[USMCDK]

Hey guys I hope that this isn't a stir the pot kinda thing, but I haven't seen it posted yet.

I finally went to wikipedia to find out what a .45cal converts to in (mm) and came to find out that it's actually 11.43mm and the .44cal converts to 10.9mm.

So here's a question that I think will keep our minds occupied...

Which one would be safer to call it the 11mm round???

I am just curious as to what you guys think. I hope that this isn't a trollish question. :banghead:

[Jim Watson]

You got a USMC sig line and you want to translate calibers to French?

Most of the European calibers in the 11mm range are closer to .44, if you just must.

[RobertFBurnett]

1) Assuming the mentions to the Marines translate into you actually had been active duty, or currently are. Thank you for your service.

2) Mr. Watson...where did you see French in the post? Most of the known world uses the metric system, not just the French...but If I missed it nevermind. ;) I like your Signature.

3) I'm bad at Math so I will arbitrarily say that when Jeff Coopers .46 Cal gets invented we'll just jump right to 12mm. :)

4) Arbitrarily choosing, I vote .45

Peace,

RFB

P.S. Not trollish...probably something I woulda thought up eventually.

[Wheeler44]

Hey everybody the "metric system" was officially adopted by the US a long, long time ago.. for what it's worth only the military uses it as far as I know... oh and me, I am an estimator that bids .mil work so I gotta know it.

[Jim Watson]

The French devised the metric system in the late 18th century and flummoxed most of the world into using it. It has been legal for trade here since 1866. If it hasn't caught on in 140 years it can't amount to much. We don't use it in daily applications, and are the only remaining superpower. Coincidence? I think not.

Now, back to the O.P.
There are several European revolver cartridges of metric designation at or near 11mm that are usually described as "comparable to .44 Russian." There are a number of European late black powder rifle cartridges with metric designation at or near 11mm that are commonly referred to here as .43 calibers, like .43 Spanish and .43 Egyptian. And since the modern .44 calibers actually measure more nearly .43", I consider that equivalent, too.

However, the few metricated users of the .45 ACP variously list it as 11.25mm (bore diameter) [Argentina] and 11.43mm (groove diameter) [Norway.]

So I guess you can have it either way, but I prefer the more historical equivalents and read .44 for 11mm. And just don't think about a 12mm at all.

[novaDAK]

Remember if you do the mathematical conversion, .44 is actually .429" ;)

[USMCDK]

the convertion ratio or should I say variable is 25.4

for example

.45cal x 25.4 = 11.43mm

.44cal x 25.4 = 11.176mm (round up 11.18mm)

.40cal x 25.4 = 10.16mm

.38cal x 25.4 = 9.652mm (round down 9.65mm)

9mm (divide) 25.4 = .3543307 (Round up .354cal)

I hope that this helps.

BTW Robert I am former active duty of 4yrs and 2yrs inactvie reserve (Honorable Discharge) and now serve in the US Army National Guard (Don't ask)

[Silvanus]

Well, if the .44 is 10.9mm then that would be closer to 11mm than the .45.

But why do you care? Nobody calls them that. Not even here in Europe.

[Erik]

Except that as noted the ".44" isn't, and neither is the ".38."

[tipoc]

Jim,

If I remember correctly the U.S. is one of 5 or 6 nations that don't use the metric system. Liberia and Burma are two of them, along with a couple of Carribbean nations and I think American Samoa. It is uneven in England and some of the old British Empire (inspite of official adoption). But pretty much is used by the rest of the world.

tipoc

[Jackal]

Call me crazy, but I prefer the metric system. I have done a lot of work on import motocycles and the metric hardware/measurements are just easier to use. Think about it this way. When wrench sizes are labeled in a linear fashion, such as 10mm, 12mm,14mm, etc, its easier to differentiate the sizes. I personally have a hard time with our standard measuements. I just can never remember whats bigger, a 3/8 or 7/16.

[Cromlech]

The French devised the metric system in the late 18th century and flummoxed most of the world into using it. It has been legal for trade here since 1866. If it hasn't caught on in 140 years it can't amount to much. We don't use it in daily applications, and are the only remaining superpower. Coincidence? I think not. I LOL'd.
Any-who, it's fair to say that 10.9 is closer to 11 than 11.43 is.

