[theotherwaldo]

I've been trying to gather examples of common knives through the ages. Steels, iron types, bronzes, ceramics, stone, bone, and horn have all been collected, but I can't seem to connect with either a good original copper knife or a reasonable modern reproduction. This is one case where I don't really want to make it myself. It would feel like cheating!:rolleyes:

Any suggestions?

[rcmodel]

I think you might mean Bronze, not copper.

Try Googling "bronze knife" and you will get about a gazillion hits.

rcmodel

[theotherwaldo]

No, I mean copper, as was common roughly four thousand years ago. It was usually rough-cast into shape and gently hammered to a cutting edge. Often almost triangular in cross-section and chisel-pointed. Frequently hafted in a tubular bone section. May have been used in the first folding knives. Flat, symbolic copper knives are sometimes found, possibly as trade or votive items. Rare because they are fungible.

[SDC]

These would've been seen in one of two main blade forms, either a stabbing-style dirk or an edged knife that could be re-sharpened easily. You've got an interesting search in front of you, and I'm wondering if you've considered something like one of the daggers found by Carter in Tutankhamen's tomb: the one on the right is ceremonial, with an alloyed gold blade and inlaid grip, while the one on the left is the first known example of a non-meteoric iron knife, and has a crystal pommel. Both of these had hammered gold sheaths.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p22/StaceyC123/Tutankhamendaggers.jpg

[The Tourist]

Let me guess, you want an athame.

[theotherwaldo]

No, I want an example. I have a display showing the advancement of cutting implements from the earliest known forms to current technology.

There's just one major conceptual gap, and that's what we're talking about.

[hso]

Copper being the first metal blades (usually axes) I'm not surprised you're looking for an example. Copper is work hardenable through cold forging and was used for tools and weapons prior to the discovery of bronze.

Try some of the museum reproduction companies.

Failing that, let me know and I can have one of my smith friends make one for you.

[The Tourist]

Sorry for my caution. However, it is a concern of mine when I don't know where the knife is going to find a home.

For example, an hour's drive from my home is a place I believe is called "The Circle" something or other. It is a real deal "church" of Wicca.

We had a low-ball knife store here in Madison for a short time. Naturally, I went there to drop off my business card.

Sure enough, one of the guys was a samurai wannabee, and another one was a practicing witch. As you can guess, it seemed that knives appeared out of every pore in their bodies. I sharpened things that were clearly folding knives used in their jobs, but frankly that was it.

Granted, this is America and you can worship as you wish. But like Batman says, "I'm not required to help you."

If a bejeweled antler horned dagger would have appeared, I would have politely declined. And let's face it, you don't get requests for copper knives that often. You appear sincere, but I would still feel uneasy sharpening it for you.

Let me apologize if my behavior offended you in any way.

[theotherwaldo]

Understand your position and caution. I've got a sister in California that's a practicing Wiccan.
Five feet tall, 450 pounds, dancing "sky-clad".

(Shudder)

Please pass the mental floss.

No, just want an example for the display case. That's all.

[armoredman]

Glad I ate before I read that. *Urp*

[theotherwaldo]

Anyway, I certainly wouldn't ask some one to sharpen this item.

You normally sharpen a copper knife by laying it on a rock and tapping it with another rock. It's a blade used to eat slightly sun-ripened shell-fish and for starting the butchering on what washes ashore along a beach.

I figure that the main reason so few blades of this type are found is that they were used on sites that are now ten meters or more below current sea level.

(Curse that antediluvian global warming!)

[RyanM]

I dunno much about historical cutlery, but you may have some luck trying to find knives made by the Tlingit, of northwestern North America. One of the few Native American cultures to make much use of metal.

[SDC]

The pictures I've been able to find of historical copper knives seem to be of the same general style, usually in the shape of a small tomahawk, only hafted with the cutting edge projecting directly ahead of the grip, so you could use it like an ulu for skinning. Since most of them started off fairly small to begin with, and copper oxidizes easily, I'd think that that's a more likely reason for so few remaining examples.

[gb6491]

George Sweeney (http://www.bladesmith.com/) will make primitive copper blade knives.

Copper was used for tools by native North Americans; especially around the Great Lakes and Alaska. A copper bladed ulu might be a nice piece to add to your collection. There is one on this page: http://www.polarnet.ca/kugluktuk/qilaut.htm

Of the North American made copper knives, I like this one best: http://vilda.alaska.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/cdmg3&CISOPTR=199&REC=2&DMSCALE=100&DMWIDTH=1440&DMHEIGHT=2000

Regards,
Greg

[Funderb]

go get a copper plate and make one!

[The Tourist]

sister...Five feet tall, 450 pounds

Ya' know, just because she's a witch doesn't mean you have to follow in her tracks. Heck, I buy little plastic bottles (they say "holy water" in gold leaf)from a supplier of catholic supplies to use for wetting my sharpening stones. It gets a laugh.

Ask her where she would buy a copper athame. Heck, she's family, ask her for a discount.

[theotherwaldo]

Last time I saw my sister, she tried to stab me with a sharp stick.
No thanks.

Thanks, GB6491. I hadn't thought of ulus. The ones I was looking at were from the Black Sea and Golden Crescent and shaped more like wood chisels and oyster knives.

