually wanted these things, or intended to keep him off of the property.

It may be a little immoral to take something naturally occurring from your neighbors land without asking first, but this is no different than going on his land and taking dead fall.... unless the kid knew a lot of things that you all seem to assume he knew....

Sounds to me like this neighbor can now rest assured that this guy won't come back on his land after sheds. The guy should return the sheds he took (for moral if not legal reasons), problem solved.

[Art Eatman]

TAB, if you have a photo of a guy on your place with antlers in hand and the land has a history of having antlers lying around, that's pretty good factual evidence. Folks don't generally climb a fence into somebody else's place to import antlers to the area. I doubt this trespasser is salting a gold mine.

moosehunt, leaving corn in a field by not harvesting it is not "feeding animals" in any legal sense. Where is it written that one must harvest every last speck of one's crop?

And hollering for physical violence is Low Road, regardless of the provocation.

Art

[TAB]

if they could prove theft why was he only charged with trespassing?


Chances are pretty damn high that he took them off the land in question, but there is a chance he took them from some where else and was just taking a "short cut".

If you were being charged with a crime wouldn't you want the benfit of the doubt?

[Ash]

In Mississippi, you don't have to actually post your land. You don't even have to mark the boundaries. If you find a person on your property without permission, he is by law trespassing. How that applies in this situation, I cannot say.

And, this could easily, very easily, be verified by noting the boot-print patterns (though now it is too late).

In any case, the guy was found guilty of trespassing and punished. The problem here is that he was penalized disproportionately to the benefit. For a $100 fine, many folks would be willing to steal $4000 worth of merchandise. Consider it a finder's fee.

Ash

[qajaq59]

The young guy is a trespasser. And the poster is idiotic. Doesn't sound like anyone involved did much thinking before they acted.

[Justin]

The original image was taken down because it was kind of not High Road.

However, this one that I've created should pass muster without much issue.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=76327&d=1208045947

For those who are interested, Levi can be contacted at the following email address: Levi_Ward@cargill.com

[Ash]

Planting food plots is certainly not immoral nor illegal. It is indeed a part of good wildlife/game management. Supplemental to what is produced in the forest, of course, but not the same thing as throwing out bait.

Ash

[grimjaw]

Death threat posters are scary?

We used to burn public officials in effigy in this country.

Anyway, the "kid" got what he deserved with the fine.

jm

[Savage Shooter]

yeah the kid was tresspassing but get over it people there just antlers. the landowner sounds to be a freakin idiot for spending all that money just for sheds walk around and you find them i find plenty without any cash on other peoples land just ask and there usually more than happy to let you hunt sheds. can they even prove that he found them on that guys land just beause he was on the land with antlers doesn't mean that he found them there more then likely he did but you don't no that for sure I'd give him 1warning if i caught him there again without my permission then its time to call the cops.

[Ash]

If he had done work to harvest antlers to sell on market, it can be a very big deal. If you have fruit growing on trees or shrubs in your yard, would you care if I stripped your trees without permission? What's the big deal, they're just apples, right? Besides, you can't prove that my sack of apples came from your trees. Just get over it.

The question is, do you think this guy didn't do it?

Ash

[BullfrogKen]

They might be "just antlers", but so what?

The property owner apparently enjoys that pastime. He planted corn, and left it up rather than harvest and sell it so he could enjoy that activity. How can one assign a price to that sort of activity?

So what if he sounds like an idiot to you? Its his property, and he enjoys it. Lots of folks do things that seem strange. It's a lot easier and cheaper to go buy a case of beer than brew it up at home. But some guys home-brew because they enjoy the activity.


The antlers fell on his property. He had a right to them. This young man, not a kid but a full grown man, did not. He may not like the landowner for denying him the chance to walk his property and collect those antlers. But that's because the landowner enjoys that activity himself. And he spent an investment in both time and money to create conditions to enhance what he took pleasure in. He didn't just rob him of some measly deer horns. He took away a chance to do something he enjoyed.


I know fellows who created fishponds on their property. They stock them with fish, feed them, and create nice conditions for them to thrive so they can go spend a lazy Sunday catching them with their grandsons. If some guy snuck in at night and caught all the guy's fish, he's robbed him of something that is hard to assign a dollar value to.


I listened to the radio broadcast. Levi Ward's father should be ashamed. The property owners around this landowner benefitted from him leaving that field unharvested. The deer had a supply of quality food during the winter. Any deer they hunted during that fall season that fed off his crop, but wandered onto the neighboring land, was fattened by his efforts. Rather than castigate him, they should thank him.


This represents the worst aspects of unethical hunters. They insist they should have a right to use someone else's property in the name of hunting.

[Double Naught Spy]

I agree that the kid did wrong, but I have trouble believing that the land owner invested all that time and money for the sole purpose of collecting shed antlers. He is stretching the point quite a bit. He may have spent a lot of money, but it wasn't just for the antlers.

It would have been a lot more effective to have set up the camera with a view of a No Trespassing sign as well. Now that would have been good. Were there No Trespassing signs?

