[Jack T.]

For all you Tom Clancy fans, I just finished reading his newest: Teeth of the Tiger.

IMO: 6 (maybe 7) out of 10. Pretty short, for a Clancy, only 430 some pages.

One line answer: Don't spend the money unless you already have all his other "real" novels and just need this one to round out your collection.

Two line answer: If you have a buddy who is gonna buy this book, borrow it off of him. Otherwise, don't bother.

Storyline: New super secret "non-governmental" outfit to gather intelligence and act upon that intelligence. Namely, find terrorist and eliminate them.

What worked: The man knows his firearms. He also does the research required to write a convincing novel. As usual, his storyline is extremely relevant to today's society, dealing with terrorists and the elimination thereof. This was one of the easiest of his books to read, almost as easy as Patriot Games. I knocked it out in about 3 evenings.

What didn't: Dang near everything. Quite honestly, this book was nowhere near the level of writing I have come to expect of Tom Clancy. I got to the end and thought "Wow, that was a good prologue, now where is the real story". It was very shallow when compared to his other writings. Instead of multiple storylines, Teeth of the Tiger pretty much has one. Clancy introduces Jack Ryan, Jr, son of Jack Ryan of most of the other Clancy books. And what do you know. . .He also introduces a pair of twins who, gee whiz, are Jack Jrs cousins, one of which is a Marine and the other a Fed. If I had a quarter for every time Jack Jr talked about his Dad, I would be able to order one of those Damascus 1911s that was on the cover of American Handgunner ( I think ) a few months back. Talking about Dad got very old, very quickly. Unlike most of his stuff, this one is not a thinker. Even The Bear and The Dragon, which most people seemed to give low marks, made you think "Dang. . .is our economy that fragile?" This book just took up 400 pages to kill off 4 relatively low level terrorists using cool, but not "oh wow, that is cool", methods.

At any rate, that is what I thought of it. I HOPE I am in the minority. I HOPE that most people who read Teeth of the Tiger truly enjoy it because Clancy is a good, conservative writer. . .and Lord knows we need all of those we can find.

[Unisaw]

I just finished reading Red Rabbit. If his name wasn't on the cover, I never would have guessed it was written by Tom Clancy. There really was very little suspense or surprise in this novel, and I wouldn't recommend that anyone shell out $7.99 to buy even paperback edition. I hope this isn't a trend.

[Vladimir Berkov]

I think Tom Clancy suffers from the same problem John Grisham does. Namely, that he has found the formula for a good book, and then just repeats it with various degrees of success. For example, Most Clancy novels simply involve the USA pounding on some other country/entity X for some reason X. You can count on the USA taking some early punches, but they ALWAYS come back in the end and wrap everything up nicely. The good guys triumph, the bad guys all get punished. The USA always has the technology/super secret agents/military genius that it needs to get rid of the bad guys. It starts to get old the second time you read the same plot.

Same with Grisham. You can only read about bungling Feds, the lone, determined, idealistic lawyer, etc, so many times before you get really annoyed.

[Preacherman]

I enjoyed the first few Clancy novels: "Red Storm Rising", "The Hunt For Red October", "The Cardinal Of The Kremlin", and, to a lesser extent, "Patriot Games" and "Clear And Present Danger". However, after these, I found myself really sickened by some of the thoroughly nasty detail he was putting into the books, and also by the more and more unbelievable characters and plots. I didn't bother buying any more after these: read a few, found them lacking, and haven't bothered with him since then.

[C.R.Sam]

Preacherman just named the ones I like, and similarily graded em.

Much of his later stuff seems to have been written by a committee. And some it actually was.

Sam

[Dave R]

I think he peaked with "Debt of Honor". Maybe he "called in rich" after that, and if just fulfilling his contract?

I mostly agree with preacherman's list, but Debt is my favorite.

[telewinz]

I'm currently reading "Red Storm Rising" for about the 6th time since Clancy first wrote it. The only other books I've read of his is "The Hunt for Red October" and the "The Cardinal of the Kremlin" both of course outstanding. Seems I quit reading his material at the right time.

