AK optics


PDA






callo685
April 2, 2008, 04:39 PM
I have a WASR 10 AK. Whats the best way to add optics? And whats the best kind to add? I was thinking something cheap nothing fancy

If you enjoyed reading about "AK optics" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
briansmithwins
April 2, 2008, 06:13 PM
Best way is to install a side rail.
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=56&t=105062

Best optics for the $s are Russian: PK-AS, PK-A, Kobra
http://www.tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/bstkobra.html
http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/pkas.html

Cheap optics are hardly ever worth it.

http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=56&t=105062

BSW

blackcash88
April 2, 2008, 06:48 PM
How do you install a side rail? Does it have to be riveted?

Pilot
April 2, 2008, 06:52 PM
I have the Kobra site on my AK-74 clone and it works great. I converted a Romanian Romak II and added the Kobra as the finishing touch. It already had the side rail mount.

yosarian
April 2, 2008, 07:00 PM
No most siderails will slide on and be held in place with screws or a quick release.

jlbraun
April 2, 2008, 07:01 PM
An Ultimak rail isn't bad either.

nalioth
April 2, 2008, 07:17 PM
The WASR rifles come from the factory with a side rail. No installation needed.

benEzra
April 2, 2008, 07:22 PM
Here's a SAR-1 (Romanian AK like your WASR) with a Kobra on the built-in siderail mount:

http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/forums/uploads/1168567538/gallery_260_23_20379.jpg

IMHO, a 1x optic like the Kobra is the best match for the AK's capabilities, assuming you have decent eyesight.

casio02478
April 2, 2008, 07:45 PM
+1 Kobra sight

slogfilet
April 2, 2008, 08:41 PM
I'd like to hear some opinions on the Ultimak rail. Spendy, but seems like a good option for a red dot. I happen to have a Yugo, and I see they make an appropriate model.

vzenmn
April 2, 2008, 08:58 PM
Anybody have a review on the Kobra on their AR? And what do they usually cost?

MechAg94
April 2, 2008, 09:04 PM
I got a Kobra sight for my AK last January. It was right around $200 with shipping and such. I had to pay taxes since Tantal is located in Texas.

As far as I am concerned the sight is great. The red dot shapes are easy to use and see. It is very tough and rugged. The controls are very rough and durable and simple. The only kinks are you need tools to set the zero. The knob adjustment is considered a field adjustment only. It only allows less than one turn either way. You just need a small and medium flat screw driver and the adjustment can be fine tuned pretty tight if you take some time with it. It makes it easier to shoot accurately at the shorter ranges. Much better than the crude iron sights.
Also, the letters on the sight are in Russian so you have to remember what is up,down, right, and left. :D

Either way, I intend to get at least one more.

MechAg94
April 2, 2008, 09:06 PM
I don't know how the Kobra matches up with red dot sights that are similarly priced. I imagine it is a bit tougher than most of them.

How much to good AIMpoint sights go for?

MD_Willington
April 2, 2008, 09:55 PM
Kobra from Tantal aka Doug Ford
$189.95 (+ $8.00 shipping)
http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/


EKP-8-02

GENERATION 2 KOBRA

KALASHNIKOV SIDE MOUNT VERSION

Made in Russia by Izhevski motozavod Axion

This is the second generation variant for use with the AK rifle and Saiga shotguns. EKP-8-02 is currently under evaluation by various Russian special forces for use on the AK-74M rifle, as well as combat shotguns. Developed using feedback gained on the Chechen battlefields, this version offers improved performance and ergonomics. Out of the box, this unit will fit the side mounting plate of the AK rifles to include SAR series, Saiga based models (AK-103), Vepr I and II, Arsenal, 74MP, MPK, etc., as well as Saiga shotguns (which makes a very deadly and effective combination). It is shipped to you (in original factory packing) with a fresh battery, special adjusting tool, cleaning cloth, and manual. EKP-8-02 uses an standard 3V keyless remote/calculator coin type lithium battery.

EKP-8-02 features include a slightly raised optical lens for an unobstructed field of view, ergonomically positioned right side weatherized controls with easy to adjust sure-grip range and windage dials, weatherproofed assembly (and battery compartment), and higher cold weather performance due to the battery type.

Four improved reticle patterns (changed at the push of a button), and 16 brightness variations offers limitless flexibility. Includes a newly redesigned ballistic nylon belt carried field case currently available in Russian Woodland or MVD Taiga camouflage pattern.