[Ash]

Is that a state that requires posting? If it is not, then no sign is needed. In many states, trespassing is trespassing, regardless of a colorful sign. There are plenty of "posted" signs about, but they are merely reminders.

In any case, he may have also used the corn field as a food plot for actual hunting. He may not, who knows. I have managed more than 130,000 acres of timber and I have seen land owners spend large amounts of money and time for their animal of choice, often times without hunting in mind. I've seen landowns spend insane amounts of money for aesthetics alone (money that won't make trees grow any faster). It's their land and their money.

Ash

[Lee Lapin]

Very well said, Ken.

lpl/nc

[MCgunner]

I agree with Cosmoline--in most places, should be all, feeding wildlife is illegal.

It's not illegal. I have one of these. It's completely legal and I could look it up for you in Texas Parks and Wildlife regulations. Don't live in Texas? I feel real sorry for you. :D

If you don't like that, I have a trap set for hogs, baited with soured corn. I just walk up and put a .38 in their heads, drag 'em out of the trap, and gut 'em, no need to sit in a stand and watch a feeder. It's protein I'm after, not mosquito bites.

I can't improve on what Ken says. And, here, property doesn't even need a fence, let alone a sign. Trespass is trespass.

http://images.ebsco.com/moultrie/catalog/MFH-EZF30T.jpg?w=500

[Art Eatman]

Savage Shooter, you commented about "just antlers". Did you read of the market value of those "just antlers"?

From Post #2: "...he can get $7 a pound for the sheds, unless you get a rare one then you have to get a set, been offered $100-150 for a set."

The thief was stealing for the money, not some sort of casual, "Hey, look at the neat set of antlers I found. I'm gonna put those above my desk."

The landowner is willing to forego $4,000 in income in order to have enjoyment of his property. That's a pretty sizable monetary-value theft by this "only trespassing" piece of human garbage.

I dunno. The idea that it's trivial to hurt somebody's enjoyment of his proprrety bothers me. IMO, it's not trivial to just blow off somebody's property rights. And I purely do despise a thief.

My attitude is real simple: If it's on somebody else's property, IT AIN'T MINE!

[PotatoJudge]

On trespassing where there are no signs posted or fences: you may not know whose land it is, but you should know it's not yours.

Those sheds have monetary value independent of the investment by the landowner.

the landowner sounds to be a freakin idiot for spending all that money just for sheds

Just because something has little value to another doesn't decrease it's value to the owner, and it certainly doesn't make it any less a crime to steal it.

[Rembrandt]

Just antlers?..........one pair of sheds from Iowa sold last year for around $17,000, another set went for around $5,000. The area this happened in is where the Tony Lovstuen Buck was taken and is well known for world class racks.

http://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/trophybucks/tr_aa0104lovstuen1.jpg

Net non-typical Boone and Crockett score of 307 5/8, Tony Lovstuen's 38-point Iowa monster is the world's biggest whitetail ever shot by a hunter.

[XavierBreath]

As to the general market value of shed antlers, click here (http://search.ebay.com/shed-antlers_W0QQdfspZ32QQfromZR40QQfsooZ2QQfsopZ34QQsbrsrtZd).

I figure Levi Ward knew what they were worth..........

[redneck2]

If the antlers weren't worth anything, why was the guy out there in the first place?

Kinda reminds me of the scrappers that "find" stuff and take it to the salvage yards to sell. That roll of copper wire? Just "found" it laying in some yard. Didn't look like it belonged to anybody. Been there for a long time. They weren't using it anyway......

[hso]

A trespasser taking anything not belonging to him is a thief.

Sounds like this guy may be petty, but he's not just a petty thief.

Now, it doesn't warrant a shooting or lynching, but his daddy should be ashamed he didn't get through to the fella when he was younger that you ask before you take what isn't yours.

[Cosmoline]

What annoys me is that a real man doesn't moan and complain about how some trespassing kid has destroyed his life. Nor does he post absurd wanted posters on the net like some teenage girl in a hissy fit. He demands his property back in writing and if it is not forthcoming he takes the matter to court for PROPER RESOLUTION LIKE AN ADULT. The court will issue an order of replevin and/or for proper damages.

[PotatoJudge]

a real man doesn't moan and complain about how some kid has destroyed his life, or post absurd wanted posters on the net like some teenaged girl in a hissy fit

The landowner did neither. He gathered evidence and went to the authorities. He also enumerated why being stolen from bothered him. It wasn't the landowner that made up the original poster, and didn't (I don't think) overstate what was taken from him.

Wild animals should remain wild.

Keep in mind the relative population densities of Alaska and Texas. Particularly in cramped quarters, humans can't avoid having and effect on the local wildlife. We're going to change their range, movements, and eating habits. At least we can say we've encouraged some genetic variety in the state. Variety aides survival, which is good game management.

[The Tourist]

If the story was just this one guy, it might be read and forgotten about. Unfortunately it is all too common.

Wisconsin is a big whitetail hunting state. And I wish I could say that everyone I met was professional and considerate of fences and private property.

The first year I worked as professional sharpener a "hunter" asked me to repair a Buck Alpha Hunter that had some major chips in the edge. This "sportsman" told me it happened "chopping down a barbwire fence" that was "in the way" to his favorite hunting spot. Turns out the real owner of the property put up the fence.

Another guy told me his tale of woe when a piece of land changed hands. An older gentleman had originally owned the land, and the title was bequeathed to his son upon death. The new owner had a family and didn't want people he never met on his land with guns, and he posted the property.

This "hunter" looked me in the eye fuming that all of the "good deer" were now out of reach.

These guys were around, are around, and will be around as long as people hunt. There is always an excuse, always a twist of fortune that makes them criminals or justifies a deer to poach.

In telling the story, I wonder if the "death warrant" was actually a clever way to scare the kid into coming forward.

[BullfrogKen]

Cosmo,

This wasn't a kid, he was an adult.


The property owner didn't add the commentary to the picture. As I understand it he put the picture up looking for help identifying the trespasser. Someone else doctored it up and posted it.


I think we both know that the courts aren't concerned about exacting justice for individuals.

[eliphalet]

And hollering for physical violence is Low Road, regardless of the provocationSo is one in one hundred folks incarcerated in this country high road? I would say it is high time something was done to curtail crime in this country and Jail or at least jail and punishment as we know it ain't getting the job done.
I durn sure don't know the answer, but the system in use presently isn't it. Some good old fashioned corporal punishment may not be high road to some but under the present circumstances it sounds good to me, an for sure something else needs to be done.
I can't speak for anyone but I for one am tired of the way folks live in fear of their lives and property. That doesn't strike me as very high road either.
Spare the rod and spoil the child holds for grownups too IMHO.

[3pairs12]

A shed may be just a shed but if this "kid" didn't get caught, what would of happened next. If I caught somebody trespassing on my land doing anything I'd be pissed. If they were stealing from me I'd be very pissed, because that is what he was doing in my book. $100 fine is not nearly enough he should have been prosecuted for theft.

[Cosmoline]

He also enumerated why being stolen from bothered him. It wasn't the landowner that made up the original poster, and didn't (I don't think) overstate what was taken from him.

If he's in the right, he can take the individual to court and get his property back or compensation. I really see no point to airing a grudge against a neighbor on talk radio or the internet.

I think we both know that the courts aren't concerned about exacting justice for individuals.

That's cynical nonsense. This is, as presented, a very straight-forward case of trespass and conversion that could be resolved quickly in small claims court. We're not living in a third world nation here.

[Double Naught Spy]

Is that a state that requires posting? If it is not, then no sign is needed. In many states, trespassing is trespassing, regardless of a colorful sign. There are plenty of "posted" signs about, but they are merely reminders.

Yes Ash, I wasn't arguing for the sake of legalities, but for the sake of photodocumentation.

Kinda reminds me of the scrappers that "find" stuff and take it to the salvage yards to sell. That roll of copper wire? Just "found" it laying in some yard. Didn't look like it belonged to anybody. Been there for a long time. They weren't using it anyway......

redneck2, as you know from a previous thread, http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=307619&highlight=pay+hunt+land , there are those who feel that such resources are public property. If they don't feel that it is right or legal that they be restricted from actually hunting community resources, they won't think twice about collecting resources off the ground.

What annoys me is that a real man doesn't moan and complain about how some trespassing kid has destroyed his life.

LOL, I can't believe somebody played the testicular "real man" card. If you want to play the real man card, then let's just say that real men don't steal...and you aren't with the MMM are you Cosmoline, right? If you were, then I would expect you to call the thief a kid or child, LOL. As pro gun people, we have argued repeatedly that the kids and children often referred to by the MMM are old enough to vote and own guns and hence are ADULTS. If he is an adult and recognized as such by us for gun ownership reasons, then he is an adult enough to be complained about for his transgressions. Since when do folks not get to complain about crimes committed against them?

[Art Eatman]

There's getting to be too much backing-and-forthing of a personal nature about "What I believe is..." vs. what somebody else believes.

Feeding or not-feeding wildlife is not at issue, here; it's off-topic.

[TCB in TN]

If he's in the right, he can take the individual to court and get his property back or compensation. I really see no point to airing a grudge against a neighbor on talk radio or the internet.

The problem here is that RIGHT and legal and or legally proveable, are NOT the same thing.


That's cynical nonsense. This is, as presented, a very straight-forward case of trespass and conversion that could be resolved quickly in small claims court. We're not living in a third world nation here.

Our judicial system is broke, has been for a long time and shows NO signs of changing any time soon. As for the third world nation comment, well that seems to be up for debate, or at least it looks like we are heading towards that end!

This young man is a punk, who needs to learn to stay on his OWN property and leave the property of others alone. A thief is a thief, and a man who would steal antlers today, will likely steal something else at a later date!

[Cosmoline]

The problem here is that RIGHT and legal and or legally proveable, are NOT the same thing

The fellow is on film. There may not be enough for a criminal prosecution, but there appears to be more than enough for civil court.

[strutnrut1984]

point is the land is posted or a reason. im sure there were signs. its numbskulls like these that ruin it for the honest hunters out there who ask permission. remember to ask and not trespass. all they can say is no.