Best Riot Rifle


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Mauserguy
April 6, 2008, 05:41 PM
Here in California it is illegal to just drive around with a gun in the trunk of your car. The other day I had a conversation with my father about the best all around riot gun. This is a relevant topic since we never know when we urbanites will be stuck in a troubled situation.

Some fifteen years ago, uncle Eddie died. He was a good man. He fed his family during the depression, and ended up living in the same depression era house for sixty years. He was a hunter, carrying an old Krag in the field, and when he died, many family and friends gathered in his house to toast his memory. My parents were there, in south central Los Angeles.

When they left, they drove south, and made their way to the freeway. They got home and turned on the TV news. To their amazement, in one of the intersections that they drove through a truck driver was being beaten by Football Williams. They missed being stuck in the LA riots by about half an hour.

My dad insists that the M1 carbine would be the best civil unrest rifle. Iím thinking that a lever action would be ideal. What do you think is the best gun to have when the police want to arrest you and everybody else wants you dead?
Mauserguy

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BattleChimp Potemkin
April 6, 2008, 05:44 PM
All the civil rights movement pics always have a guy with an M1 Carbine (local cop or National Guard). While that may have been the most prevalent carbine available, it seems to be a good choice (I do not mean this as a bad statement regarding the Civil Rights movement, so dont construe it as such). High magazine capacity, ability to fire rapidly and reload rapidly, low ammunition cost and nice portability. The round itself is around a strong .38 special, so it will have a positive effect.

Atla
April 6, 2008, 05:54 PM
Saiga 12 guage. ;)

AJ Dual
April 6, 2008, 05:54 PM
An M1 carbine isn't a bad choice.

And at 100 yards the .30 carbine has about the same energy as a 3 or 4" .357 magnum at the muzzle. So it's really more the low end of intermediate rifle cartridges than the high-end of pistol calibers once it's in a 16" barrel.

notenoughtime3
April 6, 2008, 05:57 PM
Something reliable, rugged, easy to use and having a good capacity.

Military pattern rifles are ideal. AK, FAL, HK, M1A, ect.

Sorry to hear you are in California and are restricted from what you can own.

If I were in your shoes... I'd go with an M1 Garand, have the barrel shortened to 16", scout mount it, add a red dot or scope and maybe a tritium sight(if they make them).

It would be a very effective package.

Crow1108
April 6, 2008, 06:00 PM
I remember reading that during the LA riots, the SKS was pretty prominent. Shopkeepers used it to great effect to keep looters at bay. I'm not too sure if you can have them in CA nowadays, but an SKS with a case of ammo (and some stripper clips...I've seen the 30 round magazines cause too many malfunctions) could be had for the same price as an M-1 carbine.

notenoughtime3
April 6, 2008, 06:02 PM
+1 on the SKS, I forgot all about them.

Don't know if they are legal there either.

FPrice
April 6, 2008, 06:11 PM
Some people recommend the tried and true .30-30 in a good lever action rifle such as a Marlin. It is a powerful cartridge with good range and does not look nearly as "scary" as a military style rifle. They can be had at reasonable cost and ammunition is usually easy to find.

Hatchman
April 6, 2008, 06:14 PM
12 guage shotgun would be ideal for a defensive riot situation.

Hatchman
April 6, 2008, 06:16 PM
Sorry, I didnt notice that we were talking about rifles. Sorry!

offthepaper
April 6, 2008, 06:21 PM
12 guage shotgun would be my choice. Either a pump or semi to hold the hords off.

rrruuunnn
April 6, 2008, 06:23 PM
what do yall think about this? someone mentioned lever action with 357 like stopping power.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/619835060020.html

RNB65
April 6, 2008, 06:29 PM
I remember seeing helicopter video during the LA riots of the owners of a Korean grocery store firing Ruger Mini-14's from the roof of their store at the approaching masses. It worked. The approaching mob turned and ran like the cowards they were.
-

Cosmoline
April 6, 2008, 06:33 PM
It depends on if your goal is to stop rioters out to kill you or to simply scare them off. For the latter a big double bore blackpowder shotgun would likely work as well as anything.

geekWithA.45
April 6, 2008, 06:44 PM
It entirely depends on the local legal landscape.


Military pattern autoloaders if feasible,

and if not,

folding stock pump shotgun
or
lever action rifle carbines
or
autoloading pistol caliber carbines
if not.


I travel up and down the eastern seacoast, often with a destination in some fairly severe GFW territory.

When that started happening, I swapped the AR for a folding stock mossberg 500.

I decided I sucked at shotguns, and swapped the 500 for my Camp .45, which was the only gun I had that didn't have legal complications in that jurisdiction. I figured if I was going to have a rifle, I ought to have rifle range and rifle oomph, and so I bought myself a lightly used marlin 336 in 30-30, which I counted as a reasonable compromise for the purpose.

Savage Shooter
April 6, 2008, 07:10 PM
A sawed off full auto Browning BAR :evil: like what bonnie and clyde used it would be my first choise. It can laydown a good spray of bullets and can be very accurate, would be my first choise. If i had the cash i'd have one now they are sweet.:D

Avenger29
April 6, 2008, 07:16 PM
For the restrictive states, the .30-30 lever action is not a bad idea at all- fast, reliable, pretty powerful.

I took my 336, added XS ghost ring sights and a scout rail, and have an effective close combat weapon. 6 rounds in the mag, one in the pipe, and 9 rounds in the buttstock carrier.

It is currently my go-to rifle.

Bazooka Joe71
April 6, 2008, 07:33 PM
I'll take my AR 15 w/ TA31-F anyday.

Military pattern autoloaders if feasible,

and if not,

folding stock pump shotgun
or
lever action rifle carbines
or
autoloading pistol caliber carbines
if not.


Sounds about right to me.

jayhway
April 6, 2008, 07:39 PM
Here in California it is illegal to just drive around with a gun in the trunk of your car

Trunk Guns are legal in CA as long as it is a long arm and it's not loaded.

R.W.Dale
April 6, 2008, 07:41 PM
A Remington 7615 sounds like the best of both worlds between pump shotgun and rifle

You get the PC friendliness's that comes with being a pump

AND

You can use AR mags for a sustained volume of fire

I took my 336, added XS ghost ring sights and a scout rail, and have an effective close combat weapon. 6 rounds in the mag, one in the pipe, and 9 rounds in the buttstock carrier.

It is currently my go-to rifle.

That's 5 rounds less than I have in just one 20rd mag

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/REM%207615/HPIM1320.jpg

trbon8r
April 6, 2008, 07:43 PM
Get yourself an off-list AR-15 lower which is reluctantly blessed by the Cal DOJ. Build the rifle up to legal California standards with the magazine lock.

If a riot situation ever erupts, let your conscience be the guide as to whether you follow the letter of the law at that time. :)

Quiet
April 6, 2008, 07:43 PM
Here in California it is illegal to just drive around with a gun in the trunk of your car.
Not completely true.
It is completely legal to store an unloaded non-assault weapon classified rifle or shotgun in your vehicle.
The destination requirement comes into play when transporting handguns and assault weapons.

PAULREVERE
April 6, 2008, 08:00 PM
If I lived in the Cali, and money wasn't an issue, Springfield M1A with multiple 10 round mags. If you don't have 1300 bucks, Marlin 336 in 357. Both should get you out of any riot situation and make the perps look elsewhere for their looting ways.

Avenger29
April 6, 2008, 08:01 PM
A Remington 7615 sounds like the best of both worlds between pump shotgun and rifle

You get the PC friendliness's that comes with being a pump

AND

You can use AR mags for a sustained volume of fire


I took my 336, added XS ghost ring sights and a scout rail, and have an effective close combat weapon. 6 rounds in the mag, one in the pipe, and 9 rounds in the buttstock carrier.

It is currently my go-to rifle.



That's 5 rounds less than I have in just one 20rd mag

I did forget about the 7615. Also a fine rifle. (the 336, is however, about half the cost.)

Mauserguy
April 6, 2008, 08:12 PM
I stand corrected, a Californian can keep a rifle in his car, though I suspect that it may not be a good idea given the liklihood of theft and problems with prohibited areas. At any rate, I'm thinking that a lever action may be the best rifle.

