Springfeild M1 muzzle energy? Bear Defense?


PDA






danweasel
April 5, 2008, 09:06 PM
Hi folks,

I just became a member today and a gun owner last week (.45acp XD) so... Anyways, does anyone have a rough idea of the energy that comes out of an M1 (using good ammo). I want to buy one but I can't decide if I want the standard or the scout. Will either of these stop a bear? I am not really too concerned on accuracy. I have piss poor eyesight and can't shoot much beyond 300m anyways. Haha.
What I really want is a fun gun to shoot that might just stop a bear in an emergency. Is it unreallistic to use a semi auto as a bear defense weapon? What about a semi 30-06? Oh yeah, I am talking about an Alaska bear too. Hahaha. Thanks a lot guys,

Dan

If you enjoyed reading about "Springfeild M1 muzzle energy? Bear Defense?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Carl N. Brown
April 5, 2008, 09:53 PM
M1 Garand gas system is set up for military specification (mil spec) ammo.

Some commercial .30-06 generates more pressure at the muzzle than mil
spec .30-06 and damage to the operating rod has been reported.

I would be wary of shooting commercial hunting ammo in an M1.

Regolith
April 5, 2008, 09:57 PM
Somewhere around 2700 or so ft lbs at the muzzle, IIRC.

They'd be plenty for black bear. I'd want something beefier for big grizzlies, though. From what I hear, many Alaskans tote either a 12 gauge with slugs or something chambered in a big magnum cartridge like .338 Winchester Mag for bear medicine.

transformerguru
April 5, 2008, 10:06 PM
I need to see if he is asking a complete question here. Dan are you asking about a M1 Garand or M1A/M14? The two are very different BUT similar actions. I see you asked about standard or scout that is why I asked. For mil. spec. ammo your 30.06 Garand, like previously posted, is around 2700 lbs. and the .308 M1A is around 2600 lbs. They are comparable but slightly different. The gas systems though in these semiautomatics make recoil tolerable.

Deaf Smith
April 5, 2008, 11:30 PM
Dan,

Either a M1 Garand or a M1A, in any of their 7.62x51 or 30-06 incantations will wax any bear's arse.

You can get 200 grain bullets if you feel you need the penitration for even a Brown bear.

And with 8 to 20 shots, all quick ones, they are real good bear stoppers.

GRIZ22
April 5, 2008, 11:34 PM
Somewhere around 2700 or so ft lbs at the muzzle, IIRC.


That's 2700 fps at the muzzle with a 150 grain bullet which is 2400 ft/lbs. This is military ammo and would be a little less with a 7.62 NATO in a M1A. I'll leave the rest to the bear experts.

You risk damaging the oprod with any bullets over 170 gr.

eldon519
April 6, 2008, 12:01 AM
If your quarry is bear, consider an FAL. I personally like the M1A more than the FAL, but as several folks have mentioned, the M1 and M1A/M14 are both designed to operate with military specification ammunition. The FAL has an adjustable gas system which would probably hold up better in the long run if you wanted to use heavy bullets for penetration on big bears. They also tend to be a little cheaper too.

jpwilly
April 6, 2008, 02:42 AM
There are adjustable gas plugs that will allow you to tune the gas system of your M1 or M1A to use heavy bullets / hunting ammo without damage to your op rod and battering your bolt lugs. The adjustment is basically a bleed screw that allows the extra pressure out. One such gas plug is the Schuster, Midway USA (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=777146&t=11082005)sells them. I have one in my rifle.

dmftoy1
April 6, 2008, 08:07 AM
I can't believe that no one has said "Welcome to the board!"

I always love a good "Bear Defense" thread. I've used it to purchase a couple of handguns over the last couple of years . .you never know when griz might come to central Illinois. :)

Samuel Adams
April 6, 2008, 09:58 AM
Having spoken to someone in Alaska very familiar with the local Ursidae, I was told that a 12 guage shotgun with slugs is the best defense for a bear attack. I also spoke with someone who dropped a charging Griz with his last round from a .303 Enfield.

boone052
April 6, 2008, 12:30 PM
I hunt elk in Northern Alberta, and like my 12 ga. with 000 Buck or slugs for bear defense. I like the 000 buck because I don't have to be as accurate (and would probably be scared stupid to see a bear in my tent), and you can't go wrong with slugs.

If your worried about money, get your rifle, then get a good, used shotgun (870 or 500 are cheap and plentiful) for a camp gun.

Just my 2 cents.

And welcome to the world of shooting! I bought my first rifle 15+ years ago with the intention of owning just one, and have 12 now. And counting...

Girodin
April 6, 2008, 01:32 PM
A recent study indicated that bear spray is more effective in stopping a charging bear than firearms. When I lived in north western MT this was the consesus as well.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2942217 here is a news report on the study.

If you are truelly worried about bears get the spray. It might be good to have a gun too. If you are looking to justify buying a gun, then I think a M1 would be a good bear gun.

GRIZ22
April 6, 2008, 01:35 PM
There are adjustable gas plugs that will allow you to tune the gas system of your M1 or M1A to use heavy bullets / hunting ammo without damage to your op rod and battering your bolt lugs. The adjustment is basically a bleed screw that allows the extra pressure out. One such gas plug is the Schuster, Midway USA sells them. I have one in my rifle.__________________

They work well but don't you need to readjust them if you're going from a heavy load to a standard load?

kragluver
April 6, 2008, 02:11 PM
None of the high velocity cartridges would be my first choice for large bear. The shotgun recommendations are good, but I would use a slug, not buckshot. Get a .45-70, .444 Marlin or .450 Marlin levergun. You want something that has deep penetration and a bullet that makes a large hole. The lighter weight bullets out of the '06 won't penetrate reliably enough. A 220 gr bullet would be a better choice in the '06, but you can't shoot these out of an M1.

BoilerUP
April 6, 2008, 02:24 PM
I'll sell you a nice, 20ish year old Remington 742 in 30-06 that shoots modern factory ammunition just fine.

You'll only have 4 shots but you'll have them quickly, and it it shoots 220gr round-noses quite well up to 100 yards. I imagine it'd do equally as well if not better with a more advanced bullet.

jgo296
April 6, 2008, 02:33 PM
lets see they used to commonly kill elephant with one round out of an ak-47 so i believe youll be fine with a 308 on bear

woodybrighton
April 6, 2008, 03:05 PM
I also spoke with someone who dropped a charging Griz with his last round from a .303 Enfield.
:eek:
i'm glad I live somewhere theres no wildlife that can eat me

Cosmoline
April 6, 2008, 03:22 PM
The .308 and .30'06 are OK for bear, but the FMJ ball ammo M1's are set up to shoot are NOT APPROPRIATE for hunting anything bigger than a coon, let alone defending against a bear. You can kill a bear with one, but not reliably.

You likely want to load with expanding rounds of 200 grains or heavier.

danweasel
April 6, 2008, 05:36 PM
Thanks a lot guys,

Yeah I was unclear. I was asking about the M1A not the Garand. Although I would love to one of those too. I really am not all that into hunting but I love to fish in the backwoods so I don't really want to drop too much money on a nice hunting rifle... I think I'm gonna get some bear spray, a shotgun and some slugs. I still want an M1A though. Does the scout's barrel lose a lot of power by being 6" shorter?

This site is fantastic,

Dan

SlamFire1
April 6, 2008, 05:40 PM
A recent study indicated that bear spray is more effective in stopping a charging bear than firearms. When I lived in north western MT this was the consesus as well.

From what I have read on sites that deal with Grizzly bears, that is true statement. Especially with regards to handguns. I read a statistic that showed that Handgunners who did not kill their bear first shot had a very angry bear to deal with.

What I recall, it is common for bears to charge as an intimidation technique. Pepper spray would be a non lethal technique for human and bear, assuming the bear gets the message.

Of course, if you are the person who kept stalking a Sow and her cubs to take pictures, even as the Sow tried to get her cubs away, from what I read, the last pictures where of an fed up bear coming towards the Camera. I don’t think pepper spray would have worked in that situation.

Cosmoline
April 6, 2008, 05:49 PM
I think I'm gonna get some bear spray, a shotgun and some slugs

That's a better bet. I've tried a lot of things but my favorite for AK fishing was a Mossberg 500 with a slugster barrel (tight choke, no rifling) firing Brenneke 12 ga magnum hardcasts. Don't load with deer slugs.

akodo
April 6, 2008, 06:56 PM
A recent study indicated that bear spray is more effective in stopping a charging bear than firearms. When I lived in north western MT this was the consesus as well.

#1 that study is for black bears, which are very very different that grizzlies and attacks are much less likely and much shorter.

#2 they didn't test guns, they just extrapolated on supposed incidents in which the bear was only wounded by the gun and enraged. I don't buy it.

#3 they talk about putting out a wide path of bearspray in front of the bear, but I have never seen bearspray that can really go very far. A charging grizz can close ground FAST.

Each tool has their place. If someone is totally ignorant of firearms bearspray is probably better than a gun that simply acts as a noise-maker. If one runs across a nusanse bear, spray is probably a great choice. However for an oncoming grizz, give me the gun.

dmftoy1
April 6, 2008, 09:41 PM
A recent study indicated that bear spray is more effective in stopping a charging bear than firearms.

Reminds me of the old joke:

The guide bent down and examined the scat and said to the tenderfoot "that's from a brown bear". The tenderfoot said "How do you know?" The guide said "because you can smell the berries".

A little bit further down the trail the guide saw another pile and bent down to examine it. He said "This one is from griz". The tenderfoot again asked him how he knew. The guide said "Because it has bells in it and smells like pepper spray"

jpwilly
April 7, 2008, 01:12 AM
They work well but don't you need to readjust them if you're going from a heavy load to a standard load?

Yes, but the screw clicks every quarter turn so you can count. Going from one setting to another setting isn't magic.

Aint Life Garand
April 7, 2008, 02:36 AM
If you want a M1 Garand for bear defense, how about one of these:
http://www.mccannindustries.com/rifles/458garand/458garand.html

jackdanson
April 7, 2008, 02:43 AM
Or do you mean an m1 carbine? oh jeez

eldon519
April 7, 2008, 08:35 AM
Reminds me of the old joke:

The guide bent down and examined the scat and said to the tenderfoot "that's from a brown bear". The tenderfoot said "How do you know?" The guide said "because you can smell the berries".

A little bit further down the trail the guide saw another pile and bent down to examine it. He said "This one is from griz". The tenderfoot again asked him how he knew. The guide said "Because it has bells in it and smells like pepper spray"

I thought brown bears and grizzlies were the same thing?

futureranger
April 8, 2008, 09:47 PM
even with 8 shots i dont know if id want to go up against a grizzly with a M1 Garand, mine drops deer fine with milspec 150 grain's and it would probably stop a black bear pretty fast, but a angry grizzly bear... id want a slug followed up by some 00 buck

danweasel
April 12, 2008, 02:45 AM
That .458 is insane! But I could never afford that/

If you enjoyed reading about "Springfeild M1 muzzle energy? Bear Defense?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!