[RobertFBurnett]

Hi all,

As the title indicated I am starting to look for a small revolver. I don't want to turn this into a brand vs. brand thread. What I am more interested in is the caliber.

I really enjoy the versatility of .357s. But that 642 is a tempting price, though I have never considered utilizing a .38 for SD. Is there any reason I am missing besides weight that makes the 642 more desirable than the 640?

RFB

P.S. Don't worry Ruger guys SP101 is in the running too, I just like S&W triggers better.

[Noxx]

I enjoy my 642 and it disappears in a pocket. If you feel you need heavier round, it's up to you.

[rgs1975]

Pro's of .38 over .357 for concealed carry:

Less dead weight
Less recoil (usually a light gun so it matters)
Less noise (no ear muffs in SD situation)
Less muzzle flash (SD at night is not uncommon)

[Old Dog]

Is there any reason I am missing besides weight that makes the 642 more desirable than the 640?
Good question; I ponder this periodically as I rotate my carry snubbies ... only difference is, I'm not into the hammerless models. I find that I actually carry my all-steel (Model 60s in both .38 and .357) more often than my Airweights (Model 37s). If you're going to restrict yourself to only pocket carry, perhaps the 642 is more desirable. But -- I keep seeing an awful lot of good-looking, lightly used pre-lock, pre-MIM 640s (for what I think are reasonable prices -- $375 - 450) in the shops and at the shows around here. That's less than a brandnew 642 out the door is gonna cost you, depending on region.

Personally, I find a good all-steel snubby is totally concealable with a good high-rise pancake holster, easier and faster for the draw and less annoying than pocket carry can be ...

rgs1975 makes good points, 'though some of those factors will vary depending on ammo choices.

[DaleCooper51]

My preference would be for the non-magnum frame 640 in .38 special. I've had a few 442's and they were great for carry, but a bit unpleasant to shoot when compared to the steel framed 640. Hot .38's are enough for me in a small revolver.

[Ala Dan]

The only snubby .357 magnum that I currently own is a 2.5"
barrel S&W model 66-4, with OEM S&W round butt grips. Its
not the lightest .357 currently made; but its weight helps to
control recoil really well. Properly carried in a belt slide, high
ride quality leather holster as made by Safariland, Don Hume,
Galco, Bianchi, Kirkpatrick, or many other fine maker's its a
joy to carry and shoot. Grant it, I shoot mid-range .38
Special L-SWC handloads; and reserve the magnums for
concealed carry~! ;) :D

[RobertFBurnett]

My range manager did bring up that the 686 2" is a heck of a snubby...little heavy for edc.

RFB

[S&Wfan]

There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with a snubbie using some decent SD ammo in .38 special caliber.

These light little guns are designed for deep carry . . . and for saving your bacon . . . and a properly placed .38 spl. round with end the fight, just as it always has. Conversely, the hottest .357 mag. load on the planet will not kill your attacker instantly if the bullet placement is off.

Forget loading .357 mag. in any snubbie. The harsh kick and bright flash will make follow up shots quite slow and hard, vs. using .38 special ammo in the same gun.

T.

[rantingredneck]

About the smallest gun I'd want to shoot much .357 out of is a 2.25" SP101. It's not unpleasant. J-frames in .357 are. I think much smaller than the SP and I'd go with a .38 personally.

[jfh]

If you're planning on carrying daily with your 2" barrel revolver--and not in a belt holster--I would recommend a lightweight j-frame. I started doing that last summer--and there is no doubt in my mind that the lightweight revolver is worth acclimating to, but it will take some effort on your part.

Personally, I prefer the S&W M&P340--that's the magnum-sized Scandium j-frame, 13.3 oz. I also have a 640 (SS - 24 oz.) and a M60-3". All three, equipped with the right grips, shoot just fine once your hand is conditioned.

In the lightweights, a popular carry round is the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 38+P 135-gr. round. That round, and the current Remington 38S12 (38+P 'FBI Load') should work just fine.

Although my hand is now well conditioned--I just shot over 300 rounds this afternoon through all three guns, in about 1.5 hours--I don't shoot hot magnums much if at all.

So, you've got some good advice here. If a carry gun is not your primary purpose, then I second the idea that you get a steel-framed 640, and the early / used ones should be just fine. (I'm not an anti-lock S&W fan--I find it irrelevant for a utilitarian-type revolver.) A 38+P frame should be just fine.

If you want to carry routinely, I would also recommend Crimson Trace grips for both training in point shooting and possible SD use. The 305 and 405 versions provide for a larger grip and recoil control. Otherwise, a Hogue Monogrip is desirable and cost-effective.