[Kaylee]

And now we're going to get to the part about the firearms, right?

:)

*nudge nudge on-topic nudge *

-K

[dinosaur]

Red Rabbit stunk. So do the Op Center books he puts his name on. I`m waiting to see Tom Clancy`s Gourmet Popcorn soon at the local supermarket.:rolleyes:

[Tamara]

If Clancy's such a firearms guru, whatinnahell were the Rainbow Six guys doing with ".45 Caliber Berettas"? :confused:

[buzz_knox]

At least they exist. Wasn't it in Sum of All Fears that Clark carried a 10mm Beretta? :rolleyes:

[greyhound]

Guess the man has a thing for Berettas. Though in Patriot Games doesn't Ryan have a Browning Hi Power 9MM?

[buzz_knox]

Yup. Clancy likes Brownings and Berettas.

[JohnBT]

I like Clive Clusser's Dirk Pitt - he prefers a 1911. JT

[Jack T.]

If Clancy's such a firearms guru, whatinnahell were the Rainbow Six guys doing with ".45 Caliber Berettas"?

Yeah, I noticed that myself. I guess Beretta makes a 45 Cougar, but that seemed like a highly unlikely handgun for elite troops to carry. . .

[Boats]

Yeah Berreta makes garbage and no one uses 8+1 .45 ACPs.:rolleyes:

[Langenator]

I don't know about Sum of All Fears , but in Without
Remorse John Kelly (nee Clark) used a 1911...a subcal, .22LR, suppressed 1911, later returned to original form. Plus that bangstick shotgun shell thing.

IMO, the overall quality of Clancy's stuff has been in a slow decline (greatly accelerated with Red Rabbit . I did really enjoy Without Remorse , maybe because it centered entirely around John Clark and was thus a lot different from most of Clancy's other books. Sum of All Fears I thought was also really good, although the technical parts about the terrorists building the bombs did go on a bit.

When they made it into a movie, though, I refused to see it. Partly because the movies never really do Clancy justice-the books are just too long, maybe better suited to an HBO mini-series. Partly because there's no way in hell Ben-friggin-Affleck should be playing Jack Ryan. And partly because I was serious annoyed at the studio kowtowing to political correctness and not making the BGs Arab terrorists like in the book. Wonder how much they took from the Saudis and/or their tame "charities?"

edited to correct misidentified titles

[ialevy]

Ther has always been a nasty rumor that Clancy didn't really write his books. I think there is some truth to this. His early books read nothing like the later ones. His first "researcher" (or co-author) was Larry Bond. Bond went on to write his own books that eerily resemble the prose of Clancy's early work. Red Rabbit was a total piece of crap. I was sick to death of his carping that 9mm was useless with out hollowpoints /flamesuit on :) At least he doesn't claim to have written those ops center books. BTW, the move to Jack Jr. was from pressure to crate a younger character for the movies.

Save your money. Buy David Morrell, Stephen Hunter, or, if you like a little alternate history, Harry Turtledove.

[jmtgsx]

...Without Remorse. Kind of a prequel that tells how Kelly/Clark got involved with the spooks in the first place. Good urban hunting scenario with druggies being the prey.:cool:

[Skunkabilly]

Red Rabbit sucked, I'll probably just read this one when I'm done w/ all my books just for the heck of it....

[sw442642]

I have heard that Red Storm Rising was ghosted with Larry Bond. Oops.

[Kharn]

If you want to talk about massive firearm mistakes, one of the first Op Center books involved an operative with a modified M16 with a selector on it: Lethal or Non-Lethal. It fired .50 plastic 'bullets' with a normal bullet encased inside, on the lethal setting the plastic bullet would shed off like a sabot and the normal bullet would continue on to the target. On the non-lethal setting the plastic jacket wouldnt shed and the target was just knocked over. :rolleyes:

Kharn

[Hutch]

Larry Bond got co-author billing on "Red Storm Rising", and it's no secret, as he is mentioned in the acknowledgements and forward, IIRC. Clancy got most of the credit for the book because "The Hunt for Red October" had won him such acclaim that it helped to market "Storm". I wish Clancy and Bond would team up for another. As others have pointed out, Clancy seems to be losing his edge. A bit.