The Marlin 1894 in 357 looks good. It has a nine shot capacity magazine as well. I assume that it could punch through a car door and not look too mean to police, moving the armed citizen from arrest now to arrest later status.
Mauserguy

Dismantler
April 6, 2008, 08:21 PM
I once read a bit by Jeff Cooper recommending a .30-30 lever action as an ideal law enforcement rifle. He was not a fan of .223's.

Myself...for urban use I would prefer a .357 magnum lever action. Ammo is less expensive than .30-30. There is less chance of overpenetration. It is good for 100 yards or less, a typical urban distance. You can couple it with a revolver.

Colt46
April 6, 2008, 08:25 PM
Pistol caliber gives you about ten in the tube. Not bad for urban problems and you can feed spares into the the rifle without disabling the gun. My Puma .45 weighs less than 6 lbs, is good enough out to 100 yards and quite effective for anybody not wearing body armor. I'd bet that those big slugs have a fair ability to punch through vehicles to get at occupants inside. It doesn't look like a terrorist weapon and may less likely for law enforcement to try to disarm you for openly carrying it(highly theoretical I know)in an open riot situation.
I'm not a fan of the M-1 carbine for defense. The .30 carbine in military ball configuration lacks the kind of thump I'd like to have in that kind of situation.

joewill
April 6, 2008, 08:33 PM
You asked "best riot rifle" but as others have said, up close and personal, you can't beat a 12 Ga. shotgun. I like a pump because just racking a 12Ga. is usally enough to quiet down most. And if not, well, not much more to the story.

Ratshooter
April 6, 2008, 08:37 PM
A 357 lever holds 9 rounds and i beleive 10 38s. Mine is my overall favorite gun. A 44 mag would do just as well.

Krocus is right with the 7615. I love mine. Shoots anything that will fit in the mag and doesn't depend on gas pressure to make it work.

A Hi-Point 9mm or 40 S&W would be a good choice also. Nice and cheap so if its stolen its not that big of a deal. I love the sights on these guns. They are really fast to pick up. The only failure to feed i have had was when i tried to use lead bullets. The nose dug into the feed ramp.

Tacticaldude
April 6, 2008, 08:53 PM
An SUV or Old Cadillac ...V8 power !!

On a rifle ...Keltec SU16CA or Shotgun(semi or pump)

woodyjustin42
April 6, 2008, 09:58 PM
This is really quite simple, the best riot gun in terms of stopping power and limiting collateral damage is: A 12 gauge with slugs. Cheap ammo, and good ammo capacity. Personally I would use a remington 1100 tactical. Look it up on wikipedia. It can hold 8 slugs also you could extend that capacity with little modification. Fairly easy to do reloads also. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_shotgun check it out I think you will agree. Because you dont want to much collateral and you can interchange between buckshot and sabot depending on the situation I think it wins hands down. It's what im gonna use when anarchy reins here soon.

woodyjustin42
April 6, 2008, 10:04 PM
Or a remington 7615 for higher mag capacity. Your question was for riot sd right>? Well everyone keeps telling you these rifles or assault rifles but unless your attacking pakistan soon it is impractical and unneeded for handling rioters.

Funderb
April 6, 2008, 10:10 PM
12 ga with bean bags. no reason to kill people that are trying to come at you with fists alone.

Guitargod1985
April 6, 2008, 10:42 PM
krochus, what kind of rifle is that?

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
April 6, 2008, 10:59 PM
The question of the politically-correct repeating rifle for fighting scenarios, in order to help show the mildly anti-gun LEO which you may run into that you're a "good guy", not a "bad guy" on the offensive, so s/he will let you on your way, since all you have is your ol' huntin gun, just protecting yourself from a riot, is a question that comes up often under the topic of "truck gun", etc.

As has been said many times in many threads, some of your better choices are leverguns and milsurp turnbolts, particularly easily fed turnbolts like a No. 4 or No. 1 Enfield, No. 2A enfield, Swiss K31 - those have both detachable mags AND ability to be fed with stripper clips. A tanker Garand would be pretty good too, though. As mentioned, an old wood-stocked shotgun would fit the bill as well.

An M1 carbine, though wood-stocked, may make an LEO uneasy what with the long mag and evil heat shield, esp. if you have a folding stock - probably not the best choice if your goal is *very* P.C.

I have a No. 4 Enfield, sporterized, which is usually in the pickup truck - 2 full mags, separate from the gun (so that it's not loaded). One mag has military ball ammo, and one mag has 180 gr soft points.

ny32182
April 7, 2008, 12:05 AM
If I were ever in a riot, "PC" would be the last thing on my mind.

AR15, lots of mags.

jpwilly
April 7, 2008, 12:17 AM
Same here, I'm not a cop. You won't see me standing there with a rifle or shotgun and pistol for no reason. If you do see me...don't do anything stupid!

macadore
April 7, 2008, 12:40 AM
Since you live in California and are limited to 10 round magazines, I would say the SKS with plenty of clips. The ammo is cheap and has substantially more energy than most handgun rounds. It doesnít recoil much so it is easy to stay on target.

Sebastian the Ibis
April 7, 2008, 02:22 AM
An AR-15 lower that has been made California compliant by redoing the pistol grip:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=96719809

And either a traditional AR-15 upper in .223 - for practice and to save $$.

or more likely an upper in .50 Beowolf
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=96448519

or .458 Socom
http://www.teppojutsu.com/

Hopefully you have some hi-cap pre-ban mags. If not make sure that you get some mags directly from Alexander or Teppo that have the caliber and company written all over them- hopefully you can use 20 rd. .223 mags with 7 larger rounds in it if the manufacturer calls it a ".50 beowolf" mag. - Does anyone know?

This is the "rifle" I would like in a California Riot situation, although I'm not sure it's legal there as I'd like it.

If you permit me to go off topic -

The weapon I would really want is a flame thrower. As long as you are outside there is no more fearsome or effective short range weapon- (sorry 12 gauge fans its not even close). You can take out a couple dozen rioters in a single trigger pull- and scare the bejesus out of the rest of them. And best of all it is not a "destructive device" even in CA. http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/03-04/bill/sen/sb_1751-1800/sb_1781_cfa_20040622_081502_asm_comm.html

I am also a fan of the awesome power of an F-150 (with or without a snowplow) when it comes to taking care of rioters blocking my exit.

Owlnmole
April 7, 2008, 03:19 AM
If Saiga's are legal in CA, that might be an option. I am leaning toward an ordinary, unmodified Saiga in .223 as my fun plinker gun and SHTF.

If the Saiga or SKS is not acceptable for any reason, I definitely agree with the lever gun option, and I would prefer the higher capaciy of the pistol-calibers over the greater power of the .30-30. Cheap to buy and shoot, low profile, and you can load the rifle with high-powered rounds that would be fairly uncomfortable in a pistol. With a Marlin 1894C and a companion .357 revolver I would feel quite secure in most situations.

Heck, if you live in a really gun-unfriendly place, a Ruger 10/22 with hyper-velocity rounds and a couple of extra mags will do the trick. I think that in most situations, the bad guys won't stay around to be shot at, or shot, more than once.

Iron Mike
April 7, 2008, 03:50 AM
Preferably an AR. if not that than a .357 or .44 lever action. If I were caught in a riot zone unarmed, I'd run to the nearest book store, they never loot them.

Ergosphere
April 7, 2008, 04:42 AM
Since the gun must be transported unloaded, a lever gun is not ideal; they're slow to load. You want something magazine-fed, or at least something that can be fed by stripper clips. You can keep loaded magazines in the car, so long as they are not attached in ANY way to the firearm.

An SKS would be an good choice, especially since they're inexpensive. Of course, it must be CA-legal (fixed 10-round mag only, no grenade launcher). I wouldn't want to keep an AR in my vehicle, since many LEO don't understand the OLL situation (they're illegal by statute, and legal only by case law). The same is true with RAA Saigas and other off-list AK types.

An M1A or M1 Garand would work, but battle rifles may be a bit too much for urban situations (use frangible ammunition?) and I wouldn't want to store a $1500 rifle in my car. :uhoh:

The Kel-Tec Sub-2000 is a perfect "truck gun" but it's not legal in California. :cuss: But the SU-16CA would work well, I think... fold-able, .223, CA-legal, and magazine-fed.

A Ruger mini-14 or mini-30 would also do well, though IMO they should be more accurate for the price. :rolleyes:

A semi-automatic shotgun that accepts a detachable magazine is an assault weapon. So, no Saiga shotguns.

Also beware of local laws... for example, Berkeley has a complete ban on semi-automatic long guns. BTW, I don't think there's any destination requirement for pistols; the only difference is that pistols must be in a locked container (can be the trunk). See PC 12026.1.

Owlnmole
April 7, 2008, 09:27 AM
Any of the Ruger .44 mag carbines, semi-auto or lever, would be an option as well. Non-threatening appearance, quicker to load from empty vs. a tubular magazine, plenty effective at urban defense ranges. The downside is the small mag capacity (4+1) and the fact that both the semi-auto and lever guns seem to have been discontinued by Ruger.

It would also be great if someone would make an inexpensive lever gun along the lines of the beautiful and expensive Browning BLR. Remington has a nice idea with their 7615 pump rifle that takes AR-15 magazines. An inexpensive lever or pump that took standard AR-15 mags (just five or ten rounds is pleny) would be very handy. Many Ruger Mini-14/Mini-30 aftermarket mags seem pretty good as well. A lever-action 7.62x39 would be a great all-purpose gun.

Pilot
April 7, 2008, 09:38 AM
To me "riot" meand lots of potential threats in large marauding gangs relatively close. I would choose something that can be reloaded quickly with spare, pre-loaded detachable magaziens. An M1 Carbine, AK variant or AR would be on my list with a preference to the latter two.

GunTech
April 7, 2008, 10:00 AM
What about a KelTec SU-16 CA? California legal 223 semi that takes AR-15 mags and folds up for compact storage. It's not my first choice, but it is CA legal and doesn't look like an AR.

Ruger Mini-14 might be another option. This rifle is not known for its accuracy, but 4 MOA is probably all you need in a riot. I handled the new 6.8 version and the barrel looks substantially heavier. It would probably hold up better as a club too.

Finally, if 'cheap' isn't a necessity, something like an M1A SOCOM, which is short, reliable, club-like and has all the power anyone could ask for. Also CA legal.

Nothing against the AR, but it makes a poor melee weapon. Even the Ruger pistol caliber carbines are much more rugged when it comes to abuse (i.e. make better clubs)

goon
April 7, 2008, 10:23 AM
SkS - it will get the job done and it's cheap enough that when the police confiscate it from you after you shoot someone in a riot, you won't be too heartbroken about it.

armoredman
April 7, 2008, 10:31 AM
Siagia 12 gauge with one mag filled with screamers, bird bombs, and smoke. The rest 00 buck and maybe a mag of slug for any trucks headed your way.

Walkalong
April 7, 2008, 10:39 AM
AR, M1, AK, SKS, in no particular order. Whichever one you like.

NG VI
April 7, 2008, 11:51 AM
I like my AR.

trbon8r
April 7, 2008, 03:04 PM
Nothing against the AR, but it makes a poor melee weapon. Even the Ruger pistol caliber carbines are much more rugged when it comes to abuse (i.e. make better clubs)

You must be kidding? The AR pattern rifle has been rugged enough for the U.S. government for the last 40+ years. I'll take an AR any day over a hunk of junk Ruger designed for the civilian market. Unlike the AR, the Ruger is a civilian toy designed to fire a limited number of rounds before it goes toes up. Civilian guns are constructed to shoot a few boxes of ammo through, and then get stuck in the corner of a closet. Contrast this with a true military grade weapon like an AR that is designed to shoot thousands of rounds of ammo and keep on ticking.

Regarding the AR's use as a blunt instrument, I believe a weapon is designed to fire bullets, not be used as a hammer.

ctdonath
April 7, 2008, 03:12 PM
Funderb,
Individually, yes.
En masse, no.

Rugerlvr
April 7, 2008, 03:16 PM
A Mini-14 is relatively non-"scary" and yet still packs excellent firepower.

Geno
April 7, 2008, 03:41 PM
This type of thread troubles me, not for the sake of the topic, but for the sake of what it means to our country, and to my daughter's future.

I grew up in a small town of about 800 folks. Fights were really rare, even among kids. Firearms violence was near non-existent. Heck, our county's sheriff’s department had been in existence for many, many decades before we had an officer was shot, let alone killed (MHRiP). That brave officer died because he tried to talk his dear friend out of suicide (MHBiH). Anyhow, now that I have that off of my chest, the reality of our times necessitate that we be prepared.

I suggest a complimenting pair of long guns: 1 high capacity, 30 caliber, auto-loader and 1 high capacity, pump-action 12 gauge. A good .40 or .45 caliber sidearm is like icing for the cake. Sure, some may suggest a 5.56 would end an attack, and it would, eventually. But, a 5.56 almost always fails to fully penetrate most automobiles. But, a 12 gauge, loaded either with 00 buckshot, or a 1.0 to 1.25 ounce slug will penetrate most parts of an automobile should an attack come from behind one. The 30 calibers do the same, be it a 7.62X39, 7.62X51 or larger.

Of course, I am taking the perspective here of defending my home or my business, not of driving around with such weapons and of engaging in some Rambo-like, street-to-street escape back home. You know what?! Writing this post just reminded me of why I so desperately miss northern Michigan.

22LongRifle
April 7, 2008, 05:27 PM
+1 on running into the book store! I spit soda on my screen after reading that. But really, when was the last time yoiu saw a looter carrying an arm full of books!

I would go with a Mossberg 500 20ga and a Rossi Lever action 357. Buy both for under $600 and another $100 in ammo and you are covered til you get back home or to safety at the nearest Barnes and Nobles.

Neither have to have magazines to work. The 500 is simple to reload while still having the weapon at your shoulder. The Rossi takes a little more practice.

Also, to quote Paco Kelly form leverguns.com, the 357 is a differant animal out of a rifle.

22lr

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
April 7, 2008, 05:32 PM
Since the gun must be transported unloaded, a lever gun is not ideal; they're slow to load. You want something magazine-fed, or at least something that can be fed by stripper clips. You can keep loaded magazines in the car, so long as they are not attached in ANY way to the firearm

Amen. That is why I say that a K31 or an Enfield is the perfect PC truck/car gun. In 2 seconds flat you can be locked and loaded with either 5 rounds or 10 rounds (or 12 in the case of the 2A enfield). Or as you say, an SKS which can be loaded with stripper clips.

Saiga 12 gauge with one mag filled with screamers, bird bombs, and smoke. The rest 00 buck and maybe a mag of slug for any trucks headed your way.

I like the way you think, and not a bad plan. But for me, that's (a) too expensive to keep in a vehicle, and (b) too un-PC - yes, it's a sad statement on modern society that political correctness should matter, but it does potentially. However, mostly (a) is the reason against the Saiga 12 for me.

BIGR
April 7, 2008, 05:57 PM
Krochus, Nice looking rifle. How good does it shoot? Should be dependable with about any load.

R.W.Dale
April 7, 2008, 06:09 PM
Krochus, Nice looking rifle. How good does it shoot?

Thanks for the comment.

it shoots VERY good

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/REM%207615/HPIM1718.jpg

geekWithA.45
April 7, 2008, 06:17 PM
Since the gun must be transported unloaded, a lever gun is not ideal; they're slow to load. You want something magazine-fed, or at least something that can be fed by stripper clips. You can keep loaded magazines in the car, so long as they are not attached in ANY way to the firearm

I'm not going to argue that quicker loading isn't better, because (duh) it is.

What I am going to argue is that the 25 seconds of difference don't matter.

More to the point, if your plan or circumstances don't have 25 seconds of leeway in them, dodging bullets all the way to your trunk and fumbling with your gun case oughtn't be "plan A".