[oneiron]

One on line encyclopedias Says the 44 Russian is .432". Therefore it is 10/97mm. I like that round . I fire .431 bullets in my 44 Special.

[3pairs12]

jackal 7/16" is bigger.

[highorder]

OK. If you are referring to the .44 Remington Magnum, and the .45acp, the actual bullet diameters are .429" and .452", respectively. If you want a metric conversion of these dimensions, they are 10.8966mm and 11.4808mm respectively.

If you are trying to derive a metric designation for either of these rounds, your time is better spent trying to compare European and American cartridge developments in the 20th century... or something else.

Nobody calls them that. Not even here in Europe.

[USMCDK]

OK. If you are referring to the .44 Remington Magnum, and the .45acp, the actual bullet diameters are .429" and .452", respectively.

First I will say I always love reading something that you post to my threads highorder. Ever time you do it's almost like we are presidential candidates debating some kinda political issue and it makes me laugh.

Okay so here it goes

Second I have to ask/debate... how is the .44 a .429??? I am so darn lost over this. pm me and please explain or we can debate this here as well, it's not like it's off topic in this thread.

Third... Well there is no third I just wanted to say it :neener:

much respects guys and gals

USMCDK

[highorder]

The first thing you need to make peace with is the fact that actual bullet diameter has nothing to do with cartridge designation. It is a wonderfully complex subject, subject of many books dating back a few hundred years.

I don't see a comparison to a presidential debate. I see a French ex-Marine who works for Sig-Sauer in New Hampshire who has a knack for posting off the wall thoughts. I'm just trying to tie up the loose ends for the sake of continuity. :)

Buy this book and read it. If you're like me, it will soon be dog-eared from being constantly thumbed thru when a question comes up. A new edition is published every 3 years or so; I donate my old editions to friends who have questions like the one you posed in this thread.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Cartridges-of-the-World/Frank-C-Barnes/e/9780896892972

knowledge is power.

highorder~

[9mmepiphany]

a bullet of a .44 spl or .44 mag cartridge is a .429" bullet...just as the .38spl cartridge has a .357" bullet (that's how the .357 mag is a lenghtened .38spl)

to really confuse you, the .38-40 uses a 10mm bullet (.40")...but the "40" in it's designation doesn't refer to the calibre, it refers to the original loading of 40 grains of black powder

[oneiron]

9mmepiphany
just because you buy .429 bullets to shoot in your .44 does not mean that the bore specs for .44 is .429. In fact the cartridge wa designed to not conflict with the 44-40 which is .429 or the 44 American or several other .44's. Please do some research.
Can you shoot the .429 bullet in a .44 special, yes, but that does not make it a .429. The fact that I shoot .431 bullets in my .44 Special does not make it a .431 because it is a .432 by design. Check with Smith & Wesson they designed the cartridge.

[rcmodel]

Quibbling aside.
The fact remains that it is way closer to .429" then it is to .440"

Just as the .38 Spl. is way closer to .357" then it is to .380"

rcmodel

[USMCDK]

knowledge is power.

highorder~


So true and thank you for tying up the loose ends for me, I need people like that in my life, it helps alot.

BTW guys I didn't know that the bullet itself was not the actual measured item, you are tell me that the measurement specified is actually the casing???

[highorder]

Thanks for the kind words. Some people react differently to being swept up after...

you are tell me that the measurement specified is actually the casing???

not quite.

While bullets are measured; it is more accurate to say that the bore diameter of the barrel is measured.

Look at it this way: The .44 Remington Magnum is the "title" of a movie starring a .429" bullet. The cartridge name is one thing, the actual dimensions of the components involved are in the details. Like I suggested, get your hands on a copy of Cartridges of the World and read it thoroughly. Many of the answers you seek are in there, including the ins and outs of cartridge designation.

[USMCDK]

I live right near B&N in Manchester so I will go there and find that book and simmer through it. Thank you highorder and you are welcome for the kind words.

Like I said before I am the type of guy that TRYS to understnad where someone else is coming from.