[buzz_knox]

Clancy lost his edge because he took his principal character, Ryan, too far and tried to recreate him through Red Rabbit (younger version) and, I suppose, Teeth of the Tiger ("reincarnated" as Ryan's son). He needs to focus on Clark and Chavez for a while. I'd hoped he'd do that with a follow on to Rainbow Six, or maybe some fill in the gap stories ala Without Remorse (his best work).

Clancy's style really hasn't changed throughout the books, he's just gotten too big for his editors to say "Tom, this needs to be gone." Same problem that George Lucas has). That results in subplots and/or details that are unnecessary except to show that Clancy does a lot of research. The militia bomber subplot in Executive Orders is a prime example.

By the way, Clark uses a 1911 in Without Remorse, not Debt of Honor.

[Newton]

Tamara

Are you saying that Beretta is not a reasonable choice for specops, if so I think you need to re-visit that one, or, are you saying that Beretta don't make a .45ACP, if so, then there is the 8045 Cougar.

Am I missing the point :confused:

Newton

[buzz_knox]

I think her point was that a .45 Beretta Cougar is not a reasonable choice for operators, probably because of the short barrel. One can rationalize the choice in this case that because he never specifies either that it was a Cougar or a particular time period, that Beretta might have introduced another .45 that was superior for hostage rescue missions than the Cougar by the time of Rainbow Six. IIRC, he stated one time that he mentioned a 10mm Beretta in one of his books because he thought Beretta would come out with it, given the FBI's adoption of the caliber.

[Browns Fan]

I am in the middle of "The Bear and the Dragon". It started off kinda slow, probably because of all the politics involved with Ryan being the president and because the last book I read was "Blackhawk Down".

[Hkmp5sd]

Ther has always been a nasty rumor that Clancy didn't really write his books.

It's not a rumor, it's a fact. Other than his Jack Ryan books, he has let others write using his high profile name to sell books. It started with "Created by Tom Clancy and Martin Greenberg," progressed to "Created by Tom Clancy and Martin Greenberg, written by Jerome Preisler" and "Created by Tom Clancy and Steve Pieezenik, written by Jeff Rovin."

[buzz_knox]

I just skimmed Teeth of the Tiger and all I can say is, it's not Clancy's work. It in no way is his style which, good or bad, has always leaned towards the overly wordy literary style. This book seems to be written more along the lines of a modern "he pulled out his blaster and sent the mope to he!!" author. I think I'll pick up a copy from the library. My collection of Clancy doesn't have to be complete, does it?

[ialevy]

Actually the rumor is that he didn't write all of the Jack Ryan Books either..

[.45Ruger]

The Teeth of the Tiger did have some interesting references to firearms though. In the book Islamic Terrorists obtain stolen submachine guns from drug dealers, not at a gunshow through the so called "loophole". There were also a couple of refrences to CCW. One of the main characters is instructed to get a CCW for Virginia since it is a shall issue state. Later on in the book after the shootings at the malls it is stated that no fewer than 8 civilians engaged the terrorist at the mall in Utah. These references to the fact that armed civies are able to do gook was refreshing to me at least. As to the total book, I would say wait for the libraries copy to come out. It seems like this is the set up for two or three more novles in a series.

[AZLibertarian]

Clancy's work has been in a long decline, IMO. I watched him about a year ago on C-SPANs Booknotes, where he was arrogant, insufferable, and appeared to be wheezing and looking around for his next bourbon. His Op Center series is nearly unreadable. The non-fiction he's co-written is utterly predictable. He's allowed his Jack Ryan character do way too much to be believeable...C'mon--some guy goes from history prof to CIA analyst to DCI to President. I don't recall if it was in the books or the movies (so this complaint may be more properly directed to the screenwriters/directors), but in Patriot Games and Clear and Present Danger, Ryan has opportunites to pick up a gun and shoot back at the BGs, and doesn't--even when his family is in danger.

I've long thought that he could successfully sell a series that focused on the John Clark character. But what do I know.