Funderb
April 7, 2008, 06:24 PM
if it were a riot situation, I'd rather just run and shoot the few people that try to attack the guy with the gun, than stay and try to "keep the peace"

B.D. Turner
April 7, 2008, 06:30 PM
You can't take a weapon around in the trunk of your car in california? I wouldn't worry about a riot cause I wouldn't live there.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
April 7, 2008, 06:47 PM
I'm not going to argue that quicker loading isn't better, because (duh) it is.

What I am going to argue is that the 25 seconds of difference don't matter.

More to the point, if your plan or circumstances don't have 25 seconds of leeway in them, dodging bullets all the way to your trunk and fumbling with your gun case oughtn't be "plan A".

Well except if you see a coyote or feral pig in your headlights on the farm/lease, or if someone is shooting towards you or your loved ones - 1/2 second could matter, let alone 25 seconds. So it's a rarity, but I've had the coyote/pig thing happen, and wished I'd had a very handy gun which was still legal to transport (unloaded).

Ergosphere
April 7, 2008, 07:42 PM
What I am going to argue is that the 25 seconds of difference don't matter.

I'd argue that if you do have 25 seconds of leeway, odds are you don't actually need the firearm in the first place.

Seriously, you're going to argue that 25 seconds doesn't matter? To refute that, I'll paraphrase Roberts' (?) statement during the oral arguments in Heller... "So if someone is coming through the window, you wake up, turn on the light, get your glasses, unlock and then load the gun?"

Sometimes when you need a gun, you need it right now, not 20 or even 5 seconds from now. California requires that it be unloaded, but at least with a magazine-fed gun you can have something that is quickly made ready.

Ergosphere
April 7, 2008, 07:56 PM
You can't take a weapon around in the trunk of your car in california?

It's legal (except for assault weapons) so long as the weapon is completely unloaded, with no ammunition attached in any way (no shotgun side-saddles, etc.). Pistols must be in a locked case (locked trunk is okay). Check the California penal codes for details, especially sections 12025 and 12026 - but realize other codes do apply, such as the assault weapon law. Long guns do not have to be in the trunk or in a locked case.

Of course, even if you are completely within the law, the authorities will frown on it.

(IANAL, this is not legal advice... read the law.)

Rugerlvr
April 7, 2008, 07:58 PM
It's legal (except for assault weapons)

What is it that CA considers an assault weapon?

GunTech
April 7, 2008, 08:04 PM
You must be kidding? The AR pattern rifle has been rugged enough for the U.S. government for the last 40+ years. I'll take an AR any day over a hunk of junk Ruger designed for the civilian market.

I am not a big guy. In fact I was pretty thin in my Army days. But I did manage to snap the butt off my M16 on an FTX


Regarding the AR's use as a blunt instrument, I believe a weapon is designed to fire bullets, not be used as a hammer.

That's the theory. What happens when you a) run out of ammo or b) have a FTF in the middle of a riot?

PhrankKastle
April 7, 2008, 08:06 PM
I would choose between either a SKS or a Legacy/Puma 92 in .357. Of course I would only limit myself to either of these 2 because at present they are the only 2 rifles I own.

daddyo
April 7, 2008, 08:08 PM
Keltec SU16CA. It carefully tiptoes around the ********** laws. It folds, but can't be fired while folded. 2 10-round AR type magazines store in the butt. With the gun in my hand, I can unfold, load and be ready to fire in less than 5 seconds.

Ergosphere
April 7, 2008, 08:39 PM
What is it that CA considers an assault weapon?

That's best answered with the flowchart (http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf).

Off-list lower AR receivers, and off-list AKs, are legal (i.e. not assault weapons) only by case law, and only if assembled in compliance with the "evil feature" ban. There should be no problem with them, but I wouldn't want to carry one around in my vehicle. Some police and DAs are still a bit obstinate regarding their legality.

akodo
April 7, 2008, 08:57 PM
12 ga with bean bags. no reason to kill people that are trying to come at you with fists alone.

Tell that to all the people who were killed in one-on-one fights, let alone a mob.

Besides, I seem to recall during the riots to see people more than willing to punch a man to his knees then throw a brick at his head.

Funderb
April 7, 2008, 09:10 PM
I don't think people that got killed in one on one fights had a shotgun with bean bags.

The whack of a bean back on an assailant will give you more than ample time to run away.

trbon8r
April 7, 2008, 10:01 PM
That's the theory. What happens when you a) run out of ammo or b) have a FTF in the middle of a riot?

Transition to the 1911 on your hip and shoot them in the face.

Rugerlvr
April 7, 2008, 10:32 PM
That's best answered with the flowchart.


Jebus I'm glad I live in Utah...

ctdonath
April 7, 2008, 11:52 PM
The whack of a bean back on an assailant will give you more than ample time to run away.
Methinks you're missing the point: there's more than one assailant. A LOT more.

jpwilly
April 7, 2008, 11:52 PM
After reading that flow chart I want to kick some CA butt!

BammaYankee
April 8, 2008, 12:05 AM
Here's my 2 cents... If a full scale riot ever broke out, I would use my firearm to fight my way OUT of the situation and get me and mine to safer ground if possible. One reason is even rioters can tell when your gun runs dry or when you have a stoppage and I wouldn't want to get bulldoged when trying get back up and running. Also, unless you absolutely must remain in the area why would you allow yourself to get boxed into a corner (or bookstore) anyway?
For the sake of this thread, if I did have to choose I would grab my PTR 91 and about 6 mags full of 168 TAPs for 2 reasons. First, nobody will want to go toe to toe with any .308. Second, if I did get jumped while trying to reload I could easilly be stripped of the rifle. However,the fact that your common thug would most likely find it hard to put it back into battery (ie, semi rocking in the mag and then having to crank that beast of a charging handle) instead of simply pressing the bolt release button would definitely work to my advantage while I go for a sidearm.

That's my armchair quarterback gameplan!

Ratshooter
April 8, 2008, 12:26 AM
If you can justify shooting someone with a beanbag you can justify using real ammo. Beanbags are for cops.

Besides if he is close enough you might kill him anyway. If you don't kill him but maybe rupture his liver or break a rib that punctures a lung and he lives he will sue your A$$ off. You may think you can get away but i beleive they caught the guys that hit Reginald Denny in the head with a brick from news films.

I guess if you do shoot make sure there are no news helecopters around filming you going Rambo.

Mauserguy
April 8, 2008, 01:18 AM
Yes, they caught the guy who beat Denny. His name was Football. He was a lovely, kind-hearted man. Anyway, if your car got boxed in, and you only had a few seconds to pop open the trunk and prepare, clips or magazines would be handy. Maybe I will think Mosin-Nagant or Mauser...
Mauserguy

Squidward
April 8, 2008, 01:22 AM
'What do you think is the best gun to have when the police want to arrest you and everybody else wants you dead? Mauserguy'

I realize this is Rifle Country, but the "best gun" may be a handgun. Unobtrusive, concealable, and easier to use at extremely close ranges than a rifle.I'd store it in a lock box with extra ammo in the trunk.

But, if its GOT to be a rifle I'd take anything reliable and bone stock from the factory in a semi auto carbine

Ignition Override
April 8, 2008, 01:26 AM
Which lower-cost SKS would you buy, i.e. between a Chinese and Yugoslavian, if you decided to keep the gun for many years as a back-up to the Mini 30 and 14?
The Russians cost a bit more and I'm just a frequent plinker; prefer to spend the price difference on more ammo.

Already have two Mosins which pack a Punch at a distance, and are rugged.

Many SKS guys say Yugo, many Chinese Norinco.
Which is more durable with the better action, and feeds better etc from its basic internal magazine?
Have some of you guys/gals operated both many times?

ECVMatt
April 8, 2008, 01:35 AM
or at least lots of folks had them at home. I sold tons of them during the riots and at the time they were considered C&R's, so folks could just walk out with them. This made them the most popular gun to sell during the the riots. We got boat loads of Carbines, magazines, and ammo. We would try to sell 5 or 10 at a time and then hold a small class, showing the folks how to use their newly purchased rifle.

I am a bit hesitant to sell guns to folks who don't know much about them, but people were pretty worked up and going to get a gun somewhere. I felt better knowing that we at least pointed them in the right direction and offered to help them at any point in the future. I can't honestly tell you how many carbines we sold, but it was in the hundreds. I would guess five or six hundred. We literally had UPS trucks full of carbine's pulling up to the store. They were mostly pre-sold and we had folks waiting for the trucks to unload.

After all that, I would say that any good serviceable rifle or shotgun would have worked fine during the riots. It seemed that most of the rioters would leave at the first sight of a gun. Only gun shops, pawn shops, and jewlery stores were attacked by large groups of criminals. The most important thing is to know your firearm and make sure it is in proper working condition.

We had a competitor who strapped a CAR-15 to his back and wore is the entire time of the riot. He grabbed it off the wall of his shop. After the riots were over we all went out to the desert to shoot and blow off some steam. His CAR fired one round and then jammed completely shut. He had to send it back to the mfgr. for repair. That could have killed him a few days earlier.

Matt

Owlnmole
April 8, 2008, 04:18 AM
I am sure the California types have already thought of this, but note that the Kel-Tec SU-16CA may fit Cali law but don't keep the mags in the stock or you've got the ammo attached to the gun.

That California assault gun flow chart is just horrible, but I am happy to see that a stock, unmodified Saiga will work just fine. The bad guys rarely come more than 10 at a time. ;-p

EDIT - %$#@! I take that back, Saigas are listed by name, though not with the correct importer/manufacturer. So that's probably out.

Pontif
April 8, 2008, 04:40 AM
I now this is a big, long range rifle. But, for a 10 shot, bolt action in a fairly heavy caliber, people would be noticing my "personal space" out to about 750 yards.

And for $300, or so, it ain't bad.

Thinking about the LA riots, I would prefer a Benelli Super 90 as a primary for the up close, tender moments - for those idiots that hit the truck driver in the head with the brick. Sorry, I just cannot erase those images. I usually don't pop off like that.

tntwatt
April 8, 2008, 04:46 AM
A good 12ga pump with a laser dot. You'd only have to shoot once. Then anyone you painted with the dot would run like crazy.

TimboKhan
April 8, 2008, 06:09 AM
12 ga with bean bags. no reason to kill people that are trying to come at you with fists alone.

The flaw that I see in your logic is your use of the word "people", which implies more than one. I can vaguely concede that I might not shoot a single person looking for a fistfight (although, in the right circumstances, I feel it is perfectly justifiable), but I cannot agree that more than one person looking to pound you is not justification for shooting. Frankly, it's not that hard to sustain a life-altering (or ending) head injury, internal injury or broken bones when you have one person whacking you, let alone multiple whackers. Call me bloodthirsty if you will, but if a crowd of more than one is rushing me with an eye towards beating me, I will shoot until I am out of ammo or until the threat is gone.

In an effort to stay on topic, I would prefer an AR in this role, but an SKS would be my next choice. Actually, for that matter, really any rifle would do. I have argued in the past that even my beloved Mosin Nagant would be suitable in this role, although it is admittedly not the best tool. In a perfect situation, it would be an AR chambered for 7.62x39.

Funderb
April 8, 2008, 09:03 AM
I just like beanbags. and typing beanbag.
I'll stick with beanbags.
Unless the riot were formed in order to specifically kill me, riots usually are directed at something, like a police riot squad, and aren't melees of random violence of everyone kill everyone else. If you get into a fight you probably could have avoided said fight.

ctdonath
April 8, 2008, 09:13 AM
Funderb,
Two words: Reginald Denny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Oliver_Denny)
The riot was not formed in order to specifically kill him, the riot was directed at anything in sight, the police vacated the area, there were melees of random violence against anyone of the wrong skin color, the fight sprung up around him and he was dragged out of his truck and dang near killed (suffered brain damage).
...and you want to throw beanbags.

JohnnyGrey
April 8, 2008, 09:19 AM
Unless the riot were formed in order to specifically kill me, riots usually are directed at something, like a police riot squad, and aren't melees of random violence of everyone kill everyone else. If you get into a fight you probably could have avoided said fight.

Have you really watched any riots take place? Violence is directed at anyone and anything. Bystanders are killed, shops are trashed and cars are burned and overturned. The next time you find yourself in a fight, blame yourself for being there as you're beaten to death.

I'll take my AR with all the 40rd mags I can hold.

Funderb
April 8, 2008, 09:30 AM
You seem to forget that this day's legal system does not often support us, the gun community, like it does the sob story "guns killt my family" group.

If people are attacking you, for no reason, and you shoot a beanbag at one or two guys, and they go down like sacks of potatoes, chances are the group consensus is going to be, "hey, let's leave that guy alone" not "lets kill the armed guy". In a riot situation, no one is going to inspect the wounded and then yell, hey, he's shooting bean bags!!" get him!!"
And you may worry about lawsuits, the injured will file suit, and you, the one who did not take anyone's life defending your own, will look much better than the man who killed 6 people that were attacking him with one of those "evil assault rifles". Because I can pretty garundamtee you that in that situation, the families, armed with sobs and cries of woe, will get you.

If the mob is shooting at you, by all means, shoot back with the hard rain.

Here's a compromise, you generally have an 9 round capacity in a shotgun, thanks mainly due to AWB expiration, put load three bean bags, one in the chamber, two in the tube. The remaining 6 may be 00 buckshot. If the bean bags fail, then by all means, you would be in the right to use the 00. Saving yourself does not ALWAYS mean others have to die.
But don't take that statement and try to accuse me of not supporting our right to bear arms. I enjoy the right very much. Maybe I don't see the merit in killing people as much as you do. If you know anything about the mob mentality, then you should know that even if a mob is doing bad things, doesn't mean everyone in the mob is bad, or deserves to die.

Avenger29
April 8, 2008, 09:47 AM
Funderb, when a mob gets enraged to the point of property destruction (and it doesn't take much, either), they think nothing of actually killing people.

My parents and their parents were around during the integration riots. My grandfather went and fetched his daughters from school and he took a 12 gauge shotgun with buckshot and plenty of reloads in his pocket.

CAPTAIN MIKE
April 8, 2008, 10:51 AM
I believe a tactical shotgun is the best riot gun, no holds barred.

30 cal slob
April 8, 2008, 11:01 AM
well, if it's a zombie riot, all bets are off. it's minigun time.

if it's just zombies on a coffee/liver/other tasty innard break, transition to m4 carbine and have a steady pick.

Browning
April 8, 2008, 11:19 AM
Since you're in California and limited in what you can choose as far as semi-auto rifles go I would go with.

1st Choice A Scout Springfield M1A

2nd An M1 Carbine

3rd A Tanker M1 Garand

4th A Ruger Mini-14

I'd personally choose a semi-auto rifle (even if you have to use 10 round mags) over any kind of lever or bolt action rifle just because of the need for fast repeat shots. No matter how fast someone is with a bolt or a lever action that same person will be able to engage targets faster with a semi-auto rifle.

I'd have a preference towards the shorter rifles for this just because of the limited room in vehicles.

That being said, Reginald Denny would have been okay even if he just had an inexpensive $150 Hungarian PA-63 9X18 pistol or a surplus S&W model 10 .38 revolver. Does anyone doubt that those guys would have quit trying to pull him out so that they could bash his head in with a brick when they caught a face full of 9mm or .38 slugs as they opened the door to his truck? That would have been a much happier ending if that's what happened, as it stood though he was completely unarmed. With a handgun he could certainly could have brought it around quicker in the amount of space that he had to work with than he could have any rifle.

ctdonath
April 8, 2008, 11:25 AM
they go down like sacks of potatoes
The problem is when they get back up, sore, angry, and focused on you.

To paraphrase a wise man:
"If it comforts you to have it, do so, but do not load it, for if you load it you may have reason to fire it, and if you fire it you may hit someone, and if you hit someone you will annoy them and give them reason to do you great harm."