[Jim Watson]

BTW guys I didn't know that the bullet itself was not the actual measured item,

Oh. We have more than just metric vs English here.
As said, get a copy of Cartridges of the World. It is what a researcher would call a tertiary source and is not 100% complete, but it is a good start.
Main thing to realize is not that there is not a system for cartridge nomenclature, it is that there are several and you have to know what you are looking at. Plus complications introduced by the advertising agencies making stuff up.
For example, the .218 Bee, .219 Zipper, .220 Swift, .221 Fireball, .222 Remington, .223 Remington, .224 Weatherby, and .225 Winchester ALL shoot .224" diameter bullets.
So does the .22 Varminter. But not the .22 Hi-Power.

[MaterDei]

Next thing you know we'll be converting grains into milligrams or worse, stone. :D

[Jim Watson]

Just remember, a pound of feathers is heavier than a pound of gold.

[highorder]

and there are 231 cubic inches in a gallon.

[Sistema1927]

In the metric world, the .45 ACP is an 11.25mm.

That is what the Argentines stamped on the side of my trusty Sistema 1927 so it has to be correct.

[Jim Watson]

Thomas Jefferson had it all figured out in 1790. He had proposed the decimal money we still use and had come up with two levels of weights and measures. The first was only slightly different from the English system due to defining everything from the length of a one-second rod pendulum; which is 58.7+ English inches.

The second proposal was strictly decimal, with the foot being 1/5 the length of the pendulum, then divided into 10 inches, 10 lines to the inch, 10 points to the line. Going up, 10 feet to the decad, 10 decads to the rood, 10 roods to the furlong, 10 furlongs to the mile. The mile comes out 10,000 decimal feet, nearly twice as long as the English statute mile. The names sound strange only because they were from the old system and no longer much used.
An ounce was defined as the weight of one cubic decimal inch of rainwater, much as the froggies had defined the gramme as the weight of one cubic centimetre of water.
Weights and measures all going in multiples of 10 from that.

A dollar was to be 11/12 decimal ounces of silver, with standard coins being 11/12 silver alloy to make the silver dollar come out an even decimal ounce. I do wonder why he chose 11/12. Coin silver is now considered to be .900 fine, which would fit the decimal system.

[USMCDK]

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

What??? I'm lost!!!

Seriously though this is all very interesting and I have yet to buy that book highorder, I am living paycheck to paycheck at this moment so it's going to be a while, but I will and read it I shall.

[tipoc]

Well you're confused because it's a confusing subject when first approached.

The metric designation of cartridges has the advantage of being consistent. 9x19 for example refers to the diameter of the bullet, 9mm in this case, and the length of the bullet 19mm. The old Soviet round the 7.62x39mm is the same thing. An exception is the 8mm Mauser which is actually 7.9x57mm. But most are very consistent as most used the metric system for a very long time.

Not so the British and American system. We call some rounds by some names because they are older or come from the days of the flintlock musket. Some rounds like the old 38-55 are named because it was a 38 caliber round over 55 grs. of black powder.

One company 150 years ago might have measured the diameter of the bullet while another measured the bore in the grooves and rounded the number so it sounded better. Some rounds are called what they are called because the marketing depts. of some firms thought the names sounded better.

So for example...

The 38 S&W round was introduced in 1877. Colt had the same round and called it the 38 Colt New Police. The diameter of the bullet was .359 thousandths of an inch. The measurement of the bore of the gun barrel between the grooves was likely .379 and they rounded it up to .38 because to someone it sounded better. The British had the same round with a heavier bullet and called it the 38/200 meaning a 38 caliber round with a 200 gr. bullet. This round, the .38 S&W was the daddy of the .38 Spl.

The .38 Spl. followed the .38 S&W but it had a bullet diameter of .357 but for marketing reasons was still called a 38. .357 would have been the same measurement of the bore between the lands, not the grooves.

The .357 Magnum came later and has the same .357 bullet as the .38 Spl. But marketing thought it sounded better as the .357 Magnum rather than the .38 Magnum.

The 9mm has a bullet diameter of .355.

The .380 acp has a dimeter of .356

The .38 Super has a nominal diameter of .358 but is often loaded with a 9mm bullet.

The old 38-40 round had a diameter of .372 but was a true 38 caliber bullet and called the 38-40 because it was loaded over 40 gr.s of black powder.

