[neededausername]

I'm just curious. Why is there so much focus on Defense style matches, such as IDPA? Why are things like steel silhouette so uncommon? I don't have anything against the IDPA people, but that's not the discipline that I'm into. I'd rather shoot a few well spaced rounds at distant targets, then try and learn to do double taps. To each their own.

[Double Naught Spy]

Why? Because people are concerned with defense-related practice.

On top of that, it is a more exciting kind of match in which to participate and to watch.

[SoCalShooter]

ditto on double naught spy's comment. I prefer bullseye shooting but I still do practical combat practice its a good skill and sometimes the practice that i get from bullseye is perhaps not the best for combat.

[skinewmexico]

Takes a ton more space and effort to set up a silhouette range. Only takes a few empty pistol bays, some target holders, and an imagination to pull off an IDPA match. I also figure the odds of my using my concealed handgun in a defensive situation are a lot greater than needing to shoot something at 50-100 yards with a pistol.

[modifiedbrowning]

To each their own.
Exactly.

[Sunray]

"...Takes a ton more space and effort to set up a silhouette range..." Exactly. Mind you, neither IDPA nor IPSC are in the least bit practical. They're shooting games and nothing more.

[Double Naught Spy]

Mind you, neither IDPA nor IPSC are in the least bit practical. They're shooting games and nothing more.

Well, I guess any sort of competition shooting isn't the least bit practical for anything because it is just a game, nothing more.:rolleyes:

[fineredmist]

IDPA and other gun "games" are teaching tools as well as being fun times. A great number of pistol shooters go to the range shoot bull targets and feel that they are ready to defend themselves and their loved ones on the street and in their homes. There is a vast difference between combat style shooting and real life shooting. IDPA style shooting will give you a taste of real life situations. With safety in mind, a IDPA shooter will learn how to draw a weapon from under a article of clothing, assess a situation and take out a target. They also learn to do rapid reloads, take advantage of cover and shoot in darken rooms using a flashlight.
Are they games? Yes, they are but they also give you experience in skills that may save your butt.

[Fly320s]

Why so much focus on Defense style matches?
More action and excitement with a high round count in IDPA and USPSA.

People like action, excitement, and feeling like they are getting their money's worth of time and effort spent to make it to the range.

[Chris Rhines]

Just my observation, but I think that the practical-shooting games have gotten better marketing in the shooting community than, for instance, ISSF Smallbore Rifle or Hunter's Pistol. I personally think that the practical games are more fun, but that's me.

If you're interested in silhouette shooting or whatever, start some threads on it. That's what the forum is here for. :D

- Chris

[Hoser]

I started in smallbore silhouette when I was 11 or 12. Shot it for a few years till I discovered girls and airplanes.

When I got back into competitive shooting I was 22 and IPSC looked like a lot of fun. Complete lunatic fringe. Running with a loaded gun? Crazy. Lots of excitement, never the same thing twice, lots of shooting, lots of skills to master, sexy guns and whiz bang reloaders.

I am still mainly an IPSC shooter, but shoot a lot more 3-gun now and had to relearn how to shoot a rifle. I now have 3 new Anschutz smallbore silhouette rifles and a 1913 prone gun.

Pure target shooting might be a hell of a challenge, but IPSC/IDPA is a lot of fun and a much more social event.

[moooose102]

imo, the reason people want to shoot defense type coures lies in the real safety in our streets, or should i say, the lack of real safety. if people were very comfortable with our police forces to be able to keep us safe, i do not think so many people would want hand guns in the first place. if you believe that you are posibly going to have to use your weapon in self defense, then you should practice doing that. hence that style of shooting competition. there are no losers in this style of shoot, just winners. because no matter how well you personally placed, you still got some much needed simulation training. and there for, bettered you chances in a real life situation. now that you mentioned this, i think i will try to find out about something like this in my area.

[eflatminor]

Because they're more...fun. I shoot both Bullseye and IPSC/IDPA. Love both but defense style shooting is more fun. Bullseye is harder.