If it works, great.
If it doesn't, you're so screwed.

load three bean bags, one in the chamber, two in the tube. The remaining 6 may be 00 buckshot.
Extremely dangerous advice.
- Mis-count, and you've just mixed up "non-lethal" with "lethal". Baaaaaaaad news whichever way you goofed.
- If you need 00 now, you've got to discharge/unload three rounds of fluff to get to what you need.
- You've just obfuscated the behavior of a very dangerous tool. Under indicated usage conditions, your thought processes will be very simplistic and unable to rapidly process the obfuscation (this is well-documented and very likely: fight-or-flight kicks in, and your "fight" tool just became very iffy). The mob is coming at you and you just grabbed your chosen tool to stop them: are you sure those first three rounds are "harmless"?
- When the opposition realizes you're loaded with something relatively harmless, they'll be emboldened to take you down extra hard. Great: not only have you just encouraged them to attack, you've given them an invulnerability complex.

Again:
If it works, great.
If it doesn't, you're so screwed.

I actually appreciate the notion of not using such force when not appropriate.
The problem with the scenario, and your solution to it, is that if you have to pull that trigger (even with beanbags) such force is appropriate. Beanbags CAN be terminal, and you'd dang well better be ready for that consequence if you use it - and the situation had better warrant that result, at which point YOUR life is on the line and it's time to take things that seriously. Trying to downgrade that situation can get you killed.

Ironically, I'm sitting here listening to a techno mix CD, and the current song has lyrics depicting a mob mentality:
"No more slogans,
no more excuses,
no more blinding our eyes and baring our ***es to the world.
We have the power,
we have the resources,
we have the energy.
Let's get together and wreck s***."
Beanbags, anyone?

SageMonkey
April 8, 2008, 04:33 PM
+1 for a hand gun if possible. IF the police want to arrest anyone visibly armed and you must be where they could see you... a folding stock carbine or pistol grip 12ga would be other choices since they could be concealed if you really needed to be out in such a time.

For a rifle, the M1 Carbine would be near or at the top of my list. It is a very handy little rifle and has roughly similar ballistics to a .357 magnum. Low recoil, points well, etc. As an added benefit it doesn't look like an EBR and its history might endear it more to cops who might see it in your trunk one day.

jfountain2
April 8, 2008, 04:41 PM
Something like this would work for me.
Wild West Guns Bushwhacker (does not come with the bayonnet, or brass knuckle lever, but I bet the right gunsmith could fix that).

jfountain2
April 8, 2008, 05:14 PM
Oops... I just went to Wild West Guns website and it looks like they stopped offering the Bushwhacker.

dagger dog
April 8, 2008, 05:16 PM
Mini 14 .223 three 20 rd Ruger factory mags, look on the walls of the prisons, the guards there are used to putting down riots and thats what they carry, all those that knock the Mini, can't say a word here cause all you do in a riot is spray and pray accuracy is not a factory when fighiting a crowd ,just reliability, and with the way the Mini throws the brass you don't have to worry about you don't have to worry about tripping on the cases!

verb0s
April 8, 2008, 05:37 PM
my Norinco SKS with all my stripper clips loaded (thats 800 rounds) and the bayonet extended. it should make someone think twice before doing something potentially suicidal.

As my back-up, my western auto 20 gauge pump. I buy bulk ammo from walmart, they're sporting loads only, birdshot #7.5 shot .275 inch. It won't get penetration, but certainly will stop people when I go Rambo with it.

I don't see why would anyone else want a different rifle. Ammo is cheap and plentiful, it is easy to reload and fires as fast as you can bump-fire or pull the trigger, and you got a bayonet to dissuade people from attacking you in hand-to-hand combat. A bigger rifle will not put a bigger hole in people, but only hurt your shoulder, the recoil would also be harder to control in rapid fire.

My shotgun holds 5+1, I always load a round directly into the chamber first, then 5 shells if I have time in the magazine. No need to aim, just point and shoot. I wish I can get bigger shot for it, though. Birdshot hardly scars a tree.
My solution to birdshot's lack of power is- shoot in people's faces. I'd imagine that okay if a mob is directly coming towards me.

Ergosphere
April 8, 2008, 06:11 PM
20 rd Ruger factory mags

Nope, there's a 10-rd. magazine capacity limit in California...

PAULREVERE
April 8, 2008, 08:59 PM
If I were in an angry mob situation (terrorist attack, food supply cut off,hungry people, blah,blah,blah...) bean bags are the last thing I want in my 12 gauge. They will sue you anyway for felonious assault if that bean bag stings em too much. This is life or death, not here goes, hope he doesn't sue me after this.

belus
April 8, 2008, 10:16 PM
I like the idea of a lever action - especially if chambered in a complimentary revolver cartridge.

As far as rate of fire or time to reload, I think something can be learned from Cowboy Action Shooters. Legally it seems much easier to get away with a lever action too

Rate of fire: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81yFOlRlNmY
(albeit with reduced power loads)

Reloading: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-tbT3iSvGM

And as a bonus you've partially prepared yourself for a fun shooting sport.

B.D. Turner
April 9, 2008, 08:26 AM
If I had no choice but to live in the socialist republic of california and were in fear of riots or other civil unrest my choice would be the Marlin 1894 in .44 magnum with 11 rounds on tap this is one handy CAR (cowboy assault rifle)

hga
April 9, 2008, 08:50 AM
In a riot, it's all about psychological effects. '60s history in the LA area shows one person getting shot and killed (trying to run a M2 defended roadblock as I remember, I think it was Jerry Pournelle relating the story) can end it all as the word gets out.

The National Review published an account after the Rodney King riots of one stopped in Panama some decades earlier. 5-6 policemen with nothing more than their service revolvers walked down a street towards the mob, shooting in front of them. Maximum effect with least injury was achieved by ricochets and especially pavement fragments hitting the legs of the people, but again, it was the forceful response that did the trick, not injuring or killing lots of people per se.

If you have to stop one at long range, obviously a rifle, obviously preferably a box magazine fed one. In California, which has a 10 round magazine limit (right?) I'd go with a M1 Garand, you'd get a higher rate of fire with it than anything more modern that's limited in magazine size (and maybe even vs. 20 round magazines, the Garand is very fast to reload).

For shorter ranges and with the Panama example in mind, I have an 12ga 870 with the Flexitab fix and a one round magazine extension with a lot of #1 buckshot (Federal Classic 2 3/4-inch F127): many more .30 pellets vs. 00's .33, and if you're using it for direct fire it has LOTS more surface area than 00 with sufficient Fackler penetration and less over-penetration.

And for psychological effects, e.g. the idea of hitting pavement in front of a mob, in terms of effective projectiles let loose in the least time I doubt you can beat it or another suitable shotgun. Well, the White House is guarded by men with P90s, it's ideal and a lot more discriminate for this sort of thing, but it'll be a long time if ever before we'll be able to buy new full auto weapons, and I don't even want to think about the legal posture a civilian would be in if he used "a machine gun (gasp!)" to defend his life.

But I'll note that NONE of the Rodney King rioters were shot by defenders (civilian or police), which no doubt explains the long duration ... unfortunately, as others have noted, using lethal force instead of the "warning shots" we're warned never to use would probably result in a very bad legal outcome, at least in a place like LA. What can you say about a locality that withdraws its police, bans ammo sales (15 day waiting period made gun sales irrelevant), and had an official and confirmed policy of confiscating civilian weapons?

Ah, a note on that ammo sales ban: I recall someone mentioning they'd gone into the mountains and shot all their ammo recreationally, and then got back home in LA just in time for the riot. Never ever shoot all your ammo unless death is the only alternative.

- Harold

SimpleIsGood229
April 9, 2008, 09:20 AM
The combat implement ever devised (M1 Garand) sounds ideal. Keep a couple hundred rounds in clips and you'll be good.

...and since you're in the PRK, the M1 is outdated, obsolete, 60 year-old ''technology,'' afterall. :D ;)

Another thing is that the M1 is literally the funnest gun I've ever shot! I've shot a few, too.

ECVMatt
April 9, 2008, 09:35 AM
lots of rioters were shot by police and civilians...I will find the reference asap. Our local police were station at an area that was used as a make shift morgue. While they were waiting to be deployed they said bodies were dropped off with little or no investigation. Most bodies came from areas that had settled down. My guess would be that the folks who lived there shot them.