It is confusing. So USMCDK it'll cost you nothing to drop by Wikipedia and do a search there under "caliber" and see what it has to say.

tipoc

[USMCDK]

Gears... starting... to... turn... again.

Okay there we go I am good again. I just had to :banghead: for a second and read your post tipoc.

Thank you.

[BlindJustice]

.50 cal. = 12.7mm

what else do you need? (.45/.50) * 12.7

[USMCDK]

That would be correct BlindJustice, now what is the exact measurement of the bullet itself? Does anyone here have that answer??? I bet someone here is going to say that it's something like .492:uhoh:.487 (just random numbers that I through out there...

[highorder]

actually, its .510 :)

[BlindJustice]

FYI - the Norwegians built a 1911 under license and it is
called the 1914 cal. 11.4 x something collectors guns.
I don't recall if the cartridge was modified in detail.

I measured my 625 5" Bbl. and from muzzle to forcing cone
it is voila 127 MM.

Oh, btw a year or two MLB tried putting up the distance to the
Left field and right field foul poles in meters below the
number of feet. THey did away with it because nobody could
relate to the meter amount.

I have a friend who has modern EUro and Japanese bikes,
some old harley parts are feetinches, but the biggest PITA he
runs into are his 1950s and older English bikes which have
whitworth nuts and bolts and that is another world of it's own.

[Jim Watson]

English bikes which have whitworth nuts and bolts and that is another world

I remember Dick O'Kane, automotive magazine humorist, saying that old Volvos were tough to work on, you had to have three sets of tools, inch, metric, and Whitworth.


CAUTION, USMCDK & Co, Tipoc has some fiction here. Just for a quick one, the .38 S&W cartridge has nothing to do with the development of the .38 Special.

[tipoc]

CAUTION, USMCDK & Co, Tipoc has some fiction here. Just for a quick one, the .38 S&W cartridge has nothing to do with the development of the .38 Special.

I assume what you are referring to here Jim is that there is not direct relationship between the .38 S&W, .38 Colt, etc and the .38 Spl. in the way that there is between the 38 Spl. and the .357. To make the .357 they lengthened the case of the .38 Spl. in the case of the various .38 loads that predated the .38 Spl. the relationship is less direct but it is there.

There were several 38 caliber rounds available and used by the police and military prior to the development of the .38 Spl. S&W introduced the .38 Spl. in 1909 to compete and better Colt's 38 rounds. It won out. So yep there is a relationship, an evolution, if you will.

tipoc

[USMCDK]

+1 Tipoc :neener: LoL!!!

[dagger dog]

If you call the.223 a 5.56 or the .308 a 7.62 then just call th.45 the 11.43 and the 44 a10.90

Call 'em like you see 'em. But the closest to the 11mm is the .44 at 10.90mm

[USMCDK]

yeah how bout them apples???

+1 dagger dog

Good boy... now go fetch. LoL I'm sorry I couldn't resist the temptation and I am in a good mood. So I tend to playfully dog on people. NO PUN INTENDED!!!

[Jim Watson]

As I recall the history, S&W introduced the .38 S&W in 1876 to bring the inside lubricated groove diameter bullet into the medium calibers as they had already done with the big .44 S&W Russian and would soon do with the little .32 S&W.

In the meanwhile, Colt had been making .38 Central Fire conversions on percussion revolvers since about 1873. This round matured into the .38 Long Colt when Colt started making the Single Action Army in calibers other than .45 and in the Colt Lightning double action. It had an outside lubed heel type bullet of about .379" diameter from when it originated to be shot in a .36 percussion conversion with a groove diameter of .376" or so. It was still made that way when in 1889 the Navy adopted a .38 double action revolver to replace the .45 single actions. The Army, as was usual in those days, was playing catchup and did not "modernize" until 1892. The round was then known as .38 Government, but not distinguishable from .38 Long Colt except by military headstamps.

