[natedog]

This thing looks ridiculous. An M-4 equipped with a mouse, laser rangefinder, compass, infrared, nightvision, video camera, built in radio, internet access, a monitor, an eyepice, and a bayonet lug. A computer is worn on the back. This is just too complicated. How do they think that this is going to work with soldiers crawling through the muck, mud, etc? It's incredimbly heavy, and throughs the balance of the rifle. It runs off of a battery that only lasts 12 hours. Millions have been spent on developing it. Millions more are requierd to field it. And millions more will be requiered to train soldiers on it. The computers and electronics weigh 25 pounds, in adition to the 92 pounds of other equipment (food, ammo). Am I missing something here?

[juicy]

quick que the picture up with the m4 that even has the a fork and spoon on it.

[duckfoot]

didn't some one say that if you gave a solider a lot to look at and listen to then some one with a stone could sneek up on him and ack em because he wasn't paying attention to what was around him

[jercamp45]

Enough Said!!

Jercamp45

[Waitone]

Proper use of technology requires wisdom.

Technology says, "We can."

Wisdom says, "We should."

"Can" and "Should" are two different concepts. I think Landwarrior is trying to answer the wisdom thingy.

[Leatherneck]

Landwarrior/Future Combat System will devote a lot of funding to R&D in the next decade. Some of it will bear fruit, some won't. There are people around, watching, who will demand rigorous operational testing before anything gets fielded, other than on an experimental basis.:scrutiny: And yes, those folks understand the effects of weather, explosive shock, and soldier abuse. The R&D is badly needed.

TC
TFL Survivor

[Ohen Cepel]

I think it's around because they couldn't find any good ways to spend millions on a soldier otherwise. Part of the reason we carry a lot of substandard/old equipment is that the contracts for it don't come close to tanks or aircraft.:cuss:

One good point about it. If you assume that the role of the soldier changes to one of fixing/targeting the enemy for other weapons systems then maybe it's not sooooo bad.

I would rather go very light and be able to use my own senses. However, I'm not of the Nintendo generation.

[Waitone]

Assumptions are bad things when it comes to warfare.

Assuming we will always be in range of artillery and // or have air supremacy is hazardous IMHO.

[Pheonix]

My question is, what about your perri..perrifial...perifreal....SIDE vision with that thing covering your eye and the cable sticking strait out from it?

[HankB]

Landwarrior/Future Combat System will devote a lot of funding to R&D in the next decade. Most importantly, decisions on what to actually deploy will depend just as much on which congressional district the suppier is in as on actual performance. (To say nothing about whether or not the supplier has a properly diverse workforce.)

[DigMe]

I was assuming that the system was actually going to get a lot smaller and compact as the technology and research catches up.

I'm not real educated on it but it seemed like one cool thing about it was that you could actually aim and shoot by just pointing the gun around the corner so that only your hands would be exposed. It is pretty damn big I must say.

brad cook

[mnealtx]

Hopefully the computer that's going to control all this stuff won't be running Windows..... :D :D

[keithernTN]

It would be substantially smaller, and battery life extended if it were to be used in combat. I like the concept of programmable bullits that could be used to explode at certain distances like over barricades or at the end of a wall.

[Cellar Dweller]

But can you bunny-hop with it? :neener:

[cslinger]

I agree with the fact that it is in a very early experimental stage and that some of it will bear fruit and some will not.

Fiberoptic sighting so you can point guns around corners and only expose your hands and arm to a lesser extent would be an great battlefied benefit.

Personally what I think we are witnessing is the beginning of power armored soldiers. It is coming. The weapons are getting bulkier and will require power supplies, the battle fields are getting deadlier. We will see power armored soldiers in our life time even if just in their infancy.

The thing that we must remember is that there are battles and wars that CAN be won with technology and their are battles and wars that can only be won by some poor 18 year old schmuck who is knee deep in mud with one magazine left and a bayonet. We need to make sure we pusue both technology and training in the basic arts of war.

I will get back to my armchair now.

Chris(armchair commando)

[Hank Zudd]

maybe us humans are just testing & validating weapons systems to be used by clones, cyborgs or other unkown manufactured armies. Target marking is what got me thinking about this. The ultimate goal seems to be the real army in a box somewhere, thousands of miles from the FLOT, with no emotion tied to the loss of those that do the fighting. Virtually no other foe has the capability to achieve air superiority; that's half the battle. We just need some remote control mop-up & root out the stragglers type forces. ??:rolleyes: btw-I spent 20 yrs as a crewchief, redleg, grunt & weekend warrior; I may be in my armchair now, but I stay ready to get up!~

[Bigjake]

Ummm... thats nice, just determine how far away the wall is, and how far behind it you want the bullets to "explode", input all that into your weapon, then turn to find that the guy you wanted to nail behind the wall is now behind you and you cant see him. seems a lot easier to solve with a simple, oldschool grenade lobbed over said wall....

[Coronach]

Research on these things is gonna happen. If we don't do it, someone else will. And when they actually field something that is space age and works, we will be crouched there with our M16A8s ("'cause thats the way we did it in 'Nam, dammit!") and wondering how they're shooting rounds over the berm from 200 yards away and having them explode right over our heads.

The future of warfare is not a soldier in web gear, armed with a 1911 and a Garand. We need to get over this.

Landwarrior and the OICW (and its crew-served brother whose acronym eludes me) don't work in their current trim. Given. But the R&D isn't done yet, and will likely bear some fruit, either in the form of a system like it that does work, or some subcomponent that does.

That said, I fully want and expect anything that is adopted to pass the Heinlein test (someone armed with a more primitive weapon- like, say, a stone axe- will sneak up and smash your skull in while you're trying to read a vernier).

I wonder if the same people objecting to Landwarrior/OICW now also objected to those silly JDAMs and other unneccesary electronics the air force wanted to slap on bombs. ;)

Mike

[Waitone]

The American Civil War was a horror predominantly because war making technology raced ahead of tactics. For a variety of reasons neither side was able to adapt to new technology and the result of death at a breath-taking rate.

While LandWarrior may be a developmental program designed to see where the technology will lead us, I fear the American's propensity to get doey-eyed over technology to the exclusion of tactics. Some of LandWarrior may work out, some won't. I do hope those involved don't go technology nuts and adopt something not because it is needed but because we can.

A direct example of my concern come from the world of intelligence. The US went nuts-o over technical collection. Simultaneously ill-advised decisions were made by technology geeks which effectively said, "What do we need with human intelligence when we can listen to phone calls. Get rid of the spooks." The small, insignificant distinction between capability and intent escaped our illustrious leaders.

The pay-off----at the outbreak of the Iranian hostage crisis the US didn't have a clue what was going on at ground level because we fired all our spooks. Same applies to Iraq of today. We can't even find enough linguists to support the intelligence collection.

Humans! So messy.

[MMcCall]

and it still just a .22!!!!!
Enough Said!!


Every time I see this comment, I wonder if it's any comfort to all the families of those people who were killed with single .223 shots in DC and MD.

As for the land warrior concept.. I'm a futurist, and I make no bones about it. I'm a technology early adopter.. I had the first CD player of anyone I knew.. I like polymer guns as well as steel.. I run beta computer operating systems.

What's it gotten me? The occasional heartache, to be sure, but it's also meant I was head and shoulders above everyone else when it came time to put these items into everyday use. I was the teacher instead of the student.

I think in the interest of national security, it behooves the US to always be the teacher rather than the student. This is RESEARCH we're talking about here, it's not like Rumsfeld's told everyone to show up after lunch for their OICW and XM-8

[willyjixx]

dude you been playin fallout?.................:D


i woundnt wanna lug all that crap around thats for sure. on the other hand programmable munitions seem to be very usable

[cordex]

and it still just a .22!!!!!
Enough Said!!
Yeah, but at least they're not using 7,62 by whatever. I mean, it would still just be a .30, and I remember stories 'bout .30 carbines bouncing off the baddies back in Korea. Plus there's that pansy 7,62 euro/russian pistol cartridge, and since caliber is the full measure of a cartridge, we wouldn't want to use the wussy .308 or .30-06 or .300 Winchester Magnum for certain, 'cause they're a wussy little .30!!!!! And don't even get me started on the pansy .25-06. Why, I shot a buddy's .25ACP and it hardly punched through the road signs we were shooting at. .25ACP and .25-06 can be compared, y'see, on account of them havin' the same caliber and all.
:rolleyes:

[erikm]

maybe us humans are just testing & validating weapons systems to be used by clones, cyborgs or other unkown manufactured armies. Target marking is what got me thinking about this. The ultimate goal seems to be the real army in a box somewhere, thousands of miles from the FLOT, with no emotion tied to the loss of those that do the fighting. Virtually no other foe has the capability to achieve air superiority; that's half the battle. We just need some remote control mop-up & root out the stragglers type forces. ??:rolleyes: btw-I spent 20 yrs as a crewchief, redleg, grunt & weekend warrior; I may be in my armchair now, but I stay ready to get up!~
Naawww, this stuff is all being tested for the powered armor systems coming out 'next year'. Airtight, fully articulated, strength enhancing armor, I like it! :D

Seriously, I'm probably not alone in thinking armies will go that direction at some point, at least for some of their troops. You can only load so much gear on a grunt before (s)he collapses. Even today, from what I read some LRRP types really ought to bring a caddy-type golf cart along for their gear :) The way sensors, communications and smart weaponry are going, full body armor and IR suppression (or stealth) are going to become highly recommended. As in: If I see something, all my friends will instantly know what's there, where it is and where it's going. Includes my friend with the automortar and my friend with the drone command system.

Ummm... thats nice, just determine how far away the wall is, and how far behind it you want the bullets to "explode", input all that into your weapon, then turn to find that the guy you wanted to nail behind the wall is now behind you and you cant see him. seems a lot easier to solve with a simple, oldschool grenade lobbed over said wall....
It apparently takes quite a lot of time and practice to become that good with the grenade.

Determining the distance to the wall is done with a laser rangefinder. The extra distance can be set with a thumb wheel. Windage might also be a thumbwheel setting. The aiming point is calculated by the weapon's computer with the total distance, angle (from an on-gun sensor) and the grenade's ballistic properties. Since the launcher is rifled the grenade spins and this can be sensed by the grenade (it's how WWII AA shells worked). The grenade is told to explode after X rotations, on impact or 5 minutes after launch, whichever comes first.

To my civilian eyes, these targeting systems are basically AFV targeting systems miniaturised and fitted to rifles. What I'd really like to see is the accuracy of one of these systems matched and fitted to a good hunting/sniping rifle, ideally one on a powered mount. Point and shoot! :D Unintended Consequences showed the potential of something like this, but with discrete parts.

[Destructo6]

Bigjake, you haven't read about the operation of the XM29, have you? Lase, add a meter, fire: takes about 1.5 seconds.

You know, people looked at the Wright flyer and mused that airplanes were worthless in any military role. Something to think about.

Me? I'm all for the Mobile Infantry.

[Bigjake]

and what happens when your space gun gits wet? perhaps an EMP blast hits the equipment, then what? all these "toys". why do they need yet another thing that could break at any time on them? they already have a finicky .22 prone to jams and breaking. i think this ones going the direction of v-22.

[MMcCall]

and what happens when your space gun gits wet? perhaps an EMP blast hits the equipment, then what? all these "toys". why do they need yet another thing that could break at any time on them?

What exactly do you think they're doing over there at Picatinny? Eating donuts and looking at internet porn?

It's called "research" for a reason. I'm sure little things like water and electricity are included in their test regimen. Dismissing all this R&D as "playing with toys" is pointless and ignorant.

they already have a finicky .22 prone to jams and breaking.

Which is precisely why we need to be coming up with the next generation of weapons and equipment, eh?

[PaladinX13]

Please, we're not so antiquated that water + electronics = failure are we? As for EMP, you might as well ask what if the enemy starts using microwaves or firestorms to cook off all your ammo.

[Navy joe]

One day this stuff will work and work well. When it does it will be a leap forward, but you can't un-invent a supressed .308 that can hit within an inch at 300yds or A bunch of TNT at a soldier's R&R retreat. You will have to be patient, pick your battles, and be vewy, vewy quiet and then you too will have a shot at owning some of this high tech gear once the owner doesn't need it anymore.

It will change warfare, just don't expect it to be any less deadly/ sanitary of a war.

[Bigjake]

MMcall-

If they are doing more than eating donuts at picatinny, then why is it still a .223?

Destructo6-

i see how it works, but when the enemy figure this out all they gota do is use a few easy to make smoke bombs and theres the end of your rangefinder.

PaladinX13- you'd be suprised to see what the PRC is up to over there...


I'm sceptical i guess. Just to many things that can go wrong IMO.

[Destructo6]

If they are doing more than eating donuts at picatinny, then why is it still a .223?
Probably, in a large part, for the same reason that we didn't go with the .260 (.243 or what was it?) when we adopted the Garand: we have lots of .223. Another reason for this particular system, that of the XM29, that the .223 weapon is just a backup for the 20mm grenade launcher.
i see how it works, but when the enemy figure this out all they gota do is use a few easy to make smoke bombs and theres the end of your rangefinder.
And naked eyes would see through such smoke? Wouldn't an IR laser be unaffected by smoke?

[Coronach]

No one is claiming it is an invincible uberweapon, BigJake. Sure, smoke could easily render that one part of it inoperable.

Hey, wait...smoke that thick will make it mighty hard to see where to throw the grenades, too. Ah well...

As with most things, there are people who get overly excited with new gee-whiz technology, and there are those who are still upset that we have replaced our trusty longbows with those unreliable muskets.

I mean, come ON. That system will never work. A bit of flint strikes some steel and ignites a charge of powder behind a ball, propelling it down a metal tube...what freakin' MORON thought this up?

:rolleyes:

Mike