Maryland - Fighting for due process


April 11, 2008, 06:38 AM
(Cross posted a couple of places trying to round up as many MD people as possible)

You may or may not be aware, but the one real success we were having this session was the unanimous passage of HB1060, the so-called castle doctrine bill. That's right...even in MD, we had a UNANIMOUS vote on a self-defense bill that would have allowed you to have protection in the event that you injured or killed and intruder in your home.

Currently, you have no guarantee of protection from civil suit. Imagine that....a crack addict busts down your door one night and you deliver some 12 gauge love. You won't be criminally prosecuted, but you are wide open to a law suit from his family.

"He was a good boy, just mixed up"
"He was trying to kick drugs"
"He never beat on his kids like some people"
"This gun nut was looking for someone to kill"

You've seen the stories in the last few weeks.

So....the bill unanimously passes the house and crosses over to the Senate and never sees the light of day.

How is that?

Senator Brian Frosh, the judicial committee chair, took the bill and stuffed it "in the drawer" meaning that he unilaterally decided that the bill would never be heard in committee much less be sent to the full senate for consideration.

This gives Frosh more power to veto than even the governor, because a gubernatorial veto can be over ridden by 2/3 of the general assembly.

YOUR delegate voted in favor of this bill, and most likely your senator would have too. This means that we got a self-defense bill past the delegation from PG, MoCo, HoCo and Baltimore City.

Did I mention that he did the same thing in 2004 and 2006?

How can one man over ride the will of the entire general assembly?

It's time for Frosh to go.

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April 11, 2008, 06:40 AM
The End of Democracy? Asks Maryland Shall Issue, Inc.

ANNAPOLIS, Md., April 9, 2008 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The followingis a statement by Henry Heymering, President of Maryland Shall Issue, Inc.:

HB-1060 is a "Castle Doctrine" type bill. It would have providedimmunity from civil suits brought by someone who was injured or killed after illegally entering your home and then committing or attempting to commit an additional crime.

Your Maryland Delegates, unanimously (136 - 0), voted for HB-1060.However, Senator Frosh single-handedly blocked the bill by not allowing a vote in committee -- a "desk drawer veto." Is this democracy? If your Delegates are representing your concerns, and it appears they are, then Senator Frosh is not. One has to wonder if this is because Senator Frosh'slaw firm specializes in personal injury claims, or simply that he chooses to push his personal views on self-defense in direct opposition to
the vast majority of Marylanders.

Henry Heymering, President of Maryland Shall Issue, notes this is not the first time Senator Frosh has abused his power as Chair of the Senate Judicial Proceedings Committee to impose his personal interests over the wishes of the representatives of the entire state. In fact this is the third time that Senator Frosh has blocked this very same bill which has now passed the House floor unanimously on three separate occasions -- 2004 (HB-1463), 2005 (HB-646) and now 2008.

What kind of a government is it that puts more veto power in the hands of a committee chair than in the hands of the governor? What kind of a legislator uses this power for his personal interests rather than the people he is supposed to represent?

SOURCE Maryland Shall Issue, Inc.

April 11, 2008, 06:41 AM
Links to resources for contacting legislators and newspapers (

April 11, 2008, 06:45 AM
Senator Frosh's contact information:

Democrat, District 16, Montgomery County
Miller Senate Office Building, 2 East Wing
11 Bladen St., Annapolis, MD 21401
(410) 841-3124, (301) 858-3124
1-800-492-7122, ext. 3124 (toll free)
fax: (410) 841-3102, (301) 858-3102

7315 Wisconsin Ave., Suite 800W
Bethesda, MD 20814 - 3412
(301) 652-2888

April 11, 2008, 08:43 AM
I feel your pain. I read a bit on Frosh the other day and it makes me sick to think that ANY one person in the government can make decisions like that without any counterbalances to make sure he does things beyond his own personal intrests. But alas, we just have to keep e-mailing, calling, and being rejected by our lawmakers until something epic happens.

Maryland is a beautiful state, but when it comes to the politicians it gets real ugly real fast. :fire:

Phil Lee
April 11, 2008, 09:34 AM
Norton quotes from the Maryland Shall Issue press release "The End of Democracy? Asks Maryland Shall Issue, Inc." Sen. Frosh is a closet communist (IMO) and his action is wrong headed, but the question about democracy is wrong-headed, too.

First, Maryland has a democratic procedure for forcing action by a committee chairman on a bill. The Maryland senate rule 43 allows the full senate to discharge the bill from committee when a committee chairman refuses to allow action. It was this rule that Maryland's lunatic-left used to discharge the anti-gun SB 211: GUN SAFETY ACT OF 2000 when it was being blocked by then chairman Walter Baker. You can read about these actions in more detail at:

Sometimes these rules work in our favor and sometimes not. The problem with this bill is that supporters haven't yet built enough support in the Maryland Senate to force action through rule 43 -- a simple majority voting in the senate is required. It appears that there is more to this than meets the eye given the huge support shown in the House.

Second, it is a mistake to consider rules by the legislature to be anti-democratic. Rules are necessary for any organization and the rules are adopted democratically by member votes (just a few years back the filibuster rule for the Maryland senate was changed to require a 60% vote rather than 2/3 to maintain a filibuster). You might not like the rules in how they function, but it is wrong to claim they aren't democratic just because they give discretionary power to a person.

Third, Frosh has gained his position and power by surviving elections and playing the political game. I don't like that he has power, but we all have to learn to live with it. Either we run him out of office or we run around him or we gain his cooperation. If we can't run him out of office or gain his cooperation, we can certainly increase the pain he feels through other senators we can influence. Personally, I think attempts to work directly on him are a waste of time. Frosh may be a closet communist, but he is elected from a district full of raging reds. If they see the Maryland Shall Issue press release, they'll think Frosh is a good guy for what he is doing.

Fourth, democracy is a much overrated form of government. Our form of government, a republican form, is better. It is a pity that we don't have more appreciation for how that form of government operates. Those of us who do won't see the virtues in the Maryland Shall Issue press release title question.

April 11, 2008, 09:47 AM

I would respectfully disagree that it is a waste of time to bring attention to Frosh's stonewalling of this bill. The unanimous vote of the House shows that even the delegates of his pinko district agree that citizens should have the right to immunity from civil persecution since they already have the protection from criminal prosecution in the instances of legal self-defense.

Putting him on the spot with the other senators and, particularly the senate leadership, is exactly what we are advocating.

Gun owners in MD have been playing nice for too long and just being grateful that nothing "bad" gets passed. It's time to hold these ideological nuts accountable for their actions.

Phil Lee
April 11, 2008, 10:20 AM

Then I must point out that the MSI press release is poorly worded and doesn't accomplish your purpose. The title issue should be that Frosh isn't representing the people of his district on this question (and Maryland as a whole). However, I'll bet that Frosh represents his district. Remember, we had an election in 2006 and Frosh received ( a huge majority (75.7%) in the 2006 election. This is the same county that replaced ( flaming grabber of long standing Ruben with new anti-gun fanatic Raskin and defeated the two old grabbers Mandel & Petzold with the more fanatical grabber Lenett. Both of these elections were decided by substantial majorities.

You might make some headway in other parts of Maryland with voters pointing out that Frosh doesn't represent them or their values and is trying to keep a law that affects their safety, but you need them to ask their senators why they tolerate this action given the alternatives (rule 43) available.

BTW, you should come and live in Montgomery County (Massachusetts south) for a while and learn to appreciate what we have here. We have the most intelligent ignorant people on the face of the earth. They are the smartest morons you can find anywhere. A more anti-prejudice bunch of bigots do not exist in any other place in the country. Frosh represents his constituents to a T.

So, even if Maryland Shall Issue modified its press release -- you can't expect a change in Montgomery County.

April 11, 2008, 11:45 AM

I get spoiled...I live in AA County :D

Phraseology of the press release aside, I think the effort to highlight Frosh's application of his personal ideology is a worthwhile one. There is also the question of his law firm being one that practices personal injury law, which has a financial interest in seeing this bill defeated.

Mark Wilson
April 11, 2008, 12:28 PM

You know that one of the reasons Montgomery County has a majority of flaming anti-RKBA urban liberal voters - with so few conservatives on firearms issues - is that the conservatives have been fleeing the County for friendlier counties and states - typically the latter. Even Dem liberals who are strongly pro-RKBA look forward to fleeing Montgomery County (and usually the entire State of Maryland).

Montgomery County has also been inundated with immigrants - including illegals who are helped by flaming urban liberals to become legals through sham marriages, real marriages, etc. They are walked through the process from arrival to the voting booth. They tend to vote the way their benefactors vote. Then they repeat the process with their relatives who become new immigrants. Think that number has been 10,000 a year in Montgomery County and 100,000 a year in Maryland -- but I've not checked that # lately.

Anyway, the net result is that we get left-wingers like Frosh put into office where they are fairly immune to being kicked out by the voters.

Agree with you that the intelligent ignorant are likely to remain ignorant - joined of course by the ignorant ignorant.

Shouldn't one try to help put some facts in front of them?

Shouldn't Mike Miller and Brian Frosh know that some of us know what they are doing - even if they don't care if we know (mainly because the urban liberal press and TV and radio media protect them rather than acting as the Free Press envisioned by our founding fathers)?

