[Cosmoline]

I recently came across an old Kodiak double and I'm crossing the powder line for the first time in decades. It's .50 cal with a 1 in 24 twist (I believe). That sounds incredibly slow to me but I take it that's actually quite fast for BP slugs. From what I hear these things are picky about what bullets they use. I'm hoping to be able to use conical lead of pretty decent grain weight. First item on the list is to make it fire.

What all do I need? IIRC I'll need some BP substitute in accord with my loads, a ramrod (got it), patches, lube for ramming (have some around somewhere), and primers I mean caps for the thingy. I must be missing something. Bullets, yes.

What steps do I need to take to ensure that firing barrel 1 doesn't unseat the bullet or ball in barrel 2?

Is there a way to seal the load in with a wad of grease? I believe I've seen BP shooters do this with cap and ball revolvers.

If I were to carry it loaded for hunting or whatnot, is there a proper way to do that with primers afixed? Or do you have to fish around for primers when you sight game?

[Serial Fan]

Why a substitute? Use the real stuff, get some GOEX.

1:24 is fast for a muzzleloader. It's intended for conicals. A slower twist for roundballs would be anywhere between 1:48 to 1:70.

[Pancho]

Just curious, what did you have to give for the rifle? I've seen the prices vary wildly. I think the cause of the price variance is due to you've got a lot of work ahead of you but if you keep your head about you and do the work methodically it will be fun and you will achieve accuracy. The fast twist 1/24 as stated before dictates that you will be using conicals maxie balls or minieballs and powerbelts. I would stay away from the minieballs and powerbelts because they load easily and there is a possibility that discharging one barrel could unseat the other.
There are a lot of choices in maxiballs. Just pick one and start shooting. You will have to work up a charge for each type of round and I'd start with about 65 gr. shoot 5 rounds in each barrel and then increase the charge in 5 gr. increments untill you get a grouping to your liking. You probably will be in the 80 to 95 gr. area. Once you get past the load that the gun likes you'll start seeing the groups get larger.You will now have worked up a charge for that powder and bullit in that gun.If you change anything like the type of powder or the round you're going to have to start all over. With most doubles the individual barrels will like the same charge but that's not always true.

[Cosmoline]

So the way to keep them fixed in the bore is to pick slugs that go in hard? That makes sense.

Asking price on this one was $250, it dates to the 1980's. I don't mind working with it. A firearm that works perfectly bores me. I need something to fiddle with.

That grain weight corresponds with what I've been finding. What are "maxiballs"?

[Serial Fan]

Check the hunting regs in your state. Some states allow hunting with a double rifle but with only one barrel loaded at a time, which makes carrying a heavy double around pointless.

[Pancho]

$250 jump on it, if you change your mind let me know I'd be on it in a heart beat.
A maxiball is a generic term for a solid lead conical opposed to a minieball which is a conical with a hollow base.This is an over simplification and I'd go into it further if your interested.
Actually, the sighting in can be a bear with a double rifle and even with the double rear sights there will be a lot of "Kentucky windage".

[Cosmoline]

I snatched it up. It's it good condition considering it's been hunting a lot and dates to the 1980's. The barrels have a little rust on the crown but nothing significant. The fellow left them loaded without telling me (!) so I can't do squat with the thing till I get to the range to empty it. Good thing I tested them with the rod before I messed with it. I've removed the barrels and taped off the nipples. He was using sabots with a Hornady XTP .44 cal inside, but didn't get much better velocity than my Puma carbine with the same exact bullet. If I lug around a 12 lb. double gun I want a bigger bullet than the one I shoot out of my 5 pound carbine LOL I want something HUGE coming out this, like a cannon ball.

I'm going to try out a variety of conicals to see what works best, increasing powder by increments. Should be fun, as long as ignition is reliable and I don't hold up the line. I'd like to try some of the power punch conicals and see how they do. I had thought about the big .72 cal for bear here, but it's restricted to roundballs with their terrible sectional density. Plus nobody had one of those for $250 ;-)

The barrel/stock fitting has gotten loose with use, but nothing I can't fix here with my tools. A few brass shims tacked to the right places should do nicely.

From what I've read here and elsewhere, the trick is finding out what the particular rifle likes. It seems these Kodiaks have been through a lot of design changes over the years so it's hard to apply what works for one to another. I'll figure out what works best and stick with it.

Any idea what kind of primers/caps I can use with this? Someone online said it only takes shotgun primers, but that made no sense to me. What works most reliably?

The factory sights are HORRIFIC. It never ceases to amaze me what awful sights shooters will put up with. Maybe that's why so few people like irons. Per old Elmer's advice on this subject and will ditch the idiotic bead front sight that nobody can see and will get busted off the rifle the first time it smacks hardwood. The rear is basically a flip up buckhorn--another design I find totally useless. I prefer a front sourdough or pyramid with aperture rear or simple square patridge. It looks like the dovetails are in perfect shape and of standard dimensions so I should be able to dig something out for them.

[Cosmoline]

Some pics prior to taking it apart. I've seen "Kodiak" rifles with straight stocks as well, some with no ornamentation and some with much fancier stuff than this. Anyone know what the distinction is between them?

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/Gussick/BigMed2.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/Gussick/BigMed1.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/Gussick/BigMed3.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/Gussick/BigMed4.jpg

[Pancho]

From the pictures it looks like you made a good buy. I do notice that someone has already changed the rear sight. Pedersoli sold the kodiak with two folding sights, one to be dedicated to each barrel. Some kodiak owners didn't like the double sights and removed one.
All double rifles were set up at the factory to have a windage converge. If your not familiar with the term converge it is the point down range where the bullets shot from the left and right barrel would cross. The CVA Express double rifle had a converge of 90 yards. I'm not sure about the kodiak but I think it is 100 yards.
The quality double rifles are extremely expensive,I would even guess that they are the most expensive rifle style;I'm talking $20,000 and way up from there. The reason for this is the skill needed to set up the barrels before welding them together. The old way was to wire the barrels together and shoot and adjust them until they reached the desired converge keeping the same elevation and then weld the barrels together. That kind of skill does not come cheap, Pedersoli thought they could get around this by adding another sight.
In a nutshell your gun will require a lot of getting used to and you will have to sharpen you skills using "Kentucky windage" and "Arkansas" elevation.

[Pancho]

You asked about ignition. The kodiak came with nipples for #11 percussion caps. The #11's work fine but I've changed my rifle over to use musket caps. Musket caps are physically larger and I'm told at least 4 times hotter than #11 caps.
As for projectiles, I would stay away from powerbelts and minie balls both are slightly under bore size for easy loading which means that there is the possibility of unsettling one barrel by shooting the other. The maxiball is hard to start but I've shot them for years and have never had a problem.

[ArmedBear]

Check the hunting regs in your state. Some states allow hunting with a double rifle but with only one barrel loaded at a time, which makes carrying a heavy double around pointless.

Look CLOSELY at the regs, though. My state defines a "loaded" muzzleloader as having powder, projectile AND cap/primer (or priming powder if a flintlock.) Now this is for regular civil law; I'm not sure about F&G law -- that's what you have to look at closely.

There is something to be said for being able to have a followup shot available, as quickly as you can put on another cap.

Of course, for regular firearms season, you can fully load both. And in some states, cap-n-ball revolvers are legal black powder hunting firearms. So look closely.

Regardless, what a cool toy for $250! Good deal.:)

[Pancho]

I was stopped and questioned 10 years ago in muzzleloading deer season by a game warden. He thought I was hunting with a double shotgun. It was easy to convince him that it was a muzzleloader but he wasn't sure about Ohio law concerning double rifles. He had to call his superior and the superior said that Ohio law didn't address it so they gave me a pass. Whew! Since then Ohio has addressed it and they allow it.

[Cosmoline]

Thanks for the tips!

I do notice that someone has already changed the rear sight. Pedersoli sold the kodiak with two folding sights, one to be dedicated to each barrel. Some kodiak owners didn't like the double sights and removed one.

Actually I've got the second sight in my pocket, though I don't plan on using either one.

I'm going to get a mix of maxiballs and sabots to see what shoots best. Not too fixated on getting a perfect coverage for two Franklins. If the barrels hitting consistently within an inch of each other at about 50 or 75 yards I'll be pleased. If I do hunt with this it will be at pretty close range. Balance on the beast is surprisingly good. Someone at least took the time to get that right, and it makes the weight carry pretty nicely balanced on the shoulder.

You asked about ignition. The kodiak came with nipples for #11 percussion caps. The #11's work fine but I've changed my rifle over to use musket caps. Musket caps are physically larger and I'm told at least 4 times hotter than #11 caps.

Do I need to replace parts to use the hotter caps, or can I just use them as is?

[Pancho]

Put those sights in a safe place because they are expensive. I checked with Pedersoli and a set of two is over $125. Remember what I said that Pedersoli had two to avoid having to compromise when sighting in the gun.

[arcticap]

He was using sabots with a Hornady XTP .44 cal inside, but didn't get much better velocity than my Puma carbine with the same exact bullet. If I lug around a 12 lb. double gun I want a bigger bullet than the one I shoot out of my 5 pound carbine LOL I want something HUGE coming out this, like a cannon ball.


There's probably good reasons why the seller was using sabots. They might shoot closer to the point of aim at extended range, they hold tighter in the barrel under recoil and the first shot out of a cold, clean barrel might even be more consistent.
There's some heavy 300 plus grain bullets that can be used with the right size sabots for .50 caliber rifles. The .430 diameter Horandy XTP's are a .44 mag. bullet which require a sabot made for a .430 bullet which is a different size sabot than required for a .45 bullet.

Cabela's sells a heavy weight .50 bullet/sabot combination that might shoot good with your fast barrel twist.

It's lead and weighs 375 grains:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0020974214556a&type=product&cmCat=cchart_blk_pdr_sab_blts

Click on the reviews, it creates a fist sized exit wound at close range!

Plus Cabela's has many 300 grain bullet/sabot combo.'s which can all be seen here:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/compchart/comp-chart.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/index/index-body.jsp.4_A&_DAV=false&backLink=/cabelas/en/templates/index/index-display.jsp%3Fid%3Dcat200005%26navAction%3Djump%26navCount%3D1%26cmCat%3DMainCatcat20712%26parentType%3Dcategory%26parentId%3Dcat20712&chartName=blk_pdr_sab_blts&filterName=.50+Cal.&backTitle=Sabots+%26+Bullets&hasJS=true

[Cosmoline]

Ooo I hadn't seen those buf sabots before. They look excellent. Thanks for the tip!

I checked with Pedersoli and a set of two is over $125.

!! For THESE? That's almost half what I paid for the rifle.

[Pancho]

articap, hands down sabots seem to be more accurate but I've always been paranoid about plastic fouling. I sure would appreciate it if you would make me feel better about shooting sabots in a breech you can't remove. I shoot them in my inlines and really like them but I can see what I'm doing when I'm cleaning it.

[Cosmoline]

What's the danger of plastic fouling?

[scrat]

Wow thats a nice gun

[Cosmoline]

I stripped it down and it's about to get nicer. The lockwork is in surprisingly good shape, though it needs a bit of work on the left trigger mechanism. The wood finish is a real mess and peeling off. Looks like a cheapo poly oil. It will be replaced with linseed oil.

For the first time I'm going to try some very delicate wood files for clearing out the checkering. Hopefully it will work.

[Cosmoline]

That nasty poly finish is GONE now. I've also spruced up the checkering with a little triangular file, though there is more to do. Found a recoil crack in the stock, but it was only part of the way through and I'm fixing it with Gorilla glue since it's totally internal. I've had great luck with this at repairing central stock cracks. It seems to have a nice flex to it even after it sets that keeps it from cracking loose like other epoxys. I fixed an M-39 wrist split with it and it held up even with torture testing.

[arcticap]

What's the danger of plastic fouling?

Some sabots leave a little residue that make it tougher to reload without swabbing after only 2 or 3 shots.
When plastic fouling is combined with the powder fouling of heavy hunting loads, ramming the next sabot can become a bear of a task. Some folks might not realize whether the load is rammed and seated all of the way down on the top of the powder charge or not.
It can happen that way with fouling from shooting with any heavy powder charge though so swabbing often becomes necessary anyway.
Hunting doesn't usually require many reloads, and the double barrel already allows you twice as many shots before swabbing.
Another method is to load with sabots first, and then carry along some conicals or a patched round ball for a quicker reload in the field for follow up shots if necessary. With a fast twist a conical would be better, and a small wood or plastic mallet can be used to help start a tight load along with a short starter.

[Pancho]

As arcticap said, hunting is generally not the problem, target shooting is. A buddy came over to do some serious shooting. I was shooting maxiballs in my sidelock and he was shooting sabots in his inline. He and I would swab after every two rounds with a dish soap water and alcohol mix. After about 20 rounds he got a round stuck hard. We tried everything to get that sabot seated and it just wouldn't. We were shooting just outside of my workshop so we broke the gun down removed the breechplug and powder and chucked the barrel in my bench vice and drove the round out with a 3/8" brass rod and a 2# hammer. looking through the barrel told the tale. The water,soap, alcohol mix was removing the powder fouling but not the plastic. It took brake cleaner and a brass brush to get the barrel back. If you're going to shoot sabouts have a brass brush with you a cloth patch just won't cut it.

[Cosmoline]

Thanks! Another stupid question--what's this swabbing business? Do I need to stick a mop down there every time to keep the next load of powder from going off in my face, a la Elmer Fudd?

[Pancho]

While your shooting a lot of rounds swabbing is preferred. Starting from the first shot the barrel is clean the second shot will beloaded over the fouling of the first shot without swabbing. This method simulates deer hunting conditions. You generally don't have time to swab after the first shot. Mind you the swab is just a cotton patch moistened with mouth spit.

[Pancho]

When we shoot at targets we swab out after every shot or everyother shot. Moisten a pactch in your mouth and with your jag run it through the barrel a couple of times.

[Cosmoline]

After the first weekend's cleanup. Stock repaired, triggers fixed, stock refinished with complete stripdown of poly finish and replacement with BLO, all metal parts given scrubdown and coated in CLP. Now I just need to take her to the range and start shooting! I know it's on the low low end of double guns, but it sure cleaned up nice and I don't know that I'd be too ashamed to take it shooting with the ones costing 20 grand.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/Gussick/Kodnew.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/Gussick/kodnew2.jpg

[4xfourfun]

Looks great. Wish I could find one like that! The hunt is on..... Let us know how it shoots.

[Pancho]

Your Kodiak looks great. You did a fine job, what did you use on the wood.
There is a long jump from the Pedersoli Kodiak to the "you've got to be sh-----g me" next step. Be patient and enjoy.

[Cosmoline]

The new finish is hand-rubbed BLO in my standard milsurp method. I don't like a high shine on the rifles, and I hate the glossy poly based finishes esp. when they start to chip apart as in this case. I ran out of time after three coats but will put some more on to build it up a little. The wood's not great, but it's not bad enough to justify a stain.

I shimmed the barrel into its socket in the stock a lot tighter, so it no longer wiggles. I believe I will finalize matters by sticking some more lead in the back. Balance is just a little too forward right now.

The thing weighs a serious ton, so I'm not worried much about recoil. The barrels are some of the thickest pieces of steel I've ever seen on a firearm. I wonder if there's any upper limit on powder charge with this thing.

[Pancho]

Cosmoline, please explain BLO and milsurp.

[Cosmoline]

BLO= boiled linseed oil. As with surplus rifles I did not use any modern grain sealer. The BLO does that by itself, you just have to take time with it. Each coat is hand rubbed with friction warming from the skin, and polished with ultra fine steel wool between coats. Takes a long time, but after four or five coats it really looks nice. Not shiny, but deep.

[bfoster]

Hello Cosmoline,

I note with interest your recent acquisition. As PremiumSauces implies in his post above, regulation of these rifles, at least in the past, appears to have been chancy.

Finding the load that shoots well in your rifle may require considerable persistence.

My .50 Kodiak, an older version, also acquired used, has a listed twist of 1:48 (this twist is not current). The actual twist of my rifle is 1 turn in 1 meter (just a bit tighter than 1:40). Round ball loads cast in 1:160 weigh ~175 grains IIRC. (The tin is added makes casting consistent soft lead bullets much easier). Round ball loads always crossed at very close range. Today twist of these rifles is listed at 1:24. It may save some frustration if you measure your twist.

Quoting (and editing) a post I made here on THR about 5 years ago:

"It doesn't shoot round balls, common BP sabots or common BP conicals to anywhere close to the same point of impact. Yes, I could have used one of the two sights for each barrel, but that, in part defeats the purpose of a double rifle, at least to my way of thinking, because the second barrel wouldn't be instantly available.

"Testing showed that this rifle had the characteristic property of a double: bullet weight is critical to results. My rifle prefers bullets of 450 grains, and despite the listed twist of 1:48 shoots them well (actual twist appears to be 1: 39.4). Trouble is that there isn't a readily available m/l bullet of this weight available in my area. So I purchased Lyman mould # 515141, listed at 425 grains, nominal, with #2 alloy. It throws bullets alloyed from 1:160 at 451 grains, and produces very consistent bullets. The problems were, unfortunately, not solved in entirety at this point. The bullets were very difficult to load as they were about 0.515" in diameter, and the rifle has groove diameters of 0.5119 and 0.5121". OK, I built a swage to reduce bullet band diameter to 0.5120", and reduce the base diameter to 0.4980" (0.0005" below bore diameter for these tubes) for ease in loading, and decided to add a hollow point to the bullet while I was at it. The bullet was markedly easier to seat, but still too hard to load for a practical field rifle. So I ended up building a second swage to produce rifling grooves on the bullet, these are just 0.001" wider than the corresponding lands of the barrel.

"The second swage did the trick. The successful load is 80 grains of GOEX ffg, topped by a felt wad follwed by a pasteboard wad then the bullet. This combination is easy to load and accurate. It is capable of shooting grapefruit sized groups at 100 yards (off the bench), all that I feel that I should be able to do with my aging eyes.

"The sights? Oh yes, I replaced the blade in one of the factory sights with an express type blade I made."

I've since reduced the load to 75 grains of GOEX ffg: accuracy remains about the same, within the range I'm willing to shoot game the trajectory isn't notably worse, and its a bit easier on this old shooter. This load drops deer very quickly indeed when I do my job as a hunter the right way -an unspooked animal at close range and good shot placement.

Bob

BTW, in pulling up the old thread to get the mateial I quoted I noted that another shooter, 101AirborneE8, reported similar results using a MaxiBall over 78 grains of ffg.

[Cosmoline]

Thanks! That's good info. The twist on yours seems to be slower than mine. I think there's a difference between the Pedersoli Kodiak "express" rifles with the straight stock and the Cabelas Kodiak with the semi pistol grip stock like mine. Cabelas lists a much faster twist rate.

I'll fiddle around and see what works, though frankly if I can get a solid grouping at fifty I'll be happy, whether the barrels are hitting to the same POA or not. Close is fine, I've got plenty of smokeless rifles to thread needles if I need to.

Do you remember what kind of velocity you were getting with your conicals? Those loads seem on the light side.

[arcticap]

I don't swab with soapy water and alcohol to remove powder or plastic fouling.
I use black powder solvents and very tight patches with a jag. Metal brushes aren't usually necessary to clean the bore of a muzzle loader either, but Hoppe's does make Tynex BP bore brushes, and there's solvents to more easily deal with plastic fouling.
A soap water and alcohol mixture probably just isn't effective enough for every type of barrel residue.