All this being said, he has made points through his fiction that the public otherwise might not get. He's shown us the dangers of terrorists of all types. The "legal coup" possibilities inherent in the 25th Amendment. And of course, Clancy showed his prescience of the dangers of using passenger aviation as a WMD in Executive Orders .

[Skunkabilly]

So who's left now that Marcinko and Clancy are getting repetitive and predictable? :(

[tommytrauma]

I'm not used to Clancy messing up technicial details, but this book has the good guys killing terrorists by injecting them with succinylcholine, a drug used to paralyze patients. He goes on and on about how nothing can save someone once they're injected (wrong, simple mouth to mouth will keep someone alive for the short time that the drug lasts), and then mentions that they're using 7 mg even though 5 mg will do the job. Depending on protocol, the real dose is 1 to 2 mg PER KILOGRAM of body weight. For a small patient, we use 50 mg, ten times what Clancy claims is a lethal dose.

How's that for nit picking?

[Brian Dale]

I seem to recall that succinylcholine appeared in Robert Ludlum's The Matarese Circle , many years ago - on a knife that popped out of an assassin's shoe (yep, that was in the days before shoe bombs). Is succinylcholine common in spy novels, alongside the Makarovs, PPKs and Detective Specials, (or horses and tumbleweeds in a Western) or is this an unusual detail, swiped to add to Clancy's credentials in pop culture as an "expert?" -Yes, I put that in quotes. No opinion on that from me.
:neener:
Oh, Hi, Mr Clancy, sir! You say that I'll get a novel published when Where freezes over? My big mouth.

[tommytrauma]

I'm not a Ludlum fan, and don't remember seeing sux used in a novel before, but my service just started doing rapid sequence induction intubations, which is what we use sux for, a couple of years ago. Don't know if I would have really noticed it before then.

If you want a good mystery novel twist, look into DMSO, the chemical used in patch delivery meds such as nicotine patches. It passes through skin, carrying any drug mixed with it. Mix some DMSO with concentrated sux, or belladonna, or whatever, and coat the victims steering wheel with it.

[Kharn]

AZLibertarian:
I don't recall if it was in the books or the movies (so this complaint may be more properly directed to the screenwriters/directors), but in Patriot Games and Clear and Present Danger, Ryan has opportunites to pick up a gun and shoot back at the BGs, and doesn't--even when his family is in danger.
****Minor Spoilers Ahead!****


Must be the movies, in the books Ryan:
-Stitched a guy from hip to shoulder using an Uzi in Patriot Games getting his family away from the IRA.
-(I believe its Ryan, but I might be wrong) He screwed a Browning HiPower into the ear canal of a Soviet agent right after the Pope was shot in Red Rabbit
-Whacks a Soviet agent that's trying to blow up the Red October with a another Browning HiPower.
-Spray and pray'ed a couple acres of jungle with a .308 gatling gun at 6000 rounds a minute while extracting the troops in Clear and Present Danger.
-Sent his son (Jack Jr.) to learn how to shoot a Sig courtesy of the Secret Service (and mentally comments about how the media would have a field day with it if they found out) in, I believe, Executive Orders. In the same book, he also tells a reporter to forget about more gun control because the fullautos used in an assassination attempt on his daughter were already illegal.

Kharn

[Terminus]

I just finished Clancy's latest last night. While there were a bunch of parts where I had to suspend disbelief to go along with the storyline. But the notion of Islamokaze squads being secreted through Mexico and then shooting up shopping malls in Anytown, USA does scare the hell out of me. I went back to read that part a few times actually.

[Mute]

Oh well, there's always Stephen Hunter.

[Correia]

Haven't read it yet.

But I can say in all honesty that 8 CCW holders fighting terrorists at a Utah mall is a pretty conservative estimate. :) Going to have to read it just for that part.

[Skunkabilly]

Yeah in California, it'll be me and hopefully an off duty po-po that actually carries (imagine that!)...better bring some extra mags :D

[Terminus]

Clancy doesn't go into detail on any other attack except the one in VA. The FBI and Jarhead twin brother main characters,both packing, just happen to be there buying sneakers. If you can get past that coincidence, the scene is written pretty well all the way down to needing multiple hits to bring down the baddies.

