Must conceal: Size matters


April 12, 2008, 02:49 PM
Hey guys,...been out of the loop for a few weeks. My recent employment with the Sheriff's Dept is gong well, but I have an issue to resolve.

Even though TN is an open carry state, my employer requires us to carry concealed. We are issued G22's and currently I have both a Kydex paddle, and a Hough leather IWB. The IWB works best for me with the Glock, but the Glock is larger than I prefer for a couple reasons. In order to carry the Glock, I have to wear large, long shirts, un-tucked. I just don't like the look. I have purchased a couple Aloha shirts with square bottoms that help, but it's still not the tucked look I prefer.

I have considered a tuckable holster but the glock is still too large. I am looking at the M&P compact, XD compact, G27, 30 and 36, but there is still considerable bulk, even though shorter in both stock and barrel. I looked at the Khar 40's but have been told they are temperamental with ammo selection.

I want a 40 or 45, though haven't entirely discounted 9mm. Small enough to conceal IWB with tuckable holster, but large enough for fairly large hands. I'm pretty large framed at 6'2", 290. What do you recommend?

BTW, part of the issue is that I live near the Ky. state line and the sheriff doesn't want his guns going out of Tn. This is strictly a personal firearm that I must qualify with.

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April 12, 2008, 03:07 PM
Personally, I would lean towards the Glock Model 27 that way you can still use the hi-cap magazines from your issued Glock Model 22.

However, sounds like you should be looking at single stacked handguns, since you consider the double stacks as being bulky.

Check out...
... a "commander" or "officer" sized 1911 (like the Colt Defender and Para-Ordnance PDA)
... SIG P-220 Carry
... SIG P-239
... Glock Model 36

April 12, 2008, 03:17 PM
Since you are issued a full-size G22, see if your department will let you carry a G23. It's a lot easier to conceal, but the grips should fit large hands fine, unlike the G27. Also, in a pinch, you can use G22 mags.

Do you get issued duty ammo too? If so, sticking with .40 S&W seems pretty logical.

April 12, 2008, 03:20 PM
One of the things I personally keep in mind with concealability is thickness of the frame and the length of the grip. It seems to me that the grip is the part that tends to give away a firearm more then anything. Compact glocks or any other flavor of compact full service weapon are certainly an option, but also I would recommend the following:

You might want to check out the Khar line of pistols. They are well known for their concealability. They also come in the .45 flavor that you said you are interested in.

A Kelteck P40 would also work for you. They are small enough that most people can pocket carry one without any hassle. But, if you have large-ish hand, I would recommend handling one before deciding.

You may also want to look into a Walther PPS. They are equally small and come in 9 and .40 flavor.

Certainly a CZ-Rami/CZ-2075 or CZ-100 in a .40 flavor would be also in line with what you are asking.

Thats pritty much all I can think up of in the category of dedicated CCW guns rather then shortened service models.

April 12, 2008, 03:21 PM
A Sig 225/P6

Slim... comfortable and cheap

April 12, 2008, 03:58 PM
Hmmmmmm, the G22 mags will work in the G27?

The dealer has a really super LE deal on on glocks, and the 27 had my lean, just because of ammo commonality with the 22. I didn't know the 22 mags would fit though. That'd be handy at times! :)

I did look at some Khars but was advised they don't run some ammo very well. They didn't say which ammo,...any one know of an issue?

April 12, 2008, 04:14 PM
I don't see much point is sticking G22 mags in a G27. The reason the handle is smaller is for concealment so sticking those huge mags in takes away the advantage of the G27 - the big mags are only good in a pinch this way. Otherwise, might as well carry the full-size and be done with it.

April 12, 2008, 04:17 PM
Might check out the Taurus compact .45's also (Millenium Pro has both a single stack and a double stack .45 flavor and their 24/7 compact .45 in double stack.)

Worth a look...I recently bough the .45 single stack over the Kahr single stack .45 because it felt better in my hand. I actually prefer the look of the Kahr and the name certainly has a little more clout behind it than Taurus, but so far I haven't regretted the decision.

April 12, 2008, 04:22 PM
You might check out the small/flat kt PF9...

April 12, 2008, 04:28 PM
About KelTec reliability,...

Are KelTecs okay out of the box, or do they require considerable finish work?
And, recoil wise, how much difference is expected between the G22 and the smaller .40 cal KelTec?

April 12, 2008, 04:31 PM
I know the early Pf9s had some issues but they seem to have been worked out now according to reports..

Should be fine out of the box ..but in a Hard Chrome finish for instance would not only have corrosion protection but also enhance smoothness in function and reliability as it has natural lubricate properties ..something maybe also to consider.