And you could still purchase ammo in LA County, just not the city. The store where I worked was about 20 minutes from the city and we sold tons of ammo. Almost every round in the store. However I agree that you should never let your stash get low. Those would be a harrowing 20 minutes to get to our store and the police had all the major freeways shut down.

Bottom line is be prepared to take care of yourself and your family. As I said before, any working firearm that you have experience with will do. Leveractions are great, Semi and shotguns are good too.

Here is some more info:

http://www.emergency.com/la-riots.htm

I agree that early shooting of rioters would have stopped this thing cold. By the time these idiots started getting shot, there was just too much going.

hga
April 9, 2008, 10:37 AM
lots of rioters were shot by police and civilians...I will find the reference asap. [ mentions his local police station was used as a make shift morgue. ]

I'd be very interested in that reference. The reports I heard that made it to the other side of the nation indicated there were plenty of deaths (although as I remember fewer than the normal rate!!!), but none could be attributed to defenders. This is part of my thesis that a lack of people getting shot by defenders helped lengthen the riot.

And you could still purchase ammo in LA County, just not the city. [ And the store he worked in was just about cleaned out. ]

Of course; my point was more about the posture of LA city: the subjects were abandoned to the tender mercies of the mob, and everything LA dared to do was done to prevent self-defense (as far as I remember the police didn't have the stones to actually confiscate any guns, but it was confirmed policy, name of the PR official and all). Bottom line, from this, Katrina, at least one recent Florida hurricane, etc. etc.: in an emergency, you and your neighborhood may well find yourself completely on your own, with the authorities effectively your enemies, or just not there if you're lucky....

However I agree that you should never let your stash get low. Those would be a harrowing 20 minutes to get to our store and the police had all the major freeways shut down.

Indeed. I'm sure plenty of people did not have the option of getting to your store or others, and you just never know if you'll be stuck in place (maybe you'll injure a leg just before an emergency...).

[...] As I said before, any working firearm that you have experience with will do....

This I would like to emphasize, the best gun in the world is the one you have with you. And one you know how to use; better a cheaper rifle and more money budgeted to practice ammo and range time than the best rifle and not enough of the latter.

But I'd argue one point I forgot on choices: make sure it's of military design or quality. If you need to maintain a high rate of fire, your gun will heat up more than it would in e.g. any normal hunting event. Some civilian design guns will then jam, military ones are obviously designed to avoid this (although your handguard just might catch on fire, e.g. old AR-180s have heat shields, the new ones are reported not to).

I agree that early shooting of rioters would have stopped this thing cold. By the time these idiots started getting shot, there was just too much going.


This might be in the area of "we just can't say". But a lot was said then that other riots, even ones days into the event, were stopped cold by one forceful event by the authorties and the word then spreading.

In this case, the police never did that. As I recall, it was burning itself out about the time the National Guard arrived, but your up close and personal memories are likely to be a lot better. I was living in Arlington, VA at the time, my girlfriend and I had some vacation time saved up and were planning on going into D.C. to some of the museums and the like. There was a little bit of violence in D.C., but we just stayed home and watched the TV in horror.

- Harold

kBob
April 9, 2008, 12:34 PM
FUNDERB!

In Florida firing a firearm in the direction of another person is considered the use of deadly force in an assault.

It does not make any difference legally if you use beanbads, rubber shot, rubber or wood slugs or whatever.

If you discharge a firearm in the direction of another person (notice that may well include "warning shots") you must have reason to use deadly force.

The danger of having "less than leathal" ammunition is that one may be tempted to use it before they actually have a reason to use deadly force.

Bean bags inside of 7 yards can be deadly and some even at longer ranges whether you mean them to be so or not. If you are shooting at much further than 7 yards then the states attourney or plantiffs attourney will certainly point out that a person not armed with a gun is not a viable deadly threat to you (whether this is true or not) and that you used deadly force without the need to do so.

While you are protected in FLorida from criminal prosicution in the case that the person you used deadly force upon was commitiing a forcable felony in which a reasonable person would have felt deadlyy force was warrented, in a riot situation you may have a problem proving that months later when 47 other folks are claiming you shot amongst them and hit williemac with you bean bag causing him great pain and suffering and loss of work etc, etc.

In a state like Kaliforn-ia where a bad guy can break into your home and then sue you because he tripped over your coffee table in the dark, and win, I would not advise anyone to purchase "less than leathal" ammo.


Everyone,

As to the best rifle for Riots, a very short one called a pistol or revolver might be best outside your home or business.

Inside those places any rifle you are comfortable and familure with will beat anything someone on the internet recommends that you buy then hardly ever shoot. A .22LR semi auto you can shoot and hit with beats an AKRWhatever that you bought and put away after a little bit of training with. Still you may have a hard time justifying shooting anyone not in your business or home or especially not in the immediate area (like within a yard or two of the same).

In any case where will your shots stop at?

I admit that the sight of an semi auto version of a modern military rifle can be intimadating and threatening to a felon and stop the felonious action immediatly ( I even acctually have experienced that first hand, twice). Unfortunately they also intimedate and frighten the neighbors who may call you to the attention of the LEOs AND many LEOs are frightened and allarmed to the extend that they may well over react to you legally displaying such a fire arm.

As to folks pointing out the utility of a shotgun outside the home or business......note that the reason many LEAs are going to pistol or .223 caliber carbines is the lack of ability to acount for where every piece of shot goes when a shotgun is used. SUre you can draw cones of fire and talk about the inverse square law all day, but where does that one flyier go? How about that shot that barely mises the bad guy went half a block hit a parking meter or parked car and then crused down a side street to kill someone around the corner (And yes this is a realistic scenerio as it has happened)?

Using deadly force is a very serious matter, outside the home or business it becomes even more serious.

The absolute best rifle for a riot situation is a "gone rifle" as in my rifle and I are gone away from the riot area.

-Bob Hollingsworth

Harley Quinn
April 9, 2008, 01:00 PM
Using deadly force is a very serious matter, outside the home or business it becomes even more serious.

The absolute best rifle for a riot situation is a "gone rifle" as in my rifle and I are gone away from the riot area.
*************

As has been stated the laws and fines and legal fees will kill your pocket book which will cause you severe anxiety and death via the slow artery clog. So if you decide to go out "shooting down the bad guy" with a set of good arteries maybe that is not all bad:uhoh:

Most talk the talk but when the time to walk it, few and far between. The amount in the service vs the amount breathing free air is a good example.

Been that way since the "American Revolution" small percentage took up the cause.

But if you are so inclined a good weapon is one you are familiar with and can shoot well not to over powered but has a good reputation.

The M1 was mentioned the mini 14 also one that has mags is good. Whatever it is you can be sure it is up to the job far better than most who give verbiage of BS... The above tact^^^ is more like the real scenario folks...

:what:

Funderb
April 9, 2008, 01:47 PM
KBOB!

So it is, but reading all of that, you negated my argument, and in doing so, the argument that you should be armed in said situation.

Comes out that you are screwed no matter what. In which case, I still stick to my same idea of "run the hell away". There is no reason to condemn yourself to that situation.
I am pretty sure that if you do decide to stay, and kill four or five people "defending yourself" with your AR, sks, m1carbine, whatever, either you will be killed there when you run out of ammo, or you will be killed subsequently after due process. Just try working a case of quadruple homicide and getting off scot free.

Ergosphere
April 9, 2008, 05:44 PM
Funderb, I agree that avoiding trouble areas is prudent; however I will defend my home in a riot situation.

I am pretty sure that if you do decide to stay, and kill four or five people "defending yourself" with your AR, sks, m1carbine, whatever, either you will be killed there when you run out of ammo, or you will be killed subsequently after due process.

That's possible, but also note the abundance of dead bodies, and lack of prosecutions or even investigations into their homicides, during the LA riots. If it's really a SHTF riot like those in LA, well... the police didn't seem to interested in tracking down people who killed rioters.

My concern, in the bay area, is the aftermath of a major earthquake on the Hayward or San Andreas faults. In this situation it may be extremely difficult to travel, due to road damage and traffic congestion on the roads that are passable (if any). It may be practically impossible to travel home from work; fleeing from an unruly crowd of looters may not be easy.