[btg3]

The maps below show how state laws have increasingly adopted "right to carry" over a 20 year period. I think the increasing interest in self-defense shooting training and competition needs little explantion.
http://www.gun-nuttery.com/maps/1986.gif
http://www.gun-nuttery.com/maps/2006.gif

[RH45]

I've shot bullseye, and got bored with it. I've shot silhouette, and liked it, but, the only practical application it has is hunting. I originally started shooting USPSA, back in '93 just to be more familar with the handguns I had, and it is addicting! I also have shot IDPA since it's inception. I also started shooting 3-gun about 5 years ago, which I think is a real hoot, but, you have to drag around gear for all 3 guns, and, of course you have triple the investment for the gear. USPSA just bought the rights to the "steel challange" which I think will be fun too, if there are any matches close to me, I'll give it a try.:D

Oh yeah, and I'm lucky enough to live in one of the two red states, where our governer feels that nobody but law enforcement should even own a pistol!:cuss:

[Luis Leon]

Fun, fun, fun, and good people. You get to try shooting on the move, reloading, drawing from concealment, etc. I shoot IDPA, some USPSA and 3-gun matches. I like 3-gun the most as you get to go to town with all three of your guns. Try it, attend a match meet some of the folks, but watch out, because its easy to get hooked.

regards,

Luis Leon

[BBroadside]

"Yes, they are but they also give you experience in skills that may save your butt."

I'm glad you wrote that, finered, because in the "Fighting Shotguns" thread many people are agreeing that skeet and trap are decent training for shotgun fighting (even though they weren't created with anything like that in mind).

Practical and IDPA were created partly to simulate gunfights, on some level. If they really are just games and nothing more, well, I'd be very disappointed. I mean, I'd like to think an IDPA match would be better training than a Scrabble match.... :)

[neededausername]

My wife grew up shooting NRA silhouette matches. She shoots very controlled and accurately. She took one self defense course, her instructor(the one who set up the action matches in the area) told her she didn't need the instruction. We recently bought a .22 pistol and her groups were right on. A silhouette match teaches you the basics of shooting, things like grip, breathing, etc. I would rather be able to put my first shot into center of mass than to be able to do a "double tap" at his shoulder.

[rrflyer]

Youre assuming people who shoot idpa or the likes are bad shots and can't hit center mass. Far from the truth.

You may be able to put one in center but how bout 2,3,4,5 while moving to cover.

[Sam1911]

I would rather be able to put my first shot into center of mass than to be able to do a "double tap" at his shoulder.

Certainly a valid point. However, one of the keys to practical shooting disciplines is speed. How long does it take to draw your pistol, aim, and fire that center of mass shot? In a self-defense situation your target is not going to be idly standing by while you accomplish the task. What is he doing with that time? The worst case scenario would be that he launched a couple of wild shots that landed, say, in your gut and through your thigh, piercing the femoral.

Now you can stand there all day (well, no...you can't) arguing that his hits weren't "A" zone, "Down 0", or 10-X shots -- and you might even be able to persuade the Safety Officer that the two combined still amount to a "Failure to Neutralize," but ... ?

On the other hand, that "double tap at his shoulder" (if that's all you could muster quickly) probably would pretty effectively disrupt his actions, at least long enough to land a better shot.

Or, you could shoot practical "games" for a while and learn to land those double-taps where they'll be most effective!

(By the way, most dedicated IDPA/USPSA shooters are pretty good shots even if forced to shoot slowly!)

:D

-Sam

[RobMoore]

Bullseye bores me. I do it once in a while, sometimes as a drill to maintain good trigger control habits, but its a game of fractions of an inch, without that much of a time constraint put on you (no, I don't consider 5 rounds in 10 seconds a tight time constraint)

IDPA/USPSA on the other hand do require accuracy, but its more like whole inches, and time RULES the day. You have to be fast to win.

I know plenty of guys who shoot bullseye and don't like IDPA, and they may be able to hit a quarter @ 50 yards, while I'm trying to hit a dollar bill, but they can't hit a dollar @ 10 yards while moving, and I can.

[btg3]

IDPA/USPSA on the other hand do require accuracy, but its more like whole inches, and time RULES the day. You have to be fast to win.

I would stress accuracy above time for IDPA. Just being fast won't result in a competitive score or develop lifesaving skill. But I'll admit that my reason for shooting IDPA is to improve myself rather than outdo the others.

[Chris Rhines]

At the higher levels, USPSA and NRA Conventional Pistol have similar accuracy requirements. IDPA somewhat less so, only because the targets are usually closer, but you still can't afford to throw rounds all over the place and still win.

- Chris

[BullfrogKen]

Because the shooting community has changed. Shooters today are interested in using guns for their practical purposes.


Shooting matches interested in pure accuracy has been declining for decades. How many manufacturers make Bullseye competition pistols today? There are still choices, but not nearly as many as there once were.


How many manufacturers produce pistols suited for IDPA and ISPC matches. There are more manufacturers making 1911 pistols today than at any point in history, including 2 World Wars. Even companies that swore to never enter the 1911 market have cast their lot in the market, this after IPSC's heyday.


The nature of the market has changed. The rapid liberalization of carry permits across the U.S. have seen folks buying guns suitable to exercise that right. It only makes sense the activities that give folks a chance to go have fun with those guns would surpass others in popularity, too.

[Tarvis]

Mind you, neither IDPA nor IPSC are in the least bit practical. They're shooting games and nothing more

You sound like you haven't shot either. In IDPA, you lose points if you don't use proper cover. Thanks for trying tho.

[Luis Leon]

IDPA, USPA are practical in that you become, over time, very proficient in handling and manipulating your weapon of choice. Clearing malfunctions, rapid mag changes, presentation from concealment are a few that come to mind. I know for a fact that all my own personal gun-handling skills are much better because of my shooting in various matches for the past 3 years.

You see it all the time, a new shooter shows up, he's awkward during the first few matches, then mid-season you notice a change, he's more confident, and moving up on you in the scores... ha ha ha. It really is good fun and keeps you proficient. As long as you have no delusions you do get something out of it.

regards,

Luis Leon

[Wayne G.]

IDPA, USPA are practical in that you become, over time, very proficient in handling and manipulating your weapon of choice. Clearing malfunctions, rapid mag changes, presentation from concealment are a few that come to mind. I know for a fact that all my own personal gun-handling skills are much better because of my shooting in various matches for the past 3 years.

Hi five!

Luis nailed it.

[Jim Watson]

I have shot IDPA (and IPSC before that) for some years and I am not as accurate as I was when shooting bullseye and PPC. I have traded speed for accuracy. That is the attraction of "defensive style matches". They are fun and you don't really have to be a very good shot to play. If you pull a shot, so what, it is all washed out in the Vickers or Comstock scores where time and hits are mashed together and you don't really know what was happening.

[SinistralRifleman]

From The Army Marksmanship Unit's Action Shooting Team site:

If shooting has an “Extreme” sport then Action Shooting is it. Competitors move negotiate obstacles, run, speed-reload, and drive there guns through each of several courses as fast as their skill will allow. In our sport, just as in combat both speed and accuracy are equally important. A fast run with poor hits or misses is likely to cost you the match just as perfect shots and a slow time will not win. The key to success is a balance of speed and accuracy, just like a gun fight.

http://www.usaac.army.mil/amu/asindex.html

...I believe that sums up the question of "why it is more popular" quite nicely. Regardless of the sport, people want action. "Extreme Sports" of all kinds are becoming more popular.

[ShakyJ]

I have a few years of experience with IDPA (no experience with IPSC). I think "defensive style matches" are popular because they are entertaining. It is kind of like negotiating an obstacle course with a handgun. Matches can be shot by people with varying skill levels and you are surrounded (usually) by good folks. Like anything, though, there are pros and cons. My personal list (for IDPA) is:

Pros:
1. Makes you actually get out and shoot your handgun(s)
2. Emphasis on safety
3. Makes you practice drawing from concealment
4. Makes you shoot strong hand, weak hand, both hands (freestyle) and
from various positions (stationary and moving)
5. Emphasis on using cover

Cons:
1. Often unrealistic scenarios (too many targets, stationary targets, too
high round count)
2. To be competitive, it forces a participant to focus on speed rather than
use of sound tactics
3. Participants may develop a false sense of confidence with regard to their
defensive skill set (i.e. becoming proficient at shooting multiple stationary
targets that do not return fire)
4. Often mistaken for training (while there are aspects from which we can
learn, it is still a game)
5. A shooter may develop bad habits in order to become more competitive
(Personally, when performing a slide lock reload, I began hitting the slide
stop with my thumb because it was faster, even though that is not how I
was trained)
6. Penalties for use of cover, failure to do right, etc. are very subjective

Of course, just my $.02

[RobMoore]

I don't consider thumbing the slide catch for a reload a bad habit.

As for the other cons, the only way to get rid of those and maintain a combat-style shooting sport is force on force, whether it be paintball or sim rounds, ect.

[Trader]

People like IDPA because it is easy. Easy to do, not easy to win at. One seldom sees a target at 20 yards and that does not present a big marksmanship challenge. USPSA to some extent is the same with some added target difficulty and more rounds / movement. The average shooter can have fun with these games. Sports that require higher marksmanship ability do not fare as well anymore. NRA Action Pistol used to be fairly popular but I witnessed at many different clubs where the USPSA or IDPA sports killed AP. Reason being is NRA AP required a lot more work, practice and dedication, especially shooting metallic class. A club I shot many decades ago had a strong PPC league, both police and civilian. When IPSC came into the area it vanished.

[skinewmexico]

IDPA is cheap, That would kill a lot of expensive and highly regimented sports.

[Luis Leon]

Some say they trade speed for accuracy, or accuracy or speed, etc. They are not mutually exclusive. Some of the better IDPA competitors I've seen are former bulleye's shooters. I do a lot of taping of targets, so after the competitor is done I get to see what kind of groups they are getting on target. Sure, some guys just hose, and the scoring zones are generous, but they never place well, against fast, accurate shooters. Over time it shakes down, and it is the faster, more accurate shooters that are at the top.

If you go into any of these games taking it too seriously, then the negatives are bound to crop up. For me its all about more trigger time, more excuses to shoot on the move or run, etc. Before these games my range time was quite boring, just punching paper.

Since, I don't shoot for a living I show up ready to play and I try to place well, if not, redemption is one stage, or match away. I like as much trigger time as I can get, however I can get it. So I consider all the games I play to make me a better shooter.

I consider my match fee to be a prop rental fee. I show up with my toy or toys and get to shoot steel poppers, plates, cardboard targets, swingers, texas stars... whats not to like... Some people bring too much gravity to what is supposed to be a temporary reprieve from our everyday world

regards,

Luis Leon

[Mr. Chitlin]

I'm just curious. Why is there so much focus on Defense style matches, such as IDPA? Why are things like steel silhouette so uncommon? I don't have anything against the IDPA people, but that's not the discipline that I'm into. I'd rather shoot a few well spaced rounds at distant targets, then try and learn to do double taps. To each their own.

I think you answered your own question.

[Tarvis]

have shot IDPA (and IPSC before that) for some years and I am not as accurate as I was when shooting bullseye and PPC.

?? You make it sound like no one hits alphas when they shoot USPSA... and actually you lose points for hitting less than an alpha, so making light of the accuracy part of the competition is very narrow minded. You sound like you haven't been shooting practical pistol very much.

I have traded speed for accuracy.

Sounds like a personal problem, as USPSA is base on speed and accuracy. I was taught that to get good, you should concentrate on hitting all alphas and the speed will come with time. EVERYONE I talk to that shoots USPSA said it took about 6+ years of shooting every weekend and practicing to get into the A class. Sounds to me like you've shot for <1 year which doesn't exactly make you an expert.


On a more general thought:
Why is it that the nay sayers are the ones that shot the course of fire twice and decided they didn't like getting beat by 5 year veterans? It's not easy, it takes practice, you will lose a lot, it takes more than a few shoots to put up good scores.

[cpirtle]

Why so much focus on Defense style matches?

FWIW, the last I knew Cowboy Action Shooting was the fastest growing shooting sport in the country with over 80,000 SASS members and counting.


Personally I think the more shooting disceplines we have in this country the better. We need all of the gun owning, shooting loving Americans we can get.

I shoot IDPA, CAS & 3-gun (if I can find them) because it is fun, I get to shoot more, and it hones my skills. (in that order)

All of these activities will better prepare someone for a time when they may need their gun for real. They promote confidence in gun handling and train reflexes that people who go to a range and put lead on paper just don't get.

IMO, "action" shooting in competition is like playing a game of 5 on 5 basketball at the gym and going to the range to shoot is like playing HORSE in the driveway with your daughter.



PS: I have shot PPC and various long range/benchrest and they are WAY too slow paced for me. Lots of people love them, I have no problem with that.