[joey93turbo]

Hey guys, I'm new here and pretty new to the gun world. I'm moving back to where I grew up and it's definately not the nicest place on earth. I'm going to take a class soon and get my permit to carry. By chance I just sold an extra car and I have somewhere around $350 to spend on a handgun.

This is what I'm looking for in a gun:

- Compact and easy to conseal (shorts & tshirt).
- Reliable.
- Easy to use (I'm fairly new).
- Perferably a cheap round so I won't break the bank practicing.

Any feedback would be appreciated, thanks guys!

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

I would recommend simplicity (no safety) and a strong enough trigger pull that special carry methods aren't necessary.

So, a DA/SA pistol like a Makarov would be nice. Or a .380 bersa.

For a 9mm, the chopped CZ PCR.

[joey93turbo]

I really don't think I'd be comfortable carrying a gun without a safety.

I read that thread about the Bersa .380's and it seems that people like them, would one of those be a good choice? how spendy are .380 rounds compared to 9mm or .45? does the .380 have enough stopping power?

[Berg01]

Given your limited experience and budget, I'd go with a Revolver, which is how many of us got started, and frankly it is a tried and true approach for a beginner. Folks who start off with wheelguns can often evolve into pretty good shooters if they practice. The inherent accuracy of a good revolver is a very good confidence builder for a young shooter. A 4" bbl. Ruger GP-100 .357 Magnum (you can also shoot .38 Specials with it) would be perfect; the guns are solid, dependable, and plentiful at you price range. At $350.00, you might negotiate a NIB deal. or perhaps a used one for less than $300.00, which gives you money for a holster & ammo. The Basic Handgun Safety Course and carry permit are great ideas; check you local gun ranges, shooting clubs, and /or the NRA website for info.

Good Luck, shoot safely & legally, and have fun doing it!

[MJRW]

Berg, I slightly disagree with. GP-100, yes. 4", no. The 3" would be easier to conceal and draw and doesn't have adjustable sights to be mucked with. I love my 4" GP-100, and do carry it. But I really think the 3" would be better for his stated goals.

Joey, the Bersa .380 is a fine pistol. One of the best deals in handguns, imo. However, the .380 round isn't as powerful as any of its bigger brothers by nearly any stretch. It would ouch a person. I don't believe in "stopping power." I believe in holes. Width and depth of the hole. I also tend to look at muzzle energy to figure out which would ouch more. But stopping power is way too dependent upon these factors as well as the target. Too many variables to figure out.

The Bersa is a nice accurate, small, lightweight, ergonomic pistol. It does however have that .380 nip right at the web of your thumb. It won't be as comfortable to shoot as a non-lightweight revolver. .380 ammo tends to run about the same price as .38 ammo, give or take a dollar. It isn't as cheap as 9mm can be with those Wal-mart value packs. Those are priced all sorts of silly cheap. For me locally , .38 costs $10.50/50, .380 is $9.95/50, and 9mm is $10.97/100.

If you can't find a 9mm you are comfortable with if ammo costs is a concern, then I second the notion of a GP-100 but in a 3". Ruger SP-101s and some Smith & Wesson j-frame snub revolvers can be had for about $350 used. These are both 5-shot revolvers, although there are dozens of variations in the j-frame. Heck, looking at it, any of these are good options.

Edited to add: Bersa .380s can be found sub $200 used. Only problem is finding holsters can be taxing.

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

Joey,

A safety can be a liability if you forget to remove it. Also, no normal DA revolver has one. I was just suggesting you find an auto that carries like a revolver.

[joey93turbo]

Hey I appreciate the advice. I have owned and fired quite a few revolvers, I guess I should have stated that. I'm ready for an auto. So the .380 is too small, any recommendations for a 9mm or a .45 that fits my description of what I'd like? I have a couple friends with glock 30's and 36's. They seem to like them but I've heard mixed things about them.

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

You posted a $350 limit. The CZ handgun I mentioned is one of the few smallish 9mm arms that fall into that category. Glock, Sig, Beretta and others start at $500.

I just recalled the RAP 401 pistol. This all steel bargain is a relatively small, high quality DA/SA gun made in S. Africa. Probably, your best bet for a competent and potent carry gun on your budget.

[Deepdiver]

I'd second what Berg01 said - concealable revolver in a decent caliber (smallest would be a 38spc but .357mag preferred).

[usnavymasterchief]

What BERG 01 said, start out with a revolver. For your $350 you should be able to pick up a good S&W J frame or Ruger SP101 in .357 Magnum. Both are really great guns and with care will last a lifetime. You can shoot .38spl in them very cheaply using Wally Word Winchester White Box. Nice thing about revolvers is that they aren't finicky about what you feed them a lot of semi autos are very finicky about ammo.
Go to the revolver section of this forum, read and heed Jim March's "sticky" on buying a used revolver, really informative. You could buy a new Taurus for your money and they are OK but you would be far better off with a carefully selected used S&W J frame or Ruger SP101.
Resist the urge to buy a large revolver in a cannon caliber keep it light and simple, after you are comfortable with the revo you might want to look at a semi auto or two but please, start out simple and reliable, the revolver is the way to go.