April 12, 2008, 04:45 PM

Sig P229 40cal, 12+1 flush fit mags.. Optional Crimson Trace laser grips..

Perfect ccw size IWB and, due to its beautiful weight and balance, you will find it one of, IF not, the softest recoiling 40cals out there for fast, accurate, follow-up shots..

I shoot 180gr JHP's with mine and it far out shoots what I thought was the softest shooting 40cal, my Beretta Px4 40cal, easier, faster, and far more accurate..

4000 rounds of flawless shooting.. *DA/SA with mine, but you have *options there, as well, including an optional 357 sig barrel needed-only, as mags fit both 40cal and 357 sig..

Not my gun but close enough..

*see here:

Also: if you want 9mm, SA's 3" 1911 SAO EMP w/3 single stack mags 9+1 see here, post #26:


April 12, 2008, 04:47 PM
The Keltecs did have some teething problems,primarily in the first 100-500 guns made. Most of these were sold primarily to plant employees anyway to do a large-scale test run. All issues that were mechanically related have been resolved, and they are no less reliable then Sig, Glock, or Kimber. All have about equal Lemon rate. People still advise that you "fluff-n-buff" a new Keltec, but this is no longer mandatory, but it gives some people more confidence. For reference I have a PF9, and I did polish the feed ramp on it (took about 20-30 seconds with a dremel felt tip and some light polishing compound, besides any new gun needs to be broken down, cleaned and relubed anyway, so this added all of about 1 minute of extra work). Equally, a fair number have taken them strait from the box to the range without any fluffing and buffing and never had any issues.

As far as recoil, a Keltec can be quite hefty because of their low weight. Some people are fine with it, others it bothers. I would say its not a gun you go to shoot for fun at the range, but its light weight and small size means you can always have it with you and almost forget your packing, because its so unobtrusive.

Random Discharge
April 12, 2008, 08:49 PM
The first Kahr (K9) was built with a tight 9mm chamber that would tend to choke on anything but fresh factory ammo. Also required 200 rounds of break-in before it was reliable according to the user manuals. I have one in electroless nickel and it won't handle reloads, but has never malfuntioned with factory fresh ammo. It has fired LOTs of fresh factory ammo.

I've also heard of and had bad experience with polymer Kahrs.

Recent production Kahr chambers have been eased up a bit, and the steel Kahrs have proven to be very reliable. You should have no cause for concern with reliability if you stick with a steel Kahr. If you like them, get one.

April 12, 2008, 09:27 PM
I would stay with the XD/Glock/M&P compacts or sub-compacts and skip the Kel-Tec… Here’s why…

Hearing things about Kel-Tecs like “They are great pistols just as long as you don't shoot them much”, doesn't exactly make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Kel-Tec only puts the life of their pistols at around 6000 rounds. :eek: These are for people who don’t shoot much. You will also hear reports just carrying them in a holster for a few days can make them malfunction. I think most would agree that they wont hold up like, or have the reliability of the M&P, Glock, or XD.

I went to my local gun shop and compared the XDsc and PF-9 side-by-side. Surprisingly there was not THAT big of a difference in size (there was in quality). Sure the XDsc was thicker, but not so much so to compensate for the reliability and quality difference between them.

Think about unlikely scenarios of being in a bad situation where some psycho starts shooting people, and he’s headed your way. In those few seconds (which would seem like minutes)... Which pistol would you want to have with you, the XD/Glock/M&P or the Kel-Tec? That would not be a time for a jam or malfunction... It seems like the list of problems with the Kel-Tec’s are a long one over on the KTOG pages. They have a running list of serial number ranges and the problem's (yes that’s plural) you should/could expect within that range. This too doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling... In your line of work, the Lifetime warranty of Kel-Tec may not be that long because of their relibility!

April 12, 2008, 11:14 PM
Glocks are thick. Even the shorter slides and grip frame model Glocks are still going to be thick - "bulky" is how I believe you referred to it.

Point to consider - try to get something that operates like your duty weapon. 1911's and Browning Hi-Powers are thinner, and the smaller 1911's conceal nicely. But it's going to require a different manual of arms to operate it. Unless you're willing to make the investment in time and ammo for training, you might be better served getting something without a manually-operated external safety.

Kahr's are compact, flat, and will work just like your Glock. So will Kel-tek's. There are probably some other choices out there, but I'd recommend beginning your search with those two choices first.

April 12, 2008, 11:24 PM
Hey there:
Can you carry a single action ? If so the Kimber Ulta carry works for me.
3" barrel and light weight. It is a 1911 style which I like. But then maybe you are required to carry a double, not sure. Just another idea.

April 12, 2008, 11:59 PM

April 13, 2008, 08:11 AM
I carry a glock 36 Very slim framed auto. It has a single stack mag 6+1.This maybe a draw back for you but not me I even carry an extra clip.I use a cross breed super tuck and can carry the gun all day and not know it is there.

April 13, 2008, 08:14 AM
Thanks guys,...lots of good food for thought here, as always. :)

April 13, 2008, 07:32 PM

maybe also consider a nice J-frame style revolver like the s&w 442/642 brother is in the nypd, thats his off duty carry..and it carries well.

April 13, 2008, 07:35 PM
I love my .40 XD Subcompact. Very easy to conceal and I've always been very happy with the XD line. Good luck.

BTW, I have a Crossbreed Supertuck IWB and I really do like it.

April 14, 2008, 01:04 AM
Try a Heckler & Koch P2000sk and see how it fits your hand. Comes with a several backstraps so you can fit it to your hand accordingly. Reliable, light, and if you get the LEM trigger, you still have that DAO feel although it's not quite the Glock trigger, but somewhat similar functionality. H & K's HE finish on the pistol should be helpful with IWB carry, especially during those Tennessee summers.

I have a full size P2000 and love it; thinking long and hard about the P200sk.

April 16, 2008, 08:35 AM
I took a second look at Khar and a closer look at the XD. Prices are better for XD, M&P, and Glock just because of LE discounts with different dealers, but I really like the size of the Khar, and at about $425, it seems reasonable enough.

Thanks for all the insight folks.

April 16, 2008, 10:41 AM
I'd go Kahr fullsize (E/K/P models).

Mine have been dead reliable (all 9mm's), and shoot surprisingly well for a small gun. I'm of similar size as you and the Kahr's are the smallest guns that I can comfortably get a good grip on. They are still small, thin, and light however; thus they conceal better than just about anything excluding a pocket gun.

You could also keep the same manual of arms as the Glocks running a Kahr. Win/Win.

April 16, 2008, 10:49 AM
I know what you mean...I am a Police firearms instructor and and come to realize after owning a few handguns over the years that they all point different. If you shoot a glock at work you should carry one off duty. That said the G23 or 27 is a very logical way to go. Both will take the G22 mag and be alot more concealable.

April 16, 2008, 11:32 AM
Stay away from the Kel-Tec P40. They are garbage, pure and simple. You also will have trouble shooting it. It's too small a package for the .40 S&W round.

April 16, 2008, 01:10 PM
Another +1 for the Glock 36, nice slim .45, you won't realize your carrying it, very comfortable weapon & easy to conceal, will be easy for you to transition to from your duty weapon, very reliable.

Tom Fury
April 16, 2008, 01:51 PM
Smaller than Sig 226, DA/SA, .45, Absolutely reliable, less expensive, pleasing accuracy and very flat. Also uses 4506 mags. Slimmer than Glocks and Sigs by a long shot. How anyone carries a Glock of any variety comfortably IWB is beyond my comprehension, but thats' just my two coppers.

Galco scout or something like should do it.

Cheers, TF

April 16, 2008, 05:33 PM
How about a couple tropic weight sport coats?

April 16, 2008, 05:54 PM
I've read all the posts so far and have considered everything, and for your situation I'd suggest either a aluminum-framed (lightweight) commander size 1911 or a Kahr pistol. They are the only guns that I can think of that will actually feel significantly thinner than the others mentioned (ie. Glock XD M&P). The thickness of a pistol is what makes it more or less noticeable for IWB carry..more than the length or height of the gun.

Then again, a shorter grip (overall height) will cause it to print less under a shirt. I'm not so concerned with the barrel length...only width and height when choosing my CCW.

Overall, if I could suggest a pistol for your situation it would be a Kahr P45.

My question is why does your Dept. make you carry IWB if the law of the state is open-carry? I mean aren't you guys representing the law?

April 16, 2008, 06:25 PM
If you go with the G27, use the G27 mag in the gun but carry the G22 mags as spares! :what:

Having said that - I think that the mini Glocks are too thick. I love my Kahr K40. Slim, trim, manageable recoil. A little heavy, but did i say that it has manageable recoil!

Get a GOOD holster, a GOOD belt and carry what you can. (by the way - the Kahr is great in Smart Carry)

Having said all of the above - my off duty carry gun is my on duty carry gun - a H&K P2000 .40 LEM.

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