Miami Gun Fight

On this date 22 years ago sadistic killers Platt & Matix had their brief, but violent criminal careers ended in the Miami Firefight.

Let's take a moment to remember FBI SAs Dove and Grogan who died that day while part of a rolling stake out team looking for P&M. Five other agents were wounded in the shootout.

This shootout brought about the FBI's search for a magic round and brought us the .40 S&W as a down load from the 10mm which the FBI deemed too much for the average SA.

For those who don't recall/remember:

http://www.miamibeach411.com/news/index.php?/news/comments/miami-shootout/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html

Wow, never heard of this incident before.
Thanks for posting

I was only 4. My family remembers it though.

Definitely a rifle situation handled with pistols.

....**silence**....


I love the .40S&W.

I remember that incident quite clearly. Strong argument for why there should always be automatic weapons at hand for ANY LEO. This was a case in point.

If I remember right, the younger officer had a snub nose revolver?

Personally, I'm all for officers having AK-47's (high-quality of course), shortened variants, at hand....plenty of punch, plenty of visual deterrence and will routinely penetrate and defeat most light armor, car bodies, cinder blocks, and small trees up to 5-6 inches in diameter...

Yeah yeah yeah I know all about the over-penetration issue.....that's what training is all about...just ask the officers in the North Hollywood Bank of America Robbery....

Once an incident like this is underway, the officers responding's best choice/move is to put it down and put it down quickly....you just can't do that very easily with short guns regardless of caliber....

You need 12 gauges and auto rifles to do the job, period.....problem solved in a few minutes....in fact, one could reasonably argue that they are SAFER due to the limited time engaged?

I can't believe it's "safer" to have officers shooting it out for 40 or 60 minutes....can you?

Sad sad day....hope we don't see too many more like this.....

They don't need automatics. This shootout would have ended just as quickly with a .30-30 levergun as it would have with an AR15.

If you have Comcast "In the Line of Fire-The FBI Murders" is a free offering right now. It's actually pretty good.

I believe it is a very well done re-creation of the actual gunfight. It was really kind of a horror story. David Soul who played the suspect Platt kept getting hit and hit and just kept coming like a real life zombie.

These guys weren't even hyped up on drugs

"If you have Comcast "In the Line of Fire-The FBI Murders" is a free offering right now. It's actually pretty good."

The reenactment of the gunfight was good and fairly accurate. The rest of the movie was just ridiculous however and mostly fictional.

*/minute of silence/*

This incident is used as an example of the inadequacy of .38 revolvers and 9 mm pistols (what most of the FBI agents had.) Can it be used as an example of the effectiveness of the .223 Rem/5.56 mm NATO rifle round?

Apparently one BG fired one 12 gage shot gun round; all the rest of the fire at the FBI agents was by the second BG, with a Mini 14 and .357 revolver. He was able to hit all 6 FBI agents (killing 2) and keep them pinned down so he and he partner could get from their car (that was boxed in by FBI vehicles) to one of the FBI cars, and attempt to escape. It was only after the BG with the rifle stopped firing in order to try to start the FBI car that an agent was able return effective fire and kill the 2 BGs.

<silence>

I watch too many movies, only until recently (past 5 years) do I understand that gunfights are very short, brutal affairs that i do not want to be a part of. I do not care too much for the police, but I respect them to the fullest. People screaming and crying, pain, suffering, even if only for mere seconds. Absolutely frightening. My heart goes to anyone that has experienced this. Ive come close, but never that close. :(

Rifle affair? YES! One rifle could have solved a FEW of the problems present. When I read the recollection of the events, it seems like it took forever, but it was only a matter of seconds, or minutes. Scarry.

As to "this fight describes why we need X round" really does not come to my mind. The events after are interesting, if from an engineering standpoint (new calibers, weapons and round). However, it shows that thinking can take time in a fight. The agents reacted as they could. It illustrates how subconscious training (doing it out of habit, rather than having to think) is very important. Not looking at your gun while loading, finding cover immediantly upon firing/fired upon, etc... are all things that have to be ingrained (rather than trained) in.