Kobra EKP-8-02 will fit all forms of European AK side mounting plates. If you do not have an optics side plate on your rifle, we also carry Russian designed MPK and 74MP models, listed below. Buy the sight and side plate as a set and the side plate is sold at a discount (see below).

EKP-8-02 Kobra Gen-II combat sight for AK side mounting, 16-level brightness control, 4-pattern reticule selection, includes camo carrying case and special adjusting tool, mint new in factory packaging w/English manual SALE! $189.95 (+ $8.00 shipping) IN STOCK

http://www.tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/high/G204.jpg
http://www.tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/high/G205.jpg

Monty
April 3, 2008, 12:29 AM
Would you happen to have the prices for the EKP-1S-03M and the PK-AS-V?

Thanks, Monty

GunTech
April 3, 2008, 01:10 AM
The only downside to the side rail I can see is that it does cover the top cover. For the sort of rifle the AK is, the scout scope seems to make more sense to me, hence i favor the Ultimak. But that is a more expensive solution.

Clipper
April 3, 2008, 08:45 AM
The only downside to the side rail I can see is that it does cover the top cover.

So what? My rail mount still gives me enough clearance to remove the cover without removing the mount...

thisisdenny
April 3, 2008, 02:02 PM
I went with a low weaver siderail and a PK-AS-W. The combination put the sight way too high and moved the center of gravity of the rifle up considerably. Getting a cheek weld was impossible and the way the rifle handled w/ the change in weight distribution sucked. I was pretty disappointed by this setup.

YMMV

MD_Willington
April 3, 2008, 07:16 PM
EKP-1S-03M

GENERATION 1+ KOBRA

KALASHNIKOV SIDE MOUNT USING AA BATTERIES

Made in Russia by Izhevski motozavod Axion

This is the 2005 upgrade version of the original Kobra sight for use on the AK rifle which received numerous improvements after extensive combat use on the Chechen battlefields. EKP-1S-03M is the latest version of the original side mounting AK model using AA battery type. Versions of this sight have been identified in photographs of SPETsNAZ forces in action in Chechnya, attached to the mounts of Russian AK-74M rifles.

Model -03M has several improvements designed for severe use, including a reinforced, finned mounting bracket that offers more rigidity and strength over all previous models. Advantages over previous models include a much stronger, rock solid mounting bracket, and regular AA battery operation. It is also the only model currently offered with the popular rubber anti-glint hood, commonly referred to as a "sun shield".

Compared to other optical aids, Kobra most closely matches the performance, range, and primary strengths of the Kalashnikov rifle. It has the ability to make the shooter more effective as a small arms operator by enabling him to acquire targets more rapidly, aim without the need to align sights, and pay more attention to the surrounding field of view while keep both eyes open. We have found that most people who have tried the sight are extremely happy with it, and have become more accurate and enjoy using it over the iron sights.

Kobra is shipped to you with full accessories (in original factory packaging) to include new high quality batteries, rubber "sun shield" hood, manual, cleaning cloth and manual. This model uses standard 1.5 volt AA batteries and has 4 improved reticle patterns. Includes the newest design ballistic nylon belt carried field case in authentic Russian camouflage patterns. These will fit all forms of European AK side mounting plates (bases). If you do not have one, we also carry Russian designed mounting base installation kits.

EKP-1S-03M Kobra combat sight for AK side mounting, uses AA batteries, 16-level brightness control, 4-pattern reticule selection, includes camo carrying case, adjusting tool and rubber hood, mint new in factory packaging w/English manual SALE! $189.95 (+ $8.00 shipping) IN STOCK


and


PK-AS-V popular "over-the-bore" model designed for AK rifles, using the popular side mounting "V" clamp, with 8-level manually adjustable brightness, fast-action MOA range adjustment cam $229.95 (+ $6.90 shipping) IN STOCK

Monty
April 4, 2008, 12:33 AM
EKP-1S-03M Kobra combat sight for AK side mounting, uses AA batteries, 16-level brightness control, 4-pattern reticule selection, includes camo carrying case, adjusting tool and rubber hood, mint new in factory packaging w/English manual SALE! $189.95 (+ $8.00 shipping) IN STOCK

THANKS!!! :D

Monty

rbernie
April 4, 2008, 12:35 AM
I am very partial to Aimpoints on Ultimak rails. The Ultimak mounts are much more solid than the siderail mounts, and I find the forward-mounting optic to be very satisfying for most work inside of 200 yards.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=63168&d=1188489535

lvcat2004
April 4, 2008, 01:26 AM
I put POSP on my AK (not actual pic. of my gun, but they all look similar with sl. diff. mag.)

http://www.dragunov.net/romak/romakwpso8.jpg

callo685
April 4, 2008, 03:14 AM
I really like that Kobra, I might just have to look in to one

blackcash88
April 4, 2008, 03:30 PM
No most siderails will slide on and be held in place with screws or a quick release.

