What is the general feeling on AK's that shoot the .223 Remington round? Cheaper to shoot? Yes. Less stopping power? Yes. Is there trade off worth it? Even though I have a 12 ga for HD and SKS in 7.62x39 for longer ranges I do not plan on using the AK for HD, but for a bigger plinker than the .22LR is the .223 AK a good choice?
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April 3, 2008, 11:53 PM
I have 3 calibers of AKs, 7.62, 5.45 and 5.56. I like them all and if you have your heart set on a 5.56 then by all means get one preferably a bulgarian one. The SAR3s can be good but they are a work in progress. If you get a SAR3, get the STG90 mags or have a quality gunsmith work on the magwell so you can use the bulgarian .223 mags which are a bit more plentiful. Also get a red star arms hammer for the SAR3.
For a plinker? No. Ammo is just too expensive. Go with 5.45 or 7.62x39 instead.
5.56 AK's aren't half bad though. I have found them to be fairly accurate. I have a SAR3 and a Saiga 223 and they both will shoot 2.5 MOA with a warm barrel and mediocre ammo.
April 4, 2008, 12:06 AM
Converted .223 Saiga. (premade or DYI)
Easily the best $$$ spent on a .223 AK platform.
April 4, 2008, 12:07 AM
I've got an SAR3 (.223) that's a great rifle. Extremely controllable to shoot, comfortable, perfectly reliable. Mine has had a few upgrades (RedStar hammer and trigger, AKUSA AK74 style brake, side folder). I use Weiger mags in it exclusively and they have worked very well.
It'll Honest-To-God do 2 MOA with wolf if you do your part. I know it's hard to believe, and this is the internet, so believe it if you want to. But I'd put this gun up against an AR out to 400 yards with good ammo.
April 4, 2008, 12:32 AM
I have a saiga in 223 , and it rocks... very accurate.
April 4, 2008, 12:37 AM
It'll Honest-To-God do 2 MOA with wolf if you do your part.
How many rounds in the group? Also, is this every group or once or twice a range session?
This thread from AR15.com (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=279218) contains a great discussion of why three round groups are not a good way to consistently measure accuracy.
In the past, I've made the mistake of talking about accuracy in terms of my best three shot groups instead of my average 5 or 10 shot groups. Now that I am a little more appreciative of how to better measure the potential accuracy of my rifle and I, I have to say that I am extremely skeptical that Wolf ammo, which in my experience is 5-6moa from custom rifles with match barrels, suddenly manages to tighten up in a factory AK. To use just one example, factory ammo that was 1-2MOA from my 1:9 Bushmaster when I limited myself to three round groups, suddenly became 3-4MOA ammo from a 1:8 stainless match barrel when I started using 10 round groups.
However, I am in Texas and I would definitely drive to see an AK that shoots .223 Wolf ammo into 2MOA if you've got one. You'll cover my gas costs if it doesn't turn out to produce 10-round 2MOA groups that day right? ;)
April 4, 2008, 12:40 AM
My Saiga in 223 is NOT a 2MOA rifle. :) But it is a solid 3MOA rifle (five shot groups, repeatedly) with commercial 223 ammo, and I am very fond of it.
I last time I was out a casually shot a group that measured a good 3.4 or so on the MOA scale. I was using an old chair we had in a deer stand for years as a rest while sitting in another chair. I shot to see if the scope was still centered right. It was.
I don't know what it is with certain Wolf ammo. It wont group Monarch for anything, but this one batch of wolf seems exceptional in this rifle.
I usually used 4 round groups. And even it it started to spread out a little after 10 or so rounds if we actually tested the rifle for bench-accuracy (Which is not why I built the gun), it's still quite a feat for an AK platform.
April 4, 2008, 12:42 AM
I've never had good results with Wolf myself, although the case of Barnaul I bought a few years ago seemed to be halfway decent stuff. Right now I'm shooting Radway Green, but due to ammo prices and availability I don't shoot much of it. I get 2.5" 10 shot groups with that from a scoped Saiga.