[bogie]

Major spoilers ahead...












I'm about 2/3 of the way through the thing, right after the mall stuff.

Clancy isn't writing like he used to - that's obvious. All in all, tho, it ain't that bad.

But what's getting me, and it kept me away last night, was that I've been sorta predicting (see past posts here and on TFL) that Islamonutzos would do something like this - nice to see that I'm not alone in that prediction. Now I'm just wondering about shopping malls in general, and security... In the book, if the nutzos had started at the entrances, and worked their way in, rather than from the center out, there'd have been a lot more fictional casualties. Around the holiday shopping season, a group of less than 10 nutcases could likely kill/injure over a thousand in some of St. Louis' malls... There's little access, and all they'd have to do would be to herd the victims, and try to get as many as they could before the poorly equipped and probably ill-trained to deal with that sorta thing local po-po got there...

I liked the gun stuff, especially the references to civilian CCW and civilians fighting back. He's on our side. He does some good writing, does some good ideas and outlining. He just needs to find another ghost and a better story.

[Sean Smith]

Good stuff:

The Hunt for Red October
Red Storm Rising
The Cardinal of the Kremlin
Patriot Games

Steady decline in quality of everything he did thereafter.

[Balog]

I found myself really sickened by some of the thoroughly nasty detail he was putting into the books

Not familiar with his work, so I have to ask. What do you mean by "nasty detail?" Unintended Consequences style depictions of violence and/or sex?

Kharn: All I can say is :eek: How can anyone actually put something that stupid into print?

[Checkman]

AZLibertarian

Also in Patriot Games (the novel) Ryan uses a shotgun to take out one of the badguys. He uses the businessend and not the stock like happens in the movie.

I think the problem with Clancy is that he's rich and complacent. Same thing that happened to Nelson DeMille. Most authors write their best stuff during their salad days when they're hungry.

[Skunkabilly]

Not familiar with his work, so I have to ask. What do you mean by "nasty detail?" Unintended Consequences style depictions of violence and/or sex?

The latter :uhoh:

[Swamprabbit]

IMO, "The Bear and the Dragon" about put me to sleep and "Teeth of the Tiger" was, as far as I was concerned, horrible! I kept waiting for the story to do something then I came up on the back cover. I am afraid that Clancy is asleep at the wheel now and perhaps his stories have been told too many times.

[sturmruger]

I must admit that I have enjoyed almost all of Tom Clancy's books. The only ones I disliked were the pathetic Op Center series. It was terrible, and I could't stand reading it. I think that his best book was Red Storm Rising. I think I have read it a 6-7 times. I also like the latest Rainbow Six novels.

Keep in mind that Tom Clancy is worth millions now. I think he actually makes most of his money from his Video games now instead of his book deals. I went to see Sum of all Fears, and it was one of the worst movies based on a book that I have ever seen in my life. I doubt I will waste my time seeing anymore in the theatres.

[Skunkabilly]

Latest Rainbow Six novels? There's more? :confused:

Ghost Recon Ghost Recon Ghost Recon!!! :D

[adobewalls]

Please help me remember which one of Clancy's books it was that had a BG shot from across the street by a minor with a .22 rifle. I remember the description being the bullet went into the BG's neck and got the artery.

That is something that I do like about Clancy, he seems to work into his stories average citizens competently taking up arms for some sort of defense.

[Razor]

Please help me remember which one of Clancy's books it was that had a BG shot from across the street by a minor with a .22 rifle.

Clear and Present Danger

[Hatchett]

That was Clear and Present Danger, I belive. Two drug dealers with MAC-10s against a police chief on his lawn-mower with a Chief's Special and a young boy with a .22 rifle to back him up.

[Gunner45]

Later on in the book after the shootings at the malls it is stated that no fewer than 8 civilians engaged the terrorist at the mall in Utah

I haven't read the book yet but one of my shooting buddies told me about that passage in the book. He thought I would get a kick out of it as I work in that mall

I guess I will have to give it a read after all.


Gunner45