FWIW, I've now fired about 10,000 rounds through the 640, and its trigger is a dream--buttery smooth, and easy to stage. DAO is the way to fly!

Jim H.

[RobertFBurnett]

Good stuff, In this revolver I'm probably thinking save my bacon. So a .38+p gold dot (which I trust in my 9mm) would be fine.

Yes I live in California, no I don't have a CCW permit, but I choose my guns carefully, and may move sometime in the next 60 years. So if I'm ever in a carry situation it would either be this or a SIG 229..

Also I like the CT idea, I've often heard them recommended on fixed sight SD guns, and I'm really loving them on my SIG 226.

RFB

[ArchAngelCD]

I have both a S&W M638 (15oz Airweight .38 Special +P) and a S&W M640-1 (24oz Stainless .357 Magnum). I like them both but I just can't bring myself to carry the M640 because it's too heavy in my pocket but I do carry the M638 all the time. I don't feel the .38 Special is a poor SD round and don't really feel the need to carry a .357 Magnum. You may feel differently which is fine too.

[jfh]

ArchAngelCD summed it up well. If S&W would make a 38+P Scandium-framed J-frame, that's what I would buy now--but they won't sacrifice that increased profit margin on these "dual-caliber" revolvers.

I got the 640 and the M&P 340 the same day, with the intent of the 640 being the alternate carry gun. Heh, I find it too heavy for everyday pocket carry. Consequently, I picked a slightly-used 442 for alternate carry. I don't think the aluminum frames will last as long--but that's not really an issue with S&W current lifetime warranty routine.

Jim H.

[Murdock]

For any given weight of bullet, the only difference among any of the .36 caliber handguns is velocity. Doesn't matter if it's .357 magnum, .38 special, .380 ACP, .38 Super, .38 ACP, 9x19mm, 9x23, etc. Velocity drives the energy figures, penetration, "stopping power" and all that stuff.

The reputation of the .357 was originally made with the S&W pre-M27 8-3/8" barrel back in the 1930's, not with the 3.5-inch tube that quickly became popular for carry. The celebrated stopping power of the 125 grain .357 JHPs developed in the 1990s was based upon shootings with the 4-inch barrel, not the snubby.

I own, carry and shoot several snubbies in .38 Special. .357 magnum and 9mm, but I am very aware that there can be a lot of blast, flash and recoil that is not doing an efficient job of pushing that bullet out of the little gun. Also, the concept of training with one (mild) load and carrying another for defense always seemed a bit suspect to me.

In my conservative opinion, the very concept of a short-barrel magnum is oxymoronic, marketing hype. Short tubes just don't give the projectile enough time to accelerate down the bore ahead of all that gas, which was created by all that extra powder. Without a BIG boost in velocity (I'm thinking up to 1400-1500 FPS) it really isn't a magnum, except sometimes in the mind of the user. You just don't get the payoff in energy on the target that you pay for in recoil, pain, blast & flash.

Stick with the .38 Special and a 158 grain LSWC from a snubbie.

[Stainz]

Decide it's main use first. If you can legally CC, get something that will insure you will carry it all of the time. A holstered SS .357M does you little good when you are approached on the street by bgs if it was too big for your outfit and it's on the dresser at home. My choice is a pocket carry 642 (+P .38). I use a R. Mikas pocket holster. See the picture below - a .38 Spcl 642 and .44 Spcl 296, both in Mika's pocket holsters. The premise is simple - the 642 thus holstered will fit any of my pants (The 296 fits ~75%.), and can easily and quickly be retrieved from a front pocket. Additionally, some one shot stop statistics give the +P 158gr LHPSWC from a snubby a better rating than .45 ACP hard ball from a 1911. That's good enough for me.

Remember, you must be able to carry it anytime for it to be effective. Belt carry is out for me, thanks to Robert Mika. Of course, if you want a plinker, get a plinker!

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u307/Stainz_2007/IMG_0206.jpg

Stainz

[doc540]

SHOOT BEFORE YOU BUY

[specops]

There are other options besides S&W and Ruger. Tarsus makes an all steel 605 in .357 and the CIA is .38. There are also the various .44 Special stubbies, i.e. Charter Arms, S&W and Tarsus. I carry a Glock 36 (single stack 45 ACP) that actually conceals better in my front pants pocket than a stubby and it holds 7 rounds instead of 5. If you are set on a revolver you might want to look at Corbon ammo. The DPX, Pow'R Ball or Glaser all give excellent performance with minimal flash from sub-guns with increased velocity.
I also have a 3" Model 65 that is a great gun with either .38 or .357 but just too heavy for pocket carry. The same hold true for my Model 24 S&W with 2 1/2" tube (actually it's 3 1/4" from muzzle to forcing cone) or my Colt New Service in .45 Colt with 2" barrel. I know people used to carry them in a pants pocket but I don''t see how even given the differences in clothing styles back then. JMHO

[Revolver Ocelot]

if you are interested in a .357 I would recommend the 340 m&p which actually ways a couple onces less then the 642 (if that i a problem though I would recommend the 640 as it is all steel). Recently alot of the 340s have been hitting the market which has caused the price to drop a fair amount, right now on gunsamerica.com you can pick one up for about $670

[shooter429]

First of all, I'd like to say that I think a snub is an excellent choice for concealed carry. The power and reliability alone give it a nod against subcompacts like Bersa or KT .380s

Caliber choice is less important than your ability to shoot your snub well, but all else being the same, I think more power can be advantageous.

As far as the .38 v .357 debate goes, I prefer the .357 chambering because you can shoot the light .38s in them and work up to heavy magnums that will best the .38 by a large margin. And if you want .38+p/+ power, you can load the .357 brass light enough to equal the .38 +p/+ without the loss in velocity/accuracy you might otherwise sustain by shooting the shorter .38s out of a .357 chamber.A short article addresses these issues here
http://www.snubnose.info/docs/38-snub_vs_357-snub.htm

I much prefer the SS snub model 60 to the 340/360 both for reliability and shootability. If you decide a .38+p is enough you can get an airweight 637/8/42 for under $400 brand new, which splits the diff between weight of the 60 and 360, making it by far the best .38 snub/value in the industry.

Here's my latest snubby
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e339/shooter429/Nae357.jpg

Other considerations: .32 Federal/H&R is another viable choice for a defensive snub, giving an extra shot, less velocity and probably similar wound characteristics of the .357, though you would have to go with a 3" sp101, which might be a bit big/heavy for pocket carry.

Another choice that is often overlooked is to go with a Snub in .44 Magnum/Special. Though a bit bigger these pack even more power than the .357s while offering similar versatility.

A couple of last points to consider: Buy a quality snub. I suggest either S&W or Ruger with the nod to value going to S&W. Also, get a snub or grips that fit your hands and mitigate recoil. Then choose your ammo wisely and practice, practice, practice. Snubs are a great tool, but like everything you have to work with them a lot to get the most out of the package.

Hope this helps. Welcome to the club of snub :)

Shooter429

[RobertFBurnett]

Always Doc, always. :)

I know what your saying Murdock, I really wonder about that S&W PC 327 (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=11101&langId=-1&productId=14810&tabselected=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=15714) with like a 1" (I know its a 2" but it looks so tiny hanging off the front of an N frame.) German barrel. Ballistics wise I mean, not for the snub carry. :)

RFB

[Hobie]

I had the problem and solved it with a S&W 642 (http://home.comcast.net/~parslowb/2008/01/s-642-joins-family.html). In a Simply Rugged (http://www.simplyrugged.com) pocket holster it is just fine for my purposes. A Colt Agent or Cobra with shroud is just too big for my pockets, a SP-101 is too heavy (heck a S&W 40 is too heavy). A Keltec or Ruger LCP .380 ACP is not my cup of tea.

[johnnylaw53]

rgs1975 your link to the utube really got me upset. I heard of that but had no ideal how bad it was. the leo's and gaurdmen that did that should be ashame of them self they have no honor I spend 8 years in the military and 28 as a LEO there is no way i would of ever obey an order like that. what ever happen to those people in life which is bad it will never be more then they deserve for violation of people rights those that did this are no better then the germans that worked in the death camps and should be treated no better. sorry about the post i'm sure this is not the place for it but i hate seeing the country i love and served being changed into something ugly like this.
be safe

[tubeshooter]

I have a small .357, love it, great gun... but you probably could not pay me any amount of money to part with my (less powerful) dedicated .38 snub that was actually my first. I have always felt adequately armed and comfortable with it.


I tried a mousegun in .22 LR for a few months, and could not honestly say that. I think a man would be wise to not totally discount the .38 for the average SD role.

[batmann]

You will love a 442 (alloy), same as a 642 only lighter. It will carry well in a pocket or jacket and will always go bang when you need it. Use a GOOD hollow point and you are good to go.

[CZ.22]

Tarsus makes an all steel 605 in .357 and the CIA is .38
Yep. Saint Paul was known to produce revolvers in addition to tents.
You will love a 442 (alloy), same as a 642 only lighter. It will carry well in a pocket or jacket and will always go bang when you need it. Use a GOOD hollow point and you are good to go.
Aren't they the same gun with a different finish.

[MM]

Robert,
Just to stir the mix, would you consider a light framed .44 special?
MM

[RobertFBurnett]

^ Yeah!, ya got one in S&W for sale for less than $400? :)

The .44Special does intrigue me as a SD round, with the right load it could have many of the benefits rgs1975 mentioned about the .38:
Less recoil (usually a light gun so it matters)
Less noise (no ear muffs in SD situation)
Less muzzle flash (SD at night is not uncommon)

PLUS I git a box of Hornady .44Spec JHPs just sitting there doing nothing because my .44M is on its way back to Ruger.

RFB

[Gator]

....my .44M is on its way back to Ruger.


Oh no! The anniversary flat-top you just bought? What's wrong with it?

[Stainz]

Correction re the S&W 442 - it weighs the same as a 642. It differs in blued CS instead of SS for the barrel and cylinder, with essentially a black coated Al frame. I believe the 342 had the Ti cylinder, reducing it's mass by a bit. Of course, the 242 isn't part of the family - it's a 7-shot .357M L-frame Airlite that looks similar to my 296 5-shot .44 Special shown top below.

The 342 shares a 'jacketed only' warning with the 296, which also has a 200gr max bullet weight. Both are intended to lessen the probability of an unshot bullet jumping the crimp and jamming the cylinder. I like 158gr .38 Spcl +P LHPSWCs (as shown next to the 642 below), so I will stick with a 642/442. My preference in .44 Special is the Speer #4427 200gr thin walled/pre-stressed (Made for low speeds - 800fps+.) .44 Special bullet, like Speer loads in brass, their CCI Blazers in Al, and Georgia Arms loads in new Starline brass, all making ~805 fps from my 296.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u307/Stainz_2007/IMG_0207.jpg

Stainz

[RobertFBurnett]

Heya Gator,

Yeah my 50th Flattop is a bit of a lemon, the hammer won't pull back even when the base pin is fully seated. Several times I have got it to work, and it locks right back up. So they want to take a look at it, and are supposedly sending me UPS labels.

Have not even fired a round through it, except for snap-caps. But its a simple single action, Ruger will make it right so I'm not too worried. It does make me smile that my Evil S&W 686-6 with "MIM" parts and a IL "that can lock up on you at any time" has not given me any trouble, where the Ruger has. But I'm a bit subversive like that. ;) :evil:

Se La Vie (I do not speak French, let me know if thats misspelled),

RFB

[jetman]

Here's my daily carry. It's a Colt Agent, an alloy framed version of the Detective Special. It's a 6-shot +p 38.

http://inlinethumb37.webshots.com/17572/2294098460010258782S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2294098460010258782CvCUqt)
http://inlinethumb07.webshots.com/17158/2061429670010258782S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2061429670010258782HvtPuR)

[SwampWolf]

Nice looking Agent, jetman. A while back, I sold a 642 (I still have two steel-framed, non-lock J frames) and bought a 1966 era Cobra for pocket carry. Weighs the same as the 642, carries 20% more ammo on board and a decent speciman can be had for $400.00 or so with some judicious shopping.

[sixgunner455]

Quote:
You will love a 442 (alloy), same as a 642 only lighter. It will carry well in a pocket or jacket and will always go bang when you need it. Use a GOOD hollow point and you are good to go.
Aren't they the same gun with a different finish.

Yes, and the blued steel parts on the 442 are not stainless, as on the 642. For a close to the body, concealed piece, the 642 makes more sense to me. I've had little guns carried in pockets and so forth rust on me, and I don't like that. So when I went to buy a new snubbie (still have my Colt DS), I made certain to get a stainless one. 642 for me.

[Huddog]

I love my 642 for pocket carry and I carried my Mdl 49 in the pocket the other day. The few onces make a difference at least for me. I also like my 3 inch SP-101 but I always use a belt holster with it.

[rdrancher]

If pocket carry is your intent you really can't go wrong with a 642. Light, easy to pocket, and plenty comforting with SWCHC's.

On the other hand, if you're going to belt carry, the Ruger SP101 is pretty hard to beat, smaller than a K-frame and can handle magnum loads all day. My 2.25" model shoots POA with Buffalo Bore 158gr low flash Gold Dots. Quick follow up shots are a snap.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee37/rdrancher/BB_RD3_03.jpg

rd