454 Casull, 45 Colt....45ACP?


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simpleguy
April 3, 2008, 12:25 PM
I have learned a lot from THR over the past couple of years. Here's a question for you wheel gun guru's.........

I understand that 454 Casull Revolvers will accept the 45 Colt round.....is it possible to have a gunsmith machine the cylinder to accept .45ACP and moon clips?

Thanks in advance,
Scotty

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Sato Ord
April 3, 2008, 12:49 PM
I could be wrong, I'm certainly no guru, but the last time I looked the .45acp has a base that doesn't protrude so it doesn't seat and chamber the same as a .45LC. I would think that if you are looking for lower power and cheaper ammo you should look into reloading your own, or have someone else reload light loads for you. Other than that I can't see any advantage to being able to chamber .45acp in a 454 revolver.

rcmodel
April 3, 2008, 12:53 PM
Possible? Yes.
Advisable? No!

The .454 runs 65,000 PSI pressure. More then most bolt-action Magnum rifles.

Anything you do to the cylinder to compromise full case head support would run a very high risk of blowing your hand off if a case let go.

It would be possible to have an extra cylinder fitted in .45 ACP in a Single-Action gun.

But it would get very expensive to do it with a Double Action gun.

rcmodel

simpleguy
April 3, 2008, 01:53 PM
RC Model - I was thinking the same thing pressure-wise. You were, thanks for confirming my fears.

rogertc1
April 3, 2008, 03:39 PM
Yes it is done and can be done using moon clips and the Ruger Alaskan. Do a google search as there is a company one can send the cylinder to to get it done.

Not sure if is the right page but keep looking

http://www.wildwestguns.com/Pistolsmithing/pistolsmithing.html

edrice
April 3, 2008, 06:23 PM
I had my S&W 625 done here -

http://www.pinnacle-guns.com/revolver.asp

...and he did an excellent job.

He lists the .454/.45LC/45ACP - runs about $85. All have to do is ship him the cylinder and $7 more to return it.

Ed

Chuck Perry
April 3, 2008, 07:38 PM
One thing to consider is that the accuracy of the 45ACP thru the converted 454 may be lacking, due to the long jump the bullet will have to make from the cylinder to the barrel. I'm sure it will be serviceable, but I wouldn't be expecting 1" groups at 25 yards from the 45ACP. 454 performance should be unaffected by such a conversion.

edrice
April 3, 2008, 10:41 PM
One thing to consider is that the accuracy of the 45ACP thru the converted 454 may be lacking, due to the long jump the bullet will have to make from the cylinder to the barrel. I'm sure it will be serviceable, but I wouldn't be expecting 1" groups at 25 yards from the 45ACP. 454 performance should be unaffected by such a conversion.


That's probably very correct. But when I had my 625 cylinder converted, it was not with an eye toward accuracy. It was done for the sake of versatility. All I can tell you for sure is that at 7 yards, the shots mostly seem to go to the same 2-inch black dot on a target and that's all I really cared about for the purpose I had in mind. What it's capable of at 25 yards with .45 acp, I'll likely never know.

Ed

mewachee
April 4, 2008, 01:54 AM
What is the downside of moonclips?

I am ignorant on this one. I understand the problems with the 45 acp, but what other problems occur.

Redhawk1
April 4, 2008, 07:24 AM
Yes it can be done, I have a 454 Casull Super Redhawk that started life as a 7 .5 inch gun, now that Jack Huntington done his magic, it sports a 2.5 inch barrel, the hammer is bobbed and a lot of other cool stuff done to it. But one other thing he did was modify the cylinder to accept moon clips. So now the gun will accept 454 Casull, 45 Colts, 45 Win Mag's with moon clips as well as 45 ACP with moon clips.

The machine work was done on the extractor and the area where the extractor sits, which does not effect the integrity of the cylinder.

As for accuracy, the 454 Casull, 45 Colts and 45 Win Mag's are extremely accurate. The 45 ACP is accurate out to about 15 yards, after that the accuracy is non existent. But the cool thing is, I can still use the 45 Win Mags with moon clips and reloading is very fast. I don't shoot many 45 ACP's, the other rounds are much more fun.

This modification was done about 2 years before the first Ruger Alaskan hit the market. I think when Ruger saw pictures of the Jack Huntington, JHR Super Streethawk as he name it, they copied it except for the cylinder modification and bobbed hammer.


mewachee, there is no down side. Also people forget the 45 Win Mag can be used with the moon clips in the 454 Casull also, I do it all the time.

edrice
April 4, 2008, 07:48 AM
The only downside to full-moon clips that I can see is removing the spent shells from them. Not always a bad thing but sometimes you might need a little tool to remove them efficiently.

I do have some nylon composite moonclips that are great for practice and those are easy to empty because they are flexible. Very handy.

Before I actually used moonclips I used to think what a hassle they must be, but after this conversion, I started to realize how awkward speed-loaders are and didn't want to use them anymore - an epiphany. The loaded moonclips just slip in so easily and spent cases all eject at once. I'm considering having this done to my other revolvers.

Ed

Redhawk1
April 4, 2008, 08:30 AM
That's why they make a de-mooner

20nickels
April 4, 2008, 10:09 PM
Redhawk1, You may have answered a question for me that I've been after for some time now. Can you use 45 Win mag loaded to medium high pressures without the moonclips setting back and binding up the cylinder? BTW what clips are you using?

Redhawk1
April 5, 2008, 07:51 AM
20nickels
I am using Stainless steel moon clips, the are harder than most moon clips and don't bent as easy. But I also used the S&W moon clips without them getting all bent up and binding up the cylinder with the 45 Win Mag.

The 45 Win Mags I use, are loaded to the higher end of the load data. The case's in the moon clip fall right out of the cylinder. If the modification is done right the moon clips will never bend.

simpleguy
April 5, 2008, 05:50 PM
You guys are awesome!

When I wrote this I did it assuming it could not and has not been done. I also we asking because the older I get the more I like a versatile firearm. Ammo can get scarce whether due to location, price or politics.

I was looking to get something along the lines of a .454, .45colt, .45ACP Double action wheel gun and a .454, .45colt lever gun.

hghunter
April 7, 2008, 05:04 AM
S & W made revolvers for the .45 auto rim cartridge, the mod. 1955 Target is one. You could use .45 ACP rounds in it with half moon clips. I'm not sure why manufacturers quit making that cartridge. I looked for some the other day and they said that it hadn't been made in years.

Too much handloading I guess. I gotta come up for air once in a while.

tipoc
April 7, 2008, 08:03 AM
Simple Guy,
You haven't said what gun you have in 454 Casull.

tipoc

simpleguy
April 9, 2008, 04:33 PM
Sorry for the late reply. I was considering a Ruger Alaskan.

Markbo
April 9, 2008, 05:04 PM
Just tell Ruger you need a .45 ACP cylinder for your gun and they will sell you one. All problems solved. Hell they have made .45 Colt/.45 ACP convertibles for years.... this isn't a new idea. I don't know if they will do it for a SRH, but they do it for BH's all the time. If they won't, contact me and I will recommend a gunsmith who will make you one.

Forget moon clips and all that pain the ars stuff... the ACP fit right in their own cylinder and rest on their case mouth, just like in a 1911 chamber. Accuracy can be surprisingly good too!

Redhawk1
April 9, 2008, 05:07 PM
Markbo, but will he still be able to shoot 454 Casull, 45 Colt....45ACP and 45 Win Mags??? I don't think so.

Eightball
April 9, 2008, 05:08 PM
It would be possible to have an extra cylinder fitted in .45 ACP in a Single-Action gun.Not to completely sidetrack the thread....but I saw pics of a Single action .45ACP revolver, and it didn't exactly look like he had a moon-clippish device....so how would a .45ACP work in a single-action? I think I missed something.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
April 9, 2008, 05:16 PM
Possible? Yes.
Advisable? No!

The .454 runs 65,000 PSI pressure. More then most bolt-action Magnum rifles.

Anything you do to the cylinder to compromise full case head support would run a very high risk of blowing your hand off if a case let go.

It would be possible to have an extra cylinder fitted in .45 ACP in a Single-Action gun.

But it would get very expensive to do it with a Double Action gun.

