[briansp82593]

I meant to ask this a long time ago, but ive been busy and havent really played with my colt (i know, shame!) anyway heres my question, On the inside of my slide, its really deep, and i can see practically the whole length of the extractor, never seen anything like it... What is it there for/ what does it do? Heres a few pics
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r27/beretta96/IMG_0010.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r27/beretta96/IMG_0012-1.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r27/beretta96/IMG_0015.jpg
This is on a colt combat commander 70BS prefix
All help is greatly appreciated by this 1911 n00b

[David Detmer]

It extracts the empty brass. That slide has a lot of tool marks on it. Nice pics if you can see the tool marks.

[briansp82593]

It extracts the empty brass. That slide has a lot of tool marks on it. Nice pics if you can see the tool marks.
1. I am not an idiot, I know what an extractor is, Hell I could put together a 1911 Blindfolded
2. I am a 1911 Noob when it comes to specifics, models, and other variations.
3. I said I could see the extractor from the bottom of the slide, Never seen this before on others, and my actual question is asking what are the cut outs for?
4. Tool Marks? Maybe, the gun is 36 years old, and has had 4 previous owners + me who have shot the crap out of it
5. A gun is a tool, Not a 30 million dollar piece of art.

[David Detmer]

"meant to ask this a long time ago, but ive been busy and havent really played with my colt (i know, shame!) anyway heres my question, On the inside of my slide, its really deep, and i can see practically the whole length of the extractor, never seen anything like it... What is it there for/ what does it do? "
Did not mean anything by it but was answering your exact question. Maybe if it was worded a little different.
Also I was commenting how good a camera it is to show the toolmarks. Don't be so touchy.

[Ridgerunner665]

What model of Colt is that?

[briansp82593]

Sorry David, Im little edgy today... fedex ruined my new 350.00 camera lens they are replacing it but its going to take awhile :fire:
Its a colt combat commander. Someone on here dated it to '72.

[combatantr2]

And kinda weird. Looks like the slide and extractor are a one piece item. Have not seen anything like that before on a 1911.

[David Detmer]

That kind of money in a lens will show the tool marks for sure on anything. I hate FedEx, they have lost 2 pistols over the years and it was months to collect from them. Good luck.

[Ridgerunner665]

I'm no expert...but it seems to me like that would reduce the problem of the extractor channel getting crudded up and causing FTE or FTF's. But that may be ALL wrong...it was just a thought.

Another thought...maybe it is done to reduce slide mass (weight)

The slide and extractor are not 1 piece...the extractor is there, but the channel is milled out.

[briansp82593]

its not one piece i assure you. it is removed like any other 1911 extractor, but these cut outs or what ever you want to call them they are unexplainable, i cant find any info on them...
Still waiting on Tuner, he has an answer for every 1911 question :)

[briansp82593]

That kind of money in a lens will show the tool marks for sure on anything. I hate FedEx, they have lost 2 pistols over the years and it was months to collect from them. Good luck.
Ouch... Sorry about that... They suck period, UPS is the best imho.

I'm no expert...but it seems to me like that would reduce the problem of the extractor channel getting crudded up and causing FTE or FTF's. But that may be ALL wrong...it was just a thought.
Seems logical, I wonder if colt did this? looks like a factory job, and considering the gun has never been refinished in its lifetime, the cutouts would be silver?

[HisSoldier]

I'm guessing the slide clearance milling went a bit too deep, I've never seen anything like that before. Now I'm going to have to crack the books and see how much steel there is supposed to be over the extractor.

[HisSoldier]

Took my series 80 stainless commander length gun down, there is no comparison, nor any reason for that mill cut that I can see. It does look factory though, can't wait to see what Tuner says about it.

[briansp82593]

I'm guessing the slide clearance milling went a bit too deep, I've never seen anything like that before. Now I'm going to have to crack the books and see how much steel there is supposed to be over the extractor.
Cool! Thanks... And thats another possibility...

[scratchy wilson]

IIRC, they are cuts specific to Commanders, though I thought only for the lightweights. Mine(396xx-LW)has them. Wish I could remember what the reason was...:o

[Old Fuff]

I'm not Tuner, but anyway. :)

The original Commander was the Lightweight Commander, with an aluminum frame. To make it even lighter metal was removed inside the slide between the locking grooves and the barrel bushing, as well as around the extractor.

The early Combat Commanders (steel frame) had a slide similar to the lightweight model, but it wasn't long before these extra machining cuts were eliminated to save cost.

So not to worry, all is as it should be.

[briansp82593]

So what exactly does it do? reduce lock time/weight? I Know its not going to make the gun shoot 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards, but anything significant?

[FlyinBryan]

Its a new one on me, and ive built and rebuilt quite a few 1911s in my short time (30 some odd years)

so im kinda watching to see what they say here.

i would consider myself extremely experienced with the 4" colts but i can tell you right now, im no 1911tuner. (been reading that guys stuff here and am totally impressed)

[1911Tuner]

Fuff nailed it, as usual. It was a weight-reducing cut that carried over to the steel-framed Combat Commander for a time. I have one (Combat Commander) that's got the LW Commander slide cut.

Makes extractor removal and installation a bit different is all. You have to rotate it 90 degrees until it's in place, then orient it correctly.

Incidentally...Before the debut of the Combat Commander, there was no "Lightweight" designation. It was just "Commander" and they all had aluminum frames.

Also...There is no such thing as a "Series 70" Commander.

Now then...Can anybody figure out WHY Colt felt the need to lighten the slide as much as possible on the Commander Model?

No. It wasn't in order to make the gun as light as possible.

Old Fuff knows. I know he knows. :cool:

[Mad Magyar]

Slide velocity vs reliability due to shorter barrel length.....:confused:

[Drail]

Come on Old Fuff, don't leave us hanging like this! I gots to know man!

[Zach S]

Now then...Can anybody figure out WHY Colt felt the need to lighten the slide as much as possible on the Commander Model?
They were worrried about it elongating the hole for the side stop the aluminum frame?

I dont know. Just shooting in the dark.

[1911Tuner]

heh heh heh

I'll go ahead and beat Fuff to the draw on this one, since he's probably still tryin' to wake and shake after a long winter's hibernation in that cave of his.

The original Commander concept was for the US military...and it was to be in 9mm caliber. The slides were lightened where they could be without compromising the structural integrity in order to insure reliable function with the 9mm cartridge. While it's true that they could have simply gone with a light recoil spring, that wasn't really a viable alternative because it might compromise positive return to battery under field/combat conditions...so they opted for slide velocity instead of depending completely on slide mass.

[briansp82593]

Hahah... Thanks tuner, once again, amazed us all... Are you sure your initials arent jmb?

[Old Fuff]

I'll go ahead and beat Fuff to the draw on this one, since he's probably still tryin' to wake and shake after a long winter's hibernation in that cave of his.

OH BULL!!!!!

The Old Fuff has been up and (almost) awake since 0530... But he won't be around much today because his cave is about to undergo some major internal revisions...

Tuner is right about the slide. As some people don't seem to understand, the 1911 pistol was designed around the .45 ball cartridge. At the time the Army had considered and rejected the 9mm. But after 1945 they'd (foolishly) changed their minds and were looking into a smaller, lighter pistol, and the load they specified was the somewhat underloaded one that was offered to the U.S. commercial market by Remington and Winchester.

This was not the first time Colt had experimented with a shorter Government Model. A prototype had been developed prior to World War Two (in .45 ACP of course) and it didn't have the milling cuts inside the slide that the first post-war models did.

When the Army ask for samples, and showed a strong interest in the Walther P-38's design, Smith & Wesson, and Hi-Standard (better known for making fine .22 pistols) submitted their double-action prototypes. None were adopted, but both Colt and S&W put their guns out as commercial models - Colt as the Commander, and S&W as the model 39. Hi-Standard didn't bother, and went no further with a 9mm pistol.

Last but not least, early Gold Cup target models also had the same internal cuts as the Commander did, because Colt was trying to come up with a pistol that would reliably function with both light-loaded 185 and 200 grain match rounds as well as regular .45 ball. They did the same with 1911-based pistols chambered in .38 Special wadcutter and .38 AMU for bullseye paper punchers.

And they did even more on the ACE line of pistols and conversion kits chambered in .22 Long Rifle. Even so, these pistols were not known for their reliability. No matter what Colt did, the slide was just too heavy for the little rimfire to push around.

Slide velocity can have a major effect on reliability. Browning carefully balanced the weight of the moving parts in his pistol, as well as the springs. Often those that make substantial changes by either lengthening or shortening the slide and barrel, not to mention changing to different cartridges, loads and springs, discover that they don't know as much as they thought they did.

[FlyinBryan]

looks like old fuff has the same kinda stuff tuner does.

i have really tried hard to be a student of 1911 pistols and i have now seen this exposed extractor exactly 1 time, this 1.

so i sign up here thinking im gonna be an ace, and these guys instantly impress the crap outa me.

you guys make me sick.

just kidding, look forward to increasing my abilities here.

now can i get you guys some coffee or anything. maybe a pastry?

[WSM MAGNUM]

I'll go ahead and beat Fuff to the draw on this one, since he's probably still tryin' to wake and shake after a long winter's hibernation in that cave of his.

OH BULL!!!!!

The Old Fuff has been up and (almost) awake since 0530... But he won't be around much today because his cave is about to undergo some major internal revisions...


:D:D Funny stuff! :D:D

[Old Fuff]

now can i get you guys some coffee or anything. maybe a pastry?

Thanks for the offer, but beware of Tuner's Turbo-Coffee. It is known to strip blue, Parkerizing and hard chrome plate... :evil: :D

The Old Fuff is now back on line with a big new (to him) desk to put his compooter on... :cool:

[1911Tuner]

beware of Tuner's Turbo-Coffee

Hey! I've got one guy that drives down from Raleigh to hassle me on a regular basis...and he has yet to accept my kind offer for a cuppa Joe. I think he's scared.

Ain't callin' any names, but his initials are Hunter...

:D

[Old Fuff]

Maybe his insides are Parkerized... :eek: :D

[gunnie]

+1 on SOME of the lightweights, or commander mdls having these cuts.

+1 on having seen SOME of the combats having them.

even though they didn't have the spring finger bushings or tapered bbl, com-coms from that era did have a "70" prefix to the serial#, but NO concise definitions about series 70 true meanings here. i can agree with ~either~ side of this coin.

whilst amidst a coupla older colt fans such as itself here, i remember a lotta anecdotal reports in gun porn mags about the series 70 bushings sheding "fingers" under long term usage when the design was new. have asked every old boxcar fan that i know who has/had self same bushings, and have zero reports of this failure....just pre-webnet trashers at work here?

tuner & fuff, what about you guys, seen any of these failures?

gunnie

[1911Tuner]

even though they didn't have the spring finger bushings or tapered bbl, com-coms from that era did have a "70" prefix to the serial#, but NO concise definitions about series 70 true meanings here. i can agree with ~either~ side of this coin.

Maybe I can make it a little more concise for ya.

The 70X prefix is just that...a serial prefix and nothing more. Pictured below is my pre-Series 80 Combat Commander with an 80B prefix. I assure you that there are no Series 80 firing pin safety parts contained therein.

Commanders and Combat Commanders that weren't equipped with the Series 80 internals were/are simply Commanders and Combat Commanders. The ones that were built in the 50s aren't called "Series 50 Commanders" any more than 1913-1919 Commercial Government Models are "Series Teens."

Here's the Combat Commander.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e243/1911Tuner/CombatCommander2.jpg

[Old Fuff]

...have asked every old boxcar fan that i know who has/had self same bushings, and have zero reports of this failure....just pre-webnet trashers at work here? Tuner & Fuff, what about you guys, seen any of these failures?

I have seen two, and heard of others. The problem is one of tolerance stacks and fitting. If a finger does crack it is next-to-impossible to get the pistol apart without damaging something, and so far as I'm concerned the bushing doesn't offer enough advantage to take this risk. One may last forever or break tomorrow.

Colt wanted to improve the pistol's accuracy, but not go to the trouble and expense of offering individually fitted barrel bushings. As so often happens where a bean-counter friendly change is made you can get unexpected consequences.

Suposedly what made a Series 70 a Series 70 was the modified barrel and bushing. The bushing on the Commander line of guns was too short (at least in Colt's opinion) to incorporate the fingered style. So serial numbers not withstanding, there isn't such a thing as a Series 70 Commander.

[1911Tuner]

Tuner & Fuff, what about you guys, seen any of these failures?

If you're referring to the collet bushing fingers breaking and tying up the guns...Yes. I've seen three. All three required destroying the slidestop to disasemble, by drilling the arm through to the pin and stepping up the drill sizes until the arm fell off. One gun suffered barrel and frame damage.

As Fuff noted...It might last forever, and it might break tomorrow. IMO, it offers no advantage over a well-fitted solid bushing...accuracy-wise...and could possibly result in expensive damage to a gun that is gaining collectible status. The simple measure would be to have a solid bushing fitted, and keep the collet bushing with the gun to preserve originality should you decide to sell.

[Fly320s]

For those of you, like me, who have never seen a collet bushing...

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i151/Fly320s/colletbushing.jpg

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i151/Fly320s/colletonbarrel.jpg

Found here: http://www.notpurfect.com/main/goldcup.htm

[gunnie]

bogus....

have to look into replacement or stop shooting gold cup. i have put an ed brown "drop-in" bbl in my non series 70 com-com from the 70's. wasn't too much fitting. any recomendations as to other flavors that would be more accurate?

got a vast accuracy improvement in the combat, but it wasn't designed to be a paper puncher as issued. and most of the wrinkles were eroded from the OEM bbl from mucho shooting.

how much this really hurt accuracy is hard to tell without having same iron in hand new for before/after comparison.

gunnie