In 1899 S&W wanted a piece of the action, probably because their lucrative overseas contracts were winding down, and offered the .38 Military and Police, caliber .38 S&W Special. It was "special" because it had 8 grains more lead, 3 grains more (black) powder, and the S&W inside lubricated bullet. But the guns still had to handle the .38 Long Colt/Government cartridge, so the case diameter remained the same but the bullet was smaller. Case diameter was and is about .379" and a bullet to fit inside the brass with inside lubrication turned out to be .358". They could not work from the .38 S&W because it had a .384" case diameter and a .361" bullet. The soft lead .38 Colt bullet would squeeze down in the Special barrel with no problems.

When smokeless powder came in shortly after that, S&W made the change in the .38 S&W and .38 S&W Special with no trouble. Colt tried to modernize by offering .38 Long Colt with an inside lubricated hollowbase bullet that would expand to fit the big old Colt barrels.

Colt eventually gave up (before WW I) and brought out guns for the .38 Colt Police Positive, .38 Colt New Police, and .38 Colt Special to replace the .38 Long (and short) Colt chamberings. The Police Positive and New Police were the same as the .38 S&W and the Colt Special the same as the S&W Special except for box labeling and a flatpointed bullet shape.

So with all that shaggy dog story, I conclude that the only connection between the .38 S&W and the .38 Special was the impetus to apply the inside lubricated bullet to a cartridge that would be of interest to the government. But by then, the Philippine Insurrection had already taught the Army that they needed to go back to a .45. So they did but it took them until 1909 to get a new gun, until which time they dug Single Action Army .45s out of storage and bought some 1878 Double Action Frontier .45s to buy them time.

[USMCDK]

:what::what::what::what::what::what:

WOW +100 for doing some serious nerd work I mean home work. LoL. I can't just be silly with only one person, that's discrimination. LoL :neener:

USMCDK

BTW Where did you find out all that information???

[Jim Watson]

I've been reading this stuff since about 1956; as have some of the other codgerposters here.

If my house burned down, I would miss my guns, but I would cry over the loss of books.

[tipoc]

Good work Jim.:)

tipoc

[USMCDK]

I would cry without ol' bean I would cry with you...

[rockstar.esq]

As previously mentioned, the naming conventions sometimes apply to the bullet diameter, the bore diameter, and sometimes by pedigree despite no dimensional link.

Just to add another layer of complexity, the commonly used bullet diameter for a given cartridge will be somewhat larger for a lead bullet as opposed to a jacketed bullet.

If that wasn't frustrating enough, revolvers frequently have a different barrel diameter than their chamber mouths, AND their forcing cone. On a six shot revolver you could take your pick of nine different diameters!

One other point not mentioned thus far is that some guns are referred to their calibers without regard to the bullet diameter. Specifically "30 caliber" rifles. A .308 barrel blank can be chambered for the .308 Winchester, 30-06, 300 win mag, etc, etc.

I much prefer the quasi English method where the bore is considered to be the actual hole drilled in the barrel. And the "caliber" to be the measurement across the rifling at it's greatest diameter.

Hence I load a .308 caliber bullet in a 0.30" bore rifle. If I were to have a .300" bullet, it would/should slide through the barrel unscathed because it isn't large enough to engage the rifling.

Lest this end tidliy I'll point out that bore and gauge are different. A gauge is derived by the number of pure lead spheres (of the bore diameter) that it would take to equal one pound. This is why the numbers are lower for bigger bores and why a .410 is a bore and not a gauge. I'm not for sure on this but I'd guess that a .410 would come to something silly sounding like a 32 gauge.

[USMCDK]

I heard something like that about shotgun ammo...

I have also HEARD that a 12 slug is like the equivalent to a .50 or .62 some wierd $#!t like that???

[Jim Watson]

12 gauge is neighborhood of .729"
For it to shoot a smaller diameter slug, it would have to be in a plastic sabot... as many are these days. But the old Foster and Brenneke slugs are the full .72 caliber.

[USMCDK]

Why thank you "My dear Watson" that is good info to know...

+10

[USMCDK]

I wonder what .72 caliber converts to in (mm) oh wait I have a formula for that answer

.72 x 25.4 = 18.288mm

[Jim Watson]

Which is why you will often see a mystery 18 in the proof marks of a foreign 12 gauge. 17 on a 16 gauge.

[USMCDK]

AH that would explain it. Thank you "My dear Watson"