Exactly. Plus, remember that even if possible, an equally important concern (extremely important) is this: .454 casull, being very high pressure, has little to no margin for error. If you shoot EITHER .45 colt or .45 acp, or anything with a shortened case, with more than just a few rounds, you will build up a residue ring in the front of the chambers. Then, when you go back to shooting full house .454s, this residue ring can pinch or crimp the case at the front of the chamber, which will temporarily (for a split second), hold the bullet in the case longer than it should (even though measured in milliseconds, on a relative scale, this holds the bullet in MUCH longer than it should). Until the bullet releases and begins its trip into the forcing cone, the already high pressures could spike dramatically, causing catastrophic failure. I wouldn't say DON'T use .45 colts - I'd say use them with extreme caution, thoroughly cleaning each and every cylinder after a .45 colt session, to preven the ring from building up. My opinion is that this is a much greater concern than the general revolver-shooting public realizes. They think that since .38 special to .357 mag is ok, that this is ok, too. Apples and oranges. Yes the .357 is high pressure, but not nearly as high as .454 casull (35K cup vs. 60K cup). Your best best bet, if you want to shoot a bunch of .45 colt level loads, is to buy .454 casull dies, and simply load the cases with standard (cowboy) .45 colt, or "+P" .45 colt loads. Good luck and stay safe!

Redhawk1
April 9, 2008, 06:52 PM
PremiumSauces and rcmodel, How can you give a bunch of advice without actually having any experience with this conversion.

Now I have had my 454 Casull conversion for over 6 years now, I shoot 45 ACP in moon clips, I shoot 45 Win Mags in moon clips, I shoot 45 Colts and 454 Casull's all in the same day. Not just a few, I am talking about 50 to 100 of each.

How can you two make such clams, are you guys gunsmiths? Have either of you any actual experience with such a conversion? If not what qualifies you to make such clams?

Hokkmike
April 9, 2008, 06:55 PM
The .454 runs 65,000 PSI pressure. More then most bolt-action Magnum rifles.

Puma (Rossi) makes a lever action for this caliber.

Don't most 270's run around this pressure as well?

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
April 10, 2008, 12:32 AM
How can you two make such clams, are you guys gunsmiths?

No. Amateur gunsmith, but no, not really.

Have either of you any actual experience with such a conversion?

No

If not what qualifies you to make such claims?
Nothing really, other than reading a lot and talking with a lot of gunny people. So I could very well be wrong. But I'm still sure as heck not standing within 3 lanes of you at the range. Do you clean the cylinders regularly and thoroughly? That might explain the lack of kb (as I stated above). If not, then I would stand (or sit) corrected by your experience.

Redhawk1
April 10, 2008, 07:21 AM
I clean all my guns after each range secession. But if I am shooting my converted 454 Casull, I don't clean the cylinders after shooting 45 ACP's and then my 454 Casull's in the same range secession.

If you look at the cylinder after the modification you would see how little material is removed from the actual cylinder, the extractor is thinners also, but that plays no role in the integrity of the cylinder.

edrice
April 10, 2008, 03:30 PM
If you look at the cylinder after the modification you would see how little material is removed from the actual cylinder, the extractor is thinners also, but that plays no role in the integrity of the cylinder.

Yeah, this was something I wondered about before having my .45 Colt 625 converted to use moonclips. But after looking at a .45 Colt cartridge seated in the cylinder, you see just how small the gap is and this is part where the casehead is thicker anyway. It seems if the case integrity were really an issue, then you'd probably have a problem even without the conversion.

Ed

Redhawk1
April 10, 2008, 07:11 PM
I am more than sure the custom gunsmiths did there home work before doing such a conversion.

I trust mine 100%

Markbo
April 13, 2008, 11:04 AM
Markbo, but will he still be able to shoot 454 Casull, 45 Colt....45ACP and 45 Win Mags??? I don't think so.


Well the OP never asked about the .45 Win mag. That could still be done in the existing .454 cylinder anyway. The .45 ACP cylinder is a standard edition to .45's for cheap, accurate ammo - expecially for those that don't reload.

I think that you could typicall expect better accuracy with a dedicated ACP cylinder. Keep in mind I am referring specifically to Ruger's and not S&W's.

However... I see no need personally to shoot the .45 WinMag OR the .45ACP in a Casull chambered gun when all you have to do is download the .454 or the .45 Colt. Personally... and this is purely personal choice... I don't like moon clips. They are just a hassle to mess with.

Redhawk1
April 13, 2008, 03:31 PM
Markbo, just because you personally don't like the moon clips or the thought of shooting 45 ACP's or 45 Win Mags in a 454 Casull, what does that have to do with the subject at hand? . Also as far as the 45 Win Mag and the OP, sure he was not asking, but it is nice if someone else knows about it and can elaborate about it. I was just giving my actual experience not what I think or my opinion.
What actual experiences do you have with such a conversion?

Markbo
April 14, 2008, 09:26 AM
What does it have to do with the subject at hand? Did you even read my post? My post was giving the OP some information he may not have had that there is an alternative - exactly the same thing you did.

Do you think you are the only member here that has any experience? You are certainly good at posting your opinion, then calling someone else out if they have a different opinion than you, I'll give you that. :rolleyes:

I have experience with all the calibers mentioned and a lot more, I have over a dozen Ruger big bores and other brands as well - including 5 Redhawks. I have been shooting handguns for over 35 years, I am a handloader and wildcatter. I not only shoot wildcats, I have developed my own from scratch. I have taken big game and small game with handguns. I own and regularly shoot a handgun that will handle the vaunted .454 as a reduced load.

My carry in the field gun is a 4.5" .475 Linebaugh and the .44 mag is about the minimum caliber that holds my interest - except for the .32 H&R which I am quite sticken with. I own a Ruger conversion and it is quite accurate with both rounds and I personally find it much easier, handier and faster to simply discharge and reload one chamber at a time - in a single action of course. It is obvious that you are a moon clip fan, but I have owned and shot revolvers with moon clips and find them to be a bit of a pain and I tend to focus on rounds that were developed for revolvers so that they aren't ever needed.

Mostly because there is no round that requires moon clips who's ballistics cannot be duplicated with a comensurate rimmed straight walled pistol cartridge. If you are a big fan, that is just great... I'm happy for you. I don't happen to be.

Now are you satisfied that I have the experience necessary to post in the same thread as you?

Redhawk1
April 14, 2008, 03:40 PM
No I am not satisfied, DO YOU HAVE EXPEANCE WITH THE MOON CLIP CONVERSION?

I don't care if you have experience with all the different rounds, only the conversion as the original poster asked about.
I am really not a big moon clip fan, I just happen to have a conversion the poster asked about.

My problem with your post is, not that it differs from my experience, but why post about a moon clip conversion when you have no actual experience with the conversion and cylinder modification needed to accept moon clips, and then post how you dislike moon clips. I did not see where the original poster asks for opinions on this subject, but if it could be done. Your first post was how Ruger has the 2 different cylinders, nothing to do with moon clips, except that you don't like them. So what help did your post do?

So lets try to stay on topic here..

Markbo
April 14, 2008, 03:57 PM
I don't care if you have experience with all the different rounds, only the conversion as the original poster asked about. I am really not a big moon clip fan,

I really don't care what you want. My posts were given to the OP. If you don't like my opinions, feel free to ignore them since as far as I know, you are not the thread police.

...sure he was not asking, but it is nice if someone else knows about it and can elaborate about it

So only you are allowed to do that? :scrutiny:

I believe that my opinion that moon clips are not needed to enjoy shooting the gun and that they are a pain in the butt IS germaine to the OP's inquiry. And I'm sorry... have we met? How do you know what my experience is or is not?

I never said I was not familiar with the alteration of a cylinder to accept moon clips. He never mentioned whether he has ever used a revolver with moon clips as you have and as I have so it might actually be good information to offer someone inquiring about a potentially expensive conversion.

You don't know whether the information is useful to the OP or not but want to chastise me to stay on topic after your above statement?

Whatever dood :rolleyes:

Simple Guy... I hope my experience is of some value to you.

Redhawk1
April 14, 2008, 04:09 PM
OK get your panties out of a wad there dude....:D

Just trying to let you know, what the topic was about. If you want to start a new thread about how you hate the moon clips, be my guest.

Now have a nice day...:neener:

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