In this sort of situation, my wife and I will be well armed in defending our home (M1A, shotguns, and pistols). If we get caught away from home, the life becomes... interesting... :uhoh:

Funderb
April 9, 2008, 05:48 PM
fair enough.
In california, can you have 2 firearms in your trunk?
because I still think a shotgun may prove more useful in some situations.
Don't get me wrong, I am a rifle guy through and through. the only shotgun I own is a handmedown bolt .410. I just figure ease of use and good close quarter capability might be as useful as medium range hard hitters.

Ergosphere
April 9, 2008, 06:55 PM
In california, can you have 2 firearms in your trunk?

The law does not specify any limit.

Don't get me wrong, I am a rifle guy through and through

Me too... but you can't argue with a shotgun when things get "up close and personal."

I don't have a "trunk gun" at the moment, but this thread is a good reminder that I should. Unfortunately I drive a hatchback. There is a small storage compartment in the rear, but I don't think it'll fit a long gun. Hmm...:scrutiny:

Owlnmole
April 10, 2008, 02:55 AM
[Begin quote]
I don't have a "trunk gun" at the moment, but this thread is a good reminder that I should. Unfortunately I drive a hatchback. There is a small storage compartment in the rear, but I don't think it'll fit a long gun. Hmm...
[End quote]

Depending on the compartment, some of the options we've mentioned as break-down rifles might do the job. There is always the option of a pistol-grip shotgun as well, but that's definitely not low profile or PC.

Of course, the problem with many of these break-down rifles if you are talking about personal defense is the time it takes to deploy them. Taking a cue from the old MAS 36 CR 39 (http://www.gunsworld.com/french/mas/m36cr_us.html) and the Kel-Tec SU-16, someone should start making a folding, non-pistol grip stock for common rifles. As long as it blocks the trigger when folded, and maybe requires removing the magazine like the Kel-Tec, it would pass in all the assault-weapon-phobic places but still be great for storing a rifle in a vehicle and deploying it quickly.

That MAS 36 CR 39 has a great party trick, by the way. The sling is on a spring-loaded roller, like a seat belt, so it rolls up into the stock when you fold it. Here is a better link on the MAS 36 CR 39 (http://armesfrancaises.free.fr/FR%20MAS%2036%20CR%2039.html) with lots of photos, but in French.

Choate, Ram-Line, ATI, are you listening? ;-)

Kentucky
April 10, 2008, 08:50 AM
either you will be killed there when you run out of ammo

I dont understand this phrase "run out of ammo". Just how many people are there in California?

:) :) :)

XD-40 Shooter
April 10, 2008, 09:22 AM
During the '92 LA Riots, the Korean shop owners held off the mob pretty effectively with the good o'le SKS.:D They're shops were the only ones left standing and not looted on the block.

chauncey
April 10, 2008, 11:23 PM
if someone "made" me live in CA, I'd go with a Garand. I wouldn't go with a Tanker, they seem to be too much of a mixed bag for reliability and quality of build.

if I had to pick a non-semiauto, I'd pick an Enfield. It's a very fast, smooth bolt.

both load quickly and shoot accurately.

Mauserguy
April 13, 2008, 01:39 PM
So I was thinking about the replies in this thread and came up with a solution. I reached into the safe and pulled out an old Mauser. It is an old Gewer, made in Danzig in 1916. It was altered to approximate a K98K in the 1930s, then imported in the 1960s. My dad bought it in a drug store. The importer chopped the stock, but left he metal as the Wermacht wanted it.

It is a handly little 8MM. It has a decent bore and an excellent crown. The old girl probably saw two world wars, so she is good enough for me. Put some stripper clips in a shoulder pouch, and I think I have a good, smooth, reliable riot rifle.
Mauserguy

http://www.remesa1.com/Danzig1.jpg

Funderb
April 13, 2008, 02:22 PM
Hey! that one looks like the one I just finished making. Right down to the handgard.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/funderburk/Nathan/100_6256.jpg

Mauserguy
April 13, 2008, 02:39 PM
Is that a Yugo?
Mauserguy

Funderb
April 13, 2008, 04:22 PM
Indeed.
It was a fun little project. Also a blast to shoot. Kicks a little hard, but it came out to be, surprisingly, a 1moa rifle, and I'm sure it shoots better than me.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
April 13, 2008, 05:59 PM
Quote:
What is it that CA considers an assault weapon?

That's best answered with the flowchart.

Wow. My oh my [shaking head]. Those crazy "non-thumbhole" stocks for AR that make an end run around the law - those alone prove the absurdity of trying to ban so-called "assault weapons" - are they somehow less deadly? Attention California Legislators - you are idiots. If you want to make sausage, go work in a sausage plant - in fact, do *anything* but try to 'serve the public', and we'll all be the better for it. :(

mgregg85
April 13, 2008, 06:58 PM
I think i'd prefer a shotgun in a riot, though a hi cap rifle could be handy.

I'd like my sub-2000 with the 33 round mags. Light recoil, fast reloads, compact and easy to hide if needed. Could carry a lot of ammo easily.(I keep 50 rounds on mine, 33 round mag in the gun and a 17 rounder on the buttstock mag holder).

FuzzyBunny
April 13, 2008, 09:05 PM
I am not a big fan of Dragons Breath.

In a riot though the psychological effect of seeing a few rounds of that being lit off down the block would change my mind about going that way. They sure are impressive at night in an urban environment. Sure does cause a "What the heck was that" effect. Fired from a roof top would just be awesome. I doubt you would even have to hit anyone with it! Just fire off a few rounds every now and then to let them know there is a dragon down that way. This would be good in a defensive position.

If I was not protecting property or lives then I would make my way out of the area.

As far a rifles go, small overall size and .223 or larger round would do the trick. Magazine fed of course. Somethng I could run fast with.

goon
April 13, 2008, 11:06 PM
I'm thinking...

1. Don't live in California. Ever.

2. If you must, get yourself six Mosins. If you have to shoot someone, toss the rifle as soon as the riot is over and pretend you didn't see nuthin'. You should still be set for the next five riots.
Just kidding - sort of...

3. A handgun really is the gun you'd be most likely to have with you. Like it or not, it is what it is. Cops don't carry handguns because they're the best thing ever, they carry them because that's what they can carry easily.

4. If you really see the need to keep one in your trunk, make it a fairly cheap one. That way if your car gets stolen or torched before you can get your rifle out, at least you're not out the cost of a really expensive rifle.
How expensive/common are lever action 30-30's in California? They're a pretty good compromise between cost, firepower, and reliability and not restricted.

GunTech
April 14, 2008, 01:06 AM
Just dropped by my favorite local gun shop and they are selling Mosin for $79. Actually less, because they added in a 10% discount. Came with bayonet and ammo pouches too.

akodo
April 14, 2008, 10:50 PM
If you can justify shooting someone with a beanbag you can justify using real ammo. Beanbags are for cops.

exactly, how would you like to be hung out to dry afterwards for pointing a gun at someone in something less than a life-or-death situation (because if you really though it was life-or-death you'd use the most effective versitile shells, the fact that you took the time to use 'wounding' shells shows you weren't really in fear of your life)

Further, how does one counter a mob of 10, 50, or 200 people? One bullet for each? Of course not.

You shoot and kill the leading few and the rest will find an easier target. It is one thing to take on an easy mark, it is another thing to risk your life. Even a gang of 50, kill 3, and the other 47 will worry.

however, when you simply take 3 out of the fight with beanbags, the other 47 think "The worst that happens is I get hit with a beanbag, and that isn't all that likely with 47 others..." and so they just rush you.

Note, when police have used beanbags during a riot, watch the crowd. They get angry but they stop, and begin retreating. Now, look at footage of troops or police using real live ammunition on an unruly mob, the mob breaks and runs in panic.

A 1% chance of getting dazed with a beanbag is something to avoid but not devestatingly so

a 1% chance of getting shot with a real bullet and dying from it is an extremely pressing situation, and people flee at top speed from it.

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