So, what does the side rail slide on to? I'm talking about the side rail that's permanently fixed to the receiver. I know the optic mount can slide on that rail and be screwed down. Since my AK doesn't have anything on the left of the receiver, I'd need the permanent rail. How hard/$$$ is it to have one riveted or welded on? Who would be good to have that done and ensure it's mounted as straight as can be?

nalioth
April 4, 2008, 03:41 PM
How hard/$$$ is it to have one riveted or welded on? Who would be good to have that done and ensure it's mounted as straight as can be? Both screw and traditional rivet offerings can be found here: http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/bstmounts.html

They are easily installed ( you can do it yourself ).

SSN Vet
April 4, 2008, 04:08 PM
I'm saving my pennies to put a KOBRA on my converted Saiga x39.

Wrt. ballance, I think this will suit my preferences better.

I find even the 16" AKs to be slightly front heavy, so anything installed aft of the C.O.G. (fwd. edge of mag well), should help to ballance the rifle.

I can't help but think that any type of scout mount would change the rifle from slightly front heavy to very front heavy.

blackcash88
April 4, 2008, 04:09 PM
Thanks for the link, but it still looks like I'd have to drill/tap or rivet the side plate on, right? There's no extra holes that aren't riveted on the left side of my receiver.

AK103K
April 4, 2008, 04:14 PM
I am very partial to Aimpoints on Ultimak rails.
Me too. :)

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8dd31b3127cceb677e4e1817b00000026100CYuWbdo5bsU
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7d700b3127ccebc12073f192a00000036100CYuWbdo5bsU

The Ultimak/Aimpoint set up is really the best solution. With the sight mounted forward on a low ring, the dot will cowitness with your irons and its out of your way, both in handling and field of view. The rifle shoulders and shoots naturally with the same cheek weld as your iron sights.

Nothing wrong with Russian optics, like anything else Russian, its well made, and built like a tank. They are just lacking in placement and use.

blackcash88
April 4, 2008, 04:15 PM
Does it make the rifle nose heavy at all?

Deer Hunter
April 4, 2008, 04:43 PM
I am very partial to Aimpoints on Ultimak rails. The Ultimak mounts are much more solid than the siderail mounts

Ever tested that theory? My Saiga has a POSP mounted on a siderail and it is insanly sturdy.

SSN Vet
April 4, 2008, 05:01 PM
I thought one of the Russian side mounts (not sure which one, but I'd like to know) was a low rise, barely clearing the receiver cover.

seems like this would do the trick

MechAg94
April 4, 2008, 05:32 PM
The Kobra and the side mounted rail I have both sit just over the receiver cover more me. No cheek weld issues for me at least. On my Vepr, they are also lined up with the center of the rifle also. The Kobra was centered well on my Saiga conversion also.

I might try the Ultimak for my Tantal 5.45 rifle as it has no side rail. We'll see.

briansmithwins
April 4, 2008, 05:45 PM
I've owned rifle with both screwed-on and riveted optics siderails. There is very little difference cosmetically, and no difference mechanically.

As for the Ultimak, 2 words: corrosive ammo.

BSW

blackcash88
April 4, 2008, 05:57 PM
Brian, how the heck do you mount the screwed on side rails? I don't have any "extra" holes in my receiver. Would I have to drill/tap some? If not, what does the rail screw on to?

AK103K
April 4, 2008, 06:02 PM
Does it make the rifle nose heavy at all?
Not at all.

...and no difference mechanically.
as long as they are installed properly.

As for the Ultimak, 2 words: corrosive ammo.
2 more.... so what? :)

nalioth
April 4, 2008, 09:31 PM
how the heck do you mount the screwed on side rails? I don't have any "extra" holes in my receiver. Would I have to drill/tap some? If not, what does the rail screw on to? Depending on which rail you get, you will need to drill at least two holes in your receiver. When the commies assemble a rifle, the end most hole in the rail is riveted to the forward block rivet and two extra holes are used for riveting the other holes. Tapping would depend on you got the rail with the screws or not.