So I'm gonna take Funderb's advice and roll my own. That'll fill the slot in time for next month's display case.

[The Tourist]

I'm glad we got that straightened out. I got a PM inferring that my message may be misdirected.

Let me be clear. What I meant was that just because your beliefs differed from your sister, you could still use the same reseller for the knife.

For all I know there's a knife salesman who runs, Smiling Sam, Your Used Athame Dealer.

"Hey, Sam, I'm not Wiccan, but could you give me a good deal on your "Sky Clad Dancer Dagger," the extra husky model, but in copper..."

Yikes, I've had to repeat and explain everything I wrote this week! Again, I meant the reseller, not the religion!

[TS537]

You know, Oetzi the Ice Man (spelling?) had a copper knife, but it didn't really look that much like what you or I would think of as a knife--all handle with a blade not much more than an inch or two--sort of a non-retractable copper Exacto (the mind boggles).

[theotherwaldo]

I suspect that that is one of the more common forms - a metal version of the little notching and piercing blades, somewhere between the pen-knife and the awl. Not much evidence to back me up, and these blades are so tiny that corrosion would pretty much wipe them out if they ever existed.

[Funderb]

wow, is there a PM I missed? because it looks like the tourist came on to this thread with guns of assumption blazing and condescending word-daggers.

[The Tourist]

Yes, you missed a PM, quite a few--and a meeting--and your dues are in arrears.

[Funderb]

Oh, okay. I mean, jeeze, it threw me off, you usually don't do that, from what I've read.
It was very twilight zone.

[theotherwaldo]

I finally got around to looking at Oetzi's gear. Darn! Oetzi had a tiny arrowhead-type flint knife and a copper AXE!

Brain glitch... although the axe was halfway to being an ulu.

Y'know, ulus are an awful lot like the palm axes I used to find along the rivers out west - think there's a link?

[theotherwaldo]

I think I've finally found an original copper knife blade. It's a bit large for it's type, about 11 cm long, but classically formed.

http://www.ancient-treasures.com/~auctions/d675/150.jpg

I'll find out if it's mine in about two days.

[ArfinGreebly]

about 11 mm long
Uh . . .

Hopefully you meant 11 cm long . . . ?

[theotherwaldo]

Got me, Arfin. 11 centimeters it is.

That's the problem with working 12 1/2-hour days - you get a bit fuzzy around the edges.

[Brian Dale]

What's its origin? North America, Europe, elsewhere? Probable age?

[John G]

Sigh. Last week I borrowed a book on flint knapping from the library. I didn't need a stone knife. Now I've made two, and an axe project is on deck.

Now you guys have got me wanting a bronze knife. I don't need that either. This is a disease, isn't it?

[sm]

theotherwaldo,

This is so fascinating, and I appreciate your hard work in gathering examples of the ages.

Thank You!

Steve

[Dionysusigma]

John G: Sigh. Last week I borrowed a book on flint knapping from the library. I didn't need a stone knife. Now I've made two, and an axe project is on deck.

Now you guys have got me wanting a bronze knife. I don't need that either. This is a disease, isn't it?
:scrutiny: No...




It's called "evolution." :neener::D

[theotherwaldo]

The blade is reportedly from the Balkans and is supposedly 3500 to 4500 years old. Probably found with a mine detector... .

Anyway, it's a prime example and would definitely fill the slot.

[Brian Dale]

Wow. Neat to learn about. Thanks a lot for posting about it.

[Skofnung]

Be very careful when buying antiquities of that reported vintage. I'm to understand that there is quite a cottage industry churning out fake Bronze Age pieces. It stands to reason that they could venture back to the Copper Age without much trouble.

I'm not saying don't buy the piece, just don't pay a mint for it without establishing a legit provenance.

[theotherwaldo]

The probable price is low enough that I wouldn't mind buying a reasonably authentic fake. It's for display as a teaching tool. If it makes a few people think about history, technology, or much of anything else then it's paid for itself.

Anyway, it's kinda neat - just to have.

[Skofnung]

As long as you are comfortable with the price, go for it. Authentic looking fakes are certainly cool in their own right. I would just hate to see someone get burned buying a fake for tons of money.

One of my Anthropology instructors back in college specialized in the Copper Age, sites in Hungary to be specific.

Pieces from that time are very rare, as the Copper Age did not last long, and the copper artifacts were thought to have been melted down to make new bronze implements.

That is one of the problems with Copper/Bronze age artifacts. Where flint/obsidian and even iron and steel weapons are reductive (e.g. you knock or grind pieces off to sharpen, often leaving debitage or a stub for archaeologists to find later) copper and bronze are work hardened and peened to sharpen. They are rarely reduced.

If a copper/bronze blade broke, it went back into the smelter and came out as a new implement.

[theotherwaldo]

Sniped again - by one dollar in the last second. Ah, well. I guess I'll just make my own.

I've already collected a good bit of mammoth ivory for the handle, so I guess I'll make a small Inuit ulu - like the following, but without the stem:
http://www.arcticimages.com/images/extra741b.jpg
That should fill the gap for now.

[Funderb]

man I would not want to get stabbed with that thing. looks rough.