Saying, that, I have a long way to go with my training.

I saw this in an hour-long re-enactment on TV. At the time, I identified this as one of the most amazing shoot-out stories I had ever seen or heard of.

It also dawned upon me even as I saw the re-enactment, that it was amazing that the robbers were not dropped outright by only one or two hits.

I've always been amazed that someone could be hit by a speeding bullet but function with only slight interruption.:uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:

I've never understood how the FBI honchos managed to conclude that the solution to this horrorible incident was a bigger handgun. If you look at the forensic analysis, it's clear the gunman with the Mini-14 ruled that entire event until finally brought down. Just as other suspects armed with long guns have been able to kill or pin down officers. The solution is better tactics and rifles or carbines. Even an old levergun. But for some reason the FBI had a weird reluctance to move beyond short guns and underloaded scatterguns. I wonder if they eqip agents better now.

I'm sure the new season of the History Channel's "Shootout" show will create a reenactment.

I have read a lot of the stuff about this incident over the past 2 years. I failed to notice that it took place on my birthday. I will always rember this every birthday from now on.

A rifle is of course always prefferable to a handgun, but .40 S&W managed to stop that tiger in LA. Of course it took 4 magazine's worth...

The fight was ended by SA Mireles with a shotgun. He was forced to operate it one handed because of the wounds he had received.

Even if you're hit, stay in the fight.

If the tiger had been shooting back with a mini 14 the .40's would have failed.

P & M hope your burning in hell.

AGENTS RIP

Thats why I would recommend a .44 magnum for a tiger but I would be more comfortable having a .500 magnum.
Rifle wise a .375 magnum
Now the Miami gun fight would have ended fast if the Agents had a AR15 and a .44 magnum revolver.

They don't need automatics. This shootout would have ended just as quickly with a .30-30 levergun as it would have with an AR15.+1,000!

Obviously, whoever said they need full-auto weapons has never tried to train a whole bunch of people to hit anything with one!

I would vote for the 30-30 lever-gun over any full-auto weapon for police use.
Just about any type of rifle action would be far better then a buzzgun!

rcmodel

My son-in-law spent over 2 years in combat with the Army Cav. He echoes the sentiment that his M9 was only to be used until he could get to another M4. Handguns are the last line of defense in a gunfight to be sure...

I agree with cosmoline. The lesson I take from this incident is that a fast rifle and a determined shooter can be one darn hard target to take out with pistols...any pistols.

I drive by the scene and the memorial almost everyday (my wife now has a store in front of where this occurred). I cringe everytime I see Dove's and Grogan's names. I still can't believe a 9-minute gun battle happened there.

Yes, rifles are better than handguns, but that should not have been an issue. The opening shots took place across the hood of the FBI car that had Platt and Matix pinned in, virtually all missing from distances of 6-10 feet.

You gotta hit your target properly. However, the FBI blaming the event on ineffective calibers is a bit silly and is just a cover for very poor preparation and tactics. Granted, these agents were not supposed to be the ones who initiated the stop, but that is what happened. They knew it was a possibility and took some extra gear, but mostly didn't use any of it. They didn't bring any rifles even though they knew they were going against rifles (or as it turned out, a rifle). Agents lost glasses, gun, left gear (shotguns in cases, ballistic vests) in their cars where it was stowed and/or inaccessible. One agent's gun fell out into the street and he spent the event watching from behind a dumpster. One or two others lost their guns in their cars during the collision and had to rely on their BUGs (snubbies).

Unfortunately, the agents went with what they had learned and knew and their training let them down.

Law enforcement has been using situations like this to increase fire power and budgets for a long time. But cops continue to get killed.

No amount of tactical gear or large bore weapons substitute for quality training. Until they figure this out, its a merry go round.

.40 S&W as a down load from the 10mm which the FBI deemed too much for the average SA

Another example of lowering standards to fill seats. If you can't handle a 10, then you got no business being a SA.