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/3487/mpk204jg8.jpg

Omnivore
April 4, 2008, 10:16 PM
I'll go ahead and chime in here. As the designer of the UltiMAK AK forward optic mount, I say use all the corrosive ammo you want. AL oxide is practically inert, and less susceptible than the steel parts of the AK. If you swab the piston bore from behind, three or four times in a lifetime, you're ahead of the game.

Some people have no problem with a taller optic, and some side mounts have less rise than others, but the UltiMAK mount is as low as physically possible, so as to optimise with the original AK comb height. Co-witnessing is only a side benefit for those who are interested. On that note; I've fired in excess of 10K rounds with the UltiMAK/Aimpoint combo in all sorts of conditions, and I can't recall ever actually using the irons through the Aimpoint even once. But they are there, I suppose. One thing co-witnessing does for you, and it only does it once, is it allows you to get a pretty good "zero shot zero". You align the irons visually, and adjust 'till your dot sits on top of the front post (do this with a very low dot intensity, which is also useful for the most accurate fire when shooting from the bench). Always confirm zero on paper, 'cause it'll never be exact until you shoot and adjust that way.

We're working on a new side mount design, so I can't say much against side rail mounts, except that some of them are extREMEly high, and others not so much. It's also a matter of where you want your optic; front or back.

As for the weight-- the UltiMAK mount adds less than an ounce to most AKs (I say "most" because it depends on the weight of the original gas tube/upper handguard assembly that's being replaced). Interestingly, installing the model M9 mount actually reduces the weight of a synth-stocked Yugo M70. Put on an Aimpoint Micro, and your total M70 rifle weight has been increased by about 2.5 or 3 ounces, IIRC. If weight is a big issue, add up the weight of the steel side rail (assuming you're deciding on an AK that has one vs. an AK that doesn't) the side rail mount, and the rings/base if applicable).

I'll shut up now or I'll be accused of proselytizing. Just wanted to state some specs, since people were asking. I don't post in RifleCountry very often, but this thread seemed to have my name on it.

R127
April 5, 2008, 01:09 AM
I had an Ultimak on one of my AK's. It did a decent job for the most part but has a significant downfall if you're using it for more than just shooting on the range. AK gas tubes get hot fast and obviously have been known to melt polymer handguards and ignite wooden ones. Aluminum gets just as hot and does so very quickly. It sure sucks to have to handle your rifle in a more dynamic way and grab some hot Ultimak. A forward pistol grip helps a lot, then you just have to worry about thermal dammage to the optic and brushing the upper handguard against your body. It has its positives and negatives. I think the rocker mount or side mount avoid the pitfalls but still give most of the same benefits. YMMV

MD_Willington
April 5, 2008, 03:20 AM
Just got my Kobra in the mail today

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/MDWillington1976/Firearms/Hpim2771.jpg

phoglund
April 5, 2008, 03:47 AM
vzenmn

Anybody have a review on the Kobra on their AR? And what do they usually cost?

I have a Kobra on my AR and think it's a great red dot sight for a great price. Ruggedly built and easy to use with several options for brightness and type of reticle. (Note that they will not co-witness using a standard flat top receiver.)

The price is comparable to the side rail mount types priced earlier in the thread.

AK103K
April 5, 2008, 08:46 AM
Aluminum gets just as hot and does so very quickly. It sure sucks to have to handle your rifle in a more dynamic way and grab some hot Ultimak.
Aluminum is much better than steel in this respect, it retains heat less, and cools much quicker. The Ultmak does not stay hot long, and cools quicker than the original wood/steel handguard..

I've shot my AK's fast and furious to the point you could not touch the barrel, and I never had any issues with handling either of them with one mounted due to heat nor has the heat been an issue with any of the optics that were mounted on them.

benEzra
April 5, 2008, 09:09 AM
The only downside to the side rail I can see is that it does cover the top cover.
Not really an issue, because the optics hold zero when removed and replaced from the siderail, and you can remove the top cover without removing the optic (though you'll need to remove the optic to get the bolt carrier out).

rbernie
April 5, 2008, 11:30 AM
My Saiga has a POSP mounted on a siderail and it is insanly sturdy.
The mount may be sturdy, but the sidewall of the receiver is not. Even with a quality low mount (of which I have three, BTW), the scope noticably deflects laterally under pressure with a siderail mount. I've dropped a Kobra-equipped AKM and lost zero as a result. (The Kobra still worked, tho..)