April 4, 2008, 12:43 AM
I have a .223 saiga on order right now. It was $260 plus $10 for shipping and $17.50 for the transfer. I think the conversion will run me $150 bucks or so but I have a feeling it is going to be a very good gun for under $450. I need to get it and shoot it before I can give a real recommendation but after A LOT of research I was concvinced to buy one.
As for ammo 7.62 is cheaper everywhere I have seen. It is the cheaper plinker.
I debated whether to get a .223 or 7.62 for a long time and had things I liked about each. I had a hard time deciding so I did the only logical thing and just got both. Both came in at under $600. Given what AKs are selling for right now I think that is a very good deal.
April 4, 2008, 12:48 AM
+1 for saiga. I'm gonna get one in the 7.62*39 version and convert it using the kit on the saiga forum.
April 4, 2008, 01:57 AM
I like mine, it's low recoil and digested any .223 I've put into it...
I figured we'll have .223/5.56 around for some time, and it is a rifle everyone in the family can use.
April 4, 2008, 04:21 AM
+1 on the Saiga .223,love mine...got it converted 922r compliant...thinking about buying another one.
can you post addresses/links/prices for the cheaperest used east german steel Weiger 223/5.56 mags currently available? don't need NEW eye-candy, other than function aesthetics not an issue. currently anxiously awaiting an inter-ord 2003C.
have heard good and bad reports on the OEM issued promag syntheticals...any feedback there? heckuva lot cheaper IF they do work!
April 4, 2008, 02:05 PM
I use slightly modified Galil Orlite mags in my Saiga, couldn't you simply grind down the shoulder on those and have them fit in those SARs?
April 4, 2008, 02:13 PM
can you post addresses/links/prices for the cheaperest used east german steel Weiger 223/5.56 mags currently availableSure thing: Romanian Weiger knockoffs: http://centuryarms.biz/proddetail.asp?prod=MA1043
East German Weigers: http://centuryarms.biz/proddetail.asp?prod=MA1050
I use slightly modified Galil Orlite mags in my Saiga, couldn't you simply grind down the shoulder on those and have them fit in those SARs? DH, the very dimensions that let the Galil orlites work in Saigas w/o any major mods is the same thing that keeps them from working in actual Kalashnikovs. Remember, the Saigas are made NOT to work with any Kalashnikov stuff and the Galil is two generations removed from Mikhails standard.
April 4, 2008, 02:41 PM
Ah, I see.
Well then I guess I'm lucky.
April 4, 2008, 02:41 PM
Cheaper to shoot? Yes.
No. Comparing brass to brass and steel to steel, factory 7.62x39 is cheaper than .223.
However, reloadable .223 brass is cheaper than x39. Both take around 25gr of powder (give or take, depending on powder and bullet), and use different size primers. Much more variety of .224 bullets versus .310-.311 bullets.
.223 AK mags are also more expensive than x39 mags. More and cheaper x39 parts available too (brakes, bolts, barrels, etc.).
Less stopping power? Yes.
Very debatable. A heavier bullet doesn't mean it has more "stopping power." Bullet wounds from true M193 ammo are very nasty. Expansion of current Russian soft point ammo is sketchy and Russian ammo as a whole is not nearly as accurate (platform not withstanding). There's a bit less recoil in .223 compared to x39 as well so you also get quicker follow up shots.
Even though I have a 12 ga for HD and SKS in 7.62x39 for longer ranges I do not plan on using the AK for HD
This thread debunks most shotgun-for-HD myths: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=368751. They concentrate on the AR, but many defense rifles meet the criteria.
for a bigger plinker than the .22LR is the .223 AK a good choice?
Plinking with ammo that runs $200-$400+ per case is not the best choice. You'd be better off buying a 10/22 instead.
I have a .223 AR and an x39 AK. Both are nice rifles. The AR is more refined and more accurate. I have considered a .223 AK solely because I reload for both guns and it's easier to have fewer types components and tools on hand.
April 4, 2008, 04:16 PM
In the past, I've made the mistake of talking about accuracy in terms of my best three shot groups instead of my average 5 or 10 shot groups. Now that I am a little more appreciative of how to better measure the potential accuracy of my rifle
Amen brother Bart :cool:
No matter HOW many AK's shoot 1 and 2 MOA in the hands of novice shooters, especially with Wolf. ;)
April 4, 2008, 05:55 PM
I have shot my Saiga and Vepr and 3 and 4 MOA are normally the best groups I get. 3 to 6 is more likely as I have good and bad days.
My best groups on my Vepr have been with Barnaul. I just ordered some Barnaul soft points. The couple boxes I had looked like they were grouping very well while I was adjusting my Kobra sight. I'll have to get back to you.
April 4, 2008, 06:25 PM
thanks for input...
ANY body with WASR/weiger
polymer "promag" brand experience to report?
the galil orlite 35 rounder mags fit VERY snugly in my 5.56 valmet, and needed to be ramped with a found file for both columns to feed 55gr ball well, esp first round from full mag. and the galils are supposed to be mfgd from the same blue prints as the valmets. they even bought the rights from valmet to produce them.
not trynna be a smart ___, but maybe you were lucky? will try them in the 2003C upon arrival, and get back here.
April 4, 2008, 07:22 PM
Galil was adapted by the Israelis from 7.62x39 Finnish rifles, not existing an existing Finnish 5.56mm design. I think 5.56mm Valmets post-date the Galil by a decade or more.
April 4, 2008, 09:28 PM
ANY body with WASR/weiger Both the actual Weigers and the romanian knockoffs work fine in my Sar-3 and WASR-3.
the galil orlite 35 rounder mags fit VERY snugly in my 5.56 valmet As has been pointed out, the Galil descends from the Valmet. I doubt very much the galil mags will fit the stg-2003c, as it uses a standard Kalashnikov receiver.
** with a big enough dremel, and a tube of JB Weld, of course, you can fit the earth to the moon **
April 4, 2008, 09:38 PM
you're right, did a search and the israelis adopted the 5.56 galil from the RK62 design which was 7.62, in 1972. the valmet M76 was the first 5.56 offering. do you have any thoughts as to whether the orlite galil will fit a weiger format rifle?
PS---slow typing, nalioth's posting was up after i submitted mine.
April 4, 2008, 09:59 PM
weiger format rifle The closest your stg-2003c has come to being German is when the marketing peeps at InterOrdnance brainstormed a new way to sell regular old WASRs.
With the exception of the weird handguard attachment method, it is just as much a kalashnikov as any WASR/SAR/Arsenal/etc ( don't drink the marketing kool-aid )
You guys make me jealous!!! I wish I was born 2 years earlier so I wouldn't have to wait!
April 5, 2008, 03:00 AM
lol.. I have to wait two more years unless some laws get fixed here in WA.. my toys are at my friends house now... PS, I'm 32..
April 5, 2008, 05:39 AM
@RedLion - you will be lucky if you can get an ak for 600 bucks in two years.
April 5, 2008, 09:35 AM
i realize whatcher saying is basicly true. just a chrome bore, flash suppressor, and different furniture, ALL SAME-O, except the post importation finish assembly to side step corny weapon laws.
what i'm not clear on is the machining of the mag well interior. tryna cypher out what will/won't work in the modified feed chute.
April 5, 2008, 12:43 PM
Gunnie, the galil mags are made to ride higher in the "modified feed chute" of the Galil. You can make them work in a regular AK, but you'll also weaken the locking tabs on them when you do so (you have to grind a lot off).
Just because you "can make it work" doesn't mean you should:
April 5, 2008, 01:25 PM
dude, that's brutal!!!
thanks for reminding us all that unplanned pregnancy, to unqualified parents, is a FAR greater risk than fire arms ownership will ever be.
seriously, thanx for info,
April 5, 2008, 09:58 PM
Arsenal SA M5, one of the nicest AKs I've had the pleasure to see, and it's all mine: