[Bruce in West Oz]

Day one of the gun buy - back tough for some
By Geoff Strong
August 9, 2003

http://www.theage.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1060145879397_2003/08/09/cameron_0908.jpg
Handgun buy-back project officer Cole Cameron destroys one of the guns in Geelong yesterday.
Photo: CRAIG SILLITOE

The sky was funereal, gunmetal grey you might say, a reflection of the sad faces from the line of men trying to shelter from rain sweeping along the Geelong foreshore.

Shane (who didn't want to give his surname) was holding back sobs. "I feel terrible, I feel like ?????," he said.

Yesterday was the first day for the Victorian public to participate in the national handgun buy-back program. While some states had decided to undertake it by setting up permanent centres, Victoria's police have decided to conduct a statewide travelling roadshow spending its first three days in Geelong.

Shane delicately placed on the folding tables in front of him a huge American revolver, its barrel about 30 centimetres long called a Silhouette 45/70. It seemed an awesome piece of firepower, its barrel the colour of the sky.

He said he believed it would be worth $3500 but he had an even more valuable firearm of .50 calibre which he hoped would earn him $4800.

In the box beneath his feet there were 15 other such guns. A refrigeration engineer by profession, he said he had come over from Melbourne to "get it over with", on the first day of the buy-back. "I'm going to get out of the sport (pistol shooting) entirely and concentrate on rifle target shooting and hunting."

He denied he was obsessed with guns. "It's a good sport, you meet good people, you learn discipline, safety."

In yesterday's queue there were up to 60 men including John Crane, who had driven over from Sale. He said he had been shooting for 15 years and owned six pistols, but the new laws meant he was not prepared to put up with "the bureaucracy". "You have to shoot each pistol once a month and for me that means driving from Sale to Traralgon and it's not worth it," he said.

He said it had been impossible to sell a handgun for three years and he believed the price the Government was offering seemed fair so he had decided to cash his guns in.

Licensing Services Branch Commander Dave Dettmann, in charge of the buy-back, said there were about 700 different guns on the Government's list ranging in value from a few hundred dollars to about $6000. "If somebody brings something in that we haven't seen before we photograph it for the record," he said.

All guns surrendered are taped with a barcode and crushed by a special press before being taken back to Melbourne and melted for scrap. If they want, people surrendering the guns could watch the crushing process, but that was not an option for Shane. "I just can't bear to watch," he said.

I posted this for information only. If anyone wants to start on about "pussy Aussies" or any other denigrating terms, I'd suggest you think twice.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/08/08/1060145866843.html

Bruce

[Orthonym]

Uh... didn't it occur to anyone to ... well, CHEAT? As in, I'm very sorry, Officer, I have no idea what happened to those guns. Yes, I reckon you'll have to arrest me and I'll have to go to prison. (But when I get out, I'll still know where they're buried and you won't!)

[HBK]

:( Can't you guys resist somehow, just not comply? Bury them or something? I feel for you guys. I hope it gets turned around somehow, but it doesn't look too good right now.

[Bruce in West Oz]

No, we can't 'lose" them because they are ALL registered already -- the police know what we have. If we "lost" one, we would be charged, and our licence revoked (plus fine or, unlikely, prison time). Without a licence, we can't even buy ammo -- and possessing a prohibited gun without a licence is starting to get very serious indeed -- you WILL in all probability do time for that.

As long as the government doesn't know what you have or don't have, you're in a position to resist or feign ignorance/innocence. Once they're registered and you're licensed -- forget it.

But thanks for the thoughts anyway.

Bruce

[only1asterisk]

I don't know what to say, there are priceless works of art and many other perfectly good machines being destroyed without sense or purpose. My mind can't wrap itself around the concept and there is unspeakable rage deep within at this new level of stupidity that defies words.

What will you do when they come again for the rest, Bruce?


David

[Orthonym]

You said prison was _unlikely_? Well, hell, keepa you mouf shut! You don' need no steenkeeng license! Are you still sucking up to the state when it's demonstrably wrong and crazy? IGNORE THE STATE! (Just be careful not to get caught!). Or, if you are caught, as I pointed out above, deny everything! As to not being able to buy ammo, surely you've "lost" some of that too as well?

[geekWithA.45]

The simple fact of the matter is that these poor folks are TRAPPED, and the only exit is compliance, or life changing radical action.

I'm certain there are some folks in this world gloating about the success of incrementalism and civilian disarmament, and the Sara Brady's of the world are taking joyous note.

Damn them all.

As much as I love Tamarra's thought that "the day you need to bury the guns is the day you need to dig them up", the phrase: "Legally acquire and cache minimally papered and plausibly deniable arms" seems rather poignant right now.

[Hal]

Bruce -
Don't let some of the Patrick Henry types get to ya (calling the Aussies wussies).
Keep the info flowing.

[geekWithA.45]

A whole country disarms its civilians, and narry a whisper.

[hillbilly]

Uh, has no one in Australia ever read H.D. Thoreau's essay which is sometimes titled "Resistance to Civil Government" or more popularly
"Civil Disobediance?"

Has no one in Australia heard of Thoreau or Ghandi or Martin Luther King Jr?

One tactic in the face of unjust laws is to civilly disobey the law. Ignore it. And when they come to arrest you, cheeerfully and joyfully go to prison. For as Thoreau wrote, and Ghandi and King and countless others practiced, when the "government imprisons unjustly, the only place for the just man is in prison."

Some things ought to be worth going to prison for. There are some armchair commandos on this board urging armed resistance. I would figure anything worth killing and dying for might be worth going to prison for, as well.

And then the government will have to explain why it has imprisoned so many people for merely owning a once legal inanimate object.

Even a bunch of Canuck wheat farmers figured out this tactic to protest draconian wheat price controls last year in Canada.

But, I think a big part of the problem might be found in this article.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/6/newsid_2514000/2514833.stm

Considering that Australia is still one big British Colony at heart and that the Queen is still the official head of state, it might prove very difficult to stand up for rights that one has never claimed nor declared.

What's good enough for the Queen and the mother country is certainly good enough for the far-flung colony. Considering the UK's outlook on guns, I suppose a partial ban looks rather mild in comparison.


hillbilly

P.S. History Channel just ran the segment, literally as I keyboard these words, about the Spartan reply of "Molon Labe." Spooky, or what?

[hillbilly]

Here's the essay.

In the first section, Thoreau is talking about the specifics he is protesting.....poll taxes, slavery, the Mexican War.

It's later in the essay when he gets into tactics and a narrative of his own imprisonment for refusing to pay his poll tax for six years.

http://www.cs.indiana.edu/statecraft/civ.dis.html

After the imprisonment narrative, he talks about when you should resort to this set of tactics, and when you shouldn't.

hillbilly

[Boats]

Well the Brownshirts had their book bonfires, and it seems the Aussies in charge have their totalitarian gun furnaces. Great place to live.:rolleyes:

[redhead]

Well, here's an example for the gun-grabbers in the USA, you know - the ones who claim that registration doesn't lead to confiscation. Registration is simply a way for the gov. to solve crimes - it usually just tells the police who owned the firearm at the time it was stolen. Sure, and it makes it really easy to know who owns what, and where to go to pick them up when the powers that be decide that you can't have them anymore. Registration has been here, at least in California, for a good long while. The Cal. DOJ has an extensive database of firearms and who owns them.

Bruce, and others from Australia, I saw the thread yesterday, the one that was locked. I live in California. We get a lot of mud slung our way, too, for the draconian gun laws here on the left coast. I feel your pain...and I'm doing what I can to fight the tyrannical oppressors. My husband is more optimistic than I am, but I believe that the day will come when I'll have to decide what I'll do when they come for MY guns.

[TallPine]

Can't you guys resist somehow

But that would be breaking the law,

and we can't talk about that here.

[Partisan Ranger]

I am really sorry for your plight, and I apologize for any insensitive comments I made on another thread about you Aussies. That was wrong of me. I have no doubt that there are many of you who love freedom and liberty as we do here. But, just as we do, you have a lot of leftists in high power who want to run your lives.

What a sad day when a law-abiding citizen's guns are put in the crusher. Reminds me of Nazi book burnings. :mad:

[Kaylee]

ugh... I can't remember the last time I felt like losing my lunch reading something before.. literally. oh dear oh dear....

are there any protests? Any kind of demonstrations at the pick-up places at least?

Are the pick-up folks armed, or just doing the first pass with a smile and nod, the implication being that the pointy-spear guys will be along behind?
Are the pickup folks local LEOs, or Fed types?

(the reason I ask is -- at least in the rural/mountain US -- I'd expect Feds trying that to get shot from concealment a couple hundred yards outside of town, while local LEOs might get a pass on the grounds they're family)

-K

[TallPine]

while local LEOs might get a pass on the grounds they're family

Don't count on that ...

[jon]

But, just as we do, you have a lot of leftists in high power who want to run your lives.


Is that RUN, or RUIN?

:rolleyes:

[Partisan Ranger]

Run/ruin. What's the difference? I'd have to say that I don't think that leftists deliberately want to ruin lives, but by their arrogance and sense of moral superiority, they feel our lives need to be run, and in the process, they ruin many of them.

[Poodleshooter]

Lesson to be taken from this: Never allow the government to know the details of your firearm ownership by any means of registration. All it takes is a law placing the onus of disproving ownership of firearms on the individual, and you're instantly a criminal.
We've already got pockets of full registration scattered over this nation. New York registers all handguns fully, California registers "assault rifles",et.al.
If your name is on one of those lists, and they pass a law tomorrow stating that not only can you not own that firearm, but indeed must prove how you disposed of it on pain of incarceration, you are in serious trouble.
The "I'll just say I sold it" idea will not work under such a law. Since you must use an FFL to transfer out of a state, there WILL have to be a written record of the transaction somewhere.
Food for thought...

[Carnitas]

Sounds like its time to shoot the bastards!

[Dorrin79]

Bruce and the other Aussies here:

you have my sympathies. I don't know what I would do in your position.

A sad day for a country that used to be a symbol of rugged individualism.

[4v50 Gary]

My Australian brothers, tis a sad day indeed.

Suggest you go to the ballot box and vote yourself in as our 51st State. While you're at it, throw the scallywags out of office. They stole enough money the first time and now they have your guns.:mad:

[seeker_two]

We mourn for you, Australia...

And we learn from you, Australia...

And we'll be ready when our turn comes to register...


:evil:

[Partisan Ranger]

How fair- the government 'buys back' your guns with money it confiscated from your pay check.

[nascarnhlnra]

I feel bad for the Australian gun owners and sure hope the American gun owners are paying close attention to this mess.

[TheOtherOne]

Is there really a law that puts you in prison for losing your guns?

Even if the government was paying for the guns and I wouldn't be able to legally use them again.... I would still much rather say I went on a fishing trip and accidentally lost them in the middle of the lake. Can't you just call the registration police and tell them that so they won't come asking about them?

[Cosmoline]

The lessons to learn (among others)

Make sure the gun owners of ALL types stay unified, and avoid the in-fighting and "well at least they aren't going after xxxx" nonsense

Support the NRA--there's a reason the gun grabbers hate and fear it so much--even abroad!

Support pro-RKBA politicians, ESPECIALLY the ones from the Democratic party (there are a few). The worst case scenario is that the RKBA lives or dies with the GOP's changing fortunes.

Never register a firearm with any governmental body. Ever.

If Feinstein gets her wish and says "turn them in", don't. It's a law that cannot be widely enforced without sparking a civil war, so let them spark it.

I'm glad I don't live in Australia! Man that's rough. But it's probably far, far too late to do much about it.

[geekWithA.45]

Cosmoline speaks truth.

[Bruce in West Oz]

Just need to make one point clear -- it IS still possible to own an "approved" handgun for "approved" purposes here in Australia.

It's just bloody onerous to do so! The following is from the official federal government website: http://www.handgunbuyback.gov.au

("Sporting shooters" refers to anyone other than collector, security guard etc. It is the only category for the average person to own a handgun.)

INFORMATION FOR SPORTING SHOOTERS

SUMMARY OF THE CHANGES

Which handguns will be prohibited for sports shooting?
Sporting shooters will be prohibited from importing, purchasing, possessing or using a handgun which has:

• a calibre that is greater than .38”, (unless the handgun is used to participate in a specially accredited event, in which case a handgun of up to .45” calibre will be permitted).
• a barrel length of less than 120mm for semi-automatic handguns and 100mm for revolvers and single-shot handguns
• a magazine/shot capacity that exceeds 10 rounds.

Specially accredited events
The majority of States and Territories have agreed that the events of metallic silhouette and single (or western) action should be specially accredited for the use of handguns up to .45” calibre. (Note: No IPSC -- the Prime Minister doesn't like IPSC :fire:

Click here to search the database of handguns and their valuations.

Are there any exceptions to the handgun prohibition for sporting shooters?
Highly-specialised handguns custom designed for target shooting are exempt from the barrel length restriction. (Note: They don't say it here, but this refers to Olympic or Commonwealth Games events only.)

Black powder muzzle-loading pistols and cap and ball revolvers are exempt from the calibre, barrel length and magazine capacity/shot restrictions.

Have any sports shooting events been prohibited?
No events have been prohibited. Sporting shooters will still be able to participate in their chosen event with a handgun that meets the agreed restrictions on calibre, barrel length and magazine/shot capacity.

What are the new licensing and access requirements for sporting shooters?
COAG agreed that from 1 July 2003 people who wish to take up sports shooting will have to satisfy a number of new requirements to be issued with a handgun licence and to gain permission to acquire a handgun.

Sporting shooters who are already licensed will also have to satisfy new requirements to retain their licence and their handgun/s.

These new requirements include:
• membership of a sports shooting club for all sporting shooters
• satisfactory police record checks and character references for new sporting shooters
• graduated access to handguns for new sporting shooters through a 12-month “probationary period” supervised by the club
• completion of a firearms safety training for new sporting shooters
• participation in a minimum number of shooting events every year for all sporting shooters.

For more specific information about the licensing and access requirements contact your State or Territory.

Probationary period
COAG agreed that a 12-month probationary period will have to be served by all new sporting shooters. During the first six months, sporting shooters will not be permitted to own a handgun of any type and must use handguns provided by the club or club members under close supervision. They must also satisfactorily complete a firearms safety training course and meet minimum participation rates.

In the second six months, sporting shooters will only be permitted to own:
• a .22’ calibre pistol or revolver and a .177’ air pistol, OR
• a centre-fire pistol or revolver and a .177’ air pistol

Some States and Territories will also permit sporting shooters to own a black powder handgun and a .177’ air pistol in the second six months.

After successful completion of the 12-month probationary period, sporting shooters may be able to acquire additional handguns subject to demonstrating a genuine need and being able to meet other requirements.

For more specific information about how the probationary period works contact your State or Territory.

Minimum participation rates for sporting shooters
Sporting shooters who wish to retain the ability to own a handgun, must participate in a minimum number of competitive shoots each year. Failure to meet the minimum participation rates will be a ground for cancellation of a sporting shooter’s handgun licence. (Note: Minimum participation will vary from State to State, anywhere from 4 to 8 properly constituted matches per year, per handgun owned)

For more specific information about the minimum participation rate that will apply to you contact your State or Territory.

NATIONAL HANDGUN BUYBACK

Will sporting shooters be eligible to receive any compensation under the handgun buyback?
Sporting shooters will receive compensation for the surrender of newly prohibited handguns, their major parts and directly-related accessories. The major parts and accessories can only be surrendered if they are specific to the surrendered handgun or to a handgun previously owned by the sporting shooter.

Major parts include slides, barrels and trigger assemblies. Accessories include magazines with a cartridge capacity greater than ten, speed loaders and special holsters.

No compensation will be paid to sporting shooters for minor parts, such as firing pins, screws and springs, or ammunition and its components.

Click here to search the database of handguns, parts and accessories and their valuations.

Can sporting shooters surrender and receive compensation for non-prohibited handguns?
If sporting shooters believe they will not be able to meet the new minimum participation rates and wish to exit the sport completely, they may surrender their non-prohibited handguns in return for fair compensation. Sporting shooters exiting the sport will also receive compensation for major parts and directly related accessories.

In these circumstances, sporting shooters must surrender all their handguns and their handgun licence and will not be eligible to hold another handgun licence for at least five years.

For more specific information about for how long you will be ineligible to hold a handgun licence contact your State or Territory.

Click here to search the database of handguns, parts and accessories and their valuations.

How much compensation will sporting shooters receive for handguns, parts and accessories?
A national list of handguns, parts and accessories and their values has been agreed to by Commonwealth, State and Territory governments. The valuations have been determined by firearms experts in consultation with firearm dealers and sporting shooters.

The compensation value of your handgun will depend on the make and model as well as its condition.

Handguns will be assessed under three categories:
• New (unused)
• Very good condition (used)
• Fair condition (used)

A decision will be made about the condition of your handgun when it is being surrendered.

An expert panel will be convened in each State and Territory to assess the value of any handguns that are not on the national list. If you cannot find your handgun on the website, contact your State or Territory.

Click here to search the database of handguns, parts and accessories, and their valuations.

How do sporting shooters surrender their handguns, parts, or accessories?
The States and Territories are responsible for organising the collection and destruction of handguns, parts and accessories and these arrangements will differ depending on where you live.

To find out about the arrangements which apply to you including the location of the nearest collection centre and the process to be followed when surrendering your handgun, parts and accessories, contact your State or Territory.

What if sporting shooters do not surrender their prohibited handgun?
Severe penalties for breaches of firearm laws apply in every State and Territory. Possession of a prohibited firearm is a serious matter. These penalties may include jail sentences.

[jimpeel]

Theft under color of law is still theft.

[HBK]

Is there ANYTHING that can be done to turn this around? If so, can we help somehow? Are the pro gun organizations in Australia that we can support?

[Mk VII]

as usual with these kind of things, you only heard about it after it was a done deal. It's far too late to change anything about it now.
If it's anything like it was here there are criminal penalties for loosing a gun or having it stolen from you.

[Esky]

It breaks my heart.

Bruce, you and all other Aussies who have been "fighting the good fight" but slowly losing, for so long now, have all my sympathy. I know the frustration and sadness that you must feel.

Yours in great sorrow,
Esky

who is sad for having left Western Australia, but glad that he's not there now, and who hopes that Kalifornia doesn't go the same way

[TheOtherOne]

If it's anything like it was here there are criminal penalties for loosing a gun or having it stolen from you.Dang. That is just plain crazy. Let's see them try and make people criminals if their car is stolen. The government victimizing the victim.

[Deadman]

If it's anything like it was here there are criminal penalties for loosing a gun or having it stolen from you.


This is from the firearms legislation for the Aus. state of New South Wales -


' FIREARMS ACT 1996 - SECT 39

General requirement

39 General requirement

(1) A person who possesses a firearm must take all reasonable precautions to ensure:

(a) its safe keeping, and

(b) that it is not stolen or lost, and

(c) that it does not come into the possession of a person who is not authorised to possess the firearm.

Maximum penalty: 50 penalty units or imprisonment for 2 years, or both, if it is established beyond reasonable doubt that the firearm concerned was a
prohibited firearm or a pistol, or 20 penalty units or imprisonment for 12 months, or both, in any other case.

(2) The regulations may specify the precautions that are taken to be reasonable precautions for the purposes of this section. '




Nice and vague isn't it? And no I have no idea what a penalty unit is....

[Nightfall]

Don't stop fighting, Australia.

Americans, take note. Registration = confiscation, plain and simple.

I know, I know, I'm preaching to the choir. :p

[seeker_two]

Maybe Australians SHOULD turn in their guns....

In fact, they should turn them in DIRECTLY to the government...

Australians should take ALL their guns & ammunition DIRECTLY to the capital steps & the PM's office...

And then....


:evil:

[Minuteman]

Isn't any firearm transaction recorded on a Form 4473 technically "registered"? At one point during the DC beltway shooter (Muhammed and Malvo) incidents, law enforcement agencies were going to area gun shops (FFL holders) and sifting through their Forms 4473 for people who owned rifles in 5.56mm, then paying them visits and "requesting" the use of their rifles for ballistic fingerprinting. I would love to be shown wrong on this, but isn't it so that any firearm acquisition requiring a Form 4473 is, by default, "registered"?

[HBK]

I've wondered about that too. Does anyone know?

[Cosmoline]

Good point, minuteman. It's more difficult for the gov'ment to use, since they have to do a lot of legwork, but the records are there showing the sales from the FFL. It's a good argument to buy on the secondary market, esp. before it's made illegal. Also, I'm quite sure many states have registration systems in place.

[spacemanspiff]

bruce, and all other aussies... we need a moment of silence for this tragedy.




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it burns me to see any weapon seized by government or LEO destroyed. they could just as easily be auctioned off and recoup some money. makes you wonder how many war relics, antiques, rarities, oddities, etc have been destroyed because of assinine laws. no, it makes you NOT want to think about it.

[OF]

As long as the government doesn't know what you have or don't have, you're in a position to resist or feign ignorance/innocence. Once they're registered and you're licensed -- forget it.Lets not forget these words spoken by someone here who knows what he is talking about.

Re: 4473 - yes it's not good. But not every gun is on a 4473. Every citizen should have at least a battle rifle and a fighting handgun in their possession with no paperwork attached. A scoped bolt-action rifle and a carbine would be next on the list.

- Gabe

[Partisan Ranger]

If the winds in this country start to blow toward confiscation, I will be sure to do a number of legal private purchases in my state well before the feds come. No fuss, no paper trail. And if the winds start to blow toward banning private sales, I will do the above well before the new laws take effect.

[AJ Dual]

A scoped bolt-action rifle and a carbine would be next on the list.

A scoped bolt-action should be first on that list, IMO. :mad:

And I shouldn't have to explain why.

[2dogs]

And then the government will have to explain why it has imprisoned so many people for merely owning a once legal inanimate object

Kind of like our government has to explain why it has imprisoned millions for choosing to dose themselves with chemicals not officially sanctioned by the powers that be?

Regardless of how you feel about drug users- the fact remains that they are imprisoned in large numbers just because a law was passed stating that they could be.

And so it will go with gun owners. If you think it won't you are severlely self delusional- you are after all a law abiding gun owner aren't you? Do you really believe that there is going to come that one magic law that is going to push you over the edge- to what? The lone terrorist- oh kind of like the Kozinski-Rudolph boys, eh?

Hate to rain on the parade folks- but Australia/Canada/UK is our mirror. :eek:

If the dark side wins anyway.;)

[Poodleshooter]

Re: 4473 - yes it's not good. But not every gun is on a 4473.
It doesn't really matter if you got your guns without a 4473 through private party sale. Someone else did. When their name comes up on the 4473, and they are subject to officers asking them to "tell us who you made a private party sale to or go to jail", they are going to willfully point out the next person in the line of ownership to the extent that they are able.
There are probably a tiny handful of guns available that did not cross a 4473 or an FFL at some point. Exceptions would be smuggled guns, ones stolen from US factories (coughLorcincough),etc.

[TheOtherOne]

There are probably a tiny handful of guns available that did not cross a 4473 or an FFL at some point. Exceptions would be smuggled guns, ones stolen from US factories (coughLorcincough),etc.I thought before like 1998, you didn't have to fill out that form. Or was that just when they started doing the instant background checks and they've always had the forms?

Either way... All my guns are registered as far as I'm concerned.... considering I've purchased every single gun I own in the last 12 months and have filled out a 4473 every time. All it takes is a new little law that says all gun stores have to send copies of their yellow forms to the feds. Oh, and right now don't shops that go out of business have to send them to the feds? So even in today's laws, if the store you bought your gun from goes out of business then the government gets the registration information.

[Partisan Ranger]

....but if I buy in a private transaction, why would the seller know my name, address, etc? If I called from a pay phone and we did business in a public place, he'd never know squat about me. Am I missing something?

[TheOtherOne]

....but if I buy in a private transaction, why would the seller know my name, address, etc? If I called from a pay phone and we did business in a public place, he'd never know squat about me. Am I missing something?Just from reading other posts on here about selling guns, alot of people want to cover their ???ets and at least get the persons name and address on a bill of sale. I've even heard some people mention that they get a photo copy of the buyers drivers license.

Now if it was me selling a gun, there would be three verbal questions before the sale and that's it:

1. Are you at least 21 (handgun) or 18 (rifle)?
2. Are you a resident of my state?
3. You have the cash?

[TallPine]

It doesn't really matter if you got your guns without a 4473 through private party sale. Someone else did.

Lot's of guns were made and sold more than 10 years ago.

It hasn't always been this way. Terrifying how people assume that it has.

Used to be able to buy mail order - didn't matter how old (or young) you were either.

[OF]

I have a couple guns that I bought without any personal info being exchanged. Cash money = item for sale. Thankyouverymuch.

- Gabe

[fallingblock]

the important message getting through here.:D

The "Law-abiding firearms owners" of Australia are losing their guns because they (we:eek: ) strive to stay within the increasingly oppressive and onerous laws being passed by the hoplophobes in government (and their advisers). They will eventually deprive us of handguns...certainly the "sport" is now so difficult and time-consuming to enter that it will shrink in numbers (and thus support).

Those who commit criminal acts with firearms are still doing so, and no positive effect on crime will come from the confiscations of legally-held firearms.

Registration does NOT address the problem of criminal misuse of firearms.

In response to those of you who asked if administrators of processing were federal or local law enforcement...here in the Territory we have a two-man team making the rounds to collect the now 'illegal' handguns and hand out the payment checks.

This team consists of two police sergeants who also compete in IPSC at local clubs and are 'gun' people themselves. They are not responsible for the laws pushed down fron the idiot P.M. in Canberra, but the states more or less are forced to comply. Any animosity directed at these guys would be misplaced.

THR Aussies from other states may have different experiences, as I have heard rumours that the process has been less friendly in Victoria.
Any comments on Western Australia, Bruce?

[Bruce in West Oz]

fallingblock

Haven't heard any complaints about the Wes Aussie police so far. But undoubtedly there will be some.

TheOtherOne said:
Dang. That is just plain crazy. Let's see them try and make people criminals if their car is stolen. The government victimizing the victim.
A bit off-track, I know, but here in Western Australia if your car is stolen (especially if then used in a crime) and you are found to have left it unlocked or with the keys in the ignition, you can and probably will be charged by the police -- it's against the law not to secure your car. It's also compulsory to fit an immobiliser to any car, no matter how old, when you sell it.

Just thought you needed to know that. :evil:

Bruce

[TheOtherOne]

A bit off-track, I know, but here in Western Australia if your car is stolen (especially if then used in a crime) and you are found to have left it unlocked or with the keys in the ignition, you can and probably will be charged by the police -- it's against the law not to secure your car. It's also compulsory to fit an immobiliser to any car, no matter how old, when you sell it.


http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/sad/1004.gif

Dang, next you're going to tell me a woman who is raped will be charged if she wore a short skirt or had a low cut top on.

[geekWithA.45]

.

[Kharn]

Got a small machine shop? http://www.roderuscustom.tzo.com

Kharn

[Politically Incorrect]

Bottom of page http://www.handgunbuyback.gov.au/

No compensation will be paid for illegally-held handguns.

Who would anyone hand in an illegally-held handgun - espically since you won't get paid to do so anyway?

So this is about guns owned by law-abiding citizens and not about criminals owning guns?

:rolleyes:

-Tommy

[TallPine]

Any animosity directed at these guys would be misplaced.

Yeah, right - just doing their jobs, huh?

Could be hazardous to one's health.

[fmjcafe]

Seems Australia is now ripe for a flood of smuggled handguns which will in turn lead to calls for further restrictions on the few legal handguns that remain when the skyrocketing crime rate shows there`s still a problem.

[Bruce in West Oz]

fmj

You nailed it. At present, only something like 1 in 10 containers entering our major ports are being checked at all.

PLUS, we those eleventy-eight zillion kilometres of uninhabited coastline where ships could (and do) land people undetected.

So who does the government punish ..... ? (A rhetorical question because we all know the answer.)

[dksck]

Well, I've thought twice and decided there is no doubt about it. The Austrialians have lowered themselves below the lowest form of life. By their actions they have proven over and over that they have neither honor nor dignity. They have surrendered the right to control their own destiny to others who have declared themselves to be superior. I would use the term "sheeple," but that would be an insult to sheep everywhere.

[Esky]

dksck:

You're a new member. That doesn't excuse your ignorant post. Please learn to think before posting.

Esky

[redhead]

dksck - your type of post is what got the previous thread locked.

Very interesting screen name.

[Coronach]

Actually, we will handle this a slightly different way, this time.

This thread will remain open. Please, continue. But do so politely.

Thank you,
Coronach

[Bruce in West Oz]

dksck

You are entitled to your view, especially considering that you are, apparently, pretty new around here.

I would suggest, however, that you research a little more, mainly concerning the Australian parliamentary system and the amount of "non-compliance" with the last confiscation (1996), before putting up posts based on derogation and name-calling.

"If you want to understand my world, walk a mile in my moccasins."