[joey93turbo]

I just don't wanna carry a revolver :)

$150 isn't much more if I'm going to be carrying it daily. I'd rather pay a little more and get a decent gun. Say I did spend $500, what would you recommend then?

[usnavymasterchief]

OK, I tried. You don't want a revolver, go for a Glock in 9mm.

[cslinger]

..............COUGH.357REVOLVERSNUBBYJFRAMESP101COUGH..........

Sorry I had a revolver in my throat.

For 500 I would go SIG239 should be able to find one used or even a decent deal on a new one. .40 or .357 SIG.

SIG P225. Single Stack 9mm. Should be able to find a used one in that range.

Glock 26,27,36,30,............20021836 whatever there are a bunch of those little buggers. $485 new on average, cheap magazines, reliable to a fault, ugly enough to scare off an attacker.

CZ PCR, P01, Compact. Figure $400-$450ish. Great guns. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

Used Smith 3913 or 4013 or any of their small single stacks. I hear pretty good things about the Chiefs Special offerings but the first two are almost SIG quality........almost.

Used KAHR K40, K9 etc. Very small, good reputation........I have no practical experience so take this one at face value.

.......COUGHJFRAME.357........... Sorry I must be coming down with something.

Chris

:D

[Rick Daniel]

I'd go with the Glock G26 9mm.

[joey93turbo]

I've heard good things about the Kahr's, what do you guys think?

[10-Ring]

Here's another recommendation for a revolver. Simple to use, reliable & a 357 magnum is a proven caliber. Get a nice used S&W 19, a nice leather holster, some practice ammo & range time and your set! Good luck

[MJRW]

Kahrs are good (not as good imo as a sp-101 or j-frame), but pricey (much more than a sp-101 or j-frame). I would say Sig P239 (unless they have a Sig SP-101) or Glock 19 (unless glock makes a j-frame). Glock 26 (think j-frame sized) isn't that much more concealable, its the same thickness, but its not as much fun at the range (not as much from as a snubby revolver).

[joey93turbo]

Hahaha, thanks for the info. How long did it take you to write that? :P

[gbelleh]

A Kahr would make a great carry gun. The polymer Kahrs are really small and light. My PM9 has performed very well and is amazingly accurate. I would trust it for CCW, but some people are still not convinced that Kahr has worked out the problems with their polymer frames. The all steel Kahrs are great, but heavy for their size. If you use a good holster, any Kahr (all steel or polymer frame) will conceal very well.

[MCNETT]

If I were in your shoes, I would go with either a Glock 26 or Glock 27. I have the G26 and it is a great little carry gun.
-mike

[joey93turbo]

Well it sounds like it's between one of the glock models, a kahr, and possibly a sig. At this time I'm leaning toward the Kahr because of the good things I've heard about them, and the fact that I haven't really heard any bad things. What are the different Kahr models out there and which would be best for me?

[Gary H]

Revolver every time in the lower price range. The reason for this is that semi-autos that feed perfectly cost money and should you find an inexpensive one that feed perfect, you must put through at least 200 rounds of carry ammo to find out that it works without any problems. Good defensive ammo is expensive. A good revolver goes bang every time. That said, you might be able to find a used Kahr K-9, or K-40 for your price. FYI: Ammoman.com now has a sale on Speer Gold Dot .40 x 1000 rounds at less than $200 shipped. Now, that is a great deal, but it does cut down on the budget.

If you can't be sure of reliability, then you are foolish to buy a semi-auto.

Next, you might consider doing what my dad has been doing prior to carrying. He has made consistent weekly trips to the range and shot from the holster each time. That is six-months worth of shooting, range fees and ammo.

I know.. TMI

can you say:

REVOLVER

[New_comer]

I would have to agree, a revolver is best for newbies, 38 spl +p or even in 357 magnum would be more than sufficient for SD/HD.

A lot of excellent platforms to choose from. Just don't stray from the known brands, either new or used, and you'll be okay. ;)

[joey93turbo]

I don't want a revolver. If I have to spend more to get a decent auto I will, but glocks are under $500 and I hear of alot of people that carry them and seem happy with them.

[Mal H]

Kahr does make fine pistols and you won't go wrong with one. But please do yourself a favor and at least take a look at the SIG P239 as cslinger suggested. It is about as reliable a pistol as you'll find. I would suggest a 9mm since ammo cost is going to be a factor. Do a search here on P239 and see what others have to say about it.

[usnavymasterchief]

I own a Kahr K40 (.40 cal) and I like it very much. Mine is all stainless and as previously mentioned, is a little heavy but not that bad. Much like the Glock, it has no "controls" to mess with your head in an emergency. Mine has Trijicon night sights which I most highly recommend. It has been said that a Kahr is put together like a Swiss watch. Mine runs 100% and is my every day carry gun. I also have a Glock 33 (.357sig) which is a great piece also but I do believe the trigger action on the Kahr is superior to the Glock. Also the Glock grip is like holding a 2X4 in your hand because of the double stack magazines. BUT, in all honesty, I would not recommend the Kahr or the Glock as a newbie's first carry gun. They are both fine guns but very easy to make a serious or even deadly mistake with. The light trigger action is the problem here. A newbie could easily shoot himself or someone else accidently, whereas on a D/A piece like a revolver you have to take a deliberate action to pull the trigger and fire the gun. If you can find a Glock with a "New York Trigger" you might be better off. A N.Y. trigger is set around ( I think ) 7# while a stock Glock is 5# this was required by NYPD to help prevent accidental discharge when drawing from a holster.
In an earlier post to you I said get a Glock 9mm and as other posters have said, there are better guns available but dollar for dollar I believe that Glock is the way to go for you. For me, I prefer the feel of all metal guns with the Kahr coming out on top in the moderate price range. Keep in mind, in the world of semi-autos, $500.00 is only in the lower half of the moderate price range. Mine has an MSRP of $733.00 and that's not considered expensive but it is to me.
Good luck in your search, go to a range that rents guns, try a few and find one that feels good to you.

[joey93turbo]

Now I'm gettin some good info :)

Is it possible to take a Kahr or Glock and have a shop put a 7# trigger on it?

[Gary H]

Joey:

I'm getting the impression that you haven't done much shooting. Find a range that rents out guns. Many times, you pay $10, or so to rent as many as you want. You just take one at a time. Nobody and I mean nobody can tell you what gun is best for you. I have had many Glocks. I have now sold some and have others in the safe. It isn't that I don't like them, it is just that I don't consider them safe next to my bed, but perfectly good from a holster. I shoot a 1911 and H&K P7's a bit better. You need to try. My dad just settled on a P-99 and for him it is the perfect carry gun. I gave him a Kahr K-9, offered a Glock, a P7M8 and offered to buy him a Valtro, but after shooting MANY guns, he found the Walther P-99 to be his gun. He wasn't comfortable shooting the Kahr and racking the slide. Now, he really likes his Smith & Wesson M66 and LadySmith M60. He is just getting into the Walther and calls me every day to tell me how he loves the gun. You might hate the Walther...try them first.

[joey93turbo]

I definately plan on going to shoot the guys recommended to me in this thread if I can find a range near me tht does that. That's going to be the deciding factor for me, the feel and how well I like the gun. I'm just trying to get some recommendations so when I walk in I'll have an idea.

Someone also recommended a used Kimber, what about those?

[usnavymasterchief]

Yes a good gunsmith can make a modification to a Glock to give it a heavier trigger action. Go to www.glocktalk.com and you'll find out everything you want to know about Glocks, pro and con.
The Kahr has a trigger slightly heavier than a Glock but is much smoother and doesn't have that funky "ping" that the Glocks have. IMHO Kahr is a better gun than a Glock, I own both but I aint no expert, that's just my opinion

[joey93turbo]

Yeah I really like the things I'm hearing about Kahr's. I'd like to shoot a couple models, a couple glocks, and a sig 229 like they recommended earlier in this thread. Any comment on the Kimber?

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

Joey,

The Sig was what I first had in mind when I mentioned a simple DA/SA gun with no safety.

The 239 or similar sized 225 are fantastic handguns in most every regard.

I would tend to shy away from the Glock because the trigger is a little intolerant (it's light.) Same with Kahr, which have also gotten too pricey of late (they used to be around $300). The Springfield XD compact also tends toward too light a trigger.

Someone mentioned that CZ PCR again, which is nice.

The basic S&W autos, like the 908, are compact and reliable, and not much over $400.

And I would still consider the bargain RAP 401.

Do a search on any of those guns and you'll hear many satisfied buyers.

[cslinger]

Kimber makes great guns but........and I know I am going to get a lot of flack for this........but.........the smaller 1911s always seem to be more prone to malfunctions then other models of gun. I am not saying they are jam-o-matics just that they tend to be more likely to hang up. They will also be pricy even used.

The Sig you want to look at is a P239 in whatever caliber floats your boat. It is stone reliable, as accuarate as a full sized gun and very very thin. Personally I think the thickness is harder to conceal than a guns over all size.

I have heard enough bad about the polymer Kahrs to at least be a bit wary. I have heard little to no bad about the steel ones.

Your best bang for the buck is going to lie with Glock or one I forgot to mention the Springfield XD compact. This little guy is a 9mm the size of a G26, maybe a tad bigger but can be found in the $400-$450 range. Good little guns with a little more built in saftey then a Glock with the addition of a 1911 style grip safety. Personally I feel the trigger is better than a Glock also.

By the way has anybody mentioned a Jframe sized revolver.:evil: :neener: Mine sees alot of carry.

[joey93turbo]

Awesome man, I'm gonna go around to a few gun shops this weekend and check out some models. Is there a reason you didn't recommend the Kahr?

[cslinger]

I didn't not recommend KAHR, I just don't have enough practical experience with them to really give them a yay or nay. I know the steel ones have a pretty bullet proof rep but they seem to cost more than a Glock when I see them.

Simply as a cost benefit analysis I really think that Glocks and the XD are probably the most concealed carry auto you are going to get for the money and I would probably say Glock wins out due to it's extremely durable tenifer finish.

Now on a personal note.......I don't really like Glocks. I had a G30 that was a spectacular gun and I did like it but it the trigger doesn't do it for me and I am really more of a fan of double/single action decockers ala SIG, CZ 75BD,PCR,P01 etc.

Glocks are good guns, very good guns. Just not my cup of tea but my unbiased gut reaction is that they come the closest to meeting your original budget while at the same time providing you with a superior firearm, especially for your intended purpose. I also feel that you could find a used Glock for a very good price and still have a great gun without much worry if it will work.

Now my biased answer is get the SIG P239. In .40 I think that is one of the finest CCW autos out there. Trigger pull is heavy enough to be safe but very smooth and SIGs are the only guns I have ever shot that have NEVER malfunctioned for me.....well that and AK-47 varients but it's just not fair to compare reliability to an AK. :D

[joey93turbo]

Sounds to me like I really need to be checking out this Sig P239...

[Pumpkinheaver]

Double action .38spl for the newbie.

[CWL]

If you want a bigger, full frame gun, then a CZ-75, Ruger P-series semiauto would fit into your lower-end pricing reqs.

For a bit more, Kahr and Glocks.

I like the trigger on my stainless K9 much better than the 3 Glocks I've owned (still have 2), but I think that Glocks will wear better in high-humidity/wet areas. If you are gonna be in OR, that should be seriously considered.

My stainless Kahr came NIB with rust stains and I'm not the only one, while I've never seen more than holster wear on a Glock frame.

[MJRW]

Joey,

The Sig P239 has always been the #2 gun on my list. I just have yet to find one at a price I want to pay. I'm a cheap bastard and it is purely want, it doesn't fill a need. It is an excellent piece. But don't overly concern yourself with the size of the gun. Width, weight, and grip length to me are far more important in concealing than the overall size. I find I can conceal full size 1911, glock 19, j-frame, and a bersa .380 about the same. Heck, once all at the same time. Holster, carry position, and attitude are far more important than anything else in concealment. This is something for you to consider when shopping. I would suggest this method of approaching gun purchase:

1. Find all guns by all reputable manufacturers in your price range.
2. Pick them all up and decide which ones you like.
3. Shoot those guns in calibers you are considering and decide which ones you like.
4. Compare features on all guns and have a few that you would like to buy. This is where the size of the gun finally comes into play.
5. Go to a bunch of shops or a shop you know and trust or someone you know knows and trusts. Play with the guns remaining on your list.
6. Go home. The one you think about the most is the one you should get.

[joey93turbo]

That's some really good advice. When I get home tonight i'm going to make a list of all the auto's in this thread that have been recommended to me and begin to research each of them. I think the best caliber for me would probably be 9mm since it's a relatively cheap round and I'll also be using this gun to take up in the woods and shoot.

[joey93turbo]

I picked up a gun mag on my break and I was looking at a couple guns. Just wondering what people thing about the Springfield Ultra-Compact 1911-A1 and the Kimber Ultra Carry II?

[Futo Inu]

In your price range with your criteria, SelfProclaimedExpert hit the nail on the head. Other recommendations are nice, but not in your price range. The springfield xd in 9mm or .40 is good if you're willing to up the ante. You can in fact put a "New York" trigger (8 lbs), or a New York Plus (12 pounds) pretty cheaply and easily on Glocks. But you said you wanted manual safety, and Glocks don't, so......

[joey93turbo]

Yeah I'm sorta shying away from Springfield now cause of some of the quality issues I've read about on here.

I would like a manual safety but it's not a requirement.

[Sheslinger]

Make sure you check out Walther P99. By far my favorite handgun ever. You might hate it but try to check it out and shoot if possible. I haven't seen them for rent but you might know someone who owns one. At the very least go to a shop and play with one.

Other than that, check out compact Springfield XD in any of the calibers. I like them better than Glocks... (covering head, running away, dodging stones).

As far as external safety goes, it's your choice after all, but, to me, manual safety is an extra thing to remember in a stress situation when you have to react almost on instinct and I'd rather draw the gun and pull the trigger.

Just my two cents worth.

Sheslinger

[MJRW]

Why the compact 1911s? Full-size isn't that much more to conceal.

[Logistar]

You might check out the Taurus PT-111 Pro. It is pretty small and light... 9mm 10+1!! .... should be in your price range. It has a manual safety as well as a keylock. (I think you said you wanted a manual safety.) I love my PT-111. Accurate, perfectly reliable at around 750 rounds so far.

That said, there were some complaints about some of the earlier models and customer service may not be the best. -Might be worth checking into if you are stuck at around $350 and want a new semi-auto. I would want some feedback from the newer models first though.

Logistar

[joey93turbo]

I was just looking at one cause it looked pretty small.


I think I've narrowed it down by now. The contenders are:

1) Sig P239 (dunno which caliber)

2) Kahr K9 (maybe K40)

3) Glock 26



I'm going to the gun store this weekend to check them out and hold them. If the Sig feels good that's probably the one I'll end up getting. What caliber do you guys recommend for carry and recreational use?

[J Hoss]

Glocks and Sigs are good. Consider the Walther P99. If you shop around, you can find them under $500

[Ky Larry]

Don't rule out the smaller CZ's (PCR, Compact 75B, P-01) in 9mm. IMO they shoot as well as anything costing twice as much and are reliable as any off the shelf gun made. Also the KP95DC Ruger is a very good value. There's a $40.00 rebate on the Ruger right now. My local gunshop has a KP95DC for $320.00 NIB .When you get your rebate check go to Wally World and get 400 rounds of WWB and have some fun. My $0.02 worth.

[cslinger]

Well the SIG 239 shines in .40/.357 SIG. It is a little big for a single stack 9mm. Walmart seems to be selling 165 grain .40 ammo for $15/100 which ain't bad.

If 9mm is where you want to go, figure say $11/100 then I would go Glock 26. 10 rounds, itty bitty, stone reliable and have I mentioned ugly, but I say that in a good way.

KAHRs I would also suggest a .40 since you are limited to single stack and a relatively small ammo supply.

Now I am only making those suggestions based on the economy of size in the guns mentioned. This is not a 9mm vs .40 issue. I carry a single stack 9mm quite frequently loaded with +P 124 grain hollow points so I am comfortable with it. I do admit to feeling a bit better armed with the .40 capacity being the same but it is strictly a personal feeling.

LET ME SCREAM THIS!!! I AM NOT STARTING A CALIBER WAR. EITHER 9MM OR .40 QUALITY AMMO WILL DO THE JOB. :scrutiny:

[atek3]

Not to ruffle any feathers, but all this talk of ultra heavy trigger pulls=safety is absurd. New York PD installed New York triggers because it was a heck of a lot cheaper than giving all their cops good training. If you keep your finger outside the trigger guard until your sights are on the target you aren't going to have an ND (negiligent discharge) while drawing or holstering. These guns don't fire themselves. Heavy triggers don't make guns more safe, however, they do make it much harder to hit small and/or far targets.

Also while you are considering which gun to get spend twice as much time thinking who's training you're going to attend. Carry Gun and Newbie... I'm just getting chills. I'm not saying you need to be mr. 4-gun combat master, but 2 days of quality instruction will make you safer and better than half the gun owners in this country regarding practical pistol usage.

Consider taking Sept 13th and going to Insights Training Center for their basic handgun class.
The class runs from 8am-6pm and covers a lot for a one day class. They provide the guns and ammo so you'll likely get to try a few different pieces on for size.

http://www.insightstraining.com/ps/courses/hand/basic.htm

I've never been to insights so I can't vouch, but one of my friends has, he said they were excellent.

atek3

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

Atek,

Who's recommending "ultra heavy trigger pulls"? Some of us are recommending pistols with normal DA triggers, like most police and military have used for a century. Have you ever shot a Sig?

I recommended against "ultra" light trigger pulls like in the standard Glock because they require very good habits; habits someone new is going to need time to develop. And it isn't just new shooters who have ran afoul of the Glock and its unblocked SA weight trigger.

I'm willing to bet this isn't the first discussion of the relative safety of Glock type trigger systems on this forum - it happens on all forums. But there is no need to exagerate the difficulty in controlling a DA trigger at combat ranges. It's just not a problem.

[cslinger]

I like double action decockers it is just what I am comfotable with. Don't like the Glock trigger both from a lightness to the fact that I just don't like the way it feels when I pull it. I also like an external hammer.

Based on all that, I still think the Glock 26, 27, 30 or 36 is the way this guy should go. You just need to be aware that Glocks, like any guns, require training on their manual of operations and that Glock triggers are a little less forgiving to screwups. I also don't care for guns that require you to pull the trigger to break them down. Not big deal but a preferance.

Once again I think based on Joey93turbo's requirements a small Glock is about the best bang for his buck. But he should be aware of the things he should be careful with regarding the Glocks quirks and manual of arms, just like my SIGs have quirks and certain aspects I need to be aware of.

I don't like Glocks but I am not a Glock basher. I mean just because they suck doesn't mean I should bash them right?:rolleyes: :D :neener:

[MJRW]

Joey,

Please please please don't discount the Glock 19. The size difference between the 19 and 26 makes almost no difference in concealability but makes an big difference in shootability.

[Matthew_Q]

I'd second or third or to whatever degree the Bersa Thunder .380.

$199 in most places. Order a couple more mags and get ammo to practice with. Finding a holster might be a little tough, but the Thunder 380 is getting popular. I think Comp-tac makes a few Kydex holsters.

Benefits:

Lightweight, small, accurate, inexpensive gun, inexpensive ammo.


Drawbacks: It's not a J frame snubby (I don't even have one, but I gotta go witht the theme)


People might dog it since it's a 380, but a hit with a 380 is better than a miss with a .45!

[joey93turbo]

Atek thanks alot for that link, I think I'll register for that class. I was looking for a class to take but wasn't sure which one was best.

MJRW, I'll check out the Glock 19 while I'm at the gun shop.

I think there's a range near me that rents guns, I'm going to go find out. I definately want to hold and hopefully shoot all these that you guys are suggesting to find the one that I like best.

[ojibweindian]

My carry gun is a CZ-75. I now have a little over 1000 rounds through it and have yet to experience any failures. Accuracy is pretty darn good, too.

Another good one is the Browning Hi-Power. A beautiful weapon, reliable, and lots of standard capacity magazines are still around.

[atek3]

I'm going to have to differ on the 26/19 debate. A 19 is a LOT more shootable, but you can't ankle or pocket carry it.
For a first gun a glock 26 would likely be a handful. But for a more experienced shooter, one might conceal it with the small mags that come w/ and have larger mags with grip extentions as backups, because any time you need to reload in a gun fight, the more control you have over your firearm, the better.

atek3

[antediluvianist]

Get a stainless (for the sweat) S&W snubby in .38spl. Use +P rounds. One more vote for a revolver.

[MyRoad]

I rented a Kahr MK9 at my local range (I don't own a Kahr). I didn't like it at all, the trigger pull was long and felt about 8#. When I mentioned that to someone, they told me that I should look at the "Elite" models, that they have a much lighter, better, trigger. I'm not saying that you should go for the Elite model per se, just be sure which model you are renting so you know what your firing. Also, the range near me does not take very good care of its rental guns -- some do, some don't -- something else to keep in mind.

Lastly, if you do not have a gun that you are familiar with, if you do not have good training, and/or if you do not have a good holster system worked out (tested and practiced), just MHO, but if you don't have these criteria than carrying can be more of a liability than a benefit.

Be careful, practice often.

[billcameron]

Well first let us not forget he wants to conceal under a T shirt. People vary on what they can conceal, but he really needs to check this out before purchase. However, few people in my experience can conceal a K frame smith or ruger GP-100 under a T shirt. Also he wants cheap practice ammo and a reliable defensive caliber. I think this means 9mm in auto or 38/357 in revolver. I also suspect he may want something that is fun to shoot and that he can hit paper target or cans with at 25yds and maybe he also wants something that he could be somewhat competitive with in IDPA or IPSC match. A revolver in an IDPA match would be tough for beginner and if in addition using small revolver (ie conceals under T shirt) he would be at a real disadvantage. In my limited experience Kahrs are accurate, but hard to shoot accurately, esp fast shooting. Same goes for J frame smiths, that I have more experience with as I presently own four. To meet all his criteria I think a 9mm along lines of sig 239 or glock 26 is way to go. But consider sig 225 and glock 19 if he can conceal adequately under Tshirt, which is one of his primary criteria. For most people these somewhat larger guns handle better. I carry a glock 26 or 27. I have installed a NY 1 trigger spring and retained standard connector. This makes trigger heavier, but to me less creep and better break. I like heavier pull as I use inside the waistband holster. My major concern is a piece of shirt getting caught just right (or just wrong if you will) on trigger and trigger safety. I feel a heavier pull gives me some extra margin of safety. Also if you hold person at gunpoint you should keep finger off trigger, but we are all human and the finger may go to trigger. Again a heavier pull gives you some added margin for error. A NY 1 trigger spring runs around $3 - the postage will probably set you back more than cost of item. I can change out trigger spring in far less time than it took me to write this post.

[usnavymasterchief]

JOEY, Sigs are fantastic guns BUT you'll have to take a second mortgage on your house to afford one. Most used ones have been work horses and have been rode hard, but buying any used gun is a crap shoot.
I only have three more words of advise for you KAHR, KAHR and KAHR. Oh yeah three more to remember STAINLESS, STAINLESS and STAINLESS.
Three words to forget, POLYMER, POLYMER and POLYMER.
Good Luck Joey just get what feels good to you. I still think it should be a revolver.
John

[Mastrogiacomo]

The Beretta compact type M. Slender grip, accurate, easy to strip for cleaning, fun to use, little recoil and the 9mm allows you a lot of practice time. I've got two at the moment and looking to buy more. :D

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

Masterchief,

If a Sig 239 is a little over $500, and a Kahr is a little over $500, why is the Sig too expensive and the Kahr just right?

The 239 is not as expensive as other Sigs because it was made here, but it is still a Sig and 95% the same as any other Sig 22X gun.

[usnavymasterchief]

SELF PROCLAIMED EXPERT Go to www.gunfinder.net They are a cost +10% dealer. Prices to follow:
Sig 232 .380 (stainless) $562.99
Sig 239 $596
Sig 239-40BSS $694.99 (stainless)
Sig 229 9mm $769
Sig 229 sport $1497.00

Kahr K40 Stainless $583

I bought my Kahr K40 Stainless with Trijicon Nite Sites brand new at a gun show for $489 + 7%tax.
The Sigs are a little large to conceal under a t shirt. My Kahr K40 tucks in and disappears under a t shirt.
John

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

MC,

I guess it pays to shop around. The most common price I've seen on 239s is $520. Kahr K, MK, P and MP models range from $480 on up. This is in gun stores, or on Gunsamerica, just looking at NIB prices.

The Kahr used to be a bargain at about $350 or so. The E9 (economy version) is now over $400.

I would rather buy a noticeably cheap Sig than pay the price that Kahr, XD and Glock have inflated to over the last ten years. And it's not ordinary inflation, during that time Beretta and Sig stayed steady and Walther went down.

[Bravo11]

My turn with the 2 cents.
I recommend a Sig 239. I have a 9mm mainly because ammo is cheap and is doesn't cost me as much to go the range and have a good time. I use my 239 for a carry weapon but I really like to shoot my guns and 9's are fun. Next, if you like full size(gov't) 1911's don't be discouraged by thinking it won't conceal well, I've carried one with just a T-shirt plenty of times.
I looked(looking) at the Springfield XD and it may be my next purchase, most people I've talked to like them. Good luck and let us know what you end up getting.

[joey93turbo]

What do you guys think about the Colt Defender? I would eventually like to carry a .45 anyway, so would it be a bad idea to just spend a little extra now and get one?

[atek3]

kimber makes great 1911's but they are expensive

atek3

[joey93turbo]

Heh yeah I noticed. This colt is supposedly as good as the Kimber's but much cheaper.

[usnavymasterchief]

JOEY, You admittedly are a newbie to handguns. Now you are talking about guns the experts and old pros like to use. Remember, you have to crawl before you can run.
Carrying a .45 cal 1911 "cocked and locked" is cool but only for experienced shooters. 1911's for the most part are excellent guns for experienced people. Much like the Harley Davidsons of my generation (in the 50's and 60's) you had to be really good to ride one well and you had to be prepared to fix it when it broke. Most newbie riders couldn't do either.
Joey, have you attended any approved gun handling/safety classes? If so do you have a CCW license? Just out of curiosity, do you mind telling me how old you are? (By the way I'm 66 for what thats worth, been there done that, if you know what I mean.)
Only trying to help, not to burst your bubble. John

[Berg01]

Hey Bud, you're new to the game and welcome to it. This is the advice I got from my firearms instructor, who has enough NRA training and teaching certifications to stuff a three-ring binder. This is the best advice anyone can give you on the subject;

Before you start shopping, go enroll in a Basic Handgun Safety Course. After the course, ask the instructor for a recommendation on a firearm. In all likelihood, he will tell you to go out and rent or borrow any and every handgun, in every caliber from .22 LR to .45 ACP, and keep good mental notes (or even a small written journal) on what you like, and what you don't like about each one. Don't worry about what the gunrags, the gunstore commandos, or the forum dwellers say, the only opinion that counts is yours, the only person you have to impress is YOURSELF. I rented at least a dozen different guns before I bought my first one, and anytime I got invited to go out and shoot a different gun, I jumped at the chance.

The thing that got me hooked and keeps me hooked is that its FUN TO GO SHOOT GUNS. To me, everything else is secondary; if I'm enjoying myself, I want to keep doing it, and then maybe someday i'll get to the point where I can honstly say I'm good at it (I ain't there yet!).

[joey93turbo]

Thanks for the reality check John, you're right, I am getting ahead of myself. I am enrolled in two gun safety classes at them moment. After I take them I'm going to get the CCW license. I am 21.

[Felonious Monk]

Welcome Joey!

The members of this forum would be remiss if someone didn't step up and offer for your consideration a Kel-Tec P-11.
Smallest, lightest 9mm going.

Simple design, DAO trigger (like a J-Frame or SP-101), no BS external safeties (unlike a 1911), easy to "tweak" to be as good or better for a CCW than ANY europlastic SiGlocKoch on the market. And it takes S&W 59 and 69 series high-capacity mags (up to 15+1 rounds).
OEM night sights available
With an out the door price of around $250 depending on slide finish and night sights, you can get a nice holster and a fair amount of 9mm ammo to practice with, all for your ORIGINAL statement of wanting to spend $350.

Someone mentioned the Taurus PT-111. It's an inferior copy of the Kel-Tec design, and the KT's carry a lifetime warranty (honored even if you're the 2nd or 3rd owner).

Kel-Tec Support is the 'Best in the Business'.
Their head gunsmith, Marty, even hangs out at some of the gun forums (as "evilloki1").
You can ask him questions over at Kel-Tec Owner's Group forum, www.ktog.org/vbulletin, if you have any trouble with your guns, or want to learn more about them.

If you're fairly new to CCW, and want a small, reliable, semi-auto, this is it.
Or, buy a Kahr and spend twice the money for almost the same quality.
(Better put your flame suit on, young fella-- I just poured the Avgas.) ;)

[usnavymasterchief]

FELONIOUS MONK or Fignozzle, Did you change your handle or suddenly get religion?
Come on old Monkster, I own and carry both a P11 and a Kahr K40. Just to pour a little more gas on the fire, you and I both know the Kahr K40 at $489.00 new with Trijicons is well worth the $200.00 difference.
My Kahr ran 100% right out of the box. My P11 had to be fluffed and buffed and a trip back to the factory before it ran at 98%. The Kahr is all stainless while the P11 is part polymer. Out of the box, the Kahr trigger action is FAR superior to the P11.
By the time you have night sights installed, send the P11 back to the factory a couple of times to be repaired and to have the Hard Chrome slide installed that you should have bought in the first place. Do all the excellent mods that are outlined on the KTOG site (and they are good) you will have experienced a lot more down time and spent money which will bring you up very close to what the Kahr would have cost you in the first place.
The P11 is a great little hobby gun and I do enjoy mine but in a side by side comparison, an all stainless Kahr (not their polymer versions) will come out on top everytime.
Don't know many LEO's who carry P11's as a bug, many LEO's carry Kahr's.
Some of you KTOG'ers will view me as a turncoat and that simply is not true, I shoot and enjoy my P11 a lot, but IMHO it's not a great recommendation for a newbie's first handgun. The Kahr is a serious pistol in a serious caliber that comes clean, lubed and ready to go right out of the box. I can't say that for Kel-Tecs and I love em, I have 2 P32's and a P11 but unfortunately , Kahr's they aint.

[Rock45]

Now I'm not an expert, and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I have to fall back on where this thread started. 9mm is obviously a good choice due to ammo costs and ease to shoot. You seem to have been talked out of the 380 market, and now are leaning toward the 45 ACP as your first carry weapon. I own a Bersa 380, along with a Ruger GP100, KP95, and both a compact (3") and full size (5") 1911. I have holsters for all of them, still I leave the house the most with the 380. Smaller and lighter is better, and I can hit my target with the 380 as well as any of the rest.

There is not a dead guy alive that will scoff at you for killing them with a 380 instead of the preferred 45ACP.

[joey93turbo]

Well guys, I just went out and bought a Bersa Thunder .380. I don't know what I'll use it for, probably just recreation and a backup at my house, but it was only $229. Now I'm going to spend a little time and figure out what other gun I want to buy from the ones listed in this thread.

[Rock45]

That's a sure fire plan for success!
Oh, and don't forget a flashlight...(surefire)!
Enjoy the Bersa Thunder...
Hey, have you seen the Bersa Thunder 45?

Just asking!

[Felonious Monk]

Joey-- Bersa...a good first gun you won't be disappointed with.

usnavymasterchief-- I'm pretty well known as fig, but I LOVE the play on words Felonious Monk provides, and it encompasses so many things that I truly enjoy: Jazz, devotion to God, a little residual rebelliousness still left around the edges, and fun.
TMI, I'm sure.

BTW, you're probably right on your thinking re: the Kahr vs. the P11.

Regards,
FM/Fig

[The_Shootist]

Go with Ruger's SP 101 revolver, chambered in .357 and in the 3 1/8" barrel
configuration. You can carry and practice .38spl rounds until you have the confidence to use .357 ammo (although .38spl +P is probably all you need).

Its accurate, rugged and easily concealable - goes anywhere. My favorite CCW arm (and I like to carry a full size 1911, but an SP 101 conceals better in the Texas summers :D )

[sarge48]

Get a Makarov, buy a peirce grip, Hume Jit slide holster, 2-3 spare mags, a case of Barnaul hollowpoint ammo. Get Trained!

$175.00
$20.00
$24.00
$16.00
$105.00
____________

$340.00 (Please check my math)

P.S. Buy a good belt.

You will not be sorry. Good luck!:D

P.P.S. Bersa #2 choice.

[clubsoda22]

I have been impressed with my bersa .380 and so has everyone i've shown it too. I thought i saw someone say that it nips the web if your hand and this is not true for the bersa as it is it's walther and sig counterparts. The bersa has a bit of a tail on it that really helps keep your hand positioned correctly.

despite what some people say, the .380 does a good job as a self defence round. CorBon hollowpoints in .380 have plenty of stopping power. In a walking fire drill, I put 8 rounds into the head and neck of a shilouette target as i was walking forward, firing as fast as i could, starting at 15 yards ending at 10. Although you probably wouldn't get such results without some practice, it says a lot about the controlability of this gun. This gun has a safety, though with the long DA pull you won't have to use it.

A larger cartridge in a light plastic gun kicks like a mule to a new shooter. I had a friend who got a CCW and asked me to teach him how to shoot. he got an airweight .38. That gun had such a kick it almost scared him off of shooting. He couldn't hit a thing with it. Being a seasoned shooter the kick didn't bother me as much, but he had never even done target practice with a .22. I'm very eager to get him to try my bersa.