R127
April 5, 2008, 02:34 PM
Aluminum is much better than steel in this respect, it retains heat less, and cools much quicker. The Ultmak does not stay hot long, and cools quicker than the original wood/steel handguard..

Yes, aluminum does bleed heat fast and that's one of the positives to the Ultimak. Still, fire makes metal hot. More exposed hot metal especially in the vicinity of your support hand does have the potential to be a problem depending on what you have to do. On the range it's no sweat, when there are badguys shooting back it may become an issue.


I've shot my AK's fast and furious to the point you could not touch the barrel, and I never had any issues with handling either of them with one mounted due to heat

For the most frequent uses most people put their AK's to I would agree. As long as you never have to do anything that could bring burning hot metal in contact with your skin you're fine. Obviously the same rule applies to the exposed portion of the barrel beyond the handguards too. This is nothing new, take a look at pretty much any of the old bolt action military rifles and all the major ones I can think of at the moment had full length handguards.


nor has the heat been an issue with any of the optics that were mounted on them.

This is an area you have a lot of control over by selecting the right optics so yes, this potential problem is completely avoidable.

I'm not saying Ultimak's suck, they have their strengths and weaknesses like anything else. For hunting hunting or the most likely self defense scenarios you are unlikely to be putting enough rounds through your AK for the problem to materialize. For range use it doesn't matter because you have 100% control over the environment and never will have to do anything potentially risky.

ZombiesAhead
April 12, 2008, 10:49 PM
I love my PK-AS side-mount on my WASR - purchased from Tantal. I'm thinking about putting one of these (Kobra or PK) on my AR-15. Any suggestions between the two for use on an AR?

Fu-man Shoe
April 13, 2008, 06:11 PM
http://www.buildyourownak.com/tactical8vw.jpg

metzgeri
April 22, 2008, 01:46 AM
A little late chiming in here, but I must. I have had a Kobra EKP-8-02 on my SAR-1 since 2003 and have had no problems with it. Five years and thousands of rounds later, I must profess a fondness for this Russian born collimator sight (bought from Doug also). I am, however, finally buying a sun shade for it, since it does wash out when shot into the sun otherwise.

I can admit that (at least mine) does not hold zero after taking it off and reinstalling. But zero is off less than 1/4 MOA and really, what kind of MOA do you expect from an AK? Probably 2 MOA at best for me, even with electronics.

Now, if you fire corrosive ammo, as the Yugo definitely is, cleaning it from an ultimak would also require removing the gas tube. No matter what, you MUST remove the gas tube to clean the gas block properly, irregardless of ammo fired!

And so, is a gas tube mounted sight anywhere as stable as a side-receiver mounted? You be the judge:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0

Just me thinkin', nutin' else...

metzgeri

chris in va
April 22, 2008, 02:09 AM
I'm on the hunt for a good side rail mount myself. Looking for something low mounted so I can have some semblance of a cheek weld.

Looked at this one, kinda pricy though.

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/6600/molotakextra1inch1600zv6.jpg

theken206
April 22, 2008, 02:32 AM
i take it the ultimak would be a good rail to use for an EOTech?

MD_Willington
April 22, 2008, 02:04 PM
I've stared through an ACOG on the Ultimak... worked alright... didn't shoot anything with it though, the guys in the office beside Ultimak in Moscow may have got a little upset if we did.. LOL

Remove the tactical accessories... hey no way, I'm collecting up a Russian set, Russian rifle, Russian red dot.. LOL

jlbraun
April 22, 2008, 02:10 PM
i take it the ultimak would be a good rail to use for an EOTech?

Not really. EoTechs are heat sensitive. A couple of mag dumps and your EoTech may shut off due to heat affecting the battery voltage (batteries are in the base). Aimpoints don't have this issue because of where the batteries are located.

Coronach
April 22, 2008, 02:24 PM
Also, if you want to maintain cheek weld, you're looking for LOW. Eotechs are many things, but "low" is not among them. Would it work? Absolutely. Would it be the better choice? Probably not. If the choice was Eo or Aimpoint for an Ultimak, I would go Aimpoint.

Mike

If you enjoyed reading about "AK optics" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!