It may appear like sending wet stuff into the wind which returns it all over us, but it is a pro-RKBA effort by a very pro-RKBA activist group - a group which has been growing and causing some politicians some gas pains. Hope it continues to grow and cause the anti-RKBA legislators even greater gas pains.

My philosophy has always been to try to help other pro-RKBA groups whenever possible, but not to get highly critical about what they do if I can't help on each, all, or any of the fronts they are marching off on.

So what new specific "Lessons Learned" would you offer to MSI for their future pro-RKBA projects and endeavors besides the old educate the voters and turn or replace the existing anti-RKBA legislators - which is the same stuff the NRA reps used to tell us at MCDL many years ago at Annapolis hearings, but then they'd never jump in and help do much in that regard, did they? IMO MSI is trying to grow membership with good works and also educate the ignorant - something I think they are indeed doing.

(Not sure I'll be able to keep up with all these different pro-RKBA list posts)

April 11, 2008, 12:35 PM
God, I hate that guy. I remember writing to him (and the others) during the AWB hearing timeperiod, and his reply was ridiculous.

Thanks for posting, Norton. Guess it's time to start writing more letters!

I wonder what one has to do to get a letter to the editor printed in a college newspaper?:evil:

Phil Lee
April 11, 2008, 02:47 PM

I think the only practical way to squeeze Frosh is through Democrat senators in districts not so full of closet communists.

Complain to them that they should get Frosh to go along or that they should support a rule 43 discharge petition to get your bill passed. Get their gunny constituents to write them demanding them to do so. Ask the Delegates to talk to the Senator in their district to explain why supporting a bill is a good idea.

You need to get Republican senators to go along too and you should work them in the same way even if they are likely supporters.

Those senators that you can't get to go along, you should consider targeting for defeat in the next election. But senators like Frosh in many districts like his in Montgomery, PG, and Baltimore City should be the lowest priority for the application of effort.

April 25, 2008, 09:23 PM
I live in Montgomery County as well and I hate it so much!

Ric in Richmond
April 26, 2008, 07:08 AM
I grew up in and used to live in Severna Park, MD.

But THANK GOD I live in Virginia. MD is a mess. Good luck!!!

Frosh is pathetic....

April 26, 2008, 07:15 AM
His hatred of us is palpable. These are from last year's hearing on the CCW bills:

Good to know that you all are both wrong and nuts according to the senator.

If you MoCo people are sick of this man, you need to start working now and organizing against him. The rest of us in the state can help you, but without the gun owners in his home district getting involved, he's a lost cause.

Phil Lee
April 26, 2008, 01:10 PM

We should talk sometimes.

Activists that live in and around Montgomery County have been among the most active in the state for many years.

Some of them have even tried running against Frosh (e.g., Gus Alzona). Experience shows that Frosh can't be beat until he violates Louisiana Gov. Edwin Edwards' sex with a dead girl or live boy rule.

Experience has shown that many residents of Montgomery and PG Counties and Baltimore City are fanatical in opposition to guns (fanatical in the sense that no reason may penetrate their brains).

Every so often, the rest of Maryland arouses itself long enough to blame all of Maryland's problems on the lunatic politicians these jurisdictions send to the legislature. In this, the rest of Maryland ignores its own problems. We couldn't find a single person from Western Maryland that wanted to help get rid of Cas Taylor among the gun crowd. The gunnies of Maryland were represented by Montgomery and Howard County residents and they were the ones carrying the fight in Cas' district near Cumberland.

Until Frosh exposes a flaw that will outrage a bunch of raving-reds living in his district, he won't be vulnerable to any expenditure of energy -- even if all of Maryland RKBA activists would work for his defeat.

Even the efforts of one activist spent on an attempt to defeat Frosh is a waste of resources better used where we can make the marginal difference to elect pro-gun representatives.

April 26, 2008, 03:38 PM

I know that you and other have been leading this fight for a long time. However, too many gun owners in MD are content to sit there and take it like a wife exposed to an abusive husband for years. They just figure that there's nothing they can do.

I look at our friend in VA and how they descend en masse on localities, politicians and businesses that exhibit anti-gun tendencies and marvel at the pressure that they bring to bear on them.

When we MD'ers in other counties make calls and write to the gun grabbers in MoCo and PG, we are constantly told "get back to me when you get some residents of my county to get involved."

As I've said before, I'm under no delusions that Frosh can be defeated in an outright fight, however that doesn't mean that we shouldn't launching such attacks as we can when he makes outrageous statements such as those in that video clip.

Phil Lee
April 26, 2008, 09:49 PM
Well, I said all that I can on this topic except that I wish you luck Norton.

April 27, 2008, 09:27 AM
It is called "ONE MAN RULE" and they love it.

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