Run in at Wal-Mart


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altitude_19
April 10, 2008, 05:59 AM
Someone said bars are out but other places of business ("Wal-Mart") were okay. I open carried late one night in Wal-Mart (Cheyenne, WY) once and was hastily advised by the manager (rudely) that it was illegal to carry in a department store. I had never heard of such legislation but agreed the authorities ought to be contacted to sort the matter out. Three gentlemen from Cheyenne PD arrived and one wasted no time berating the decision to open carry my firearm (his two partners were considerably more pleasant about things, even going so far as to make small-talk). I reminded the good officer he was not there to dole out advice, but to determine the veracity of the manager's claims (I was pushing my luck, but only because of frustration at being held up by a department store manager who thought he was a lawyer and a LEO on a power trip). The officer was then kind enough to confirm there was NO law against carrying in a department store (I'm sure the good people of the Wyoming state legislature have bigger fish to fry). The manager then advised (and I have my doubts as to the veracity of this claim as well) that there was a store policy against carrying firearms inside, despite the fact there are arms and ammo sold in the store. The funny thing is, following a late night out in the boonies where one feels obligated to protect oneself, I was actually there to buy ammo. I decided I could get fuel for the 30-06 later and took my business to the local gunshop the next day. So, does anyone know if there's any truth to Wal-Mart barring customers from carrying on the premises?

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smee781
April 10, 2008, 06:05 AM
Good question?

OMGWTFBBQ
April 10, 2008, 06:09 AM
As a matter of corporate policy they respect local and state laws concerning carry, meaning that if it's legal, they allow it, or atleast that's what I've always heard, and I've never seen any Wal-Mart posted before.

altitude_19
April 10, 2008, 06:11 AM
Which brings me to my next point...HOW WAS I SUPPOSED TO KNOW? I made sure to check for a poster on my way out and couldn't find one for the life of me.:banghead: As time passes, I find myself more apt to believe that guy was just pulling me leg.

FieroCDSP
April 10, 2008, 06:14 AM
The guy was mis-informed, both on the actual law and on company policy. Get the store number and the manager's name and call their corporate office. Explain what happened and ask that they politely remind that manager of what the policy is.

wristtwister
April 10, 2008, 06:42 AM
In South Carolina, a store must have a specific sign posted that prohibits the concealed carry of weapons, and it must have specific dimensions, etc. in order to comply with state law. Otherwise, you can carry anywhere except places where alcohol is served or specific sites as spelled out in state law. We don't have open carry except while hunting.

You may not, however, smoke in a public building... so it's okay to carry my gun into a department store, but not a pack of cigarettes and burn one within 10 feet of the front entrance. You're lucky you didn't have a cigarette hanging out of your mouth, or you'd have been busted!

It just shows how far the smoke nazis have come in this PC society... I don't even smoke, and hate to see this kind of stupidity.

By the way... Wal Mart has a "compliant" "NO SMOKING" sign on their front doors... so I might shoot you, but I'm going down if I blow smoke in your face...:neener:

WT

feedthehogs
April 10, 2008, 08:06 AM
As a pilot, you don't wait till there are 4 F16's waiting to escort you from doing figure 8's over the DC capital to know that it is against the law.

The same goes for carring a gun. Its your responsibility to know the open and concealed laws in your state. It is also your responsibility to know that if a store prohibits carrying guns inside that they need to display a sign in the window or if not required by law, a silent corporate policy.

With the advent of telephones and Al Gores internet it is about as easy as it gets to find that information out. Knowing the laws and being able to recite them when confronted can and will save you a whole bunch of hassle from anti gun store employees and police.

Never, ever depend on "some guy told me". There are never so many 1st year attorneys and junior g men that are gun owners.

As a 25 year gun instructor I have never seen so many, know so little.

There is quite the satisfaction when the "authorities" have no clue as to what the law states and when you explain it to them and they realize your right, the smile that comes over your face is infectious.

Robert Hairless
April 10, 2008, 08:43 AM
Never, ever depend on "some guy told me". There are never so many 1st year attorneys and junior g men that are gun owners.

As a 25 year gun instructor I have never seen so many, know so little.

And have such remarkably high self esteem. :)

F4GIB
April 10, 2008, 08:46 AM
8 8 8

F4GIB
April 10, 2008, 08:51 AM
Wal-Mart has no problem with legal concealed carry.

Wal-Mart does, for obvious reasons, HAVE a problem with open carry.

It upsets some other customers and that hurts business, so (if they spot you carrying openly) they will politely ask you to cover it up or leave. Your choice. In most states, they can ask you to leave their store for any reason at all ("no shirt, no shoes, no service). Some states, like Texas, require a special sign, etc.

Target, BTW, has the same policies. They make good sense from their POV.

No state (that I'm aware of) has a LAW specifically against carry in department stores. It is just a store policy.

Cover it up or leave it in your truck.

jwxspoon
April 10, 2008, 08:56 AM
I've always felt that open carry in shopping locations is ill advised, even if legal. Where and when I carry it is my business. I much prefer the concealed route.

jw

WayneConrad
April 10, 2008, 09:05 AM
Those of you who don't like open carry? Good for you. It's very helpful to the original poster, I'm sure, for him to know that.

altitude_19, nice job.

Wal-Mart does not have a corporate policy against open carry. Nor does Target. Can't tell you how much money I've dropped in Wal-Mart, especially.

F4GIB, Language, please?

Deanimator
April 10, 2008, 09:23 AM
Cover it up or leave it in your truck.

There are plenty of Walmarts that don't care. If it's not against the law or corporate policy, there's no reason not to do it.

nodlenor
April 10, 2008, 09:49 AM
I'm not sure what the actual policy is but at the Wal-Mart store I go to when you buy a gun an employee will carry the gun out the door and then hand it to the customer.

P95loser
April 10, 2008, 09:49 AM
I, for one, prefer to keep the attention away from myself. Again going to the idea that I don't want anyone other than my friends and family knowing I have guns (to prevent burglary).

However, I am not aware of any policy against open carry. I believe to substantiate such a policy, they would have to openly post their policy at each entrance.

On another note, Target is so anti, they don't even sell airsoft or cap guns for kids.

savetheclaypigeons
April 10, 2008, 09:58 AM
may not be a bad idea to print a business card sized paper with your local gun laws on it and keep it in your wallet

Ash
April 10, 2008, 09:59 AM
wrist...

If you shoot somebody at Wally World, you'll go down, too. Frankly I hate going through cigarette smoke and consider it pretty darn inconsiderate for smokers to expect non-smokers to endure their habit. It's not like I go into their swimming pools to pee.

As to open carry, these days it makes the sheep nervous - including managers. I would not do it in a store for that reason alone.

Ash

altitude_19
April 10, 2008, 10:03 AM
Thanks to WayneConrad and Deanimator for the backup...let's try to keep it tasteful here, shall we? Now on to the mitigating circumstances I should have mentioned before: When I pulled up (around 0300) a roudy looking bunch in the parking lot noticed I was armed. I decided (and think many of you will agree) that ditching the weapon in the truck, a 76 Chevy with no alarm, would have been ill-advised as I would have likely come out to find it gone and a window busted. That's when I made the call to open carry for a couple reasons: 1.)It was late and populace in the store would be minimal 2.)I was well dressed and posed no menacing image 3.)I only needed a couple boxes of ammo and would just be in the store a few minutes. 4.)Leaving the weapon in the lot would have posed a deplorable hazard to public safety, given its present occupants. I'm willing to go to certain lengths for the sake of another's skitishness, but not at the risk of a stolen weapon that would likely be used in a crime later. I will do my best not to leave anything out, if you will all be so kind as to refrain from assumptions when I momentarily fail to do so. :D

armoredman
April 10, 2008, 10:16 AM
WalMart out here gives no hassle to open carry gun owners. Places that do find themselves lacking for business a bit.

ZeSpectre
April 10, 2008, 10:27 AM
As a matter of corporate policy they respect local and state laws concerning carry, meaning that if it's legal, they allow it

Remember folks, laws do not make things legal, they make things prohibited, therefore if something is not prohibited it is, by default, legal.

Treo
April 10, 2008, 10:27 AM
I think you made a good call on not leaving the weapon in the truck. Being a non-confrontational kinda guy myself I'd have left as soon as the manager asked me to.

As for the "don't be an ass" thing he wasn't calling you a butt, he was saying you were being a jackass (I.E. stuborn) I don't think it's cussing in that context.

JerryM
April 10, 2008, 10:31 AM
If one desires to OC, and it is not illegal then go for it. However, you must realize that you might be challenged by store or mall managers or others. If you can handle that OK.

Unless I am on the way from the range and stop to get a sandwich I prefer to CC, but I realize some prefer OC, and some just want to make a statement. If you are willing to take the flak and possibly be detained by uninformed police officers or security folks for OC then that is fine with me.

Juist don't be too surprised when it happens. I would not have expected it in Wyoming.

Best,
Jerry

csmkersh
April 10, 2008, 10:34 AM
Altitude_19, you'll find (personal insult removed)
Good show and glad things worked out for you.

As to WM carrying gun purchases out the front door, that's corporate policy. Might be dumb, but blame the lawyers.

Mr. Designer
April 10, 2008, 10:36 AM
In South Carolina, a store must have a specific sign posted that prohibits the concealed carry of weapons, and it must have specific dimensions, etc. in order to comply with state law. Otherwise, you can carry anywhere except places where alcohol is served or specific sites as spelled out in state law. We don't have open carry except while hunting.
Can you open carry while fishing?

ZeSpectre
April 10, 2008, 10:42 AM
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

altitude_19
April 10, 2008, 10:48 AM
It seems that if one is seen open carrying, the first assumption is that they're showing off. Sadly, there are often valid reasons for an OC. I prefer CC, but as I said, I was left with few options in this instance (nothing to conceal it with, and nowhere to securely store it in the truck).

Dave P
April 10, 2008, 11:03 AM
Can you open carry while fishing?


In Florida, it seems that the law says you can open carry "(h) A person engaged in fishing, camping, or lawful hunting or going to or returning from a fishing, camping, or lawful hunting expedition;"

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0790/ch0790.htm

WayneConrad
April 10, 2008, 11:11 AM
As to open carry, these days it makes the sheep nervous - including managers. I would not do it in a store for that reason alone.
Please explain in what way being armed for your defense is different than wearing a cross or yarmulka or a 2nd amendment t-shirt, or gathering in the park with your friends, or exercising any other of your rights, that you should have to hide it because it "makes the sheep nervous."

NavyLCDR
April 10, 2008, 11:27 AM
Why can't store managers just explain to customers who show concern that it is perfectly legal what they are doing (open carrying) and that they are just average joe citizen carrying about his business and no more of a threat to anyone than anyone else is.

And what if the gang-banger looking thugs with the baggy pants make me nervous? If I complain to the Wal-Mart manager is he going to ask them to change their dress or leave? I doubt it.

altitude_19
April 10, 2008, 11:27 AM
Wayne, I don't see the difference at all. But I'm willing to concede that legality doesn't equate to manners. IE: I can legally swear all I &$%#in' please, but that doesn't make it polite. It doesn't slow me down to avert my profanity, so make it a point to do so (while maintaining the right to drop the nicities as I see fit). Bottom line, while some of the more considerate folks we count amongst the number of the RKBA front may keep the iron out of sight, it should NOT be expected, demanded, or required. And it should be appreciated when we elect to exercise the consideration. If the open-carry flak gets heavy I just pose this question: "You didn't seem to mind my openly carrying a firearm in your defense on two combat tours overseas, and now you intend to make an issue of my carrying a weapon in MY OWN defense in my own country?"

rdalrymple
April 10, 2008, 11:38 AM
Can you open carry while fishing?

Yes.

SC Code of Laws, SECTION 16-23-20. Unlawful carrying of handgun; exceptions.

It is unlawful for anyone to carry about the person any handgun, whether concealed or not, except as follows, unless otherwise specifically prohibited by law:

(4) licensed hunters or fishermen who are engaged in hunting or fishing or going to or from their places of hunting or fishing while in a vehicle or on foot;

SRT1
April 10, 2008, 11:39 AM
Here in Kansas, except for specific places listed in the carry law itself (mainly schools), the business has an obligation to post a specific sign of specific dimensions to alert those who carry that it does not want carry in that store. Without that sign you can carry legally within the law.
Having said that, I think I would bow to the wishes of the management if they were to ever notice me carrying and asked me not to do so in their store. It would do nothing but help relations between business and those who carry and I wouldn't make a scene over it simply because it woud draw attention of those looking for an excuse to make a headlline for the anti gunners. I consider it my responsibility when carrying, to ensure that my weapon is concealed and will not be noticed by anyone, friend or foe. We here in KS do not have an open carry provision, so I understand your circumstnaces are a little different, but in your situation, as long as I was legally able to do so, I think I'd have just tucked my pistol under cover and then returned to buy whatever without having it out in plain sight. Just my opinion.
SRT
SRT

altitude_19
April 10, 2008, 11:46 AM
Again, didn't have anything to conceal it with. Manager can gripe and play lawyer all he likes...I doubt he would have preferred that I leave it in the parking lot to get stolen. And I'm not one to make a scene, but I couldn't have if I wanted to. It was 0300 and I didn't see any other customers in the store throughout the ordeal. All the same, I asked to take the conversation into a side-room while we waited for Cheyenne PD to arrive to clear it all up.