(You might also like to investigate why this is called "The High Road".)

Cheers

Bruce (who still owns firearms and shoots regularly -- with honour and a little dignity)

[fallingblock]

And also as a citizen of the U.S. as well, I'd like to add that there is a huge amount of leverage being exerted upon the states by John Howard to push this second stage of the "Great Australian Gun Removal Scheme":mad:

THR members need only look at what the Clinton/Gore folks achieved in their eight years to realize that the U.S. is not immune to this sort of "top down" push to criminalize firearms owners.:uhoh:

The lesson I believe we need to take away from this situation is that individual registration of firearms must be resisted to the utmost in the U.S. if our Second Amendment is to remain relevant.

There is simply no supporting evidence that the confiscation of firearms from law-abiding owners reduces crime in any way. None:fire: .

But those who are pushing the anti-gun agenda know that.

They don't care if crime goes up or citizens are left defenceless....

It isn't a rational struggle we're engaged in here.

It's pure emotionally-driven social engineering and power-consolidation for those at the top. We need to get our message to the middle-ground folks and somehow manage to intimidate the grabbers politically at the same time.

Please redirect the energy used in name-calling of victimised Aussie gun-owners into fighting the very real threat stalking us all.

[Baba Louie]

If it cannot be done with bullets, then it must be done at the ballot box. I guess I'd better read up on the Aussie Parliamentary System and "Non-compliance" with the 96 confiscation... What did I miss?

Bruce and Fallingblock, How strong (or weak) IS your NRA-ILA type organization there? No lobbying allowed or what? Don't you have a Texas-like state that'll help keep the federal dogs at bay to some degree? Where shootin irons are a "By Gawd, Good Austrailian Tradition"?

Do not go quietly into that good night...

Whaddya gonna do when the jack rabbits decide to take over again?

Adios

[Moparmike]

Bruce, what is an imobilser? Is that like an alarm?

That would suck trying to rig that to a Model T. Would you have to key the post where the crank rod goes, and have a custom-toothed crank rod?

As tactfully as I can, I will say: Yall certainly do have some odd laws down there. I would do as much as I can to educate and "light a fire under the a$$es of" the sheeple who advocate such ignorant laws. I pray that we never have such ignorance propogate our government (too late) en mass and that you can experience what little personal freedoms we have now. I would most certainly help fund a "MicroBalrog and various Aussies" immigration fund to help you in your freedom-attaining cause.

I wish you the best and that logic may find your lawmakers.

[fallingblock]

"Bruce and Fallingblock, How strong (or weak) IS your NRA-ILA type organization there? No lobbying allowed or what? Don't you have a Texas-like state that'll help keep the federal dogs at bay to some degree? Where shootin irons are a "By Gawd, Good Austrailian Tradition"?"
***********************************************************
The closest we have to the NRA is the SSAA (Sporting Shooter's Association of Australia). Compared to the NRA it is weak...very weak. Shooters were 'blindsided' by the first Howard pogram on guns in 1997 and since then the SSAA has been getting its act together a bit. Too late, perhaps.:(

The Federal system in Australia is vastly different in practice than that in the U.S., with the Federal Government here holding nearly all the purse strings and wielding power gleefully when it suits.:eek:

The most "Texas-like" State would be Queensland, with a once-dominant country-conservative party and a lot of rural and small-town population compared to the other Aussie states. The country party has lost heavily. The Queensland State government, even though now held by the party in opposition to P.M John Howard's party, seems almost eager to implement the handgun bans.:uhoh:
I have lived most of my time in Australia in Queensland and can assure you that there are so many guns "off the books" there they will not be collected in decades:D. Still, politically there is no party of significance which supports the concept of an armed citizenry...and none likely to materialize either.:mad:

The modern Australian public just does not understand the benefit of an armed populace...the nation is 80% urban and entire generations have grown up with no heritage of firearms use.

It ain't lookin' good, Baba Louie:banghead:

Thanks for the kind words Moparmike...I'm a Yank as well as an Aussie and I'll be back one of these days...maybe to a 'free state' such as Wyoming:)
What we all have to do is get real serious now about fighting the anti-gunners in the U.S.A. at every step and on every political level. The internationalist social-engineers have the U.S. surrounded and their aim is to disarm us all.:what: