On Fighting Shotguns....


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chieftain
May 21, 2010, 10:55 PM
Good luck and God Speed in your adventures, Sir.

Fred

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mossytrigger
May 22, 2010, 10:09 AM
Thank you, you too

William Lee
June 23, 2010, 02:53 PM
What about the NEF Pardner pump gun? Chinese made I know, but I've had mine for 6 months and put 200 rounds through it each thursday without a single hitch. Action is really smooth too and the gun aims nice, all for under 160 bucks.

Dave McCracken
June 24, 2010, 10:58 AM
For $200 or so, a used 870 can be had. The last one I bought was $178 out the door.

El Clerkino
June 28, 2010, 12:58 AM
Considering getting a pistol grip stock for HD, Pro's Con's?

Dave McCracken
June 28, 2010, 12:42 PM
A full stock with a separate PG like the AK and AR is usable.

A shotgun with just a PG and no real stock is a real step back in effectiveness. That pro/con debate has been covered elsewhere, use the search feature and get a few gigs of input.

cookiemeister
July 6, 2010, 04:09 PM
Just found a New Mossberg Maverick O/U shotgun at
www.deadeyeammo.com they are raffling off for $5 each ticket, Only 150 tickets being sold:)

Dave McCracken
July 6, 2010, 11:26 PM
Good luck!!

oldbanjo
July 9, 2010, 10:12 AM
SHOCKWAVE Do you like the folding stock? My 500 came with heat shield, standard stock and PG. I added Mirror tritium front sight. I like the PG but am considering a folding stock since I use 3" mag 00 buckshot in the gun.

jfauc806
July 13, 2010, 08:58 PM
my coach gun is a Norinco, when I got it it took a little work to "tighten it up a bit" but after many, many rounds through it, I have all the faith in the world that it will protect my family if need be!

gun guy
August 8, 2010, 10:01 PM
i only used a shotgun once in a tactical situation, we stopped a car that was suspected of shooting up a wedding, a round hit the windshield, spiderwebbed it, by instinct i grabbed the shotgun out of the holder, opened the door and found myself rolling down a hill. i came up on one elbow from the prone position, fired one round at some guy putting handgun rounds into the cruiser while my partner was exchanging fire with another guy, the driver. he just, seemed to slip on ice and went down. it was later i discovered what i was even using, standard issue, well worn remington 870R. at that time, cool wouldn't have been a factor. a semi auto would have been better, its hard to pump in a new shell from the prone position. 2 3/4 in shell, double 00 buck, about 30 meters range

broken
August 9, 2010, 10:08 AM
an auto might have been better,still glad you had a trusty 870 by your side..just glad your safe and still here.

lloveless
October 14, 2010, 03:15 PM
I see people saying they like a folding stock on a shotgun. How about a telecoping stock instead?
ll

DRZinn
October 14, 2010, 04:04 PM
I have folding stock on mine, only for storage and transport purposes. A telescoping stock is better for shooting, if you're small-statured or wearing body armor.

Spec ops Grunt
October 20, 2010, 12:53 AM
What can I say, I love to put accessories on my Rifles, but can't bear to do it on my shotguns. Maybe pumpguns are just more aesthetically pleasing to me.

ElPasoWrangler
November 7, 2010, 02:19 PM
My new 982 Hawk is a Norinco 870 clone with ghost Ring sights. It seems like a well made 18.5 inch defensive shotgun. I am very pleased with it. It has eaten everything I have fed it with no problems. Simple, light and effective. 00 buck and rifled slugs intermixed.

ElPasoWrangler
November 11, 2010, 07:52 PM
My old Ithica side by side that served my Grandfather so well once used to bring home more dove and quail than than the fancier pumps and autos. I retired it when I got my 1100. My bird count kind of fell of for a while. Fastest limit for me on doves was withthe 1100 and under 30 minutes of pass shooting from under a cottonwood on the Rio Grande.

CasaVerdeDave
December 10, 2010, 11:42 PM
Who's got information on speed loading a double barrel for cowboy shootiong?

JSmith
December 14, 2010, 08:26 PM
My wife and I have a Mossberg 500 "Persuader" in 20 ga., 18.5: barrel (she won't even consider pulling the trigger on a 12 ga. and I think 20 ga. #3 buckshot is entirely adequate for HD distances, hence the 20.)

The first dozen times or so I had it at the range there was something not quite right about this gun - nothing wrong with it, it worked fine, but not quite right either. It's extremely light and thus has more recol than other 20s I've fired, and it's front-heavy which makes it more difficult to bring on target.

I was reinstalling the buttstock (the hollow, plastic buttstock) after the one time I tried the pistol grip, and a solution occurred to me. I removed the recoil pad and filled the buttstock up with BBs - almost 2 pounds of 'em.

Now it weight 7.5 pounds fully loaded, balances just in front of the trigger guard... and I have used trap guns that didn't come on target as quickly as this one now does. And the additional mass cut the recoil significantly.

I'm quite happy with it now, and that solution fits the ongoing theme of cheap and simple.

Mark8252
January 10, 2011, 08:42 PM
Personally I like the Taurus 5 shot 410 revolver in my dresser drawer. Loaded with #4 buck it will serve its purpose.

mattlove444
January 10, 2011, 09:10 PM
I've got two Winchester 1300s that work great. Slick and easy to use.

Pfletch83
January 11, 2011, 03:37 AM
I have a 1300 in 20 gauge (I've taken a few brushy tails with it over the years) one of the best shotguns I've ever shouldered.

I now have a mossberg 500 in .410 and I was wondering if someone could give me some help about having the barrel length cut down from 24 inches to around 18.5 or 19 inches (trying to double check my facts and be on the safe and legal side)

It's a vent rib and I would like to have the factory bead sights re-installed after being cut down.

The main reason for me having the barrel cut down is to remove the fixed full choke portion and leave it with a squared up cylinder bore (because I hate the idea of putting a slug through a full choked barrel)

matty-vb
April 8, 2011, 02:02 AM
anything I could add about the shotguns themselves has already been said I suppose. The surefire fore ends are great, but very pricey. If I may, I would point those on a budget to the streamlight TRL1 weapon light. although made for pistols (one sits on my issued G22), I gave one a try on a small picatinny rail on my 500 and it worked out great. very lightweight, with high quality LED power. no cords or wires to tangle or mess with the pump action. very rugged too. just my two pennies.

great thread btw....

jdmb03
April 10, 2011, 08:03 PM
I have a stock 870 20ga 7+1 that I use for my fighting shotgun. I shoot Federal #3 Buck. I found it to be too light because of the hollow synthetic stock so I filled the buttstock with fine density cat litter. It gives the gun the extra weight I need and helps tame recoil.

CanadianFreedom
May 16, 2011, 01:52 PM
Never mind strap on nonsense like pistol grips, or any other baloney that alters the weight and balance of the stock gun. Get a plain jane Mossberg 500 pump action and learn how to shoot the thing. You can't stop anyone with a pistol grip (the stupidest idea I have ever heard of). You can - and will - stop them in their tracks with the biggest baddest stopper of all...it's called shot placement.

Get your wannabee Rambo heads out of your butts and stop buying into the tactical bullcrap marketing nonsense. Get a dead stock Mossie 500 pump. Learn how to use it. Practice. And while I am at it...all you need to put a tunnel through a BG is a 20 gauge...anything bigger is simply unnecessary. Unnecessary recoil...unnecessary ammo expense...can't realistically be used by smaller members of your family...complete overkill. A 20 gauge will stop anyone in a home invasion scenario right square in their tracks.

If you don't believe me, come to my place, and stand 30 feet away (much longer than typical home defense scenarios) and contemplate your life evaporating while you listen to me work the slide of my 20, and point it at your sternum.

Only the coroner will be able to tell if you were capped with a 12 or a 20...once they finish putting all the parts back together...

DRZinn
May 16, 2011, 01:59 PM
Your screed against all accessories makes exactly as much sense as the people who over-accessorize. And is less polite.

I have a 12-gauge with a pistol grip, a flashlight, and a red-dot sight. Am I stupid? Please tell me why, since apparently I fail to understand why I don't need any of those things.

CanadianFreedom
May 16, 2011, 02:21 PM
Oh yes...I forgot! FYI....a 20 gauge shell in standard buck load has the ballistic impact of two .357 magnums...talk about a double tap through one tap...know anyone who is going to just "wade through" that kind of welcome?

I don't even use buck in my Mossie. bird only. I don't want to go to jail for the rest of my life...and anyone who thinks bird is anything but a solid stream of lead at 20-25 feet (still a relatively long distance in a home invasion scenario) is dreaming in technicolour...it is more than enough to put anyone down, on the spot. Enough for the job...unless, of course, my home is being invaded by Delta Force or JTF2...

And again, I invite anyone to field test the effectiveness of a 20 gauge with appropriate birdshot at 20-25 feet. Any volunteers? Unfortunately, I highly doubt you would be able to write a followup review...

mljdeckard
May 16, 2011, 02:25 PM
You speak opinion as if it were fact.

And we don't try to see whose is bigger on this forum.

Sam1911
May 16, 2011, 02:30 PM
come to my place, and stand 30 feet away (much longer than typical home defense scenarios) and contemplate your life evaporating while you listen to me work the slide of my 20, and point it at your sternum.

...

And again, I invite anyone to field test the effectiveness of a 20 gauge with appropriate birdshot at 20-25 feet. Any volunteers? Unfortunately, I highly doubt you would be able to write a followup review...
Please refrain from using the old "well I wouldn't want to be shot by one" argument. It really does nothing to inform the debate or sustain others' belief in your own objectivitiy.

CanadianFreedom
May 16, 2011, 02:31 PM
Zinn:

Can I ask you a question? Why do you feel you need a 12 gauge?

Pistol grips on shorguns are considered by most to hamper accuracy, not enhance it. Of course, I understand it's all about works for the individual...but sometimes I believe people just don't give stock guns their chance. Just practice with a stock shottie...to me, a pistol grip is completely unnecessary...

If you become disabled in a home invasion...can your 12 year old daughter shoot the 12 gauge? A 20 gauge can be shot by almost all members of your family...and isn't that important?

As for a light...I understand..........you want to see what's up, and who it is, before you shoot. I appreciate that sensibility...but it has one major drawback. You just advertised your exact location to a BG...who might just start shooting at the light, and therefore at you.

IF my home gets invaded - heaven forbid for any of us - we have a safe room...thats where we all go. Steel door, reinforced yadda yadda...cell phones etc...my wife calls 911, and we all hunker down and wait...me, my son, and my little girl have 20 gauges...this ain't the movies...it's real....why would I wander around the house if BGs are there? NFW, man. we retreat to our safe place, close the door, and work the slides...

mljdeckard
May 16, 2011, 02:33 PM
What if he's between you and the safe room? (And you talk about unnecessary frills on a shotgun.)

Sam1911
May 16, 2011, 02:48 PM
Not Zinn, but I'll take a shot:

Why do you feel you need a 12 gauge?Why not? Someone can die from a .22 bullet. Someone may not fall down when struck by a load of 00 Buck. Lots of variety in between and we don't get to specify what kind of gun fight we want to have.

Personally, I'd bet on a 20 ga being just dandy for home defense. But, if the reasons to choose one over a 12 don't apply to me, why not toss another few shot?

Pistol grips on shorguns are considered by most to hamper accuracy, not enhance it. Of course, I understand it's all about works for the individual...but sometimes I believe people just don't give stock guns their chance. Just practice with a stock shottie...to me, a pistol grip is completely unnecessary...No argument there. You'll find that you don't need to argue all that forcefully on that point 'round here. Your opinion is shared by many.

If you become disabled in a home invasion...can your 12 year old daughter shoot the 12 gauge? A 20 gauge can be shot by almost all members of your family...and isn't that important?Everyone's family is different. That may be important to some and not to others. Some 12 ga. guns are lighter recoiling with the same ammo than are some 20 ga. guns.

As for a light...I understand..........you want to see what's up, and who it is, before you shoot. I appreciate that sensibility...but it has one major drawback. You just advertised your exact location to a BG...who might just start shooting at the light, and therefore at you.We discuss this one a lot here. Proper use of a white light is NOT to turn it on and run around with it. That's certainly a bullet-magnet.

Proper use is something like, "flash, move, ... flash, move ... flash, SHOOT, move ..." etc. The dazzling effect of a very bright weapon light also can also momentarily disable the attacker allowing you a critical second or so to make that shot count. But, no it isn't a good idea to stand there like a lighthouse in the fog.

IF my home gets invaded - heaven forbid for any of us - we have a safe room...thats where we all go. Steel door, reinforced yadda yadda...cell phones etc...my wife calls 911, and we all hunker down and wait...me, my son, and my little girl have 20 gauges...this ain't the movies...it's real....why would I wander around the house if BGs are there? NFW, man. we retreat to our safe place, close the door, and work the slides... Certainly a very sound strategy. Make sure the stuff that matters is inside the perimeter and don't risk your life for the stuff that can be replaced.

DRZinn
May 16, 2011, 04:58 PM
Well, Sam made most of my points, but here goes anyway:

Pistol grip because I like it and it's more comfortable for me.
Flashlight to identify a target.
12 gauge because it's the biggest thing made mass-market. I don't have kids, and my wife can handle a 12.

mljdeckard
May 16, 2011, 07:35 PM
I don't have a problem with pistol grips on shotguns. but I won't use a pistol grip ONLY shotgun. Of course if they make guns so much more difficult to control and handle, we should stop using them on defensive rifles too.

I don't see any possible downside to using 12 gauge rather than 20. Even as a kid, I very rarely shot anything other than 12.

If you think a light is a bad thing, you need to learn to use one correctly.

DRZinn
May 17, 2011, 01:14 AM
Yeah, pistol grip only is useless for 99% of real-world shotgun applications.

fatcat4620
May 17, 2011, 05:56 PM
The day I finaly get that third arm surgically added I will take the light.off of my shotgun. (and its 12 gauge by the way)

RugerMcMarlin
May 17, 2011, 06:15 PM
My antisocial shotgun is a 870 express turkey, 24" screw in chokes, one bored saturday I bought an extended tube magazine for it, Perfect I thought, Now load it up, @#$%% thats heavy and slow, tape half a brick to your barrel and try it before you spend money on one. If I'm in a fight, I think I'll want it as light and magical as that perfect bird gun. I also have a Mossberg 835 with a turkey barrell that is kind of heavy but almost perfectly balanced, still pretty quick, and eats every thing. Currently working on a Franchi 20 ga auto /combat version project based on FIRSTEST WITH THE MOSTIST theory,I'll let you know how it turns out.

RugerMcMarlin
May 18, 2011, 12:57 AM
I've heard this pistol grip only is useless thing so many times, can anyone give me a why besides all the expert say so? I tend to think all it would require was practice. I mean if you can't afford enough shells to get proficient thats like a logical reason, lots of other firearms benefit from being more compact. Rifles are easier to hit with than handguns, but you can do amazing things with practice. Go ahead Tee up.

DRZinn
May 18, 2011, 01:10 AM
Very simple, really. Ya can't aim without a stock. Now, at bad breath distance practice can get you good enough to make a center-mass shot from the hip. Across a room? Down a hallway? Not so much.

RugerMcMarlin
May 18, 2011, 01:33 AM
Thanks Zinn, sounds like maybe it's based on personal experience. Not just what somebody told you. I think tho in the intrest of experimentation, and cause I want one any way, I'm going to get a mossberg 410 w/ pistol grip, I've been toying with the idea for a snake gun on our 4 wheeler. My buddys cabin is ratley snake central, Oklahoma. If you guys are all correct, maybe you can look forward to no more stupid questions from me. HEHE :D

DRZinn
May 18, 2011, 01:47 AM
Get a folding stock - best of both worlds.

kayak-man
May 18, 2011, 03:50 AM
I know tone doesn't carry over very well on the internet, so if I sound a bit snarky, its unintentional.

Get your wannabee Rambo heads out of your butts and stop buying into the tactical bullcrap marketing nonsense. Get a dead stock Mossie 500 pump. Learn how to use it. Practice. And while I am at it...all you need to put a tunnel through a BG is a 20 gauge...anything bigger is simply unnecessary. Unnecessary recoil...unnecessary ammo expense...can't realistically be used by smaller members of your family...complete overkill. A 20 gauge will stop anyone in a home invasion scenario right square in their tracks.

Good point.... except for a couple things:

1 - I'm assuming by "tactical nonsense" you're suggesting not mounting a light on your shotgun. I do not have a light mounted on my shotgun, but I think they are a good idea. In my state you have to identify the guy in your house for it to be a clean shoot, and having a light goes a long way towards that.

2 - 20 guage is usually more expensive than 12 guage. And its easier to find 12 guage shells. and the recoil isn't really all that bad. so really, I would say that if you can handle the recoil, theres no reason why you shouldn't have a twelve guage.

3 - I apreciate the invitation for me to come over and get shot at, but I think I'll pass. We try to avoid that kind of macho posturing here on THR. It doesn't really prove anything, and since no one is going to drive X miles just so you can shoot them, its kind of a moot point. Think about it - People wouldn't volunteer to get shot at with a 20Lb long bow or a pellet rifle, but that doesn't make those the best tools for home defence.

4 - I'm guessing you like Mossbergs a lot. Thats cool. I'm more of a Remington guy myself. :evil:

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

Sam1911
May 18, 2011, 07:15 AM
I've heard this pistol grip only is useless thing so many times, can anyone give me a why besides all the expert say so?

Your humble shotgun forum Moderator Dave McCracken wrote the definitive treatise on that subject back in 2003: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=44465

RugerMcMarlin
May 19, 2011, 04:28 PM
OK , Enough of this BS, I want to hear from someone who has actually shot someone, with a shotgun, what did did you find advantageous or limiting with your shotgun. Note I dont care why ,your motives are your own. Poppin Skinnys, Hadjis like that, Please dont start with "IN REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE",
have some of you been somewhere else?

Oh yeah, if 20 gauges were as effective as 12 gauges at ANYTHING we wouldn't have 12 gauges!

RugerMcMarlin
May 19, 2011, 06:24 PM
Sorry Everyone, Came out harsher than I intended. It is my opinion that anyone who has actually had to use a shotgun for defense or offense is doing their best to forget it. Probably not very intrested in sharing their thoughts and feeling either. I know some of you have been to gunsite or Clint Smiths deal, or maybe some law enforcement training , fine, that only makes you more qualified than me. Until you've limited out a few times, your not an expert.

Now you guys were having fun with this so I'll leave you to it.

Doxiedad
May 29, 2011, 11:32 PM
Is 24" barrel too long for home defense? 2 years ago I came across a good deal on a Benelli Super Nova for $300 new in box, couldn't pass it up since I had no shotgun at the time.

Since then I've been looking at the shorter 18" ones and thinking about trading my 24" for a shorter one.

Dave McCracken
May 30, 2011, 10:47 PM
IMO, no,D-Dad. If you shoot it well,stick to it.

You can try a test. Someone you know has a short barreled pump gun. Shoot a few drills with that and with yours. If scores and times are similar, no need to change.

RugerMcMarlin
June 2, 2011, 12:13 PM
DoDad, keep the 24", the 18" isn't threaded for chokes. You have a very versatile gun just the way it is. I'm a big fan of the super nova.:D

Doxiedad
June 2, 2011, 12:14 PM
Awesome, thanks for the replies

oldvet53
June 8, 2011, 04:45 PM
mine is a Mossberg 500 with synthetic furniture in 20ga. I have a 18.5" and a 26" ribbed with a screw in full choke so it is not only used as HD but can also be used in the field.

Capstick1
June 12, 2011, 12:22 PM
This subject is more controversial than the old .30-06 vs the .270 Winchester argument. Everybody seems to have different opinions about what makes or breaks the ideal fighting shotgun. Most of my shooting experience has been done at the trap and skeet range. Even when shooting trap and skeet aimed fire is still more effective than sustained fire. You just have to lead ahead of your target if it's moving. Forget about that "Aim in the general direction" nonsense. I also think pistol gripped shotguns are for mall ninja's and are a complete waste of time. Some of the familiarization and fundamentals you use in shotgun sports can be applied to the HD shotgun situation. I'm not going to say what type of action is best but I think if you do alot of skeet and trap shooting you should use a short barreled version of the gun your used to for Home defense.

RugerMcMarlin
June 13, 2011, 11:59 AM
Warning: Selection of the weapon of your choice is no longer,to be based on what you are comfortable with. It must first be voted on and ratified by a non-elected group, of self appointed experts. If it is deemed ineffective, any magical qualities it once had, will disappear. Those of you that do not possess the self confidence to select your own implement, will be victim of the latest fad. A commonly held notion ,based on what everyone else thinks is best, is a fad, whether its a group of teenagers, or a group of geriatrics.

andrewstorm
June 13, 2011, 11:29 PM
Will complain of my 1897 win 12 ga pump......second only to a browning machinegun.........:D

Nushif
June 14, 2011, 12:16 AM
You do know there was no Nazis in WWI .... Right?

Sam1911
June 14, 2011, 06:13 AM
You do know there was no Nazis in WWI .... Right?


It was satire ... hopefully.




Man, I hope it was satire. :uhoh:

Justin
June 15, 2011, 05:29 PM
Is 24" barrel too long for home defense?

I run a 24 inch Benelli M2 for 3 gun, and after getting used to the length, as well as forcing myself to actually drive the gun, I've found that it works fine.

In one of the previous threads dealing with PGO shotguns, I actually set up a dryfire course in my house that involved navigating through a few rooms and then dry-firing at a target at about ten feet.

I found that while the PGO shotgun felt faster, running the same drill multiple times with a shot timer and a par time, it was much faster with a fully-stocked, 24 inch shotgun than with a PGO shotgun.

Transitioning from low-ready to getting a "shot" on target was glacially slow with the PGO, and that's based on an assumption that a shot fired from the hip was an actual hit.

Doxiedad
June 17, 2011, 10:22 PM
Here is what mine looks like

http://www.proguns.com/images/benelli-nova.jpg

I guess I need to get more rounds through it. I think I've shot it like 6 times :(

I went to a local sporting goods store and they had a Nova Tactical 18" with ghost ring sights that I liked.

Wonder how hard it would be to put a light (for 4 legged bump in the night encounters) and the sights on it? All it has is a Fiber optic bead up front.

What's weird is now when I go to Benelli's website it doesn't show that configuration. It only shows the steady grip as a turkey gun with in Camo.

andrewstorm
July 21, 2011, 05:05 PM
Only the "Jerry's"(Hitler was there)of the trenches of WWI would complain of the 97,s advantage,as they did protest the using of the Winchester 97 pump 6 shot double ought,gave the Germans second thought,s:D also my grandfather left the black forest in 1914,at the direction of his boss (a German field marshal)for France ,because of political unrest of the soon to be Nazis,sadly after the field marshal helped him get to ellis island,he was drafted and sent to europe to fight against his friend,was awarded the purple heart,and became an american citizen.and returned to detroit .

Axel Larson
July 21, 2011, 05:28 PM
I have a Benelli Super nova tactical with pistol grip and ghost ring sight. No matter what people say pistol grips make the shotgun feel more comfortable, now I will not argue that having no pistol grip makes it come up on target faster but for throwing slugs down range the combination of ghost ring sights and a pistol grip;however, if I want a defense gun loaded with buckshot, I would take a pump action beaded sight and no pistol grip because it keeps it light wight and allows it to come on target fast.
Yet I will say use what you are comfortable with because that is what you will be best with.
Also I do not pretend to be a expert, this is just what I have found from shooting at the range.

OldCavSoldier
July 29, 2011, 05:57 PM
My current "fighting shotgun." And, is it ever SWEEEEEEEEEET!
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=146416&d=1311976426

chieftain
July 29, 2011, 06:01 PM
Picture ain't working.

Fred

MyGreenGuns
August 13, 2011, 07:03 AM
Wow. Just Wow. No further comment.

mdauben
August 13, 2011, 09:13 AM
I don't even use buck in my Mossie. bird only. I don't want to go to jail for the rest of my life...and anyone who thinks bird is anything but a solid stream of lead at 20-25 feet (still a relatively long distance in a home invasion scenario) is dreaming in technicolour...it is more than enough to put anyone down, on the spot.
Not really sure what birshot and jail have to do with each other? :confused:

I know a lot of people like the idea of bird shot for SD loads in shotguns. The thing is, all the evidence I have heard says you are wrong about its effectiveness. Anecdotal evidence from police and EMTs garnered on-line seems to say that birdshot tends to make bloody, but shallow and often non-incapacitating, wounds. Buckshot on the other hand penetrates much deeper and is much more likely to stop an attacker immediately.

Certainly any sort of "on line" evidence is subject to critical examination, but I have heard nothing except arm-chair opinion that bird shot is an effective SD round, while there seems to be plenty of real world evidence that it is not. ;)

straightshooter9
August 15, 2011, 10:53 PM
Personally, if and when the situation is serious enough that I actually need to SHOOT somebody, I'm shooting to KILL! :what:

A COP told me once that it's always better not having a "witness"!:cool:

but that's just me!.........:p

Sam1911
August 16, 2011, 07:11 AM
Personally, if and when the situation is serious enough that I actually need to SHOOT somebody, I'm shooting to KILL! Oh, please not this again!

Look, please remember, we are not executing anyone, we aren't judging them and sentencing them to death for their misdeeds. Causing the death of someone is not, under any circumstances in the US, a lawful GOAL of shooting. That would be murder, not a homicide (potentially) justified by necessity.

Their death -- or continued life -- is NOT a goal of our shooting, nor of consideration or consequence. We shoot SIMPLY and ENTIRELY to STOP the the immediate threat to our lives.

If the attacker runs away -- the threat is stopped.
If the attacker drops his weapon and surrenders -- the threat is stopped.
If the attacker falls down and stops moving -- the threat is stopped.
If the attacker drops, "dead-right-there," -- the threat is stopped.

At any point at which the threat is stopped -- we cease our lethal force response.

We choose our ammunition and our defensive weapons with the intent that they will be the most effective choice we could make to STOP THE THREAT.

Never let it be said that you chose any aspect of your defensive plan because it was more likely to KILL someone. You will be charged with murder. You are likely to be convicted of murder. And you probably should be.

A COP told me once that it's always better not having a "witness"!
That COP was advocating dangerously unlawful and unethical behavior, and is a disgrace to the uniform.

but that's just me!.........
Heavens, let us hope not!

straightshooter9
August 16, 2011, 09:37 AM
Mr Moderator.....

My spouse was murdered by someone that broke into my house 2 years ago when I wasn't home.......

you do whatever you feel you need to do and I'll LEGALLY do what I think is necessary within the confines of MY home!

As I've said before, if you don't want to get shot don't break into my house!
I live in FLORIDA with the "CASTLE" doctrine, so I have some leeway and RIGHTS to protect my home.

When the police in my town, MIAMI SHORES, tells me I can shoot someone as they crawl thru the broken window/door I would make that decision at that time.........I wasn't talking about shooting somebody in the back.

edited:
I'm certainly not advocating killing anyone without "just" cause.
But as far as "no witnesses", it makes sense to me........as was pointed out to me, rightfully so, the explanation, after the fact, will play an important roll as to innocence or guilt of either party.
Force is certainly justified to stop someone, even if the BG dies as a result of your action.

It's wrong to take someones life unnecessarily, but it may not affect someone that has been in a military conflict the same as a "civilian".
Taking anybody's life should be avoided if possible, but lets be honest here, shooting the BG in the chest with one shot of "00" will probably not only stop the BG but he may also "expire".

Sam1911
August 16, 2011, 03:47 PM
My spouse was murdered by someone that broke into my house 2 years ago when I wasn't home.......
That is tragic, and you have all of our condolences.

you do whatever you feel you need to do and I'll LEGALLY do what I think is necessary within the confines of MY home!Of course. I don't believe that we'd take different paths in the case of someone violently breaking into our homes.

However, that is not "shoot to kill" -- it is shoot to stop the threat. There is a difference, and it is an important one.

As I've said before, if you don't want to get shot don't break into my house!Certainly. That career choice does have risks.

I live in FLORIDA with the "CASTLE" doctrine, so I have some leeway and RIGHTS to protect my home.Yes indeed. It is important to understand exactly what that "leeway" and "rights" entails. "Shoot to kill" as a goal, isn't allowed by the castle doctrine, or any other law of the land.

When the police in my town, MIAMI SHORES, tells me I can shoot someone as they crawl thru the broken window/door I would make that decision at that time.........I wasn't talking about shooting somebody in the back.Again, though, the "I'm going to shoot to KILL -- no witnesses" line of discussion is NOT excused by those circumstances.

Someone crawling through your broken window or door, in a state with a castle doctrine provision, often would lower the threshold of the evidence you must present to prove that you needed to shoot.

It has nothing to do with your desire or intent to kill that person, either out of fear, revenge, nor out of a desire that they do not live to testify against you.

But as far as "no witnesses", it makes sense to me........as was pointed out to me, rightfully so, the explanation, after the fact, will play an important roll as to innocence or guilt of either party.
Having an attacker die may help you at trial, or it may not. That possibility is UTTERLY IRRELEVANT to the action you take in stopping their attack.

Acting with violence against someone for the reason of causing their death is murder.

Acting violently against someone out of last-ditch necessity to prevent them from hurting or killing you is (...well, can be...) justifiable self defense. See the difference there?

straightshooter9
August 16, 2011, 04:46 PM
Agreed! :)

sinisterevil01
August 16, 2011, 06:42 PM
any one here own a benelli nova or super nova

Dave McCracken
August 17, 2011, 02:26 PM
Sinister, go ahead and ask in a new thread.

sinisterevil01
August 17, 2011, 03:20 PM
not reall y sure how to work this website yet whats a new thread and when is it appropriate to comment on someones thoughts?

sinisterevil01
August 17, 2011, 03:29 PM
I do however agree with sam911 because if u are in a situation that requires a weapon of any kind the goal is to stop the immediate threat. Disarm and disable. But I will say this if it comes down to kill or be killed, well I guess that's a different thing all together.

jbg762
August 24, 2011, 02:51 PM
I don't care for shotguns for tactical use I think they're over rated. Home defense is another matter. A shotgun is fine for that. It's just my preference. I'm issued a 14.5" modified bore Rem 870 with rifle sights, sling, and Surefire light fore end. I've seen a guy shot broadside with a full load of reduced recoil 00 buck duty load. None of the 8 pellets even penetrated his shoulder through to the torso. For awhile I quit carrying it and only carried my issued M-16A1. Until I decided I wanted a shoulder gun up front with me in the roof rack, not just back in the trunk. So I started carrying it again. But I loaded it down with 1 oz reduced recoil slugs should I need to engage someone in a vehicle. I don't have a choice on ammo carried. If I did it would be 9 pellet full power 2 3/4 inch 00 Buck and full power 2 3/4 inch 1 oz rifled slugs.

jbg762
August 24, 2011, 02:58 PM
Well put Sam1911. I can tell you that if you are involved in a shooting you will be interviewed by the police. No matter how cut and dried justified the shooting was. And if you go in there spouting off lines like "shoot to kill" and "no witnesses" and crap like that you sure won't be helping yourself. Even if the shooting is 100% justified and you're not tried criminally all you're doing is hanging yourself in civil court. So if you're stupid enough to spout all that off to a criminal investigator you may want to just go ahead and exercise that 5th amendment.

straightshooter9
August 26, 2011, 06:58 PM
Well put Sam1911. I can tell you that if you are involved in a shooting you will be interviewed by the police. No matter how cut and dried justified the shooting was. And if you go in there spouting off lines like "shoot to kill" and "no witnesses" and crap like that you sure won't be helping yourself. Even if the shooting is 100% justified and you're not tried criminally all you're doing is hanging yourself in civil court. So if you're stupid enough to spout all that off to a criminal investigator you may want to just go ahead and exercise that 5th amendment.
I never said that I would tell the POLICE any of that!

Are you stupid (your word, not mine) enough to think that I would ever have a conversation like that with anybody after an incident ?!?

Sam1911
August 28, 2011, 09:52 PM
I never said that I would tell the POLICE any of that!

Are you stupid (your word, not mine) enough to think that I would ever have a conversation like that with anybody after an incident ?!?


You've said it here. Any statements you make, including on a public forum, may be admitted as evidence to establish your state of mind.

andrewstorm
September 1, 2011, 12:15 PM
just the sound of a pump gun deters criminals,announce your intention to meet force with force,if possible.

docnyt
September 1, 2011, 01:01 PM
just the sound of a pump gun deters criminals,announce your intention to meet force with force,if possible.

I wonder if this myth has had any anecdotal evidence to support it?

benzy2
September 2, 2011, 02:22 AM
Sam1911,

I think you are splitting hairs about the difference from "shoot to kill" and "shoot to stop" trying to make a point over a technical term. Let me ask you a question. Would you use different ammo for a home defense/offense shotgun if you were trying to kill the person rather than stop them? If not, then the only part of your correction that matters is if you would use this ammo once a threat had stopped. Otherwise, it's all the same and just a difference in the terms you use.

Last I saw, most people who picked defensive ammo to stop threats looked at penetration, shot size/count, and recoil to make their choice. When you look for ammo to stop someone as quick as possible it seems most people look for ammo that will reach vitals/cns, has as much chance to do so (pellet size and count) and has as quick follow up shot time as possible. Ammo used to kill would also look to reach vitals/cns, have as much chance to do so (size and count) and have quick follow up shots. There isn't a separation in ammo meant to kill and ammo meant to stop a threat because both look at the desired results the same. It's not like he said he wanted to shoot #9 bird shot soaked in AIDS to cause a long and suffering death. I think the point you are making is one only for the lawyers and has nothing to do with real life when a threat is in your home and you decide to pull the trigger.

You pick a round to quickly incapacitate someone. Typically this means shut down the CNS. Shutting down the CNS, without immediate medical care and often with immediate medical care, is fatal. You pick a round that you know to be deadly. When everything goes right with a fired shot, the end result is typically death. You accept that and use that as your ammo. You call it picking what "stops the threat" but you do so fully knowing that what stops the threat is also highly likely to kill. When you pull the trigger, aiming to stop the threat as quick as possible, you do so knowing that it is highly likely to kill the target. How is that different than aiming to kill? It's called lethal force. It's not called "stopping force". The difference is so we can feel better about ourselves at night and so the lawyers have something to argue about. When the trigger gets pulled in the time of a threat, there is no difference as both assume and accept that the round fired is going to end the life of the person on the other end.

Sam1911
September 2, 2011, 08:17 AM
I think you are splitting hairs about the difference from "shoot to kill" and "shoot to stop" trying to make a point over a technical term.
No, I'm not, actually, but you present a good opportunity to clarify.

What I said before was this:
Having an attacker die may help you at trial, or it may not. That possibility is UTTERLY IRRELEVANT to the action you take in stopping their attack.

Acting with violence against someone for the reason of causing their death is murder.

Acting violently against someone out of last-ditch necessity to prevent them from hurting or killing you is (...well, can be...) justifiable self defense. See the difference there?
Shooting someone is assault with a deadly weapon, or homicide. Those are crimes. In court, you will get the opportunity to plead your necessity of committing those crimes in order to save your life. The only legitimate reason you can give in order to explain why you broke society's laws against harming someone else is that you HAD to STOP them from doing what they were doing in order to save your own life, or the life of another, or to stop one of a very short list of other forcible felonies.

You did NOT have to kill them. They may die, and that is acceptable, but killing them is not your goal. If killing them IS your goal, then that is murder. Even if they have done or are doing something incredibly awful to you and yours, you may not attack them out of a desire to end their life. If their life needs to be ended in recompense for what they've done, that is for society to decide after a jury trial. ALL you may do is shoot until they stop their current, immediate, harmful actions.

Let me ask you a question. Would you use different ammo ...SNIP... Otherwise, it's all the same and just a difference in the terms you use.Of course not. I think you're getting mixed up in the difference between mechanics and intent. The most effective ammo to STOP someone generally is also that most likely to do the most damage to their body and therefore the most likely to kill them. However, killing them is not your intent. Stopping them is your intent.

The difference is most often, and disastrously clearly, shown in cases where defenders move distinctly from shooting to stop to shooting with intent to kill -- as in the Jerome Ersland case. A man attacked in his own business who ends up with a life sentence because he took his counter attack beyond a reasonable intent to stop an assault and into the realm of executing those who had attempted to harm him.

Last I saw, most people who picked defensive ammo to stop threats looked at penetration, shot size/count, and recoil to make their choice...Yes, of course, and again you are stuck in the mechanics of lethal force and not thinking about intent and how intent can drive your actions.

I think the point you are making is one only for the lawyers and has nothing to do with real life when a threat is in your home and you decide to pull the trigger.Here we understand that "tools" are the least important part of the lethal force equation, below "skills" and definitely below "mindset." We're working on a mindset issue here and it is important that as armed citizens we understand exactly what our mindset should be. Killing someone is irrelevant. STOPPING their violent act is the critical -- in fact the ONLY -- reason why we may draw a weapon and/or pull a trigger.

It certainly is a distinction "for the lawyers." And what the lawyers and judges and jurors will say about your intents and actions will affect the rest of your life (ask Jerome Ersland). You have to know and understand WHAT you may do and WHY, or you are likely to lose the life of freedom that you're planning so diligently to be prepared to save.

You call it picking what "stops the threat" but you do so fully knowing that what stops the threat is also highly likely to kill. When you pull the trigger, aiming to stop the threat as quick as possible, you do so knowing that it is highly likely to kill the target. How is that different than aiming to kill?Are we clearer on this now? Shooting with the intent to kill is unlawful murder. Depending on how things play out, an intent to kill someone may drive you to make decisions and actions that are utterly beyond legal justification. Shooting with the intent to stop is (well, it MAY be) lawfully justified use of force, and keeping that goal -- STOPPING THE THREAT -- firmly in your mind is the key to using lethal force in a lawfully justifiable way.

We want to win the gunfight. We also want our actions to be lawful and proper. Which guiding principle your mindset is keyed to is critical to making that be the case.

bassdogs
September 2, 2011, 10:06 AM
Think I get your point about "stop" vs "kill. With that said, isn't the term "lethal force" imply a force or action that could in fact kill? No I don't think your splitting hairs, but maybe are parsing words that the courts may in fact use against you. I live in Ky and I am in my rights to use lethal force to defend myself if I believe that I am facing a immediate threat to my life or the probabiity of serious bodily harm. The key word in the Ky self defense law is "believe". In the aftermath of a shooting, as long as I reasonably believed a threat to be present I am protected even if there was in fact no real threat [ie the gun was actually a cell phone]. In the end, lethal force is deadly force.

No I didn't pull the trigger to kill the bad guy but as the instructor in my CCW class said, "shoot until your are out of ammo, only in the movies do they shoot a couple of rounds and stop to see if the bad guy is down or ready to surrender".

Your are accurate I think to say "stopping" vs "killing" was your intent when interviewed by the police, but unless you went up to the quivering body and fired a couple of kill shots; I do not believe the police or the court is going to parse the language in deciding to prosecute or to convict.

Sam1911
September 2, 2011, 11:19 AM
Think I get your point about "stop" vs "kill. With that said, isn't the term "lethal force" imply a force or action that could in fact kill?
COULD kill. And that is, as I already said, one possible result of the shooting that would be acceptable in a justified shooting. But 85% of gunshot victims survive. So shooting to KILL, in more than 8 out of 10 lethal encounters, would necessarily involve quite a bit more than exercise of force than is reasonably necessary to stop the threat. That is force that would be unlawful and would probably result in the rest of your life spent in prison for murder, or manslaughter at least.

No I don't think your splitting hairs, but maybe are parsing words that the courts may in fact use against you.Actually, I'm trying hard to help us move beyond using phrases and mindsets that the court absolutely WILL consider in a negative light. I'm trying to clarify how it is that someone MAY lawfully use lethal force, and the fine lines of distinction regarding when/why they may not.

I live in Ky and I am in my rights to use lethal force to defend myself if I believe that I am facing a immediate threat to my life or the probability of serious bodily harm. The key word in the Ky self defense law is "believe". In the aftermath of a shooting, as long as I reasonably believed a threat to be present I am protected even if there was in fact no real threat [ie the gun was actually a cell phone].Well, sort of. Another fine-line distinction: Your defense of "self-defense" won't be judged on what you believed. The jury cannot know what was actually in your head at the time. You will be judged on the "reasonable man" standard. In other words, given the information you had at the time you drew and shot, does the jury believe that you had a reasonable fear for your life, compelling enough to necessitate the violent response you made?

In the end, lethal force is deadly force.Lethal force carries the possibility of resultant death. Death is not the goal, nor even the most common result. Pursuing DEATH will lead you into severe trouble.

No I didn't pull the trigger to kill the bad guy but as the instructor in my CCW class said, "shoot until your are out of ammo, only in the movies do they shoot a couple of rounds and stop to see if the bad guy is down or ready to surrender". Err...kind of. In many cases, a defender will indeed pull the trigger as fast and as many times as he/she can until the gun goes "click." But, that is NOT a conscious effort you should be gearing up to employ. Again, if your actions pass clearly beyond what was needed to end the threat, you (almost certainly) WILL be prosecuted and probably convicted of a crime. Jerome Ersland is a terribly good example of this.

Testifying (or having others testify for/against you) in court that, "The guy fell down, but I had a few bullets left, and my CCW instructor said to shoot until the gun was empty, so I put six more in him..." is going to end your life as you know it.

Unfortunately, CCW instructors, gun shop guys, internet denizens, and even cops often give very bad advice when trying to explain self-defense issues. It's a very good idea to continue your education far beyond those sort of "lowest-common-denominator" resources. That is a real, serious, part of why we're sometimes so strict here on THR at keeping our discussions relevant, realistic, and strictly lawful. So much misinformation and bad advice out there -- and the suffering experienced by folks who swallow too much from the wrong source is very real.

Your are accurate I think to say "stopping" vs "killing" was your intent when interviewed by the police, but unless you went up to the quivering body and fired a couple of kill shots; I do not believe the police or the court is going to parse the language in deciding to prosecute or to convict.It depends on so very many things. What did you really do in the moment? What evidence can you bring to support your self-defense claim? And, very unfortunately for some folks, what can the prosecution discover from your acquaintances, and your published words (hint: on-line forums!) that speak to your mindset.

(After all, it ISN'T black-and-white. The prosecution has to sway a jury that your self-defense claim isn't supported by the evidense. If they can instill in the jury's minds that you were looking to punish, to kill, to destroy -- not simply to stop an attack -- you may be in for a very rough ride.)

Plan correctly -- get your head straight about what you are REALLY doing when you reach for your gun -- and you may avoid some horrific consequences.

straightshooter9
September 2, 2011, 11:29 AM
Current September issue of AMERICAN RIFLEMAN in "the armed citizen" article shows 6 different scenarios of homeowners shooting and killing SIX "unarmed" burglars with no legal issue. One homeowner shot a burglar in the head after breaking a window while the burglar was still OUTSIDE the house.

In another instance, the homeowner "QUOTE" ....confronted two prowlers lurking inside his detached garage, drew his handgun, told them not to move, but suddenly the desperate men charged. The homeowner made quick work of the criminals, opening fire and connecting each shot. One suspect fell dead. The other lay wounded.... "UNQUOTE".
So in this instance, who are the police going to believe that the burglars "charged"??? The unarmed burglars OR the homeowner???? Looks like the police believed the homeowner.

I'm fortunate to live in one of the most "friendly" NRA states with a "Castle" Doctrine.
I really would not want to kill someone, but again, (having served in the ARMY) I wouldn't hesitate to aim "00" at their chest to stop them..........I have that "right" in Florida to protect my life and property. :cool:

And bassdogs is correct about the word "believe"........FLORIDA is the same. There was an incident in South Florida of "road rage" when a driver approached another driver sitting in his car
who reached "under" his seat, the first driver thought he was reaching for a gun, he pulled his own weapon and shot the driver in the head. It DID go to trial, he was found NOT GUILTY
because he "believed" his life was in danger, even though NO gun was found on the victim.

Sam1911
September 2, 2011, 01:14 PM
So in this instance, who are the police going to believe that the burglars "charged"??? The unarmed burglars OR the homeowner???? Looks like the police believed the homeowner.Yup, and that's a very good outcome. But the police didn't ONLY believe the homeowner. The evidence at the scene (and there is ALWAYS evidence) backed up his story.

And bassdogs is correct about the word "believe"........FLORIDA is the same. ... he was found NOT GUILTY because he "believed" his life was in danger, even though NO gun was found on the victim.

Again, a subtle distinction: What he really believed wasn't the deciding factor. His defense counsel submitted to the jury the collection of information he had access to at the time and asked them to decide that such a belief and response was reasonable in that circumstance. Very fortunately, they did agree that whatever knowledge or information he had at that moment would lead a reasonable person to believe their life was in danger.

You may believe with all your heart that someone is about to kill you with some weapon. If the jury does not buy that your belief was reasonable, your self-defense justification will be rejected.

As we say a lot here, what YOU think about the shooting really won't make much difference. Pull a gun, and pull a trigger, and your future WILL be decided by others. Maybe in agreement with your beliefs. Maybe not.

bassdogs
September 2, 2011, 10:53 PM
You see to be on a mission with this thread. If you lived in Ky, Ga, and apparently Fl, there apparently is a seriously different SD law than in your home state. There are obvious cases like saying you believed a 95 year old lady in a wheelchair, asleep in the park as you approached posed a life threatening danger to you so you shot her 12 times having to reload your revolver to finish the defense, THAT YOU WOULD MOST CERTAINLY BE PROSECUTED. However the word "believe" is in fact written into the Ky law. In addition under the castle rule, any person entering your home uninvited is by statute assumed to be a threat and you do not need to warn or otherwise confront the intruder before opening fire. Now before you launch another point by point response, go on line and read the Ky self defense law. The Ga law is even more friendly to someone defending them self.

I think we all get your point that if you go around threatening to "kill" any one who remotely gets in your face with a scowl on their face;will certainly get you a life behind bars if you are involved in a questionable shooting. I must respectively disagree that shooting until you are out of bullets is some how an aggressive act. Many LE training procedures teach exactly that and many actual police shootings involve what the public may see as excessive force. The number of bullets fired is not the issue, but rather [at least where some of us live] it is the sequence of events that might render an incident a prosecutable. Again the obvious walking up seconds after the initial shooting and administering a point blank kill shot would be a crime no matter where you live. The purpose of using lethal force is [as you correctly state] is to stop the threat. It is not to disable or wound the BG in a manner that would render him no longer a threat. Multiple shots to center mass from a proper self defense weapon, will most likely end in the death of the BG. The incidents that you quote must involve all kinds of shootings and involve a high percentage of untrained individuals.

If you believe stopping vs killing is an important distinction, then since this is America, you are entitled to your opinion. Some will disagree, and we are entitled to our opinion.

Kliegl
September 2, 2011, 11:04 PM
To add to that, some people are only concerned with legal vs illegal, and others are only concerned with right vs wrong. With the sad state of the justice system in our country, with the revolving doors of justice, and repeat offenders being out just months later, doing what they do all over again, a reasonable thought would be to make sure the offender never has the chance to do it again.

Owen Sparks
September 2, 2011, 11:21 PM
I live in a state with a very strong castle doctrine. If I shoot an intruder in my home, not only will there be no charges filed against me but the intruder or his survivors are prohibited by law from filing suit against me in civil court. There is also no “duty to retreat” meaning that if I am any place that I have a legal right to be, I can stand my ground and use deadly force rather than retreat if threatened with bodily harm. My vehicle is also considered an extension of my home and anything that is legal in my home, knife, club, pistol, shotgun or loaded AR is legal in my vehicle.

bassdogs
September 3, 2011, 09:32 AM
OS - Not aware of what state you live in, but Ky has pretty much the exact same language in their SD law. Key is "reasonably believe" that a threat existed will protect you from prosecution. The law even states that LE may follow ordinary procedures to investigate the shooting, but you are presumed to be exempt under the law unless evidence contradicts your explanation. And like you say, Ky law has an immunity clause protecting you from prosecution or liability in a civil case if the shooting is justified. It even contains language granting recovery of legal costs, lost wages, and other damages if a civil case is brought in the case of a justified shooting.There is no argument that over the top behavior will most certainly attract prosecution, the presumption of innocence is provided to a shooter unless there is evidence at the scene to contradict your story.

Sam I said I get your point, and I do. But you are lecturing on the finer distinctions of terminology and laws do differ from state to state. Your reference about getting our information from "lower common denominator" sources [or something to that effect] is an insult to CC instructors, LE officers, and gun dealers and furthermore placing yourself as the "higher"
authority is at best overly self indulgent. I'm sure you are speaking from an educated point of view and I'm not questioning that. Just thinking that your status as moderator does not elevate you to the level of "I'm right and you're wrong".

Sam1911
September 3, 2011, 10:10 AM
You see to be on a mission with this thread.
Lets say that some of us here are on a mission with this FORUM.
To provide a more complete understanding of how the laws pertaining to self-defense work.

If you lived in Ky, Ga, and apparently Fl, there apparently is a seriously different SD law than in your home state.Much of this is nearly universal, state-to-state. The methods by which evidence is submitted and legal arguments are made, and juries are informed, etc, work more or less similarly. The text of each law is important, but so is case law precedent, and understanding how "self-defense" pleas really work.

However the word "believe" is in fact written into the Ky law.
Of course! I'm not arguing that it isn't. I'm explaining that what you did or didn't believe isn't the final arbiter of guilt or innocence. You'll get the chance to tell the jury what you believed, certainly. But the judge doesn't say, "Well folks, that's what he believed, CASE CLOSED! Let's go for tacos!" :) No, the jury is going to consider all the evidence and decide if they believe your account and if they believe that what you say you saw and heard would have lead a reasonable person (each of the jurors, really) to make the same reaction.

Maybe it is a fine point, but folks do sometimes like to stand on the assurance that, because the law says "believed," that the case really does hinge on their own beliefs and testimony. In actuality, once you pull the trigger (or even pull the gun), the decisions about your future lie entirely with what others believe about what happened.

In addition under the castle rule, any person entering your home uninvited is by statute assumed to be a threat and you do not need to warn or otherwise confront the intruder before opening fire. Now before you launch another point by point response, go on line and read the Ky self defense law. The Ga law is even more friendly to someone defending them self.

Ok! Here it is:
KRS 503.080 Protection of Property (Castle Doctrine)

(1) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when the defendant believes that such force is immediately necessary to prevent:

(a) The commission of criminal trespass, robbery, burglary, or other felony involving the use of force, ...

(2) The use of deadly physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable under subsection (1) only when the defendant believes that the person against whom such force is used is:

(b) Committing or attempting to commit a burglary, robbery, or other felony involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055, of such dwelling; or

(c) Committing or attempting to commit arson of a dwelling or other building in his possession.

(3) A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

There's that word "believe." Good!

Let me back up and review a point. You may not go to trial. There is always the possibility that the police and D/A look at the evidence that is plainly obvious and decide that there is no reason to argue that you did not meet the standards for self-defense justification -- and those standards include the "Castle Doctrine" law.

IF the case gets to trial, though, something has gone wrong. Something about what you believe or claim does not add up in the investigators' eyes. At that point, how reasonable your beliefs were and your response was hang entirely in the judgment of 12 fair and impartial folks sitting on your jury.

You say all you have to do is believe that these things were the case. I'm pointing out that that is not true. IF it gets to a trial, the reasonableness of your beliefs is already under question and you will have to defend them and convince those who hold your fate.

I think we all get your point that if you go around threatening to "kill" any one who remotely gets in your face with a scowl on their face;will certainly get you a life behind bars if you are involved in a questionable shooting.Well, I don't remember where I said that, but all debates must have some groundlines of agreement from which to work -- so I completely concur.

I must respectively disagree that shooting until you are out of bullets is some how an aggressive act.I did not say that. I actually said that many folks in real-life situations DO just that. But I said that advising someone that they should PLAN on that, and actively follow up on it if they have a conscious choice is really bad practice on the part of an instructor. Someone who does NOT shoot the gun dry for whatever reason should never be encouraged to go ahead and empty it for "safety's sake" or whatever. That is very often how self-defense turns into manslaughter -- when someone actively pursues an attacker beyond a reasonable breaking off of hostilities. We hear this kind of stuff frequently: "Make sure he's down!" "Make sure he's dead!" "Don't want any witnesses!" "Don't leave a hostile witness for your trial." Etc.

You may not be intending such absurd (and illegal!) overstatements, but it is a close step away from, "shoot until your gun is empty," to "make sure he goes down and STAYS down!" and so forth.

Many LE training procedures teach exactly that
Now it's my turn to respectfully disagree. Which police trainers teach shoot the gun dry? Tactically it is a horrible idea unless you must. What about multiple attackers?

The purpose of using lethal force is [as you correctly state] is to stop the threat. It is not to disable or wound the BG in a manner that would render him no longer a threat.I think we're in agreement here. I'll restate: Shoot to stop the attack. The death or wounding of an attacker is really irrelevant (neither good nor bad) so long as the attack is stopped. If the attacker dies, falls incapacitated, surrenders, flees, or disappears in a puff of magic smoke, really doesn't matter. The attack has stopped. The justifiable violent response has to stop as well.

Multiple shots to center mass from a proper self defense weapon, will most likely end in the death of the BG. The incidents that you quote must involve all kinds of shootings and involve a high percentage of untrained individuals.Again, "most likely" is not the case. MOST -- an overwhelming majority plus a bunch -- of gun shot victims survive. Obviously, death is not the goal, nor the most common outcome. Pursuing death -- having the death of an attacker as your plan, goal, desire -- is not a wise or productive path.

Sam1911
September 3, 2011, 10:18 AM
To add to that, some people are only concerned with legal vs illegal, and others are only concerned with right vs wrong.Those "only" concerned with what their own limited understanding and judgment tell them are "right" and "wrong" are likely to end up at the mercy of what the rest of society believes is legal and illegal.

... make sure the offender never has the chance to do it again. Those who take capital judgment of another into their own hands deserve the fate the "sad" justice system will deliver on them. Justice and punishment are meted out by society -- never by the individual. That's been part of our rule of laws for millennia.

Sam1911
September 3, 2011, 10:35 AM
I live in a state with a very strong castle doctrine. If I shoot an intruder in my home, not only will there be no charges filed against me ...You may believe this, and the text of the law may lead you to think that. But even a "strong castle doctrine" does not eliminate the requirement that the investigating officers must establish that you did meet the standards for justifiable self-defense as informed by the C.D. law, among others. You may understand this already and maybe i'm belaboring the point, but you absolutely can be prosecuted for shooting "an intruder" in your home. We all breathe a sigh of relief when a state passes a "castle doctrine" law -- but it is no carte blanche to open fire on anyone who appears in your home unexpectedly. And when someone says, "there WILL BE NO charges filed" -- that's not a good thing.

Your reference about getting our information from "lower common denominator" sources [or something to that effect] is an insult to CC instructors, LE officers, and gun dealers Insult? Well, I don't mean to insult, but the point is absolutely true. Law enforcement officers are universally horrible sources of self-defense understanding. They don't generally know the laws beyond the few that they deal with daily and have a very different set of rules and conditions for how they deal with violence than a non-officer does. We have read many MANY accounts of law enforcement officers giving out completely contrary and illegal advice. It happens -- often.

Gun dealers are legendary for giving out some of the most laughable advice (on any subject, but especially self-defense). That really seems to go without saying.

CCW instructors are a hugely mixed lot. You've got some guys like Mas Ayoob, Marty Hayes, Tom Givens, and their type who are REALLY awesome at teaching things folks absolutely should know. Then there are a large number of instructors who teach the various courses required by the individual states which must cover the laws, and they can be good or questionable, depending on how well they stick to the "script" and what exactly the "script" covers. And then there are the rest -- mostly well-meaning folks who teach the firearms qualification type courses for the states, or hang out their shingle on their own and teach pretty much whatever the think they know. We hear reports all the time of instructors (like yours) who throw in little bon mots of "wisdom" like "shoot until your gun's empty" or actually do suggest that executing a bad guy is just fine, or encourage any number of other really cringe-worthy errors. You've really got to know who's doing the teaching, what their understanding is, and then evaluate everything you hear against the best legal understanding you have access to.

and furthermore placing yourself as the "higher" authority is at best overly self indulgent. I'm sure you are speaking from an educated point of view and I'm not questioning that. Just thinking that your status as moderator does not elevate you to the level of "I'm right and you're wrong". All I know, I've learned from others. Some of those "others" are here in this forum. I'm always learning new things. I certainly have no authority beyond these (virtual) walls, so I present my arguments to stand on their own virtues, as do you.

Mike1234567
September 3, 2011, 11:00 AM
I could never be a Moderator because so much arguing with no basis in reality would drive me completely insane. I don't know how some of you Mods keep a cool head and just keep posting the same things over and over again to try and educate others and (hopefully) keep them out of trouble. My hat's off to you all.

My fighting (self-defense) shotgun is a Saiga .410 because, in the short distance I might need to use it, I think a .410 with an extra mag (20 rounds total) is all I'll ever need. I also have a .45 ACP pistol and a carbine to keep any persistent threats at bay.

Kliegl
September 3, 2011, 11:16 AM
Sam, with as much respect as I can muster, justice has been meted out by the individual for millenia, the justice by organized society is the new thing, not the other way around.

The right thing to do when someone invades your home is to kill him. It is the moral thing to do, as it benefits society to keep multiple law abiding, good people alive, and criminals dead. I can debate philosophy rather well, if you care to partake.

The legal thing to do in the above situation is to stop him. Fortunately, people realize that the best way to do that is with firearms, and there is a good chance stopping might result in the criminal's death.

However, it is only prudent to wish that, of the three sides to the story, your side, his side, and the truth, only two are heard. Obviously, if you can avoid shooting someone, DO SO. It is never a good idea to shoot when there is another option. However, shooting to wound, because you are afraid of the legal ramifications of killing someone, is a very bad thing. It's dangerous for you, and ALL shots with a weapon COULD be lethal, like a deliberate leg shot could hit the femoral artery, and that's lethal.

If one must shoot, one must shoot to end the threat, and that is to shoot the best way modern doctrine teaches it, which is center mass. No one will blame you for being scared and making sure the threat is stopped, but everyone will blame you for further shots after the threat has ended. I believe the general metric is shoot until threatening behavior is stopped by the criminal. That could be he dies, he runs away with one GSW, or he falls down, is still alive, and gives up then.

The prudent thing to do would be for you to call 911, then your lawyer, and cover the bad guy until the law arrives.

Mike1234567
September 3, 2011, 11:31 AM
Sam didn't say "shoot to wound" and he never has that I'm aware of. He said shoot to "stop the threat" and once the threat is stopped then "cease deadly force". He also said it's criminal to "intentionally kill someone". With all due respect, what is so difficult to understand? Just accept his friendly "legal advice" for what it is. If you must kill an attacker then you'll know WHAT NOT TO SAY.

bassdogs
September 3, 2011, 11:47 AM
One last comment. First its good to see that you did google up the ky law abeit only a part of it. On several occasions, you mention what a jury will evaluate or what the jury will believe. The case will never get to a jury if after LE completes the review of the facts, the evidence finds nothing to shed doubt on your claim of "reasonable believe". You might have read [but left out of your summary of ky law] that you can not be arrested, retained against your will, or prosecuted unless evidence found during an investigation raises doubt about your claim. The police chief [my CCW instructor] and my county Sheriff have explained the nuiances of the law to me personally and these are the individuals who would be responsible for any investigation. I don't doubt that the choice of words that you want us to use are the right way to go. I do however think that both sides of this argument have gotten totally off topic which I think is about fighting shotguns.

With that I will move on to other discussions.

straightshooter9
September 18, 2011, 09:31 PM
Relating to "fighting Shotguns"..............
Locally last week, not far from where I live, a homeowner shot two unarmed BG's as one entered a window and the other was outside behind the first.

One is critical, the other wounded, both arrested, homeowner was not charged. Police stated the homeowner was "protecting life & property",
no charges against him, wasn't even taken downtown for questioning.

The homeowners "choice of weapon"?
12ga PUMP.........another win for the "good" guys!
I don't ever remember anyone charged for shooting a BG in this town.

ElectrikKoolAid
September 20, 2011, 07:35 AM
How did a (sticky) thread "on fighting shotguns" get so deep into Castle Doctrine issues?

Mike1234567
September 20, 2011, 10:04 AM
How did a (sticky) thread "on fighting shotguns" get so deep into Castle Doctrine issues?
It's just the nature of discussion.

two gun charlie
November 8, 2011, 10:14 AM
Dave I was wondering what shotgun the U.S military prefers ?

Sam1911
November 8, 2011, 10:38 AM
These days the US military is using the Mossberg 590/590A1 and the Benneli M4, mostly, but there are others still in the inventory.

Creature
November 8, 2011, 10:57 AM
Every Navy ship I have served on was equipped with 870's.

steveracer
November 8, 2011, 11:58 AM
M500 shotgun is the official nomenclature of our shotguns. They are basically M590s with 14.5" barrels and bead sights. Parked finish with scratches all over them, and the occaisional badly dented muzzle.

Dave McCracken
November 8, 2011, 04:36 PM
Charlie, Mossbergm 590 A1s and Benelli M4s are the official issue shotguns, but there's a lot of others in use. I've seen 870s, 37s and 500s in the news.

HTH....

two gun charlie
November 10, 2011, 02:06 PM
@ dave , if you had to choose between mossberg and winchester shotguns which would you prefer? as a fighting shotgun off course.
I recently had a winchester in my hands , I forgot the model but it had a remarkebly smooth action.

Dave McCracken
November 10, 2011, 03:05 PM
Mossberg, but the difference is minuscule.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 10, 2011, 03:37 PM
Any kind really that passes their specifications. The known shotguns in use today are the Remington 870, Mossberg 500/590 and the Benelli M1014.

frayluisfan
December 17, 2011, 02:28 PM
Two fast questions about home defense shotguns.

1. Has anyone done any sort of testing on birdshot? I know the penetration is not the same as buck shot or slugs, and bird would not be my first choice, but up close (less than 10 yards, or across the typical living room) it's nothing to sneeze at. I tested it just out of curiosity, and found that at about 5 yards, it'll blow a 2x4 into several pieces. At the same range, penetration in 1-gallon milk jugs filled with water was comparable to several HP pistol rounds I tested (9mm, 10mm), plus of course the payload is several times heavier. Before you torch me, notice please that I've said it's not as good as buck/slug loads, and that I'm talking about under 10 yards. Has anyone else performed similar tests?

2. How do you guys practice reloads? Do you use snap caps? Do they weigh the same as regular ammo? Do you use something else? I'm thinking of doing a 3-gun match this spring, and am not sure how do practice shotgun reloads.

Thanks!

frayluisfan

Sam1911
December 17, 2011, 02:42 PM
Has anyone done any sort of testing on birdshot?

Exactly what you wanted to see: http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958&start=0

Sam1911
December 17, 2011, 02:45 PM
How do you guys practice reloads? Do you use snap caps? Do they weigh the same as regular ammo? Do you use something else? I'm thinking of doing a 3-gun match this spring, and am not sure how do practice shotgun reloads.You can use snap-caps, but I don't know of any that have the weight to be exactly the same. But that really shouldn't matter much.

Or, when you're out practicing shooting, you're always practicing reloads as well.

frayluisfan
December 17, 2011, 03:05 PM
Sam,

Thanks for the link to the fascinating post on shotgun load testing. I've not seen anything like it before. Just spent several minutes perusing it, and I know I'll be coming back to it in the future.

Thanks again,
frayluisfan

chieftain
December 17, 2011, 05:23 PM
I know of no agency or any unit, in the world that will use or recommends using anything less than Buck shot for combat purposes.

Can bird shot create terrible wounds, of course. So can the 22LR. But neither is a reliable stopping round.

The part of home defense weapons that most folks, that have never fired a shot in anger, do not understand, is that at cross room ranges (read that as, "CLOSE RANGE" OR CQB), the assurance of an effective hit, if and when you hit the VCA, is critically MORE IMPORTANT, not less. That is why with notable exception, using a handgun in HD as a primary defense weapon, makes no valid sense at all. The closer you will be when you can start shooting in self defense, the MORE long arms are required, not less, regardless of the space available.

If you believe avoiding over penetration is the primary mission, I strongly recommend a baseball bat or something of that ilk. I am serious. The Baseball bat makes for a very effective HD weapon. Very effective when aimed well, doesn't run out of ammunition, and doesn't threaten the neighbors (Remember to use in a hostile gun environment or when protecting the Neighbors from over penetration is the primary mission). Practice with it in one of the many effective Martial arts systems.

If stopping the VCA before you or your loved ones are injured, is your primary purpose, use buckshot or Slugs in the shotgun. I choose to use #1 buck or heavier for my HD shotty's per FBI recommendations. AS for Slugs, my own opinion is that there is nothing a slug can do that a rifle cannot do better, faster, and more effectively up to 30+ times in a row. It is also usually, with notable exception, lighter and shorter too.

My personal application of shotguns is only in the Home Defense mode, inside/indoors. If I cross that threshold and go outside, I want a properly set up rifle/carbine of which I have many.

Remember only you have to answer for your choices, not the rest of us.

Good luck, and may you never have to find out if your gear and plans work.

Fred

Fred Fuller
December 18, 2011, 04:01 PM
More shotgun gel tests - http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page399.htm

Practice reloads with live ammo only on the range where it's safe to shoot. Elsewhere use action proving dummies, available by the box of 5 or 25 from Brownells, or if you or a friend reloads, make up some dummy shells of your own clearly marked as such with dead primers, sawdust, grits etc, substituted for powder, a normal wad and load of shot, and a hot glued crimp. NEVER have any live ammo in the same room with you when you are practicing with dummy rounds.

There are several methods of combat reloading a shotgun, find one that works for you and stick with it.

frayluisfan
December 20, 2011, 12:27 AM
Thanks to Lee for the info on the dummies from Brownells. Appreciate your advice.

melt
December 25, 2011, 04:13 PM
a recently acquired JC Higgins Model 20, 12 gauge. I actually bought two because the price was too good to pass up.

Both came with a PowerPac choke system and one was damaged and wasn't worth trying to repair so I recently took it to my gunsmith to cut the barrel.

My go to gun was a Remington Model 11 Riot dated 1912. It's a solid amalgamation of steel and walnut...

Dave McCracken
December 26, 2011, 02:16 PM
Melt, either of those guns will suffice. Now, train until you're not the weakest link.

We focus on hardware, but it's the software that wins or loses.....

melt
December 26, 2011, 02:47 PM
I should have posted my reply in the topic "first shotgun"...

chieftain
December 26, 2011, 02:52 PM
We focus on hardware, but it's the software that wins or loses.....

BINGO!

About fighting, finer words have never been spoken.

Doesn't matter gun fighting, aircraft dog fights, naval encounters, tank battle, or warfare in general..... The above statement is it.

Or as Col John Boyd put it:


MINDSET - SKILLSET - TOOLSET - IN THAT ORDER! OODA
-- COL John Boyd, USAF


Good luck, and Happy New Year to all.

Fred

destinyshaven
December 29, 2011, 09:41 PM
Does anyone know the value of a Striker 12 Shotgun this is my home defence weapon.

Sam1911
December 29, 2011, 10:19 PM
Does anyone know the value of a Striker 12 Shotgun this is my home defense weapon.

They generally go for a few thousand as they're rare oddballs, and classified as NFA Title II Destructive Devices. If you practice well to run that strange gun, you may do as well with it as with a normal shotgun, though its bulk would be a drawback.

Some folks feel that using Title II firearms in self-defense roles opens you up to legal risks. Others are concerned about losing a valuable and rare gun to the police evidence locker in the case that it is actually used in a defensive shooting.

Most folks would say that you would be just as well defended with a $300 Remington 870 or 11-87, but if you can run your Striker 12 faster and more accurately than a more common Title I pump or autoloader, then it may serve you well.

Jaymo
December 31, 2011, 08:07 PM
Mossberg, Remington, Stevens, Ithaca, Winchester. As long as it's fast and reliable to a fault, it will do what you need for HD.
I like the Saiga shotguns but can't afford one.

My wife's HD shotgun is a Mossberg Home Security .410 pump loaded with 3" 000 buck loads.
Mine are an IGA 12 gauge deluxe coach gun (nicer wood finish, recoil pad, and choke tubes), and a Mossberg 9200A1 Jungle Gun.

What was that line about a handgun only being good for getting you back to the longarm you never should have set down in the first place?

I have to respectfully disagree about shotgun slugs not doing anything a rifle won't do.
If you've ever shot deer or hogs with .223, 7.62x39, and 12/20 gauge Brenneke slugs you know what I mean.
Within 100 yards, the slug does a LOT more damage. BIG holes in and out.
I love rifles and pistols, but the shotgun is the king of home defense. And for good reason. It is extremely effective.
ARs and AKs look cool and are lots of fun to shoot, but they are one of the last guns I would grab for indoor self protection.

chieftain
January 1, 2012, 03:38 AM
I have to respectfully disagree about shotgun slugs not doing anything a rifle won't do.

If you've ever shot deer or hogs with .223, 7.62x39, and 12/20 gauge Brenneke slugs you know what I mean.

Depends entirely on which bullets you use in the rifles. There is a reason that Police and agency SWAT teams no longer use the shotgun for much other than breaching anymore.

The Rifle is MORE effective at neutralizing the target, much faster rate of fire in semi auto (I am NOT talking about full Auto or three shot bursts either), more firepower, lighter, and vastly superior to handle particularly indoors. Less penetration of walls too, yup.


Within 100 yards, the slug does a LOT more damage. BIG holes in and out.

Both rifles you mention, with proper bullets will do much more damage INSIDE the target than any shotgun with slugs would dream of. The down side of the slug is that same as the pistol bullet, the temporary wound IS not very effective for wounding purposes, and only the permanent wound channel is the effective wounding mechanism. Think velocity here, or rather lack of.


I love rifles and pistols, but the shotgun is the king of home defense. And for good reason. It is extremely effective.
ARs and AKs look cool and are lots of fun to shoot, but they are one of the last guns I would grab for indoor self protection.

Doctor Gary Roberts, the leading Terminal ballistics researcher in the United States today, disagrees with you. Doc has a lot more science and research to make his decisions and recommendations, my own edge is actual combat experience, 58 years of hunting, competition (both rifle and pistol/revolver), and of course grins and giggles

.http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44869

By the way, I do not consider the shotgun slug a bad choice in self defense, much better than ANY fighting handgun caliber. I just know it ain’t magic, and why folks who do this for a living, when in side a house, choose rifles and carbines, not shotguns to fight with. And those that do use shotguns are almost exclusively loaded with heavy Buck shot.

Remember my family, friends and I are the only one’s who must live or die with my selections, no one else.

Good luck and Happy New Year.

Fred

skeptical_in_Ohio
January 19, 2012, 03:08 AM
Hi all-

I've read this thread with interest. I'd like to put together an inexpensive, functional HD shotgun, something along the lines of what this blog post recommends...http://carteach0.blogspot.com/2009/02/remington-870-built-for-home-defense.html - just a short barrel with a Uncle Mike's neoprene shell holder on the stock. To this I might also add a tube-mounted flashlight.

My HD philsophy is fairly simple - I'm not going around looking for the BG inside the house. All the bedrooms are upstairs; in the event of something going bump or crash downstairs, after a headcount (wife, kids) while making the 911 call I'd take up a low position at the top of the stairs behind the short wall there and wait for the cavalry (hopefully) or the BG to attempt to come upstairs (the point where things in my mind have moved from stealing stuff which can be replaced to endangering my family which can't).

I currently own Remington 870s (one 12 and one 20 gauge) which have seen very light use (breaking in, shooting at clays some, etc.). I keep #3 buck for the 20 and 00 buck for the 12. I'd probably set the 12 up for the HD. Both are fairly new and therefore reliable.

At first I thought I'd just buy an 18" barrel for the 12 and swap barrels back and forth depending on present need - to shoot clays, the 30"; otherwise the HD barrel. However, the lowest price I have found for the HD barrel is at CTD for roughly $110 plus shipping, which gets very close to that which one might pay for a used WesternField (apparently a Mossberg 500 clone), a used Mossberg 500 or perhaps a new NEF Pardner already set up as a HD shotgun that even has an extended tube and 18" barrel. Obviously the used ones would need the barrel cut and a sight put on - I can do the former but might outsource the whole thing to a smith. Both used or new dedicated firearms would eliminate the need to swap barrels often, a convenience that is worth a something.

So - which way would you all advise? All opinions welcome; some will be acted upon. Thanks.

Fred Fuller
January 19, 2012, 10:26 AM
Dave,

Buy the extra barrel, not a different shotgun, even for almost the same money. It's far better IMHO to have a familiar shotgun in hand in an emergency, than a different gun with different control locations. Your "chops" are already set for the 870, don't mess with success.

I've found good used 18 - 20" 870 barrels at good prices in gun stores, the Accessories For Sale/Trade forum here or at similar forums, from discounters like CDNN or the Remington Country Store, etc. Last barrel I bought was a 20" 20 gauge rifled barrel with factory rifle sights for $100 to experiment with (use only smoothbore barrels for HD, though), the one before that was an 18" CYL bore bead sight 12 gauge barrel with the epoxy-on BigDot tritium sight in place for only $60 (about what the sight itself costs) over at TFL about a year ago.

skeptical_in_Ohio
January 19, 2012, 11:41 AM
Thanks for the input; this is sound advice and you have effectively eliminated the Mossy and/or clones of same (different setup than the 870). The Pardner Protector (NEF) is an 870 clone (as I understand it). Would there be any prudence to checking this one out since all of the controls are in the same place and the price is so close to the 870 barrel? Thanks again.

Fred Fuller
January 19, 2012, 03:27 PM
Dave,

I've been experimenting with the clones for a couple of years now, with the Pardners being the latest of the bunch. So far I like the Pardner pumps a lot. Of course, it'll be another 40 years or so before I'll really know if they are as durable as the originals, and I doubt I'll last long enough to find out for myself. :D

The most recent Pardner I bought in like new used condition is propped in the corner behind me right now. I've put on a Streamlight magazine tube mount light rail (#69903, IIRC) for a detachable weaponlight - there's a TLR-1 LED on the way to go on it. And I ordered a 4-round Sidesaddle for it too. I had to straighten out the forearm a little bit, it wasn't centered well and was rubbing on the left side of the barrel. But that only took a couple of minutes and was no problem. Other than that, everything seems good to go with it. I field stripped it and gave it a good cleaning when I got it, there was still factory shipping preservative in it. After enough time on the range, it is likely to take its place as one of the 'house guns' here - the rest are all 870s of various types and vintages. And that's as good an endorsement as anything gets.

Dave McCracken
January 19, 2012, 06:52 PM
Like Lee said.

skeptical_in_Ohio
January 19, 2012, 08:36 PM
And I'm rapidly learning why Lee gets listened too...

On the Pardner Pump, here's a review that made me think it might be a good choice. I'm not in a huge hurry, so I have the luxury of thinking it all the way through...

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/12/ralph/gun-review-hr-1871-pardner-pump-protector-12-gauge/

Thanks for the insights.

Dave

skeptical_in_Ohio
January 20, 2012, 12:49 PM
In the end, I went with Lee's original advice - found (finally) a barrel that wasn't within $50 of the delivered & FFL transfer fee price of an entire NEF/H&R/Whatever they're naming it Pardner Protector.

I'll put the 18" barrel on my 870 12-gauge, along with one of those buttstock shell holder sleves from Allen. 00 Buck will be the load.

I might get a light and a bracket later, once I figure out and get comfortable with the new kit.

The long barrel will be cleaned, oiled and kept in a sleeve to be brought out from time to time to shoot at clays.

Thanks everybody for the advice (especially Lee).

Fred Fuller
January 21, 2012, 10:50 AM
Hope it works out like you want it to, Dave. And I hope you never need it.