Ash
April 10, 2008, 11:46 AM
"Please explain in what way being armed for your defense is different than wearing a cross or yarmulka or a 2nd amendment t-shirt, or gathering in the park with your friends, or exercising any other of your rights, that you should have to hide it because it "makes the sheep nervous.""

I would assume you are not actually being obtuse in wondering why people would be nervous at the actual sight of a pistol on the hip of someone who is not a cop. Beyond that, I have no answer because I mentioned what I would or would not do. In this case, I would not, nor do I currently, open carry in a store.

If you cannot understand that people are ignorant and trained to be fearful of firearms on the other hand, well, I can't help with that, either. But a man with a "Death from above" t-shirt is different than a man with a side-arm in this modern, frightened society. I do not say it is right, but I do observe the facts as they are and say how I react to them. I do not choose to carry open in cities. If you would like to, you have my support. Do not, however, act surprised when a manager approaches you or regular folks react in any negative way to your choice.

I often wear a kilt in public. I am not offended by the ignorant when I wear one.

Ash

Mainsail
April 10, 2008, 11:58 AM
I had a similar situation at the Wal-Mart in Lakewood WA. The greeter wasn’t sure so he sent me to the manager who insisted it was illegal and/or not allowed. The next morning I called the regional manager but ended up speaking to the regional head of security. He told me their policy was to follow state law. He checked and found that there is no law against open carry and so he said he would contact the manager at the Lakewood store and let him know the policy. I have carried my Sig 1911 in there at least a dozen times since without incident*. Try as I might, I could not get anything from them in writing on the issue.

*I did have one shopper inform me that my pistol had become exposed and I told him that I wasn’t carrying concealed. He told me it was against the law and I corrected him. I also added that we do not need a permit to carry a firearm unless we’re going to carry concealed. He was surprised and said it was just like Arizona, but concealed carry was illegal there. I guess he hadn’t been back there in a while. :rolleyes:

WayneConrad
April 10, 2008, 12:02 PM
Ash, my point is this: Why is the onus on you, and not on the "nervous sheep?" Why is the 2nd amendment right the poor stepchild, to be ashamed of and hidden away, when the other rights are expected to be worn proudly and tolerated by others?

Would you think poorly of a Wal-Mart manager who asked you to hide a religious icon? Would you think the customer who did so was knuckling under?

Treo
April 10, 2008, 12:30 PM
To add some perspective to the discussion; Altitude said his original goal in going to the Wal-Mart was to get ammunition.

Did he accomplish his goal?

Nope

He also said that his intent was in, out get the bullets (maybe some nachos) and be gone in less than 10 minutes.

Did he meet his intent

Nope

What did he accomplish?
1.Argument W/ a manager
2. Got to wait a half hour or so for the cops to show up. That's always a fun thing to do at 3 AM .
3. Got to argue W/ a cop , never really a brilliant tactical move.
4. Got to make an extra trip to WM ,Gas is what, 3.50 a gallon now?
5. And finally got to reinforce the anti's negative stereotypes about gun owners.

All in all I'd say this was a stellar victory for the 2nd ammendment
NOT!

I'd have left as soon as the manager confronted me ( or kept it concealed ) & called HIS boss.

Ash
April 10, 2008, 12:33 PM
Wayne, I got kicked out of the fancy Beau Rivage casino on my wife's birthday because I was wearing a sgian dubh in my sock. This is a short knife worn with the kilt - we were in formal attire for my wife's birthday. I know, KNOW, what it is like to face that kind of idiocy. After all, who wears a kilt and commits murder?

My response is never, NEVER, to shadow their door again.

Ash

brighamr
April 10, 2008, 12:47 PM
THR Policy: If someone asks a question regarding OC, at least 5 people must respond why not to do it, even though it is a 2A right and is completely legal in a lot of states.

OP: There was a recent thread in general discussions, the host was a walmart manager. You can search for that thread and ask him for advice on how to get this anti-manager what he deserves.

wickedsprint
April 10, 2008, 12:59 PM
I also live here in cheyenne, you ABSOLUTELY need to call corporate walmart, from what I understand they will put the store manager in his place for going against walmart policy.

oldfart
April 10, 2008, 01:00 PM
First off- I don't carry anymore. My hands don't always do what I want them to and I might end up blowing my own butt off. Beyond that, if the law does allow open carry, then why not do so? Sure, some soccer mom may get worried when she sees you but after you've left and there's no bloodbath on aisle 9 she just might get a small seed growing in the back of her beady little brain, one that'll grow into a lucid thought: Maybe guns aren't all evil! Maybe ordinary citizens can be trusted with them!

Most people here think CC is/was a huge victory. I'm not so sure. As I watch our country and government slide along on the downward spiral to... what? I wonder what will happen to those lists of CC holders when Big Brother finally takes the big step. Along with that though, we seem to have willingly adopted the idea of exercising our Second Amendment right in secret, as if it is something shameful. I know, everyone will jump up now and say how 'proud' they are to be able to CC but they still don't want to worry the soccer moms at Wal Mart. But those soccer moms don't pay your rent or put gas in your car so why worry about their feelings. Instead, why not dress properly, with no baggy camo pants or "Vote From the Rooftops" shirts and your gun carried in a proper holster? Who knows? By using this approach you might change one of those minds, whereas hiding in the shadows will only reinforce the sterotypical image of a gunowner.

Just a thought....

altitude_19
April 10, 2008, 01:15 PM
1.Argument W/ a manager
2. Got to wait a half hour or so for the cops to show up. That's always a fun thing to do at 3 AM .
3. Got to argue W/ a cop , never really a brilliant tactical move.
4. Got to make an extra trip to WM ,Gas is what, 3.50 a gallon now?
5. And finally got to reinforce the anti's negative stereotypes about gun owners.

1. The manager is more informed and will not bother the police again now that he knows what the law REALLY is. And I DID leave when confronted, immediately after the PD cleared everything up. I'd been accused of a crime and I make it a point not to walk away while my good name is still in question.
2. I'm happy to wait a half-hour if ANYONE walks away from the experience smarter. I'm sorry to hear if you aren't willing to invest that time in your bill of rights.
3. I'll argue with any cop who is WRONG. Even LEO's have bounds. Call it stagnate American Tradition...but I just don't tolerate oppression and abuse of authority.
4. I don't buy ammo from Wal-Mart any more. Someone who walks your new weapon out for you? Even crack dealers let you use on premises.
5. Not sure how I reinforced any negative stereotype. The manager is likely more educated than he has been in recent years. Nobody will overcome a fear of firearms through a lack of exposure to the same...incidental though it may be.

misterwhipple
April 10, 2008, 01:46 PM
1. The manager is more informed and will not bother the police again now that he knows what the law REALLY is. And I DID leave when confronted, immediately after the PD cleared everything up. I'd been accused of a crime and I make it a point not to walk away while my good name is still in question.
2. I'm happy to wait a half-hour if ANYONE walks away from the experience smarter. I'm sorry to hear if you aren't willing to invest that time in your bill of rights.
3. I'll argue with any cop who is WRONG. Even LEO's have bounds. Call it stagnate American Tradition...but I just don't tolerate oppression and abuse of authority.
4. I don't buy ammo from Wal-Mart any more. Someone who walks your new weapon out for you? Even crack dealers let you use on premises.
5. Not sure how I reinforced any negative stereotype. The manager is likely for educated than he has been in recent years. Nobody will overcome a fear of firearms through a lack of exposure to the same...incidental though it may be.

Sir (Ma'am?):

This is very likely the most temperately phrased and well-reasoned rejoinder I have seen on THR so far. Thank you for writing it.

JesseL
April 10, 2008, 01:50 PM
It's absolutely shocking how many people here on The High Road, would rather permanently lose their rights to the death of a thousand cuts, than bear the inconvenience of having someone question their lawful behavior.:banghead:

altitude_19, good on you for sticking to your guns!:D

The people at my local Wal-Mart don't even blink when I walk in with a Ruger Blackhawk carried in a low slung Mexican double loop holster on a full cartridge belt, and I aim to keep it that way.

WayneConrad
April 10, 2008, 01:54 PM
You don't even have to oppress someone in the U.S. to abridge their rights. You only need to inconvenience them, and they'll abridge their own rights for you.

Good golly.

altitude_19, again, nicely done.

altitude_19
April 10, 2008, 01:55 PM
Misterwhipple: It's ordinarily Sergeant, but Sir will do just fine. Many thanks! In fact, thanks to all on both sides. BY GOD, I do enjoy a good American debate. It warms my heart to know my friends haven't died in vain.

RIP A1C Eric Barnes

coloradokevin
April 10, 2008, 02:04 PM
In my humble opinion, open carrying is just asking for undue attention from citizens, employees, and perhaps law enforcement (if they get called by citizens or employees). If you are willing to deal with that attention, then more power to you! I choose not to, but that is (of course) just my choice!

Fact is, guns scare many people in our society, and it doesn't fit with the "norms" of our culture these days!

We all know that... And we should all expect that this kind of things is going to happen if we do choose to open carry in a grocery store! Good or bad, it is reality.

Just because you have the right to do something, doesn't mean that doing it is something I would recommend. For example, you could be well within your legal rights to tattoo a swastica on your forehead, but it doesn't mean that you will be readily accepted in society! Likewise, if you stood in the middle of a Walmart store while exercising your 1st ammendment rights to tell everyone that you didn't support Walmart's "big business" tactics, they would probably be inclined to tell you to leave the property! Either of those examples are legal, and neither (on it's own) could get you arrested.

Also, around here stores have the right to ask someone to leave their property. If they tell you to, and you don't, it is trespassing. Obviously you could always file a complaint with their corporate office... But, if I show up at Walmart, and the staff tells me that they ask a person to leave, and that person refused, then it is my job to make them leave or arrest them. (not saying that this situation rose to that level... but just clarifying that a private business is often allowed to tell someone to leave).

So, if you like to open carry, more power to you. Just be prepared to get a bit of attention that you normally wouldn't, and be prepared to leave the property if you are told to by an employee or law enforcement officer (if the laws are the same in that part of the country).

P95loser
April 10, 2008, 02:06 PM
I got no problem with open carry, I just don't have the balls to do it.

Coyote Hunter
April 10, 2008, 02:09 PM
The reason we carry a weapon is for self defense. I carry open on my farm (unless it's covered by my coat in the winter). But when I go to town, it's concealed. My main reason (other than the attention from soccer moms) is I do not want the bad guy to know I'm carrying, it's the element of surprise and raises the bar a little higher on my side. If the gentleman or gentlewoman of the criminal persuasion see's someone carrying a gun, I believe they will more likely take that person out first and without warning because he is the biggest threat. Getting a bullet in the back of the head kinda ends the arguement of if I'm right or wrong lawfully.

RP88
April 10, 2008, 02:11 PM
company policy or not, the reality is that they can still choose not to serve you as a customer for any reason, at any discretion. Even with a complaint about your actions that were well within the law, chances are that the reviewer of said complaint will agree with the manager and not bother giving it a second look.

That is why it is so much better to CCW than it is openly. Even if you have the right to do it, people will still have reasonable right to mess with you, give you looks, call the police to lecture and bother you, etc. etc.

I had my uncle get hassled for it by a cop. The cop thought it was stupid for him to open-carry, and lectured him about appearance, blah blah blah, and recommended him to get his CHP instead. At least his was somewhat polite, but the truth is most people (as in the ones who are easily threatened or scared) won't be.

ZeSpectre
April 10, 2008, 02:11 PM
Fact is, guns scare many people in our society, and it doesn't fit with the "norms" of our culture these days!

Fact is there are a lot of things that scare "people" including tattoos, biker leather, being black, piercings, wearing a turban, speaking another language...the list goes on and on.

Should we all learn to be more discerning about what actually constitutes a threat or just all fall into someone's narrow definition of "normal" so as to avoid all conflict?

Now personally I prefer CCW, but it's mostly because if someone ever (God Forbid!) assaults me I want them to have a very nasty surprise coming their way but I see nothing wrong with wanting to establish open carry as a normal activity.

Deanimator
April 10, 2008, 02:19 PM
Fact is there are a lot of things that scare "people" including tattoos, biker leather, being black, piercings, wearing a turban, speaking another language...the list goes on and on.
Americans shouldn't cater to the prejudices of the ignorant and the malicious. We should be poking holes in them every chance we get.

No bully EVER stopped being a bully because he got his way.

Ash
April 10, 2008, 02:19 PM
It is legal to run into an ethnic neighborhood and utter racial epithets. I wouldn't recommend it.

Using open carry for political reasons my convince folks that it is an okay thing to do. It may also have open carry banned. Am I afraid of Walmart folks? Not in the least. However, I am also smart enough to avoid needless confrontation. Open carry in a place where you know you will be confronted will make few friends.

But hey, do it. Fine by me. I open carry where it matters, not at the local Wally World (where, should SHTF, you CAN actually arm yourself in the store).

Ash

BB62
April 10, 2008, 02:25 PM
A site you should become familiar with is www.opencarry.org - especially the forums.

coloradokevin
April 10, 2008, 02:27 PM
I will add this as well on the Open Carry issue:

The laws in my state are convoluted and complicated on that one matter. If you want to concealed carry in your car, anywhere in the state, you can do so without a permit, etc.

But, if you want to open carry, you are forced into the realm of local municipal ordinances.

All of this stems from a "home rule" type provision in the state constitution, which (to the best of my understanding) essentially gives each jurisdiction the right to make any laws concerning matters of "local concern".

As such, weapons issues have had several heated court cases in recent years, and the results of these cases have come down with some issues being considered a matter of "state" concern, while others have been considered "local" concerns. These court battles came out of disputes between the state and various municipalities concerning what was a local v. state concern!

So, to further complicate the matter, concealed carry is a matter of state concern, and the municipal laws prohibiting it have been overturned. However, to some degree, the laws on Open Carry have been designated as a matter of local concern... thus leaving the open-carrying citizen facing a slew of different laws. A similar ruling occured on the so-called "assault weapons" statutes. (if memory serves, this decision stemmed from the 2004 rulling by Judge Meyers, with Denver's District Court... but I'm not positive on that)

These things are constantly evolving too, as court rulings are made... So, I'm sad to say that even a lot of LE agencies aren't always up-to-date on the legal decision of the day (as determined by law, court, appeals court, constitution, and state-vs-local arguments). Sometimes local statutes are on the books one way, but court rulings have said otherwise, and state statutes contridict both the local ordinance and court ruling...

With a system like that, who could know what is allowed and what isn't?!

In my opinion, we have a silly system in place in this state right now (minus the concealed carry -- which is now handled on the state level), and I'd love to see more people who are willing to 'test' the rulings in court!

To me: firearms are a matter of state (well, even national) concern, and I think the entire ruling in my state should have put the power back at the state level. The law right now leaves too much grey area, and confuses a lot of folks!

JesseL
April 10, 2008, 02:34 PM
In my humble opinion, open carrying is just asking for undue attention from citizens, employees, and perhaps law enforcement (if they get called by citizens or employees). If you are willing to deal with that attention, then more power to you! I choose not to, but that is (of course) just my choice!

I am perfectly willing to deal with that attention, if I ever get it. Almost 9 years of open carry experience now, without any attention beyond the occasional stranger asking "whadya need a gun fer?".

Even if you have the right to do it, people will still have reasonable right to mess with you, give you looks, call the police to lecture and bother you, etc. etc.


If that ever happens, I'll gladly exercise my right to either ignore or educate all of them.

At this point, I'm wondering if I should do a little open carry missionary work. Since open carry is virtually 100% acceptable here, maybe I should make some effort to raise awareness and respect for rights elsewhere. All these other places that have such dire consequences for legal OC sound like they could use it.

stevereno1
April 10, 2008, 02:50 PM
Wal Mart has no policy pertaining to it's customers carrying of firearms. The only policy that we have pertains to it's employees, or as we call them, Associates.

Treo
April 10, 2008, 02:58 PM
QUOTE: "1. The manager is more informed and will not bother the police again now that he knows what the law REALLY is"

There's really only one way to test that theory, knock your self out.

I don't see that you furthered the cause of open carry at all the cops knew you were legal already & one of them still chose to hand you a ration.

As for the manager you added to the stress of his work day probably caused him more paper work & pissed him off, people don't get "educated" when they're pissed they get pissed . how is that NOT reinforcing a negative stereotype?

Based on what I've read so far I'd guess that you pushed the issue in the first place. Who makes a special trip to WM at 3 AM just to pick up ammunition?

I think you were trying to prove a point.

If all that hassel was worth it to you just to be "right" have at it.

FYI while you were defending your rights to the manager and the cops, I parked right next to your truck , walked right by the rowdy kids and the greeter. picked up a gallon of milk, a 2 liter of Cherry Pepsi, 2 boxes of S&W .40 , some nachos & the latest issue of the national liar ( the one W/ the article about Hillary Clinton & Hannah Montana's lesbian love affair) And walked out in less than 10 the only difference is I was carrying concealed, well that and I got what I was after W/out any hassels.

Cosmoline
April 10, 2008, 03:04 PM
Why are you so willing to bankrupt the future? That store is pratically a branch of the chicoms.

JesseL
April 10, 2008, 04:18 PM
As for the manager you added to the stress of his work day probably caused him more paper work & pissed him off, people don't g]et "educated" when they're pissed they get pissed . how is that NOT reinforcing a negative stereotype?


The manager is the one who caused himself extra stress and paperwork, by making wrongful assumptions about state law and corporate policy. altitude_19 didn't do anything wrong. He has no control over what some misinformed manager is going to decide isn't right.

You clearly don't think open carry is a good idea, and that's your right. It doesn't make all these idiots justified in getting themselves worked up over behavior is peaceful, legal, and within the policies of the property owners. The manager was no more justified in his actions than if he had confronted and called the police about an african-american person in his store.

Art Eatman
April 10, 2008, 04:42 PM
This thread would possibly have a better chance of remaining open if folks would play "Let's pretend": Pretend your mother, your preacher and your employer are all reading your posts...

Art

altitude_19
April 10, 2008, 07:35 PM
Treo: I do enjoy you ferver and passion for a good discussion. :D
As for the manager you added to the stress of his work day probably caused him more paper work & pissed him off, people don't get "educated" when they're pissed they get pissed . how is that NOT reinforcing a negative stereotype?
He sure didn't seem stressed when he apologized for calling the cops in the first place and advised no such incident would be elevated to that level again.
Who makes a special trip to WM at 3 AM just to pick up ammunition?
Someone who was passing it on the way and needed to trim an errand off the next day's busy itinerary.
I think you were trying to prove a point.
I'll thank you not to presume to know my mind, Sir. Every assumption you've drawn has been refuted. I welcome any questions. Nobody welcomes pretention.
If all that hassel was worth it to you just to be "right"
Absolutely not...but that wasn't the objective. It is ABSOLUTELY WORTH IT to educate the manager, while perhaps prompting one LEO to reconsider his habit of handing out mocking advice, rather than citations. I've had too many men on the far side of this world make attempts on my life to stand for and LEO barking orders at me before I've committed a crime. I respect their positions and vested authority, so long as they respect my rights. This is America, and if the Commander in Chief can be impeached, no LEO is beyond reproach.
picked up a gallon of milk, a 2 liter of Cherry Pepsi, 2 boxes of S&W .40 , some nachos & the latest issue of the national liar
I sincerely doubt that...to my knowledge, WM doesn't sell PISTOL ammo past 2100. Forgive my smart-allec tendencies, I just find it's better to lace a fervent discussion with the occasional wise-crack to lighten the mood. :D

misterwhipple
April 10, 2008, 09:17 PM
Sergeant, if you are ever in Northern Virginia, I hope you will give us a heads up. I would very much like to shake your hand and buy you a drink.

Hanzerik
April 10, 2008, 09:21 PM
As one who used to do overnight stocking at said Walmart, I can say at 3AM the place is deserted at that time, and same pretty much goes for the whole city of Cheyenne. I'm surprised anyone even noticed, unless you went back to the sporting goods section where the managers sometimes help with stocking. And that rough bunch outside the store was more then likely employees on a smoke break. Not to talk trash about them, but some are on the shady side.

Personally I have never OCd in the Cheyenne Walmart, I have a CWP so I usually have a shirt tail covering it.

District Managers name is Tim Hammack, # 307-773-8674 (Not a FE Warren extension)

I take it you are a fellow USAF member like myself? (I'm a FM, maybe we know each other)

Sage of Seattle
April 10, 2008, 09:28 PM
Unless I am on the way from the range and stop to get a sandwich I prefer to CC, but I realize some prefer OC, and some just want to make a statement. If you are willing to take the flak and possibly be detained by uninformed police officers or security folks for OC then that is fine with me.

If you are willing to take the flak and possibly be detained by uninformed police officers or security folks for having your CC piece accidentally exposed, then that is fine with me too.

ServiceSoon
April 10, 2008, 09:31 PM
Is this (http://www.opencarry.org/wy.html) what you are looking for?

Sage of Seattle
April 10, 2008, 09:50 PM
The reason we carry a weapon is for self defense. I carry open on my farm (unless it's covered by my coat in the winter). But when I go to town, it's concealed. My main reason (other than the attention from soccer moms) is I do not want the bad guy to know I'm carrying, it's the element of surprise and raises the bar a little higher on my side. If the gentleman or gentlewoman of the criminal persuasion see's someone carrying a gun, I believe they will more likely take that person out first and without warning because he is the biggest threat. Getting a bullet in the back of the head kinda ends the arguement of if I'm right or wrong lawfully.

I respect your decision to carry however you wish -- as long as you keep on carryin'!

Here's how I look at the issues you raised: there is x percentage that I will get mugged walking down the street appearing unarmed.

There is x+y percentage (with y being greater than one) that I will get mugged as I walk down the street appearing unarmed and disabled.

I have an x-g percentage (with g being greater than one) of getting mugged as I appear armed and disabled, seeing as how I'm a far higher threat than an unarmed individual.

Now, there's also a z percentage that a bad guy will take me out first seeing that I'm armed. With z being less than x in my opinion. This is how I see the odds, and how I'm willing to play them.

Besides, isn't the greatest victory in battle the battle never fought?

I would much rather take the risk of getting taken out first because my weapon is visible, than the much much higher risk of being jumped, mugged, attacked while I CANNOT RUN AWAY OR DODGE OR FIGHT HAND TO HAND because I appear to be unarmed!

I guess most of you posters are young or physically fit or have some other relative advantage. I do not, and many people do not, have that LUXURY of running away. Some do not have the luxury of tucking away their firearm, far from the frightened eyes of soccermoms everywhere. Some do not have the luxury of appearing unarmed, and therefore, weak and easy prey.

For all of those who question the right of any of us to open carry, what are you so afraid of?

LAK Supply
April 10, 2008, 09:59 PM
Altitude-

I find it interesting that some here would question the basis of your decision to open carry. The fact of the matter is that IT'S NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS WHY YOU WANT TO CARRY. Don't feel obligated to defend yourself to them.... this is the same attitude that has helped progress the gun laws to what they are today.

Open Carry is a protected right in Wyoming; you happened to run into a manager who was uninformed and let his fear or discomfort drive his decision. People like this are one of the problems in society; their tendency to freak out and take illogical action when they see a firearm in public is the reason many people don't carry openly.

Although I don't generally feel the need for it, I OC sometimes just BECAUSE I CAN. It's my right, and it's nobody else's business why I want to. My ability to defend my life is worth more than their desire for false security. If everybody is too scared to OC because of what others may think the anit's and idiots of society have successfully undermined an inherent right.

I live in NE Wyo, and I OC on a fairly regular basis. I have been through Wal-Mart on many occasions with everything from a full-size HK USP or Glock 20 to a Kel-Tec P3AT on my hip. I've gotten a few looks, but I really don't care. The more people that carry responsibly in public the less evil those guns will appear. This is Wyoming.... I'd hate for it to turn into a place like CA because the good people were too afraid to scare the idiots.

Wal-Mart has no policy here, and your OCing is 100% legal in WY as long as you are not in a restricted place. The interesting thing is that some places off-limits to CC here are legal for OC.

TCB in TN
April 10, 2008, 10:21 PM
Fact is, guns scare many people in our society, and it doesn't fit with the "norms" of our culture these days!

Perhaps it is time to change those cultural norms! I CC most of the time, but around the farm I OC, and on more than one occasion LEOs have stopped by to ask directions or something like that and most have not even commented about the pistol on my hip. My only experience with OC involved running into a local conv. store to get milk with my revolver still on my hip having forgotten to pull on my over shirt. Maybe 5 or 6 people inside and the only comment was from the cashier who asked what I was carrying. Another customer commented that it was cool to see folks exercising their 2A rights. I zipped back out and got into the car and left, so no big deal.

Kentak
April 10, 2008, 11:36 PM
There's a good chance some businesses may allow legal CCW but have policy against open carry regardless of the legality.

In Ohio, WalMarts are not posted and therefore do not prohibit legal CCW. However, I have never seen open carry in W-M. In fact, I don't see open carry anywhere.

K

altitude_19
April 11, 2008, 08:52 AM
Ya know...I'm not sure where I stand on the OC all the time issue. On one hand, yes, it is nice to maintain the advantage of the element of surprise. On the other, maybe if it was actually the NORM to Open Carry (IE: most people in any given establishment did it) the BGs would feel perpetually outgunned and wouldn't even bother to try anything to begin with. One may doubt that we'll ever reach the point of majority OC, but there were probably doubts as to whether we would ever reach the point of most states allowing CC (to one extent or another). One things for sure, the argument that one should not OC because they might ban OC is FLAWED. How much sense does it make to worry about something being made illegal when you don't have the guts to do it in the first place? :confused: It may as well be illegal if you won't exercise your right to do it in the first place! It's like being afraid to write your congressman because it bothers him and he might try to pass legislation against petitioning elected officials! :what:

BB62
April 11, 2008, 12:08 PM
Regarding open carry... take away for a moment whether it's tactically a good or bad idea, and boil it down to its simplest form: If your state has a RIGHT to keep and bear arms (RKBA) in its constitution, would it be OK with you to have that stricken, leaving the law-abiding citizen with only one legal way to carry a firearm - via the PRIVILEGE of a concealed carry license?

coloradokevin
April 11, 2008, 01:02 PM
Perhaps it is time to change those cultural norms! I CC most of the time, but around the farm I OC, and on more than one occasion LEOs have stopped by to ask directions or something like that and most have not even commented about the pistol on my hip.

Wow! You must live in a different area than I work... We had to memorize every street in our area just to pass through FTO.

But, your comment made me think again of something that I just posted in another one of these open carry threads:

The difference in opinions on this subject may very likely fall on geographic lines. I've open carried on relative's farms, and in the backcountry myself. I conceal when carrying where I live and work (in the big city).

The rural versus urban cultural rift may explain a lot of this debate, at least in my opinion.

At least in my experiences, it is more culturally acceptable to open carry in farm country, the backcountry, and smaller rural towns and communities. In the big city it is more frowned upon (and in some cases regulated).

Anyway, just a thought!

WayneConrad
April 11, 2008, 01:13 PM
At least in my experiences, it is more culturally acceptable to open carry in farm country, the backcountry, and smaller rural towns and communities. In the big city it is more frowned upon (and in some cases regulated).
I agree. Geography plays a large part in this debate. First, geography segregates us by law (Arizona vs. Kentucky), then by population density (rural vs. city).

springmom
April 11, 2008, 01:27 PM
At least in my experiences, it is more culturally acceptable to open carry in farm country, the backcountry, and smaller rural towns and communities. In the big city it is more frowned upon (and in some cases regulated).

Which is somewhat ironic, given that actually "needing" the handgun (for anything other than snakes or rabid raccoons) is far more likely in the big city than in the rural areas.

We don't even lock our doors when we leave the ranch to go to town, although we do when we leave to come back to Houston. But here in the metro area, the doors are locked when we're home as well as when we leave. Of course, OC is not allowed except on one's own property in Texas either way, but that irony just struck me when I read your post.

Springmom

Mainsail
April 11, 2008, 01:36 PM
I agree. Geography plays a large part in this debate. First, geography segregates us by law (Arizona vs. Kentucky), then by population density (rural vs. city).

There are always exceptions to the rule though, like those of us who open carry in densely populated (and very liberal) urban cities like Seattle, Bellevue, and Tacoma. ;) The little grief we get comes not from those fabled ‘alarmed soccer moms’, but from a few police officers who prefer ‘out of sight – out of mind’ when it comes to firearms carry.

It always surprises me that gun owners would find open carry objectionable. They constantly cite the same tired and completely disproven theories about it damaging an image or the supposed tactical ‘surprise factor’. The majority of them come from states or locals where open carry is either tacitly or explicitly illegal, or they simply haven’t (or are afraid to) try it. Absolutely nothing we do as gun owners can set a better image for all of us than to demonstrate to the public, like those at Wal-Mart, that we’re friendly responsible citizens and the firearms on our belts don’t change anything about that.

Coyote Hunter
April 11, 2008, 01:46 PM
Sage of Seattle,

I humbly agree with your right to disagree. I am not young and in good shape. I am a retired PO with a messed up back and a bum ankle. I stated my opinion based on some real world experience facts..

1. As a PO, with a weapon in open carry, during a struggle someone will try to grab your gun. I can't count the times i've had to fight with one hand while clamping down my gun with the other. One can never assume some drugged out nut won't see an opportunity to target you for your gun. (I'm talking about unexpected assualts you didn't see coming.)

2. Yes, I agree with upholding your rights, I have the right to OC or CCW here in Kentucky (in certain locations, Louisville and Lexington are places you can't because of ordinances), I just shoose to CCW when I feel it nessessary.

3. I have been involved in a shooting resulting in the death of another. It's never ever what you think it will be. There is such a responsibility connected with carrying a gun, I just want the less experienced to see both sides. The gun that will most likely kill you is the one you didn't see.

But that is just my humble opinion, and we all have one :)

CH

JesseL
April 11, 2008, 01:48 PM
I agree. Geography plays a large part in this debate. First, geography segregates us by law (Arizona vs. Kentucky), then by population density (rural vs. city).

I think regional social mores play a big part too. Prescott isn't exactly rural anymore and Phoenix of course is very urban, but open carry still attracts much less negative attention in Arizona than it seems to in other states where OC is every bit as legal. Maybe it's the fact that we're less removed from our days as a frontier territory than other states?

I just love this quote from Jeff Cooper:
Strange at it may seem to our over-civilized friends throughout the world, it still warms our heart to see pistols worn openly in the check lines of supermarkets in Prescott. Sad to say most of the exemplars may properly be characterized as geezers, but then Prescott has always qualified as a geezer town - that is one reason why we moved here.

I've still got a month before I'm 30. Has open carry made me a geezer before my time?:neener:

moga
April 11, 2008, 01:56 PM
The guy was mis-informed, both on the actual law and on company policy. Get the store number and the manager's name and call their corporate office. Explain what happened and ask that they politely remind that manager of what the policy is.

+1

Us Georgians in metro Atlanta area have had our share of trouble in the area Home Depot and Lowe's while OC. Without fail, corporate has been very responsive to customers complaints of being accosted by ill informed management asking guests to leave b/c of OC.

One guy got a sweet deal on the item he originally went to Home Depot to buy, a refridgerator, after corporate put him in touch directly with the regional manager. He also was given a written apology and a promise that all local stores would receive a memorandum on the subject.

coloradokevin
April 11, 2008, 03:03 PM
I think regional social mores play a big part too. Prescott isn't exactly rural anymore and Phoenix of course is very urban, but open carry still attracts much less negative attention in Arizona than it seems to in other states where OC is every bit as legal. Maybe it's the fact that we're less removed from our days as a frontier territory than other states?

I suppose that plays a role too... Despite Colorado being a part of the "wild west", things have changed here.

We have had a huge influx of Californians in the past decade, and I don't think the change has been for the better... Cultural opinions seem to be changing in this state (hopefully we can hold on to CO and not become CA).

altitude_19
April 11, 2008, 03:07 PM
I hear ya Colorado. Thankfully, I make it a point to live in places that are so blatently inhosipitable, that they are, in and of themselves, yuppie repelant. :D

Ltlabner
April 11, 2008, 03:23 PM
If somebody wants to open carry (and it's legal to do so) by all means knock yourself out.

Just don't get your shorts in a wad when people question you. It shouldn't be a supprise that (1) people woln't know the law (2) will freak out over the weapon (3) will give them liscence to go all anti on you. Not saying we should give in to avoid a freakout, just that you shouldn't be shocked and insulted when it happens.

It's sorta like a woman who wears very prevocative clothing and then is insulted when a man hits on her.

On some level, and this is only my opinion, if someone open carrys just to be a defiant, "in your face" tool, then that does more harm than good IMO.

For me, CCW is the way to go. JMO.

JesseL
April 11, 2008, 03:47 PM
We have had a huge influx of Californians in the past decade, and I don't think the change has been for the better... Cultural opinions seem to be changing in this state (hopefully we can hold on to CO and not become CA).

We've got 'em here too, in spades. I suppose we're blessed not having so many ski resorts though.:D

Doin' my best to dig in my heels against the tide of Kalifornication.

teknoid
April 11, 2008, 03:47 PM
2. Yes, I agree with upholding your rights, I have the right to OC or CCW here in Kentucky (in certain locations, Louisville and Lexington are places you can't because of ordinances), I just shoose to CCW when I feel it nessessary.

Coyote Hunter, Hate to burst your bubble, but KY has a preemption law. Louisville and Lexington are legal for open carry, just like the rest of the state. You probably have a better chance of being hassled, though.

State Constitution: Bill of Rights, Section I

All men are, by nature, free and equal, and have certain inherent and inalienable rights, among which may be reckoned: First: The right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties. Seventh: The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the State, subject to the power of the General Assembly to enact laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed weapons.

Minimum Age to OC: 18

Preemption: Complete State Preemption of All Firearm Laws


65.870
Local firearms control ordinances prohibited.
No city, county or urban-county government may occupy any part of the field of
regulation of the transfer, ownership, possession, carrying or transportation of firearms,
ammunition, or components of firearms or combination thereof.
Effective: July 13, 1984
History: Created 1984 Ky. Acts ch. 42, sec. 1, effective July 13, 1984.

teknoid
April 11, 2008, 03:53 PM
I agree. Geography plays a large part in this debate. First, geography segregates us by law (Arizona vs. Kentucky), then by population density (rural vs. city).

The similarity in the laws of KY and AZ might surprise you. Now, if you had moved that line a little bit to the east, you'd be closer to right. :)

partyharty
April 11, 2008, 03:53 PM
While I agree that you may get questions and what not for oc'ing I do believe that this is simply because others are not aware of the law. By OC you are helping to educate them. One of the reasons it is scary to the sheep is simply that it is not "normal" for them to see a non-officer carrying. If this became "normal" (or at the very least more normal) then there would be a lot less problems associated with it. So more people carrying openly would actually help those who are unaware out. :neener:

Another thing is (without asking) how would someone not know that you were one of the various flavors of off duty LEO's. Around here I see people carrying (openly) from time to time and I simply assume they are LEO's of some sort. I simply do not ask and they don't offer to tell me otherwise.

Now as for the police, they should be aware of what they are sworn to enforce. In this case the officer was aware of the law and simply offered his opinion. As with all opinions, everyone has them, and you can either take it or leave it.

Now with that said I do not have the ability to open carry. With the various factors in my life at the moment (current law in my area, where I work, what I do, school, etc) I can't really CC much less OC.

But if I could I would.

Coolmojo
April 11, 2008, 06:44 PM
I worked at a walmart for a few years here in Missouri and we had a few very regular customers that open carried. One in particular was a fat Mexican with a very nice 1911.

One day his daughter was with him and I began to wondered if he had a enough firepower for the task.

TexasSkyhawk
April 11, 2008, 06:59 PM
I reminded the good officer he was not there to dole out advice, but to determine the veracity of the manager's claims (I was pushing my luck, but only because of frustration at being held up by a department store manager who thought he was a lawyer and a LEO on a power trip).

You're lucky.

I woulda hauled your butt in and sorted it all out while you were cooling your smart mouth in a holding cell.

And if I were the Wal-Mart manager, I would've filed criminal trespass charges against you and made it clear you were not to ever darken our doorstep again.

Congratulations.

This is EXACTLY the kind of attitude and community relations we need from "my rights come first" gun owners if we want an even TOUGHER road ahead. Thank you VERY much.

We covered "open carry" laws in our academy at Quantico. Guess what? There's a little catch in there that deals with "inciting panic or fear" if you carry openely. Translation: You may win the battle (open carry) but lose the war (inciting fear/panic/riot).

Think yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre.

Yeah, I'd love to be able to carry openly without having to have a badge right next to the holstered gun. But if I learned ANYTHING in over a decade of undercover work from coast to coast, it was that carrying concealed was almost ALWAYS to everyone's advantage.

Sheeeeeesh. . .

Jeff

Old Dog
April 11, 2008, 07:04 PM
And so another thread on open-carry demonstrates yet again just how divisive this issue is, even among the pro-RKBA community.

WayneConrad
April 11, 2008, 07:12 PM
We covered "open carry" laws in our academy at Quantico. Guess what? There's a little catch in there that deals with "inciting panic or fear" if you carry openely. Translation: You may win the battle (open carry) but lose the war (inciting fear/panic/riot).
Jeff, Is this a federal law, or a Wyoming state law? altitude_19 is in Wyoming.

You must have had a pretty hard day. Your tone and language are pretty harsh.

JesseL
April 11, 2008, 07:19 PM
And so another thread on open-carry demonstrates yet again just how divisive this issue is, even among the pro-RKBA community.

I'm danged if I can figure out why though. One side enjoys the option to carry in whatever manner they please. The other side enjoys telling everyone exactly how they should or shouldn't carry.

JesseL
April 11, 2008, 07:24 PM
I woulda hauled your ass in and sorted it all out while you were cooling your smart mouth in a holding cell.

Nice attitude from a peace officer. Haul someone in for having the nerve to do and say what's perfectly legal.

And if I were the Wal-Mart manager, I would've filed criminal trespass charges against you and made it clear you were not to ever darken our doorstep again.

I'd enjoy hearing what Wal-Mart corporate headquarters would have to say to you after that. Violating corporate policy. Lying to police (that's what it would take to have altitude_19 arrested in the circumstances described, as he was not asked to leave). Harassing customers. Bad juju.

This is EXACTLY the kind of attitude and community relations we need from "my rights come first" gun owners.

I agree. Or was that sarcasm? My rights do come first. That's what right means. Certainly ahead of what some badge heavy police officer thinks the law ought to be.

We covered "open carry" laws in our academy at Quantico. Guess what? There's a little catch in there that deals with "inciting panic or fear" if you carry openely.


Guess what? "Inciting panic or fear" doesn't generally apply to someone legally carrying a holstered firearm.

Yeah, I'd love to be able to carry openly without having to have a badge right next to the holstered gun. But if I learned ANYTHING in over a decade of undercover work from coast to coast, it was that carrying concealed was almost ALWAYS to everyone's advantage.

That's fine for you. I'm glad I have the right to make my own choice for me.

Sheeeeeesh. . .

Indeed.

TexasSkyhawk
April 11, 2008, 07:30 PM
Sigh.

Sorry, Wayne--and anyone/everyone else.

It HAS been a hard day, but reading posts where people display such blatant "me first" and to heck with what others think attitudes tends to chap me.

Let me try and calm down and take a few deep breaths. (I already edited the "a" word and changed it to the "b" word--my pastor DOES read this forum. I don't need any additional grief from him come this Sunday.)

In a perfect world, we could carry open. No questions asked. It's not a perfect world. In fact, even in the old "wild west days," more towns than not required "guns be checked at the door."

Why?

Because too many people got a beer or three or a bottle of whiskey and cards and could not exercise good judgement. Our "problems" originated way before we ever did."

I'm looking at this from a cop's viewpoint--or trying to. I was a federal cop; only thing I normally interacted with the locals on was drug-related matters. BUT, 3:00 a.m., Wal-Mart, guy comes strolling with open carry, skeleton crew, normally they're putting up the truck and are already tired and stressed.

Manager talks to Sergeant Open-Carry and mistakenly explains policy and/or law. Sergeant Open-Carry acts like the "A" word and gets police called. Police don't like calls to Wal-Mart at 3:00 a.m. because some yahoo strolled in with a gun AND is giving the store manager a hard time.

How does ANYTHING Sergeant Open-Carry did or how he represented himself help gun owners or our image?

I'll guarantee you that Wal-Mart has more clout with Wyoming and Cheyenne elected officials than Sergeant Open-Carry. IF the local Wal-Mart wanted to get whizzy about it, I would venture a bet that they could coordinate with OTHER Cheyenne area businesses and the Cheyenne CoC and get a local ordinance passed prohibiting open carry in their places of business.

The night manager at Wal-Mart could explain what happened to the Store Manager who might just petition Bentonville to allow them to pass or enact their OWN policy in response to Sergeant Open-Carry's gracious, professional, mature conduct.

In other words, Sergeant Open-Carry might've won the battle, but could very well add another stone to jepoardizing the war. In the military, his conduct is what we used to call "out of line." And if he is in the military, then I'm doubly disgusted at his behavior.

Jeff

John4me05
April 11, 2008, 07:32 PM
Here in VA you may carry openly.. Although the management has the right ask you to leave if they dont like it... If you dont comply you could have a charge coming to you...

moga
April 11, 2008, 07:35 PM
You're lucky.

I woulda hauled your ass in and sorted it all out while you were cooling your smart mouth in a holding cell.

And if I were the Wal-Mart manager, I would've filed criminal trespass charges against you and made it clear you were not to ever darken our doorstep again.

Congratulations.

This is EXACTLY the kind of attitude and community relations we need from "my rights come first" gun owners if we want an even TOUGHER road ahead. Thank you VERY much.

Haul him into the station for pointing out a fact of the matter that you don't personally care for? Take a person into custody for not even a minor infraction of the law? Why, because you can? :what: This is a lovely attitude to have from someone that is supposed to serve and protect. Your words fill me with pride to know that in America, no one is above or below the law. Thank you VERY much.

Congratulations. You sound like a bully with a badge.

The difference between open carry and yelling fire in a theater is open carry is NOT forbidden by law in WY. Inducing panic by exercising the second amendment while doing about one's lawful business? There is something truly farked up with that analysis. You would act to suppress a person's basic rights to placate some hoplophobe's hysteria? Are you sure your not an anti?

Attitude_19, rock on brother. I don't have a problem with anyone who partakes in the freedoms that the Constitution affords us, nothwithstanding Soccer Moms or Robocops. A freedom not exercised is a freedom that's lost forever.

BTW, I have never, nor do I intend, to open carry. Yet, it is perfectly legal in Georgia. Just my personal choice.

JesseL
April 11, 2008, 07:48 PM
Sorry, Wayne--and anyone/everyone else.

It HAS been a hard day, but reading posts where people display such blatant "me first" and to heck with what others think attitudes tends to chap me.


Understood.

In a perfect world, we could carry open. No questions asked. It's not a perfect world. In fact, even in the old "wild west days," more towns than not required "guns be checked at the door."

Why?

Because too many people got a beer or three or a bottle of whiskey and cards and could not exercise good judgement. Our "problems" originated way before we ever did."

Doesn't that apply equally to open carry or ccw?

I'll guarantee you that Wal-Mart has more clout with Wyoming and Cheyenne elected officials than Sergeant Open-Carry. IF the local Wal-Mart wanted to get whizzy about it, I would venture a bet that they could coordinate with OTHER Cheyenne area businesses and the Cheyenne CoC and get a local ordinance passed prohibiting open carry in their places of business.

Fortunately Wyoming has full state preemption for firearms laws, and Wal-Mart corporate has absolutely no problem with legal open carry.

I fully understand your concerns and objections, but I also think that this country needs more citizens that are willing to make a stink when their rights aren't respected. Civil rights are under constant siege and the surest way to lose them is to fail to defend them.

LAK Supply
April 11, 2008, 08:43 PM
You're lucky.

I woulda hauled your butt in and sorted it all out while you were cooling your smart mouth in a holding cell.

And if I were the Wal-Mart manager, I would've filed criminal trespass charges against you and made it clear you were not to ever darken our doorstep again.

Congratulations.

This is EXACTLY the kind of attitude and community relations we need from "my rights come first" gun owners if we want an even TOUGHER road ahead. Thank you VERY much.

We covered "open carry" laws in our academy at Quantico. Guess what? There's a little catch in there that deals with "inciting panic or fear" if you carry openely. Translation: You may win the battle (open carry) but lose the war (inciting fear/panic/riot).

Think yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre.

Yeah, I'd love to be able to carry openly without having to have a badge right next to the holstered gun. But if I learned ANYTHING in over a decade of undercover work from coast to coast, it was that carrying concealed was almost ALWAYS to everyone's advantage.

Sheeeeeesh. . .

Jeff


Wow.... "hauled his ass in" for legally exercising a right? That is the very attitude that creates the anti-LE sentiment that many in society hold. When did it become LE's job to push people into whatever the beliefs of the officer are? If you are really inclined to do this you are one of the problems facing our 2A rights in today's society. Your job is to enforce the law, not your personal beliefs on what people should and should not do.

As far as yelling "fire in a crowded theater"..... not even close, sorry. There is no "catch".... what there happens to be is a problem with LE strong-arming society with BS such as this. If this is the stance your department takes I hope an officer hauls the wrong person in and the department gets it's tail sued off. Enforcing opinion by pressing bogus charges to stop people from exercising their rights is underhanded and shady... a department that does this is no better than most of the criminals they deal with. Cops are no more than normal people with a little piece of metal on their chest.... "public servant" I believe the term is. The public pays the police to provide a public service... not to enforce personal opinion. :mad:

WayneConrad
April 11, 2008, 08:49 PM
Jeff's second post, which states his case in a pretty level-headed fashion, is the one we ought to be responding to. Please give him a pass on his first one, or this thread is going to go right off the rails. We all get our knickers in a knot from time to time. Jeff's not a bad nut for that one post. We don't have to agree with him. We just have to keep it civil, and not personal.

altitude_19
April 11, 2008, 08:56 PM
Sir,
I feel obligated to offer the gratitude of the many among us who see you as the perfect means by which to demonstrate conclusively the power trip that some people get from their badge, and why they never should have applied for it in the first place.
I woulda hauled your butt in and sorted it all out while you were cooling your smart mouth in a holding cell.
Thank God that we live in a country where a "smart mouth" CAN'T legally land you in a holding cell. And thank the Devil that men like you would still attempt it. Have you considered employment with the Peoples' Republic of China? I strongly suspect your mentality is closely in line with what they are recruiting for nowadays.
And if I were the Wal-Mart manager, I would've filed criminal trespass charges against you and made it clear you were not to ever darken our doorstep again.
I strongly believe you have a future in that billet. You seem to have the same fleeting grasp of the legal system. One cannot be charged with trespassing prior to being asked to leave. I was actually asked to STAY until the police arrived. I didn't have to, but was kind enough to do so anyway. And after the manager apologized for involving the police in the first place, he was quick to ask me to come back. The times I have, I've left the iron in the car (being the diplomat I am) despite my growing suspicions he was enforcing a fictitious policy. But most times, I try to take my business elsewhere.
This is EXACTLY the kind of attitude and community relations we need from "my rights come first" gun owners if we want an even TOUGHER road ahead.
I never said my rights come FIRST. But you seem to be advocating that I shouldn't even put them in the running.
Think yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre.
Having a voice is to carrying a pistol as yelling "fire" is to brandishing that firearm. You remember brandishing...it's in one of those dusty old Operating Instructions you put on the shelf when you decided you preferred SOPs written by your ego. So they really provide training SPECIFICALLY in Wyoming state law at Quantico? I'm duly impressed.
In the military, his conduct is what we used to call "out of line." And if he is in the military, then I'm doubly disgusted at his behavior.
In the military, we don't enforce what's not been disseminated as a standing order (you can't abide by what doesn't exist). My supervisor was apprised of the incident and would be quick to inform you that "disgusted" is a term not typically associated with one who has twice been decorated for composure during operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom.
Once more, Sir, thank you for the illustration. MANY SINCERE THANKS for demonstrating the mentality that one should consider MOST carefully before they decide whether they will "Serve and Protect" or "Bully and Intimidate."

LAK Supply
April 11, 2008, 08:57 PM
Didn't see that second one when I posted.......

I see where you're coming from, but it's still a society bullying people out of their rights because of it's own discomfort.

Wal-Mart would have won nothing in Cheyenne.... a fundamental right guaranteed by the state constitution trumps Wally World. They could post their store, and that would be their choice. It would also be our choice to complain constantly and shop somewhere else. Other outfits were providing goods in Wyoming long before Wal-Mart showed up.

Sigh.

Sorry, Wayne--and anyone/everyone else.

It HAS been a hard day, but reading posts where people display such blatant "me first" and to heck with what others think attitudes tends to chap me.

Let me try and calm down and take a few deep breaths. (I already edited the "a" word and changed it to the "b" word--my pastor DOES read this forum. I don't need any additional grief from him come this Sunday.)

In a perfect world, we could carry open. No questions asked. It's not a perfect world. In fact, even in the old "wild west days," more towns than not required "guns be checked at the door."

Why?

Because too many people got a beer or three or a bottle of whiskey and cards and could not exercise good judgement. Our "problems" originated way before we ever did."

I'm looking at this from a cop's viewpoint--or trying to. I was a federal cop; only thing I normally interacted with the locals on was drug-related matters. BUT, 3:00 a.m., Wal-Mart, guy comes strolling with open carry, skeleton crew, normally they're putting up the truck and are already tired and stressed.

Manager talks to Sergeant Open-Carry and mistakenly explains policy and/or law. Sergeant Open-Carry acts like the "A" word and gets police called. Police don't like calls to Wal-Mart at 3:00 a.m. because some yahoo strolled in with a gun AND is giving the store manager a hard time.

How does ANYTHING Sergeant Open-Carry did or how he represented himself help gun owners or our image?

I'll guarantee you that Wal-Mart has more clout with Wyoming and Cheyenne elected officials than Sergeant Open-Carry. IF the local Wal-Mart wanted to get whizzy about it, I would venture a bet that they could coordinate with OTHER Cheyenne area businesses and the Cheyenne CoC and get a local ordinance passed prohibiting open carry in their places of business.

The night manager at Wal-Mart could explain what happened to the Store Manager who might just petition Bentonville to allow them to pass or enact their OWN policy in response to Sergeant Open-Carry's gracious, professional, mature conduct.

In other words, Sergeant Open-Carry might've won the battle, but could very well add another stone to jepoardizing the war. In the military, his conduct is what we used to call "out of line." And if he is in the military, then I'm doubly disgusted at his behavior.

Jeff

Ltlabner
April 11, 2008, 09:25 PM
Thank God that we live in a country where a "smart mouth" CAN'T legally land you in a holding cell. And thank the Devil that men like you would still attempt it. Have you considered employment with the Peoples' Republic of China? I strongly suspect your mentality is closely in line with what they are recruiting for nowadays.

Honestly, with a post like that, it makes it harder to believe the OP was just caught up by a meanie Wall-Mart GM over-agressive LE. It also makes it easier to think he was causing a stink and escelating the situation while dressing his actions up in "defending the 2A".

Who knows what really happened.

I'll say it again. I'm all for open carry, but to do it to shove it down the throats of others "just because" is far worse for our cause.

altitude_19
April 11, 2008, 09:32 PM
I'm willing to concede the "bad day" card. We all get them. Let's call the first exchange a mulligan shall we? Onward!
In a perfect world, we could carry open. No questions asked.
In fact, I (occasionally) open carried for 5 years before this happened, no questions asked.
Because too many people got a beer or three or a bottle of whiskey and cards and could not exercise good judgement. Our "problems" originated way before we ever did.
Hence we can't carry in bars/liquor stores. Makes sense to me, but that doesn't mean I won't carry in a town that has a bar, just not in the bar.
Sergeant Open-Carry acts like the "A" word and gets police called.
Actually, I recall being quite civil when first engaged. He had his mind made up to call the cops long before I said a word. I just agreed when he informed me of the decision.
Police don't like calls to Wal-Mart at 3:00 a.m. because some yahoo strolled in with a gun AND is giving the store manager a hard time.
Agreed, but I didn't call 'em. I didn't waste their time. I made it a point to check the local ordinances and already KNEW I was legal to carry.
How does ANYTHING Sergeant Open-Carry did or how he represented himself help gun owners or our image?
The manager won't call the PD again, that's how. I don't expect thanks from you, Tex. But if anyone else finds themselves (incidentally) going OC through Cheyenne WM and doesn't have to have a chat with the 5-0 like I did, you know where to drop your thankyou card.
The night manager at Wal-Mart could explain what happened to the Store Manager who might just petition Bentonville to allow them to pass or enact their OWN policy in response to Sergeant Open-Carry's gracious, professional, mature conduct.
I just don't recall having so much as used profanity in the course of the ordeal. But, they might as well try to enact a ban. So many already seem resigned to surrender their rights, why shouldn't it by made official? They saw a professional, well-dressed, well-spoken, non-threatening man who demonstrated his willingness to responsibly exercise his right to carry a firearm while not taking guff from an LEO on a power trip. Maybe if it happens a few more times, they'll get used to the idea. Don't worry, I don't expect many out there to back me up on this one. Everybody already gets it that some are just happier to "Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you." "May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

Old Dog
April 11, 2008, 11:10 PM
Doesn't seem to me as though anyone is advocating "crouching down and licking the hand that feeds you." And the old saw "May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen." doesn't really apply here, either, just because some may choose not to open-carry where legal for whatever personal or tactical reasons -- doesn't mean they're not fighting the good fight for RKBA.

Near as I can tell, folks are simply stating that education is best accomplished without a chip on one's shoulder, by picking one's battles (timing is key, and so is time of day and place) and that forgoing an adversarial attitude is a better method of showing that one is, in fact, a professional, well-dressed, well-spoken, non-threatening man who demonstrated his willingness to responsibly exercise his right to carry a firearm [yep, cut out the bit about "taking guff off a LEO on a power trip" as we don't really know how he was reading your attitude upon initial contact; we have only your side of the encounter and for all we know, in your zeal to get your message across, you may have unintentionally escalated]

wristtwister
April 11, 2008, 11:21 PM
SECTION 16-23-20. Unlawful carrying of handgun; exceptions.

It is unlawful for anyone to carry about the person any handgun, whether concealed or not, except as follows, unless otherwise specifically prohibited by law:

(1) regular, salaried law enforcement officers, and reserve police officers of a state agency, municipality, or county of the State, uncompensated Governor’s constables, law enforcement officers of the federal government or other states when they are carrying out official duties while in this State, deputy enforcement officers of the Natural Resources Enforcement Division of the Department of Natural Resources, and retired commissioned law enforcement officers employed as private detectives or private investigators;

(2) members of the Armed Forces of the United States, the National Guard, organized reserves, or the State Militia when on duty;

(3) members, or their invited guests, of organizations authorized by law to purchase or receive firearms from the United States or this State or regularly enrolled members, or their invited guests, of clubs organized for the purpose of target shooting or collecting modern and antique firearms while these members, or their invited guests, are at or going to or from their places of target practice or their shows and exhibits;

(4) licensed hunters or fishermen who are engaged in hunting or fishing or going to or from their places of hunting or fishing while in a vehicle or on foot;

(5) a person regularly engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, repossessing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of this person, while possessing, using, or carrying a handgun in the usual or ordinary course of the business;

(6) guards authorized by law to possess handguns and engaged in protection of property of the United States or any agency of the United States;

(7) members of authorized military or civil organizations while parading or when going to and from the places of meeting of their respective organizations;

(8) a person in his home or upon his real property or a person who has the permission of the owner or the person in legal possession or the person in legal control of the home or real property;

(9) a person in a vehicle if the handgun is secured in a closed glove compartment, closed console, closed trunk, or in a closed container secured by an integral fastener and transported in the luggage compartment of the vehicle; however, this item is not violated if the glove compartment, console, or trunk is opened in the presence of a law enforcement officer for the sole purpose of retrieving a driver’s license, registration, or proof of insurance;

(10) a person carrying a handgun unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or fixed place of business or while in the process of changing or moving one’s residence or changing or moving one’s fixed place of business;

(11) a prison guard while engaged in his official duties;

(12) a person who is granted a permit under provision of law by the State Law Enforcement Division to carry a handgun about his person, under conditions set forth in the permit, and while transferring the handgun between the permittee’s person and a location specified in item (9);

(13) the owner or the person in legal possession or the person in legal control of a fixed place of business, while at the fixed place of business, and the employee of a fixed place of business, other than a business subject to Section 16-23-465, while at the place of business; however, the employee may exercise this privilege only after: (a) acquiring a permit pursuant to item (12), and (b) obtaining the permission of the owner or person in legal control or legal possession of the premises;

(14) a person engaged in firearms related activities while on the premises of a fixed place of business which conducts, as a regular course of its business, activities related to sale, repair, pawn, firearms training, or use of firearms, unless the premises is posted with a sign limiting possession of firearms to holders of permits issued pursuant to item (12);

(15) a person while transferring a handgun directly from or to a vehicle and a location specified in this section where one may legally possess the handgun.

(16) Any person on a motorcycle when the pistol is secured in a closed saddlebag or other similar closed accessory container attached, whether permanently or temporarily, to the motorcycle.


From the SC Code of Laws

So, yes, you can open carry while fishing.

WT

altitude_19
April 12, 2008, 01:24 AM
doesn't really apply here, either, just because some may choose not to open-carry where legal for whatever personal or tactical reasons -- doesn't mean they're not fighting the good fight for RKBA.
Agreed, to an extent. But when one elects to dispute a legal and constitutionally protected action (albeit one they elect not to perform themselves), it does tend to cast doubt on allegiance.
we don't really know how he was reading your attitude upon initial contact;
You are so right when you say an adversarial attitude can render one absolutely unreceptive to education (even discussion). Had I been given the opportunity to be adversarial at the onset of the conversation with the LEO in question, I might consider that I could have somehow prompted his combativeness. The truth is, I hadn't said a word, stood up, or so much as told my name when he had been in the room for less than 5 seconds and started in berating my actions before even asking for an explanation (and you'll recall that I had one).
timing is key, and so is time of day and place
Come now. You MUST know that I would be standing in front of the firing squad no matter the time of day the incident occurred. The fact that is was 0300 led me to believe I stood a lesser chance of running into any sheep, but the fact remains it's legal 24/7. Anti OCs will argue their point and use the fact that it was 0300 as a point of convenience. Had it been evening, they'd mention the high civilian presence. Were it 1000, they'd argue I'm spooking senior citizens. I won't say it's a non-factor, but I'd catch flak for carrying out this legal and (if you'll recall) carefully considered action regardless of time of day. Bottom line: You may or may not agree with it. But it was legal, and you're only self-imposing a ban by refraining from exercising your rights. The store was not posted as prohibiting firearms. The manager called the PD, not me. The manager had failed to research the local law and perhaps even his own corporate policies. It is not a LEOs job to impose his opinions. And this is a country where you're allowed to go against the grain, time and again.
Really, what's next? Will Wal-Mart start turning away customers with offensive T-shirts? Using language they don't agree with? Races and ethnicities they don't take a shine to? Business is all about compromise and concessions. Concede that I like to carry my iron and, on the odd ocassion, won't be able to cover it up, and you'll get all the business you like.
Some may argue that I'm forcing the 2A down others' throats. Would you argue I'm forcing Judaism if I wore a star of David? Catholicism if I toted a rosary? What if Department Stores all-of-a-sudden take a set against Christianity? Will these people dare to start picking and choosing what Amendments they welcome at their table?

TexasSkyhawk
April 12, 2008, 02:03 AM
deleted

WayneConrad
April 12, 2008, 02:28 AM
Jeff, I don't think you're the sort that would have gone off on altitude_19 without even letting him get in a hello. Had you responded, I've got a feeling the encounter would have gone better than it did.

altitude_19 has explained how the responding officer went straight into a lecture without so much as a how-do-you-do. How can it possibly be a result of a19's altitude that the officer did so, when a19 was unable to say a single word?

Is it possible that you're reading from a19's accounts of what happened only the parts that allow you to see him as an attitude problem, skipping the parts that explain where he stood his ground calmly and in an adult fashion? He's mentioned them a few times, and you seem not to be reading them.

Also: You can go out open carrying with something to prove, and still do it without an attitude. It's what I do every time I go outside. I won't back down, and I'll stand up for my rights. But you won't see me being smart-mouthed, or disrespectful to my local flatfoot, or breaking the law. You can stand up for your rights and be respectful to others at the same time.

As a law officer, it may be rare for you to encounter people who know how to do this. Maybe when you hear someone say, "I won't back down, I know my rights!" the first thing you are going to think of is the usual idiot you encounter on the streets who thinks that standing up for their rights means spitting on you and yelling "my rights are being violated!" at the top of their lungs.

I'm just speculating here, but is it possible that some of the language a19 uses to describe standing up for himself has given you the impression that he's that sort of idiot you usually encounter?

I've got the impression he's not that sort at all, but the sort who knows how to stand up for his rights while being respectful of others. And that's why I'm so puzzled that your first thought was that you would have to throw him in the pokey.

LAK Supply
April 12, 2008, 02:45 AM
it wouldn't take too many more "in your face" incidents such as the one being discussed before Wal-Mart, and other major retailers, might begin rethinking their position.


This comes right back down to intimidating people out of exercising their legal rights. "Don't do it or you might lose it?" Hardly a stance to be taken with an inherent right, don't you think?

TexasSkyhawk
April 12, 2008, 02:48 AM
Wayne,

You're right. Thank you for being a calm voice of sanity in my otherwise absolutely insane day and week.

Today is not a good day for me to try and think, let alone speak, rationally.

Altitude_19--my apologies. Too much gets lost in intrepretation on the internet, and just as what I was trying to communicate did not go out the way I truly intended, neither did I receive what YOU were trying to communicate in an appropriate fashion. And for that, I'm truly sorry.

On a side note, thank you for your service. You generation of vets is making my generation of vets damned proud. Thank you.

With best regards,

Jeff

meef
April 12, 2008, 02:49 AM
Open carry?

I mean, honestly - what's the point?

Unless you are a LEO, you are frankly being provocative with an "in your face" sort of thing - in my opinion.

It is provocative and I don't feel it promotes gun rights in a positive manner.

It reminds me of nothing more that the "We're here, we're queer, and we're in your face!" San Francisco attitude. Not a truly good public relations stance.

I carry all the time and everywhere with the exception of at work, and I carry concealed. The gun is on me and nobody gets upset. I like it that way.

Yes, open carry may be legal. But honestly, what good purpose does it actually serve?

WayneConrad
April 12, 2008, 03:12 AM
It reminds me of nothing more that the "We're here, we're queer, and we're in your face!" San Francisco attitude. Not a truly good public relations stance.
Not a good public relations stance? Gays are now, if not accepted, at least tolerated in most of society. It is no longer acceptable in most places to beat up gays, or not hire someone because they are gay, etc. Seems to me, that stance worked pretty well.

If it worked for them, why not for us?

Yes, open carry may be legal. But honestly, what good purpose does it actually serve?

Where do I start? How about the woman who did not know that she could carry a gun in Arizona, who my sweetheart left with the phone number of a gun dealer and trainer? Or the man who did not know he could carry openly, who I left with the name of our local gun rights organization? Or the security guards at the office building who did not know that non-law-officers were supposed to be able to check their firearms, but who know know the procedure for doing so, and are now happy to do it? Or the numerous business owners who see my friendly face and my fistful of cash on a weekly basis--I've had several thank me for carrying into their business. Not for the cash, although they don't mind that, but because small business owners get robbed so often. Or the elderly couple who felt safer learning that there are people around them carrying concealed (open carry led to them learning about concealed carry). I could go on...

Experience trumps speculation every time.

Travis Lee
April 12, 2008, 03:23 AM
Did I miss major points from the OP?

Did he engage in disorderly conduct? Menacing?
Was he shouting? Brandishing?
Was he making mean faces at people?
Giving pedantic lectures? Did he swear at the responding LEO? Speaking in tongues? What?!

He walked into WALMART, not in violation of any statute or posted sign, and the manager never even confronted him about making anyone uncomfortable, but he called police and ASKED him to stay.

What exactly is this? "Your gun frightens me and my customers, sir, but DO stick around so we can discuss the matter with the police." Somehow I don't get even the remotest interpretation of going armed, "to the alarm of the public."

And did I miss the part where he was arrested? I did read that the responding cop immediately began scolding, and berating him. While some OC opponents may think he was looking for a confrontation, perhaps I am naive in not thinking that LAWFUL, but unusual behavior by a citizen deserves rudeness from a police officer.

It may be a faux pas to wear white after Labor Day, but I am not about to put up with a tongue lashing about it by an LEO.

I'm not all that keen on OC as a regular thing: it gives away more tactical advantage than I personally like to do... but since open carry is lawful in a good many states, I applaud people who openly exercise their legal rights to do so.

If all of US treat OC like it is a dirty, shameful habit, in places where it is quite legal, how will we make any headway in people's preconceptions?

Maybe he was looking for an event... but I won't criticize him for acting in a lawful manner.

--Travis--

Sage of Seattle
April 12, 2008, 04:31 AM
I have been involved in a shooting resulting in the death of another. It's never ever what you think it will be. There is such a responsibility connected with carrying a gun, I just want the less experienced to see both sides. The gun that will most likely kill you is the one you didn't see.

Thank you for understanding and responding civilly, Coyote Hunter. I wasn't specifically calling you out; I did say most of you seem...


Just don't get your shorts in a wad when people question you. It shouldn't be a supprise that (1) people woln't know the law (2) will freak out over the weapon (3) will give them liscence to go all anti on you. Not saying we should give in to avoid a freakout, just that you shouldn't be shocked and insulted when it happens.

Where I think the surprise and insult comes in is where here on THR, some folks aren't very supportive of open carry; not nearly as much as those like me who are glad of anyone carrying, even openly -- especially openly.

The suprise and insult comes from police who aren't aware of the laws in their jurisdiction who find it necessary to berate someone for doing something perfectly legal.

Again, I ask: isn't the greatest victory in battle is the battle never fought? I have read the studies that have shown that bad guys are far more afraid of the armed citizen than of the police/government agents. I tend to believe these over the theory that bad guys are going to take you out first. I fully realize and admit that there are examples of police who are taken out in such a way.

We all may be citizens, but the major difference is that it isn't my job to go out and arrest people and incarcerate them.

At any rate, even before I read his apology, I still think that TexasSkyhawk deserves the benefit of the doubt and not judge him too harshly.

He strikes me as a man I would learn from.

BB62
April 12, 2008, 07:43 AM
Originally Posted by Coyote Hunter
...Yes, I agree with upholding your rights, I have the right to OC or CCW here in Kentucky (in certain locations, Louisville and Lexington are places you can't because of ordinances)...

You are incorrect.

Two things:

1) You CAN legally OC in Louisville and Lexington - KY has state preemption, so local gun laws are not enforceable.

2) You DO NOT have a right to CCW in KY - it's a PRIVILEGE granted to the subjects by the Commonwealth.

Check out www.opencarry.org

BB62
April 12, 2008, 08:00 AM
Originally Posted by meef
Yes, open carry may be legal. But honestly, what good purpose does it actually serve? (my emphasis)

meef,

I suggest you read my post #72 (copied below) and give us your feelings.

"Regarding open carry... take away for a moment whether it's tactically a good or bad idea, and boil it down to its simplest form: If your state has a RIGHT to keep and bear arms (RKBA) in its constitution, would it be OK with you to have that stricken, leaving the law-abiding citizen with only one legal way to carry a firearm - via the PRIVILEGE of a concealed carry license?"

moooose102
April 12, 2008, 08:30 AM
it sounds to me like an anti-gunner who got promoted to manager. i am sure the gun department is a source of constant irritation to him. and if he could, he would completely shut it down. i hate VERY few things in life, but poeple who want to take our guns just makes my BLOOD BOIL!

Hanzerik
April 12, 2008, 10:11 AM
Altitude if I may ask, what did the Manager look like? Or do you remember the name on his name tag/badge? I'm trying to think of who it might have been. I asked one of the assistant managers about carrying guns and he said CC was fine with him, but OC and he would ask you to leave or cover it up if you legally could.

mek42
April 12, 2008, 10:21 AM
Sounds like your civil rights were violated. Maybe you should ask the ACLU to help you sue WalMart?

Anyhow, I'm glad that there were no legal consequences for you.

meef
April 12, 2008, 01:33 PM
meef,

I suggest you read my post #72 (copied below) and give us your feelings.

"Regarding open carry... take away for a moment whether it's tactically a good or bad idea, and boil it down to its simplest form: If your state has a RIGHT to keep and bear arms (RKBA) in its constitution, would it be OK with you to have that stricken, leaving the law-abiding citizen with only one legal way to carry a firearm - via the PRIVILEGE of a concealed carry license?"BB62,

Nope, didn't say anything about having the RKBA stricken. And I don't personally live in the camp that considers concealed carry a privilege.

I feel that having to "apply and be approved" to carry concealed is wrong in every way. Alaska and Vermont have it right.

Where I live requires a permit, however, and I am not going to be the poster boy for challenging the system.

And with all respect to those whose opinion differs from mine, I just don't feel that open carry amongst the general public promotes the RKBA in a positive light.

That said, I do support the right of those who chose to do so - while not personally believing it to be the best course of action.

BB62
April 12, 2008, 04:52 PM
meef,

"Nope, didn't say anything about having the RKBA stricken."

And I never said you did.


You said (referring to OC):

"I mean, honestly - what's the point?" and "Yes, open carry may be legal. But honestly, what good purpose does it actually serve?"

I told you - to exercise a right. A right unexercised is a right lost. If you can only exercise your right or your "right" where it is not noticed, or it is inconsequential, it's not much of a right, is it?

Sure there are going to be people put off at the mere sight of a gun (or maybe even the word - gasp!), but there are going to be others who are educated that the right exists, or even that a clean-cut citizen like yourself might OC - because only redneck inbreds are supposed to have or like guns, right?

The antis want you to be defined by your gun, hidden or concealed. By OCing while conducting yourself in fine fashion one also helps put the lie to one of the many lies of the other side.

I could go on and on, but I will leave it at that. There are many here more eloquent than myself on the benefits of OCing.


"And I don't personally live in the camp that considers concealed carry a privilege."

Regardless of what you consider it to be, it is. It ought to be just as you describe, but it's not. So in the real world, in most places, it's a privilege. That little piece of paper, laminate, or plastic card is all that seperates you from criminal charges in a number of circumstances. The government doesn't license rights, now does it?

Megistopoda
April 12, 2008, 05:35 PM
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but Wyoming has full statewide preemption of gun regulations. Thus, if it is not prohibited by state law, you can do it.

In WY, there is no prohibition of open carry.

Thus, open carry in Walmart is perfectly legal. Not only does the manager need an education, but so does 1 of those 3 Cheyenne police officers.

altitude_19
April 12, 2008, 08:09 PM
TexasSkyhawk: Thanks for you rationale and perspective. Few and far between are the people in this world with the level-head and enough of a reign on their ego to reverse their position following an un-biased analysis of the facts...and it looks like you're one of them. Please excuse me if it seemed I was touting my medals or service. All that was meant was that I would be awfully upset if my entire career as a military man got framed down to this one incident (one "aw $h#!" takes away all your "attaboys").
I especially like hearing all the "I don't do it but more power to ya" posts. Had that been the general attitude on the night in question, I might not have gotten home feeling so frustrated.

dalepres
April 13, 2008, 04:46 AM
One of the most amazing things I see on RTKBA type of sites is the number of anti-gun pro-gunners.

All states and all municipalities should be open carry legal. If you live in one, exercise your rights. You're the last frontier.

dalepres
April 13, 2008, 04:52 AM
Another point, if you can't OC where legal because you're afraid of offending someone then it is already illegal - effectively.

dalepres
April 13, 2008, 11:05 AM
You're lucky.

I woulda hauled your butt in and sorted it all out while you were cooling your smart mouth in a holding cell.

This is why we fear the police rather than respect and trust the police.

It is a good example of why the founding fathers provided the entire Bill of Rights - to protect us from tyranny.

altitude_19
April 13, 2008, 11:10 AM
This is why we fear the police rather than respect and trust the police.

It is a good example of why the founding fathers provided the entire Bill of Rights - to protect us from tyranny.
I didn't like reading it much myself, but the running practice is to give Tex a pass on this one. Guess he had a rough day and hadn't quite grasped the whole story when he posted it. We all know how bad a policy it can be to try to voice one's opinions while angry. :D

Ditto_95
April 13, 2008, 11:13 AM
First of all I think if you do open carry you are doing a great service for the RTKBA.

It seems like most of the stories I read about confrontations between gun owners and businesses are at Walmart.
I wonder why that is?

My community LEO's support carry concealed. I am not sure how they feel about open carry.
I guess I will have to ask.

dalepres
April 13, 2008, 11:18 AM
I didn't like reading it much myself, but the running practice is to give Tex a pass on this one. Guess he had a rough day and hadn't quite grasped the whole story when he posted it. We all know how bad a policy it can be to try to voice one's opinions while angry.

I hope I don't run into him in a law enforcement situation when he's had a rough day or hasn't grasped the whole situation.

WayneConrad
April 13, 2008, 11:19 AM
It seems like most of the stories I read about confrontations between gun owners and businesses are at Walmart.
I wonder why that is?

Sheer volume. Many people--gun owners and non-gun-owners alike--shop at Wal-Mart. There are a great many non-events of open-carriers at Wal-Mart stores, too.

Ben Shepherd
April 13, 2008, 11:20 AM
I'm a little late to this party but I did read through the whole thread before posting.

I've been on THR since right after TFL days, hang out with a few of our moderators on a regular basis, and know a lot more of our members in person than I can shake a stick at. That being said--

I've spent a fair amount of time over at www.opencarry.org lately. I've come to call several of thier members friends, friends as close as some I have here.

I even went to an open carry meet/dinner the other night here in Utah(they finnally scheduled one I could attend). There was a reporter from the LA times there, specifically to do a story on open carry. He spent the entire evening asking different attendees questions and taking notes. To a man, all the folks he interviewed were intelligent and well spoken, even though some were in sport coats, some in boots and jeans, and some in t-shirts and levis. He's going to be hard pressed to turn any article he writes into an anti piece, that's for sure. I don't think he will, he seemed genuinely interested in the WHY? of open carry. Let me tell you all something:

From the folks I know personally from BOTH BOARDS some of us are being down right counterproductive in the big picture of things.

To our original poster: Kudos for sticking to your guns.

Those of you that dislike the idea of open carry because it "might" cause others to be a little more anti? This attitude is what is costing us death by a thousand cuts. It took me 10 years to convince my dad that EBRs are just as useful as his model 70 30-06. But now he understands.

The folks that I've met that do open carry do so in fine form. NOT ONE has fit the hillbilly redneck label that we all seem to fear. All have been cleanly dressed, well groomed, carrying with the correct gear(not just shoved in the pants), well versed in applicable law, and more than willing to take the occasional snide comment about thier choice.

Know what? I'm glad that there are people out there that WILL stand up for thier rights, and in so doing, my rights, and your rights, as well.

Hanzerik
April 13, 2008, 12:00 PM
Hey Ben, any idea on when that article is going to print?

CZ223
April 13, 2008, 12:26 PM
Unfortunately I also live in a state where liberals are allowed.:) Carrying openly will, more than likely, result in a conversation with a cop. As Tex said, the caveat here is "creating a disturbance", or something to that affect. I know, I have been through it. What bugs the bejeebers out of me is, when the police are called about a man with a gun, the caller isn't told that open carry is perfectly legal in this state. If that were the policy, I believe that more of us would be inclined to carry openly.

meef
April 13, 2008, 01:13 PM
Random thought....

When open carrying, keep a copy of the permitting stature on your person.

Might save a lot of hassle and prevent the "Can too! Can't neither!" stuff that seems to result when it becomes an issue.

Hard for Officer Friendly to refute when you hand him the paper citing chapter and verse of the laws he is sworn to uphold all clearly spelled out.

WayneConrad
April 13, 2008, 01:43 PM
meef, There usually isn't a permitting statute. Government doesn't work that way, or isn't supposed to.

The basis of American law is, "All that isn't prohibited, is allowed.

meef
April 13, 2008, 02:50 PM
meef, There usually isn't a permitting statute. Government doesn't work that way, or isn't supposed to.

The basis of American law is, "All that isn't prohibited, is allowed.Good point. While I don't have the time to do further research as the wife said the yardwork WILL get done today, I felt there must be some sort of reference to open carry in the various state rules and regulations.

When I get some time, I'm going to look up the Oregon variety and see what's there, out of curiosity now.

I do know OC is allowed* here, I just don't know how/if it's described.


*Irritating to have to describe it as "allowed". What that basically means is the authorities probably won't toss you in the clink if you exercise your right.

:cool:

Sage of Seattle
April 13, 2008, 05:11 PM
I suppose in this case, one could carry the laws that prohibit carry, so one could point out were they were/what they were doing was not on that list of, you know... actual crimes...

LKB3rd
April 14, 2008, 07:18 AM
Thanks to WayneConrad and Deanimator for the backup...let's try to keep it tasteful here, shall we? Now on to the mitigating circumstances I should have mentioned before: When I pulled up (around 0300) a roudy looking bunch in the parking lot noticed I was armed. I decided (and think many of you will agree) that ditching the weapon in the truck, a 76 Chevy with no alarm, would have been ill-advised as I would have likely come out to find it gone and a window busted. That's when I made the call to open carry for a couple reasons: 1.)It was late and populace in the store would be minimal 2.)I was well dressed and posed no menacing image 3.)I only needed a couple boxes of ammo and would just be in the store a few minutes. 4.)Leaving the weapon in the lot would have posed a deplorable hazard to public safety, given its present occupants. I'm willing to go to certain lengths for the sake of another's skitishness, but not at the risk of a stolen weapon that would likely be used in a crime later. I will do my best not to leave anything out, if you will all be so kind as to refrain from assumptions when I momentarily fail to do so.
It isn't illegal (assuming your local laws allow it), it isn't against Wal-Mart policy, and in my opinion the reason "I decided to do it" is good enough.
You might have stirred up some people, but you would have been within your rights to tell the store manager it was not illegal, but if he, as a representative of the store was not going to allow it, then that was fine, and leave. He can't detain you for any reason unless he puts you under citizens arrest. If you had the feeling he was going to call the police, a call yourself to explain what had happened, and that you thought he might be calling might not be a bad idea.

Ltlabner
April 14, 2008, 08:01 AM
Another point, if you can't OC where legal because you're afraid of offending someone then it is already illegal - effectively.

It's not about being afraid of offending someone. It's about picking and choosing your battles wisely.

If you OC into a crowded store on Saturday AM when everybody is grociery shopping don't be supprised when someone complains. And guess what, it's likely to be an anti, a soccer-mom or a lib that wants to protect the world. You really think they will be swayed by you OC'ing in a peacefull manner? I've met anti's who are being threatened by stalkers who have already made attempts to kill them who still can't bring themselves to touch a gun, let alone use it. Your walk through Wal-Mart is not going to do anything to sway them, and will only give them ammo to freak out and say "it's so dangerous to have a gun around all those children....". Yea, big progress there. :rolleyes:

OC in the the same store later in the day, or the early morning. You are far less likely to stir the crowd into a frenzy and if you run into someone currious about guns, they might actually stand and talk to you for a bit. THEN you have an opportunity to educate them.

OC at a crowded street fair...someone will go bonkers. OC in the small shops on the same street during normal working hours...you'll likely be engaged in a less freaked out manner and be able to discuss the situation amicably. Again, THAT'S when you actually have a chance to educate them.

You (generalized you) can say I'm an anti-gun pro-gunner if you wish for not demanding to do whatever I want, when I want and how I want. But if you really stop and think about it, there's a HUGE difference between picking your battles wisely and being anti-gun.

I don't begrudge anyone for OC. I just think that if you are REALLY wanting to educate people via OC there are ways that are more productive than just strapping on and diving in.

And keep in mind, I live in a state where OC is not common, and the laws are murky, at best.

Coyote Hunter
April 14, 2008, 04:47 PM
You stated "You are incorrect.

Two things:

1) You CAN legally OC in Louisville and Lexington - KY has state preemption, so local gun laws are not enforceable.

2) You DO NOT have a right to CCW in KY - it's a PRIVILEGE granted to the subjects by the Commonwealth."

RESPONSE:

1) Unless the law has changed RECENTLY, I worked 5th district in Louisville, and a city ordinance CAN and often does supercede state law as an adidition to it if the state law allows, which it does in it's wording.

For instance, you may shoot your gun all day if you live on a farm, no law AGAINST it....but the city has an ordinance forbiding "discharging a firearm in the city limits".

You can OC on your property or in public where there is no law or ordinance against it...

Louisville and Lexington, before CCW, had city ordinances in place forbidding the "florishing" of a firearm. Now, if that law was not in effect, then a few folks paid a fine for walking around with a handgun stuck in their pants. I can't see changing a florishing law so one can carry OC now that we have CCW laws.

2) Speaking as a CCW license holder, I do indeed have the "PRIVILEGE" to carry CCW or not, terminology was corrected! But that priviledge was enacted and supported by a state law.

WayneConrad
April 14, 2008, 04:52 PM
meef, I want to correct myself on something I said a ways back. There usually is a permitting statute, but I forgot about it. My state constitution has a RKBA clause. I'll bet most do.

However, people who use constitutions to back up their actions are looked upon poorly. It should not be so, but that's the state of affairs these days.

JesseL
April 14, 2008, 05:31 PM
1) Unless the law has changed RECENTLY, I worked 5th district in Louisville, and a city ordinance CAN and often does supercede state law as an adidition to it if the state law allows, which it does in it's wording.


No city, county or urban-county government may occupy any part of the field of regulation of the transfer, ownership, possession, carrying or transportation of firearms, ammunition, or components of firearms or combination thereof.

In addition "flourishing" or "brandishing" rarely applies to a firearm kept in a holster.

BB62
April 15, 2008, 01:38 PM
Coyote Hunter,

I said: "1) You CAN legally OC in Louisville and Lexington - KY has state preemption, so local gun laws are not enforceable."

You said "1) Unless the law has changed RECENTLY, I worked 5th district in Louisville, and a city ordinance CAN and often does supercede state law as an adidition to it if the state law allows, which it does in it's wording."

*I* was referring to local OC laws specifically (which I thought was evident because this WHOLE THREAD is about OC), but preemption applies to plenty of things - registration, "assault" weapons bans, etc. City discharge laws are well known (at least among non-sworn citizens) to be unaffected by state preemption laws, except when specifically preempted.

If you call 1984 recently, then I guess the law has changed "recently".

65.870 Local firearms control ordinances prohibited.
No city, county or urban-county government may occupy any part of the field of regulation of the transfer, ownership, possession, carrying or transportation of firearms, ammunition, or components of firearms or combination thereof.
Effective: July 13, 1984

As to some who may have been convicted of "flourishing" for merely OCing- I can't speak to those circumstances because I don't know the details. I'm sure we can speculate on many reasons for convictions - including uninformed defense attorneys, or someone who was actually "flourishing" a firearm.


As to your contention that "2) Speaking as a CCW license holder, I do indeed have the "PRIVILEGE" to carry CCW or not, terminology was corrected! But that priviledge was enacted and supported by a state law."

Yet in post # 77 you said "I have the right to OC or CCW here in Kentucky..." (my emphasis).

You did not state that you had a privilege to CCW, you said you had a RIGHT. I said, correctly, that you do not have the RIGHT - you merely have a privilege.

SuperMidget
April 15, 2008, 01:58 PM
Open carry?

I mean, honestly - what's the point?

Unless you are a LEO, you are frankly being provocative with an "in your face" sort of thing - in my opinion.

It is provocative and I don't feel it promotes gun rights in a positive manner.

It reminds me of nothing more that the "We're here, we're queer, and we're in your face!" San Francisco attitude. Not a truly good public relations stance.

I carry all the time and everywhere with the exception of at work, and I carry concealed. The gun is on me and nobody gets upset. I like it that way.

Yes, open carry may be legal. But honestly, what good purpose does it actually serve?

Well, speaking from the experience of just moving to Wyoming there is a rather large point.

By Wyoming law, I can't apply for a CC permit for six months from the date I moved here. My South Dakota permit is invalidated the day I get a Wyoming address. So for the six to eight months I can't conceal, I'm supposed to sit on my hands when thee is a viable and legal alternative because it might scare the Coloradans?

I realize this is largely academic due to other circumstances, but it's a prime example of why OC is a good and necessary thing.

Jamie C.
April 15, 2008, 05:19 PM
Open carry?

I mean, honestly - what's the point?

Well, for one, it means I don't have to dress around the damned gun. I can have it there without it jabbing me in the ribs or causing any real discomfort.

And also, I can carry a much larger gun than I would generally be able to conceal. :evil:

BTW.... I'm rather fond of what I call "partial open carry". I simply throw on a belt holster, then my usual hunting/photographer's vest ( yes, I like having a bunch of pockets, and actually wear the things on a regular basis, even when I don't need to conceal a weapon). About half the holster sticks out the bottom, but nobody seems to pay that part much attention.


J.C.

langenc
April 16, 2008, 08:45 PM
"Wal-Mart has no problem with legal concealed carry.

Wal-Mart does, for obvious reasons, HAVE a problem with open carry.

It upsets some other customers and that hurts business, so (if they spot you carrying openly) they will politely ask you to cover it up or leave. Your choice. In most states, they can ask you to leave their store for any reason at all ("no shirt, no shoes, no service). Some states, like Texas, require a special sign, etc."

I guess Im oblivious--what are the obvious reasons??

In Wyoming?? maybe a problem in DC, NY or Philly but in WY???? YUK!

Mainsail
April 16, 2008, 09:57 PM
Wal-Mart does, for obvious reasons, HAVE a problem with open carry.

No, actually they don’t. I, and several others, carry openly in Wal-mart, K-mart- and Target often.

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