But get used to using it under pressure, just in case you ever need to. If you can swing a full blown shotgun class, Louis Awerbuck is still the shotgun Yoda as far as I'm concerned. Randy Cain is very good, as is Clint Smith, John Farnam and Tom Givens. The thing about shotgun guys is that there are a lot of local instructors who can teach a very creditable class on running a defensive shotgun, who will never have the national/international reputation that short list has. But finding out about the local guys is more difficult. With the short list folks, there's no doubt what you are getting, and most of them travel and teach classes all over the country.

Stay Safe,

lpl

Highgate
March 7, 2012, 07:56 AM
Hi,

I'm in the UK where we can have a maximum SG mag capacity of TWO cartridges i.e. three total.

I only shoot foxes, to protect the chickens on our small farm.

Guns are almost banned here but I obtained a shotgun licence about two years ago.

I bought a 870 12 ga pump action and an A5 Browning 3" magnum 12 ga semi-auto. Both full choke with 28" barrels.

I soon learned a few things:

* slings are a pain

* heavy guns such as the A5 are a pain

* you need to go out into the field in rain and gloom for an hour or so at a time to REALLY find how the gun suits you

* autos & pump actions are essentially unsafe - I now see why they are banned from public shooting sites in the UK ... double barrels only permitted.

* Autos are fussy about ammo - they sulk and jam at the first opportunity

* Foxes are FAST and cunning - in my orchard you need to be holding the gun up, cocked and loaded with the safety off to have any chance of a good shot. A very tiring posture to maintain as you walk around!

* Crossing fences with loaded shotguns can be dangerous

* An unloaded weapon CAN in fact be loaded!

* You need to find a brand and size of ammo that suits you and your gun - and stick to it! Buy it by the case!

* Add-ons might seem cool & useful - but the only add-on I have kept is an ammo saddle ... don't forget that we have just two shots in the mag here.

* 00 buckshot is too lethal for UK field use - the pattern fails early so you miss the target but the lethal lumps of lead keep going on and on ...

* You can adapt to heavy recoil - but it takes weeks rather than minutes or hours

Summary: I started off with magnum-itis and gadget-itis. A typical male techie approach to a new hobby!

However I now simply use the 870, no sling, always loaded with 42 gr US BB semi-magnum (hard to find in the UK - we have different pellet sizes).
Good knockdown, large number of pellets, long range, short unfired case so I can fit two in the mag ... but killer recoil.

I simply practice a lot so I whatever I aim at I can usually hit.

I started off pining for a black plastic quasi-military supergun firing 65 gram tungsten loads ... but some real life experience has shown me that practising a lot in the dark, cold & wet (the UK!) with a plain 870 firing a big handful of BB is a far more realistic route.

Dave McCracken
March 7, 2012, 04:23 PM
Thanks for posting Highgate. I was stationed in Essex for a while in the 60s. I comprehend "dark,cold and wet".

A couple things about your few things.....

Autos and Pumps are NOT inherently unsafe, but they do require more training and attention.

Foxes in the UK, unless they all have gone on Steroids since I was last there, run elss than 10 lbs. Before I'd use those loads, I'd go with something like 1 1/4 oz of 4s.

And A5s are great for when you do not have to carry them a lot.

Highgate
March 8, 2012, 05:02 AM
>> Foxes in the UK, unless they all have gone on Steroids since I was last there, run less than 10 lbs. Before I'd use those loads, I'd go with something like 1 1/4 oz of 4s.

I'm really a rifle shooter but I can't face the legal paperwork needed to get a licence in the UK ... the shotgun licence application is stringent enough!

I think that this has made me keener on the bigger evil cartridges with full choke rather than the 'normal' cartridges.

I have tried all sorts of cartridges sizes and loads - but I only started having fun when I discovered semi-magnums!

A lot of farmers around here seem to favour the SAGA 2.75" semi-magnum 44g in a US size which must be close to #4 ... maybe a tad heavier. The recoil is also heavy with this one - but it certainly does the business!

I started with the excellent SAGA round, but I finally settled on the US BB size for a variety of techie reasons :
* A UK study on shooting foxes showed that the UK BB (US #1) was a tad too weak and the UK AAA (#T) had too few pellets. The US BB fits fight in between those two sizes.
* The US BB has a surprisingly long range.
* US BB comes in star crimp cases so I can fit two in the UK restricted capacity magazine. AAA (#T) only comes in a longer RTO case so only one will fit in the mag.
* US BB can be loaded up to around 44g in a 2.75" case - but AAA (#T) is limited to 36g due to pellet packing issues.
* I have done some computer analysis which shows that US BB lies at the optimum point where penetration and pattern fail together. Any bigger, and the pattern fails but the pellets are still dangerous. Any smaller and the pellets run out of steam before the pattern fails.

Based on my research I then imported some US BB into the UK. To be frank I expected to be disappointed - practice never lives up to the theory.

However in this case I was very surprised to find that US BB suits my needs 110%. Long range, heavy knockdown, accurate (after much practice).

The downsides? A bit expensive, plastic wads, heavy recoil, rather high chamber pressures. I have now got used to the heavy recoil so I can shoot straight without flinching ... but the recoil broke the receiver mechanism of a single barrel I was using.

In a different legal world I would use a rifle - but this shotgun combination is the closest I can get to having serious shooting fun!

(I have tried 50gm UK BB in a 3" magnum ... not good : the pattern failed spectacularly. The 'boom' is however impressively stupendous! I might stupidly consider taking a 2.75" shot without ear defenders ... but a 3" magnum? No way!)

jump
March 8, 2012, 07:42 PM
Someone a little while ago wanted to know what kicks gobbling thunder to use shooting 5's 665 works great with 5's

Dave McCracken
March 8, 2012, 09:10 PM
This thread IS about fighting shotguns. Please post a new thread further down....

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 8, 2012, 09:52 PM
I no longer have a shotgun. It was my fighting/HD/zombies/whatever but I felt as though a rifle would do everything I would want a shotgun to do but more. I'm just not a shotgun guy really.

bassdogs
March 9, 2012, 09:54 AM
What ever floats your boat. If you are a rifle guy, I say what the hey! Personally I don't see the use for an AR or AK in anything but a ZHtF Zombie attack. My simple 870 tactical meets all my needs; firepower, knockdown power, varity of ammo choices, multi uses, cost to own and shoot.

My vote is the 870 but have to throw in for all the simple, basic, short barrel pumps. Only your ego needs anything more.

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 9, 2012, 03:02 PM
5.56 and 5.45 penetrate less walls then buckshot so it certainly has a valid use in Home Defense. I'll get another 870 and 1100 someday but that day is not today.

Highgate
March 9, 2012, 03:26 PM
Personally I don't see the use for an AR or AKMy .... simple 870 tactical meets all my needs; firepower, knockdown power, .... Only your ego needs anything more.
Interesting point. A few years back I saw a post on a survivalist board, where all sorts of exotic firearms were being discussed.

One poster then said something like "Hey, I have just an 870 with 400 rounds of 00 buckshot. If I need to fire that many I'll be dead anyway."

A fairly valid point? If you need more than a couple of shots from a shotgun when TSHTF then maybe you should be thinking of hiding or running?

No individual can expect to defeat a truckload of armed gangsters ... even if the defender has the latest wizzo rifle available.

armoredman
March 9, 2012, 03:41 PM
I will join the shotgun owning world next week. I will be using a CZ 712 Utility autoloader with extended mag and ALS adjustable stock. I haven't owned a shotgun in YEARS, so this will be interesting to say the least. After watching the new generation of 712 go through a few thousand rounds without a glitch in testing with Tom Knapp, I feel confident it will work well as HD and maybe even 3 gun if I can EVER find a match close by. Reviews and pics posted when it get's into my hot little hands. :)

spaniel
April 29, 2012, 10:12 PM
I'm still curious why pumps and semi-autos are inherently unsafe....

bassdogs
April 30, 2012, 10:18 AM
They aren't, but maybe some of the shooters are because they are too focused on multi shots. Not a fan of auto loaders, but whatever floats your boat on that one. A pump is only going to cycle one shell until you rack another round. The typical OU is just like an auto, 2 trigger pulls and 2 shots, so I'm thinking the UK has this one wrong.

My 870 18" now carries 2 #4 buck followed by 5 OO buck with whatever I feel like in the stock sleeve. Main practice is the quick cycle motion and the reload after a couple of rounds. The point of aim is pretty much a no brainer at 25 yards or less.

azgun
April 30, 2012, 09:15 PM
The best recipe in my opinion is reliable, fast, 18"-20", decent light, and 6-8 capacity, bead sight, pump action

lobo9er
May 4, 2012, 02:27 PM
..................................../////////////////////////////////

memphismark
May 16, 2012, 01:53 PM
Fighting shotguns with all the TackyCool stuff bolted on them are kind of neat looking.

But then you got to figure some old man with a 6-7 pound bird or skeet gun is twice as fast.
And several times more likely to get the first shots on target.

rcmodel
That's an interesting point. I do keep 2 birdshot shells in my 2 side saddles to 'compliment' my 00 buck. memphismark

Telekinesis
May 16, 2012, 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by rcmodel View Post
Fighting shotguns with all the TackyCool stuff bolted on them are kind of neat looking.

But then you got to figure some old man with a 6-7 pound bird or skeet gun is twice as fast.
And several times more likely to get the first shots on target.

rcmodel
That's an interesting point. I do keep 2 birdshot shells in my 2 side saddles to 'compliment' my 00 buck. memphismark

I don't think that's what he meant. I could be wrong, but I believe that rcmodel also advocates the use of some arrangement of buckshot/slugs for HD. What rc probably meant was that the guy who spends years shooting at moving targets every weekend is going to be a much better shooter regardless of what gun he has when compared to a guy who spends all his money on cool looking junk to hang on his gun.

Kinda why I think if the zombie apocalypse ever does come, the safest place would be at a trap/skeet range with a bunch of ATA shooters. They always have a lot of ammo on hand and when you're used to hitting small 6" disks flying on their side at 45 mph, headshots are easy.

Bird shot in a HD shotgun is a liability unless your expected intruder is winged, feathered, and has webbed feet.

IMTHDUKE
May 16, 2012, 10:47 PM
Have the Stoeger Double Defense coach sxs 12ga with ported barrels and light on rail. Has green fiber optic sight. Have the Mossberg 930spx coming next week. That should hold down the fort till John Wayne arrives/;)

PabloJ
May 21, 2012, 12:33 AM
Every Navy ship I have served on was equipped with 870's.
The 16ga Ithaca 37 'Deerslayer' is perfect all around gun. It would make fine deer shotgun, skeet gun, grouse gun and riot gun. Now you too know the secret.

Sniper 51
May 25, 2012, 03:21 PM
Dave M.

Just recently purchased an Ithaca 37 featherweight, very rough but at the gunsmith now. He says internally it's gonna make a nice one. It's an older model with the slam fire feature. I have an 870 with 2 barrels, one being 20 inches. My question, What is your recommendation for this 26 inch barrel. Should I leave it alone or cut it down? I'm thinking it might be a little long for a fighting shotgun but wonder if I will regret just cutting it off.
Sniper 51

Dave McCracken
May 27, 2012, 01:52 PM
It's a whole 1.5" longer than the legal Fed minimum.

One of my HD 870s has a 20" barrel. Works very, very well.

Contrary to a lot of Netmyth, a shotgun's effectiveness has little to do with OA length.

A 20" barreled vintage 37 strikes me as a nigh perfect HD tool...

FruitCake
May 29, 2012, 06:37 PM
I ended up putting all kinds of junk on my 870 for like 1 month. Side saddle +6 and +2 extension. Ended up taking all that junk off. The thing turned into a tank and just took the fun out of shotgunning.
Its all back to original except a little mount for a light and sling.

It took me learning the hardway but i did.
Guess im just hardheaded but i had to experience it for myself.

winfried
August 4, 2012, 02:27 PM
Everything discussed except effectiveness. Shot guns were made to shoot birds, and for the birds they are. Shotguns do NOT knock anybody over. That is for the movies.

Regards

WAH

stevolene
August 12, 2012, 02:17 AM
"Everything discussed except effectiveness. Shot guns were made to shoot birds, and for the birds they are. Shotguns do NOT knock anybody over. That is for the movies."

actually this isnt true, I have a brother in law that was ripped open by a shotgun blast, been dead a few years now

allaroundhunter
August 12, 2012, 02:21 AM
Everything discussed except effectiveness. Shot guns were made to shoot birds, and for the birds they are. Shotguns do NOT knock anybody over. That is for the movies.

Regards

WAH

Except for those unfortunate enough to be hit by more powerful rounds.... Slugs? 00 buckshot? I assure you, shotguns are plenty effective in a defensive role against 2-legged creatures. Anyone to suggest otherwise is a fool.

Sent from my HTC One X

lefteyedom
August 12, 2012, 03:17 AM
I do not have the time to read all 17 pages of post in this tread. That said let me be bold enough to throw a little gas on the fire...

If you get a chance to go see one of the Bodies Revealed displays please do. Short of a college gross anatomy class it is the best lesson in shot placement. The real human plastic-ed bodies are an eye opener for those have have a had the good fortune not to see human carnage with their own eyes.

The human body is a wonderful thing, but it is not as rugged as one would think by reading ammo/gun reviews. Sure there anomalies but as a whole humans are not hard to disable/kill.

If you put an 7/8 oz of Shotgun shot into the chest cavity of a human at 15 feet the odds are in your favor that you will be the last man/woman standing.


I am currently preparing a Mossberg 500, 20 gauge for a lady friend of mine. The barrel has been shorten to 20", the stock shorten and good recoil pad installed. Total cost? $220.00

She can not operate her 9mm pistol due to a physical aliment, this weapon will allow her to sleep at easy again. The plus is she get a "kick" out of shoot Milk jug with a shotgun.:evil:

One_Jackal
August 12, 2012, 01:42 PM
One thing that annoys me to no end is the urban myth that buckshot perform better with a full choke. Yet every official test I have read about and every informal test I have done cylinder/improved cylinder chokes out perform a full choke every time. Full chokes deform large buckshot commonly used in home defense. Try a pizza box at 40 yards. You will see the full choke has way more flyers.

allaroundhunter
August 12, 2012, 01:44 PM
One thing that annoys me to no end is the urban myth that buckshot perform better with a full choke. Yet every official test and every informal test I have done cylinder/improved cylinder chokes out perform a full choke every time. Full chokes deform large buckshot commonly used in home defense. Try a pizza box at 40 yards. You will see the full choke has way more flyers.

But saying that a full choke always has flyers is also false. Patterning your home defense shotgun is like sighting in a rifle. Find the right load/choke combo and stick with it.

Sent from my HTC One X

riflefan
August 14, 2012, 01:48 PM
In response to lefteyedoms post about the Mossberg. My only current shotgun is a youth model 500c in 20ga. I replaced the original stock with one that has a pistol grip, it has a 20" barrel standard. I use this for everything, skeet, rodents, deer "at times" and keep #3 buck in it beside the bed. I think your lady friend should be quiet pleased. Having the pistol grip helps me have a little better control. The gun is very easy to handle and if 5 shots of #3 buck can't stop them I have a real problem.

winfried
August 14, 2012, 04:57 PM
Oh yes, at 5m a shotgun is effective, but not neccessarily instantly. Unlike many others here, this fool speak of own experiences, but I do not think it appriate that I should give details here publically.
Tell me in private mail of your own experience and I will probably be able to match your experience case by case.

I am not interested what anybody has read. But one case I would like to mention.
When we had the bush war on, army intelligence wanted a cornered terrorist alive. He got shot at with a Mossberg 12 G pump loaded with AAA. We had a chance to shoot him with proper rifles.The terry got away and is still laughing to this day. Everybody wanted to know how is that possible, I told them "shotguns are for the birds".

Except for slugs, I always refer to shotgun ballistics as confetti ballistics.

Regards

Winfried

Youngster
August 14, 2012, 05:23 PM
I respect your experiences, but a case where birdshot was used tells you little about the effectiveness of buckshot.

allaroundhunter
August 14, 2012, 06:36 PM
I respect your experiences, but a case where birdshot was used tells you little about the effectiveness of buckshot.

Youngster, AAA, is the English measurement equivalent of T-shot. Not quite as effective as 00 Buck, but not necessarily birdshot either. If I was issued a shotgun for military use, however, I most certainly would not want to be issued T/AAA sized shot.

If you are trying to keep someone from escaping, it doesn't make sense to try to use a shotgun in the first place though, regardless of shot size; it is too imprecise. A rifle would have been much more appropriate with a shot to the leg and then allowing the medic to tend to the combatant after capturing him.

Sent from my HTC One X

Youngster
August 14, 2012, 07:19 PM
Even #4 buckshot is reportedly pretty inconsistant as an antipersonel load, it's 00 and the other large buckshot size that gave the shotgun its reputation as being an effective close quarters combat weapon.

Erik M
August 15, 2012, 03:13 AM
I have owned several scatter guns over the years, all with bead sights. I recently purchased a Rem 1100 that came equipped with a barrel that had rifle sights. To my surprise I am more comfortable and more accurate with it.

winfried
August 16, 2012, 04:04 PM
I do not have the time to read all 17 pages of post in this tread. That said let me be bold enough to throw a little gas on the fire...

If you get a chance to go see one of the Bodies Revealed displays please do. Short of a college gross anatomy class it is the best lesson in shot placement. The real human plastic-ed bodies are an eye opener for those have have a had the good fortune not to see human carnage with their own eyes.

The human body is a wonderful thing, but it is not as rugged as one would think by reading ammo/gun reviews. Sure there anomalies but as a whole humans are not hard to disable/kill.

If you put an 7/8 oz of Shotgun shot into the chest cavity of a human at 15 feet the odds are in your favor that you will be the last man/woman standing.


I am currently preparing a Mossberg 500, 20 gauge for a lady friend of mine. The barrel has been shorten to 20", the stock shorten and good recoil pad installed. Total cost? $220.00

She can not operate her 9mm pistol due to a physical aliment, this weapon will allow her to sleep at easy again. The plus is she get a "kick" out of shoot Milk jug with a shotgun.:evil:
The problem with is that LG loaded with 6 or 9 pellets in 12 gage produces the weirdest
patterns. At 20m you could be lucky or unlucky to hit somebody, never mind flyers.
Somebody cited the weight of the shot as a measure to effectiveness.
This is incorrect. The impact of any projectile is always less than
the recoil felt by the operator. (With exception of the Gyrojet long
forgotten).
If one builds a ballistic pendulum of 60kg and shoots into it with a
30-06 or a 12 bore shotgun, the pendulum swing is 95 and 104mm only.
To give it one slight push with a finger, the pendulum moves 450mm. So
as far as weight is concerned, an index finger is more deadly than a
12 bore. One can do it also much easier mathematically. Recoil energy
is another useless figure as it changes wirth the weight of the weapon
and is no indication the amount of recoil produced by a cartridge.

Regards

Winfried

pezo
September 1, 2012, 09:41 PM
AAA ?? Isn't that a battery size? 12 pellet magnum buck would produce a nasty wound on an assailant rest assured, in addition to slugs particulary hard cast and even standard buck. The shotgun is an awsome defense weapon. God bless america!

PabloJ
September 3, 2012, 02:09 PM
Twelve gauge Magnum buckshot load is good for nothing except perhaps blowing off doors of hinges. It's pretty awful anti-personnel load.

bomberbill357
September 3, 2012, 03:46 PM
Wow! This is a long thread. Lot's of terrific information. Don't forget 3 Gun as apractical way to get proficient. Remember: it's a game, take a good course of instruction on a regular basis.
As far as Tacticool, I have a mossberg 590 and I can not for the life of me "improve it". It's just perfect for me the way it is. Everything I tried to hang on it, now sits in a locker, while the 590 sits in the bd closet.
Thanks again for the excellent info!

allaroundhunter
September 3, 2012, 04:15 PM
Don't forget 3 Gun as apractical way to get proficient. Remember: it's a game, take a good course of instruction on a regular basis.

I would not say that 3-gun is a practical way to train for combat shotgun techniques. Ammunition used is low recoiling (usually birdshot), and it is all about speed and rarely makes competitors consider the tactical advantage. Will it help with reloading? Maybe, but the shell holders that they use are not ever used or recommended by combat instructors.

The best way is to take combat/defensive shotgun courses. They will do much more to help with "fighting shotgun" skills than 3-gun.

mharveyww1
October 20, 2012, 04:59 AM
With respect to Wllifred: You are, of course, correct. A shotgun blast is not going to send anyone tumbling backwards (or even knocked down, necessarily).

But a well placed load of 00 or slug will stop just about anyone - every time.

Uncle Sam once gave me a free vacation to that garden spot of SE Asia known as South Viet Nam. While enjoying the sights and the ambience, I had occasion to carry a Remington 870 and an M-14. I never felt under-served with either.

It was not a pleasant experience, but the practical use of the 870 left absolutely no doubt as to its's capabilities. I never had to use more than one round per target.

The shotgun, of course is for CQB. It will certainly not replace a good rifle for all-around versatility.

On a side note: I think it's interesting that the US military is bringing back the M-14. I was not a sniper, but we were using the slogan "one shot - one kill" to describe the '14' long before it became popular with the stealthy guys.

Forgetting all of the 'teething problems" the M-16 had when first in service, it was still a pretty good "stopper" (when it worked). Now, from what I hear from guys back from Iraq and Afghanistan is that even a 3-round burst to center-of-mass won't always do the job...the bad guys just keep on going!
The reason is that we got "politically correct" with the M-16's ammunition a few years back...redesigned it, and it no longer tumbles like it used to (causing MASSIVE wounds).
Now, it just goes right on through like a needle.

OK, I'm way off topic and I apologize for rambling. But, to wrap up the shotgun comment: I currently have an 870 with an extended magazine, pistol grip, tritium night sights, a 6-round sidesaddle and a Knox Stock (which practically eliminates muzzle rise and reduces felt recoil to about that of a 20 ga.). To say that I feel confident it will provide all the home defense I need is a vast understatement. Shotguns are not JUST for birds! :)

Mike

IMTHDUKE
October 20, 2012, 08:27 AM
Mike

Good post....brings back those old memories...Nam 67-68....Semper Fi.

chieftain
October 20, 2012, 08:23 PM
Mike, Duke, welcome home brothers. 67,68,69. 3rdMarDiv.

Mike my experiences around the Remington 870 were not as positive as yours. The 870 was the one model shotgun no one wanted. The 870 had a proclivity to double shuck, which would tie up the gun, often and unfortunately for the rest of your, now most likely to be, short life.

I remember in the mid 70's when Remington advertised their "new improvement' on the 870. They split the lifter so you could use your pocket knife to get that second shell out of the receiver. Not a winner.

For me the 870 was a non-starter. Personally during the war I preferred the Ithica's, and later the Mossbergs, particularly the 590 variant. Gave my 590A to my son-in-law and I now play with a Benelli M4 or a double barrel hammer gun when a 12ga fighting weapon is the ticket.

It took me to the late 90's to find out that Remington had finally fixed the double shuck problem some time in the mid 80's. Didn't do any good for some of my buddies in the Nam though. Sort of like the Matty Mattel.

I was able to hang on to my M14 into the middle of 69. I do agree that for 100 yards in the 55gr 5.56 NATO worked pretty good in the XM16E1's and the A1's. By then though I would not trust the AR system any more than the 870 family, at all. Reliability in any fighting weapon was then, and still is today job #1 for any fighting weapon.

Of course the folks that want to run your healthcare system, then chose to "fix" the existing 5.56 NATO round with the M855 62gr round that "tumbled" less. Works through the SAW "better" but who cares that it doesn't put the bad guys down as effectively. The brass and desk jockey's that make these decisions, weren't going to be wounded and killed when the bullet's didn't work as well, as the earlier rounds.

One word comes to mind, "Priorities", the typical government decision is not based on the what is needed by the troops or citizens, but what the government is interested in this week.

AS to the M14, I still have a M1A/M14 in my safe today. Stone reliable and with an effective round. The Army today is still trying to find an "effective" bullet for our service weapon 45 years after being accepted into service. Any one see a disconnect here?

Interestingly enough, no one had or has had any problem with the 30-06 or 308/7.62 NATO. They work well even when not using the most modern or up to date bullet material and/or designs.

I have always believed we need two calibers anyway. One for in town and one for out of town, I like the idea of a "do all" caliber, sounds great, but in life most duel use things don't do both things well. We are back to priorities.

So endith the rambling and inane sermon.

Good luck to all.

Fred

Coal Dragger
October 20, 2012, 09:05 PM
Not that I have a lot to contribute, but in my tour in the "Sand Box" (Al Anbar Province, Iraq) in the Marines (attached to 1stMarDiv) as an infantryman I can say the Benelli M4 worked pretty well when actually deployed and used for its intended purpose. Never observed one to jam or go down for any reason, and being a semi-auto follow up shots were no doubt easier for guys who had them if for no other reason than everything else is semi or full auto and pulling the trigger again is more consistent with your muscle memory training.

mharveyww1
October 21, 2012, 11:13 PM
Chieftan: Good to read your input.

It occurs to me that my noting that I carried the 870 pump AND and M-14, WOULD seem to indicate that I was 'jarhead' (lovingly expressed!). :)
Actually 1st CAV...where the shotguns were not nearly as widely used as in the Corps.

I had the great advantage of having grown up in a 'gun-family'. My father, who WAS a Leatherneck in WWII (Guadalcanal, New Georgia) was an avid shooter and antique gun collector (I actually got my first gun the same week I got my first bicycle!).

The upshot is that I had been using pump shotguns (especially the 870) since I was a kid. And although I know there were some mechanical/design "issues" with the weapons in combat use, I can't help but think that "human error", especially under such extreme stress was a contributing factor.
I never experienced a failure of any kind.

How I came to hold onto the M-14 I carried to Nam while almost all the others around me had already converted to the "Plastic Fantastic" is a story for another post. I'll just say that "greybeard" First Sergeants had more sense
than the 'West Pointers' in higher echelons. :)

Mike

PTMCCAIN
October 23, 2012, 08:04 PM
OK, some people have busted my chops for my previous videos showing how quickly the Benelli M4 can cycle, claiming that I'm obiously just spraying pellets all over the place and no way can I hit anything when I shoot it so quickly.

Well...I thought, "That's a fair enough point."

I got the M4 out to the gun club and my son and I put it through its paces against a few very suspicious looking characters with handgun and black ski masks on.

I think the conclusion is simply this:

Yes, the Benelli M4 is manageable enough to get a lot of lead down range in a big hurry and be accurate at a self-distance distance.


Please note....

NO, I am NOT advocating ever shooting a shotgun this quickly in a SD situation and yes, I know pellets missed the BGs too, but...as you will see, with more controlled double tapping, etc. I got the lead on target just fine, and even at the quicker speeds, got the majority of lead on target.

So, there you go.

LINK TO THE VIDEO HERE. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-8c2wj_obU)

1911 guy
November 3, 2012, 12:50 AM
My own dedicated HD shotgun is a Mossberg 500 with an 18 1/2 inch barrel, cylinder bore, youth length stock, five round mag and a five round sidesaddle stocked with 2 3/4" slugs. The tube is stocked with 2 3/4" buck.

bushmaster1313
November 4, 2012, 09:36 PM
Dave encouraged my acquisition of, and especially my practice with, classic but still serviceable riot guns:

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj603/bushmaster1313/cimg0971q.jpg

Wishing you all the best, Dave:

Lou

rugerron67
November 6, 2012, 07:32 PM
I run the original fighting shotgun.
1903 Winchester 1897 12g 20" slam fire baby !

kris7047th
November 10, 2012, 07:46 PM
Wrong about that. Some of the top trainers in the Country teach shotgun for defensive shooting and can run them as effectively as an AR15. Google & You Tube Magpul.

oneounceload
November 10, 2012, 09:35 PM
RIP Dave, see you on the other side

spotch
November 27, 2012, 09:12 PM
As someone who is still reading and researching about buying a first shotgun I think it's interesting that so many people seem to still favor pumps over semi-autos (like, say, a mossberg 930) and that lighter-weight 20 gauges aren't more popular (since a lot of people have said that weight is a real important factor).


Also, Rip Dave :(

JamieC
November 28, 2012, 08:51 AM
I just bought a Remington 870 Express, got it off a friend who needed $. Came with a 28 & 18.5" barrel. Scattergun Technologies extended mag. Had maybe 20 shots through it. Way too long to fit the wife, got a Knoxx GenII recoil absorbing stock, with the adjustments, fits both of us fine. Need to get to the range and shoot it a bit, I've been told shooting 'clays' is a good way to have fun and use the gun, looking for a class for both of us to take. In the meantime it sits unloaded in the closet. She keeps her .38 special on her night stand, my flash light and Sigma on mine.

12gTim
January 3, 2013, 01:41 AM
Great post - possibly the best I've read!!

12gTim
January 3, 2013, 01:49 AM
dfariswheel;
Great post; could be the best I've read on the subject. Thank you!

ZVP
January 4, 2013, 03:31 PM
I am currentlly in the market for a home defense Shotgin and this string has debated and answered many of my own doubts!
I only saw one Brand suggestion, that being in favor of the 870. The model I am leaning toward! I like wood atocks and I like Remingtons. I want a simple shotgun sans all the gizmos.
I'm after function with a sholder sling and a slip onto the stock 5 round shell carrier. I figgure that pratice will replace a snap on Lazer and that knowing where the shot colum will hit means more. I am leaning toward a 20"bbl though a 18 1/2 would do.
Mossberg offers so many "Kits" that it would be easy to just buy a new plastic stocked gun *I don't likr Plastic)
Chance and looking on the "used" market is sorts exciting!
I want a pump just because I had a pump when I was a kid. They bespeak utter reliaibility to me
ANy suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks,
ZVP

WolfPak
February 24, 2013, 03:23 PM
I recommend shooting a Remington, Mossberg and Benelli or any shotgun you are interested in, in a 18.5 or 20" barrel format, prior to buying. Try both pistol grip and standard stocks if you can. This way you find the one that fits you best.

I personally went with Mossberg for the weight, ergonomics of the safety and the slide release. I have a Mossberg 590 with ghost ring sights and an ATI Akita stock, which has an adjustable LOP and comb height so I can get a perfect fit.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/25/e3egu3es.jpg

Sent from my LG-E970 using Tapatalk 2

ZVP
April 7, 2013, 03:26 PM
Well I bought a Sweet 20 ga Stoger Uplanser combo (just had one barrel tho) for $200 "used". The problem is that the Uplander has 28" bbls and needs to be chopped for easiest handling in the hall.
I couldn't do it! Frankilly the lines and handling quality of the little English stocked Double was just too good a fit for me and I decided to just start over.
Same Hock Shop (super deals!) I found a Montgomery Wards M550AG 12 gauge Pumpgun with a 30" bbl for $100! The "M" in the designation stands for Mossberg! Truthfully the gun is a Mossberg 500/550 made for Wards to sell.
Back to the drawing board.
The Barrel will be cut to 19" or 20" a bead installed.
I bought a Blackhawk shell scabbord for the stock. Depending on the handling qualitys of the finished gun it may/not get used.
I also need to add a recoil pad as it hasn't got one.
That's it plain and simple, no extra goodies to hinder speed.
Oh yea several cases of target loads to get familliar with using the gun as if it grew there!
OK I made a little mistake up front, but gained a very nice field/ play SxS 20ga Shotgun. I woulda wasted the money on coffee and tips at Starbucks anyways. I also got the advantage of starting this project with a Pumpgun. As a renewed Shotgun owner (haven't had one since 1970!), and "Gun Tinkerer" this project is "Big Time" for me! I am going about it carefully (the barrel cut) and I may even have a 'Smith do the chop to have it done right?
The M550 won't get refinished or reblued cause the little dings and scrapes add character to a working gun. It'll likely get several more so why worry?
Ammo choices in this Post Obama NESS are slim but as I said a couple cases of Target loads to learn the gun with. I scored some Federal 20 Ga slugs for the SxS and really acored on some Low Recoil 12 Ga slugs. I got 4 boxes of #4 Phesant loads for the SxS till I can find some Buckshot loads for it. Finally I am stuck with 1 oz, 3 1/2 dram #8 Dove loads for the pump for the time being. Now these are some very heavilly charged Dove Loads and kick like hell because of the power they make! A little trick for inside the house loads to stop agression or attack.
When ammo frees up again I will use Buckshot loads and slugs for H/D loads.
Then pratice, [ratice, pratice.
I want to thank everyone here for the fine advice contained in this string it helped me choose which route is best for me to follow with a H/D Shotgun!
ZVP

Deltaboy
April 7, 2013, 04:54 PM
Great Thread, I have shot every brand of shotgun made in the USA, Any of them will work in either in 20 or 12. So find one that fits YOU and stay safe out there.

ADRskew
May 2, 2013, 09:46 AM
To all who see these present's, greetings. After reading through a good portion of this thread I see some trends, good and bad. As for my choice I am as close to what my agency uses without an NFA tax stamp. I am using a Rem 870 magnum express with a 18.5 barrel bead sight, 6 point pistol grip stock with a 5 slot shell carrier on the stock and a light on a pressure switch. In my younger days I had the aftermarket tacticool rails mounted, the mag extension, the 40mm red/green dot and the three point sling. But after replacing the word tactical for practical my gun lost a few pounds. For HD ultimately it is your choice on what you choose, for me my pump gun works, it is close to what I use at work, I can effectively combat and tactical load. For my HD situation I can see both major entries into my house from the top of the stairs and if SHTF I will stay at the top of the stairs. You can have the TV, don't really care. But set foot on my stairs and I will light you up then I will shoot you down IF I need to (hence the light). But every situation is different and before I PCS'ed the shot gun was ineffective and a hand gun would have been preferable due to the tight lay out of the upstairs hall but I made due and thankfully did not to use it in a HD situation. regardless of what you choose the most important thing I have read on this sight and many other's is practice like you play and practice, practice, practice. With respect Skew

Sheepdog1968
May 2, 2013, 10:45 AM
I shoot my shotguns a lot (persoally prefer Mossberg 500 for "field work" and Mossberg 590 for home defense though other name pump brands are just as good). I'm at the point where it really doesn't matter to me if it is a bead or iron sights. I think the most important thing by far is no matter what you choose (within reason) is to take formal classes such as Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, and Loui Awerbuck and then practice a lot.

wolf695
June 5, 2013, 10:59 AM
You got that right Dave!

Dontkillbill
June 8, 2013, 04:23 PM
My trusty 1897,m 20" barel and 5 home made 0000 buck with 8 .38 caliber balls . Slam fires 40 38s in about 4 seconds!

ShootingTargets7.com
August 7, 2013, 03:01 PM
I'd really love to get an AA-12 looks like an amazing weapon to me.
Anyone here have one? If so what's it like?

allaroundhunter
August 7, 2013, 03:02 PM
They can only be owned by licensed dealers as dealer samples. Not many people will have them.

pikid89
August 14, 2013, 02:39 PM
I just got into the fighting shotgun game...My new to me 870 Wingmaster Police gun

Came with the factory top folder
187737

I shot it a few times with that stock, and like many of you advised, i was not a fan. So i searched around on ebay and found this police take off and scored it for $25.
Now all i need is a period correct butt plate or recoil pad..if anyone has any leads
187738
187739

lobo9er
August 14, 2013, 02:44 PM
Nice shotgun pikid!

sappyg
August 24, 2013, 02:35 PM
It took me about 3 days of reading off and on but I just finished all 18 pages of this thread. Aside from the odd post here and there I learned a good bit.

I just added one of those Mossburg 12 gage 18 1/2" barrels in cylinder bore to my older (and very smooth) 870 Express. After a trip to the range with some #1 buck at 15 feet my target had 75 30 caliber holes center mass..... Not bad.

I did remove the prehistoric factory 'recoil pad and replaced it with a grind to fit Limbsaver. Think I'll leave It at that and and stock up on some buckshot.

evildogooder
November 30, 2013, 06:10 PM
Actually if practiced single loading is by far faster. As an any cas shooter who uses a 97 can show you

evildogooder
November 30, 2013, 06:32 PM
Look up duece stevens on u tube hes one of the best. Or Missouri lefty. A 13 year old wonder shooter. . I shoot a double most times. On a bad day i can get 4 rounds out of an empty gun in under for seconds. I'm not even one of the faster shooters

Buggy
December 10, 2013, 11:28 PM
This thread needs more pictures of fighting shotguns.

https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/9015_1493414560882691_2147235188_n.jpg

I had to cut the barrel shroud to fit and used metal band to secure temporarily.

I am a long time pump guy, but decided to switch to an auto-loader. I'll never look back....

It has performed without error through about 500 misc rounds.

Sam1911
December 11, 2013, 07:31 AM
Do you practice a lot of door breaching?

DeadFlies
December 11, 2013, 08:40 AM
Do you practice a lot of door breaching?
Aw, give the noobie a break, Sam. THR FTW!

Anyway, I think he did a nice job putting it all together. And I agree: more pics!

Sam1911
December 11, 2013, 09:03 AM
Hey, serious question, at least sort of. I mean, if you're going to have the part on your gun, wouldn't you practice so you know how to use it?

DeadFlies
December 11, 2013, 11:53 AM
Hey, serious question, at least sort of. I mean, if you're going to have the part on your gun, wouldn't you practice so you know how to use it?

Logical, except that breaching devices, being useless, have no use. What's to know? ;)

Buggy
December 12, 2013, 03:00 PM
The door breaching muzzle is an outstanding hand to hand fighting device. It has very sharp teeth that would thwart trying to grab the muzzle. (I have often cut myself on the dang things)

Remember, most shootouts happen at less than ten feet.

If you are fighting for your life in your home in realistic circumstances, you are going to be close and its going to be messy. This shotgun is exactly for that purpose, I have other shotguns for hunting, clay and fun. This aint a fun-gun. :D

My experience is from being a retired cop and soldier. In both instances, I would have taken a breaching muzzle over a standard in a heart beat.

It's the reality of the situation.

Sam1911
December 12, 2013, 03:04 PM
I've often wondered how to harm someone with the front end of a shotgun. Now I know.

Buggy
December 12, 2013, 03:15 PM
Here are a few pictures of the single point sling retention bolt. You can purchase it from a reputable gunsmith or online at Brownells. It replaces the trigger housing pin:

http://www.survivalmagazine.org/survival-forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8147&d=1386291244

http://www.survivalmagazine.org/survival-forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8148&d=1386291311

http://www.survivalmagazine.org/survival-forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8149&d=1386291435

The benefits of a forward mounted single point sling are the ease of rest to ready position and the ease of attaching and removing. This is a picture of my son demonstrating:

http://www.survivalmagazine.org/survival-forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8150&d=1386291567

Buggy
December 12, 2013, 03:21 PM
Combat is full of unforeseen variables. Bad guys don't stand perfectly still for you to shoot them - They move, lunge and make very bad targets. It is quite common for two people to grapple even with firearms. (I have investigated many such cases) Not to mention common firearm malfunctions... Shotguns also have an erroneous "Mystique" about them, mainly when they are employed, it's assumed to be an end all situation. The pattern of your average scatted gun will be tight in a home defense situation, again erroneous - You do have to aim.

When all else fails, a stab to the head with this muzzle will end hostilities quickly. :)

Al Thompson
December 15, 2013, 07:09 PM
Nice looking shotgun. Point it at me and I'll leave. :D

One thing our folks from across the pond don't always realize is that our larger sized buckshot is pretty unique. When I was in SA OO buck was unknown, but SSG was available.

huey148
December 15, 2013, 07:30 PM
Both of these are 870s... top one is a former Ohio State Highway Patrol trade in I bought and stuck the Knoxx recoil stock to see if it works... It does. The other is a "simple" express 870 I bought used at my LGS for $150.... spent more than that to have the worn finish redone with duracoat and an XS big dit put on the front. It's not fancy.. Just a 4+1 shotty with a 18.5" barrel... But it's light and handy and points and shoots quickly... Simple is good sometimes

Dirty Bob
December 15, 2013, 07:37 PM
Mine can be seen in the Mossberg catalog, or at Gallery of Guns, etc. Just a plain-jane Mossberg 500 youth 20 gauge with a vent rib and screw-in chokes. Seemed like a lot of shotgun for $200, at least to me.

It shoots to point of aim with buckshot and is very controllable and reliable. I've used it in shotgun games, to test it and for practice. It's a lot of fun to shoot, but it looks like a hunting shotgun. I spent the money I saved on the gun to buy ammo to shoot through it! :D

I really bought into Dave McCracken's recommendation to buy ammo, use it, repeat. It's a great way to know your shotgun...and your own abilities.

All my best,
Dirty Bob

Brink
December 18, 2013, 09:29 PM
Someone called for pics?

My 870 with Knoxx stock, Blackhawk forearm, Choate mag extension, Mesa side-saddle, weaver rail, fake ACOG, no-name barrel clamp with rails, Nebo Protec 190lm flashlight, and a modified choke.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5543/11377616944_aaa3c9e03b_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kamelean/11377616944/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kamelean/11377616944/) by kamelean (http://www.flickr.com/people/kamelean/), on Flickr

ugaarguy
December 18, 2013, 11:37 PM
Brink, how's the cheek weld with the ocular of that sight sitting up so high? How well do the fake ACOG and the Nebo light handle full power 12 ga recoil?

Brink
December 19, 2013, 12:02 AM
Brink, how's the cheek weld with the ocular of that sight sitting up so high? How well do the fake ACOG and the Nebo light handle full power 12 ga recoil?

I have to hold my head up fairly high, but that is fine for me as that stock has kicked back into my cheekbone a few times and taught me how to hold it.

The fake ACOG is holding up so far. I got it off Amazon, it is the very highly rated one. I've put probably 20 magnum shells through it, and no problems so far. Shooting slugs through it all go in the same hole at 25 yards, so the POA hasn't shifted at all.

The Nebo is holding up great as well. No complaints there either.

Fishbed77
December 26, 2013, 12:39 AM
Here's my new Christmas present to myself. Just acquired her Monday.

Mossberg M590A1 w/ 18.5" barrel

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff427/Fishbed77/CopyofDSC_1225_zps3a958545.jpg

RTR_RTR
December 26, 2013, 01:11 AM
I've often wondered how to harm someone with the front end of a shotgun. Now I know.


Cheeky

Fred Fuller
December 30, 2013, 11:57 AM
VERY nice, Fishbed - that looks to be about perfect. Congratulations!

Now it deeds that most important of shotgun accessories - wear marks :D

MCgunner
December 30, 2013, 12:36 PM
This has been stickied since 2008 and I'm just now reading it. I totally agree with Dave on all points and I'm just a wing shooter, not a soldier or police officer.

I'd like to add that familiarity being the key, practice (Dave mentions this), no familiarity works for me better than actual use in the field. This is why I like my little coach gun which is my every day utility field gun and favorite dove gun. I've taken everything from dove to small game to, recently, an 8 point buck with 3 buck from 35 yards. I KNOW this gun well from use. It fits me, he also mentions this, and it is very compact being a coach gun. I shot a duck off the tank with it the other day and reloaded it as I watched the dog chase the wounded duck back to the tank, never looked down at the gun. That's how familiar one needs to be with their firearm, especially if it's not a multi shot repeater, IMHO. Actual field use insures this.

If I wanted a pump, I'd get a Mossberg or a short barrel for my 500 or 535. Been using the 500 for 20 years for duck hunting, pretty familiar with it, too. But, I really prefer the little coach gun. :D

Flintknapper
January 5, 2014, 01:12 PM
Buggy Wrote:
My experience is from being a retired cop and soldier. In both instances, I would have taken a breaching muzzle over a standard in a heartbeat.

^^^^^^^
Agreed.

Not that I expect to ‘breach’ a door while defending my home, but upon seeing the muzzle, I immediately recognized it to be a weapon itself.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n92/flintknapper/MossyFlex4_zpsd7089b69.jpg

Additionally, this feature (on the Mossy I chose) gets you are very thick/sturdy barrel. The muzzle measures right at 5/32” thick and appears to run the length of the barrel. This thing would take a hell of a beating (in real world conditions) and not fail you.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n92/flintknapper/MossyFlex1_zps473ed37a.jpg


I prefer a fairly compact shotgun (for home defense), so I went with an 18.5” barrel (5 + 1 capacity) and chose the short version of a butt stock.

This particular shotgun is the ‘Flex’ model….so the butt stock can quickly be changed out to a longer one…. or a pistol grip, even a six position tactical.

Various thickness recoil pads are available and change out in just seconds. The fore-end is easily swapped out as well.


http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n92/flintknapper/MossyFlex3_zpsc0f2d7f6.jpg

After you settle on the basic features of your defensive shotgun….you can add accessories (as dictated by your personal needs).

For me….that was the addition of a sling, a decent light and a sidesaddle.

pps
January 5, 2014, 03:33 PM
This is as close to "tactical" as I will ever adorn my shotgun. The flashlight is useful, and the 5 dollar butt cuff is worth the expense.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l96/pps_2006/Ithicas/tacedout_zps3e182cff.jpg

Truth be told, I like this one much better, and it's what I keep at my business. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l96/pps_2006/1975ithica_zps3c97b6d8.jpg

I have to say that these guns get some funny looks when I take them to the trap range, but it's hard to stay proficient without blowing the rust out of the barrel from time to time.

Fishbed77
January 6, 2014, 12:05 AM
VERY nice, Fishbed - that looks to be about perfect. Congratulations!

Now it deeds that most important of shotgun accessories - wear marks

Thanks, Fred!

I'm working on those wear marks!

So far, it's proving to be a fantastic shotgun. I was glad to find one - it seems like the 20" M590A1s are all over the place, but the 18.5" versions are as rare as hens' teeth around here. The balance of the 18.5" heavy barrel feels just right, and I'm really digging the ghost ring sights - I find them to be every bit as fast as a bead.

I've been a Remington shotgun guy in the past, but so far, I'm finding this shotgun to be considerably better than any 870 Express I've encountered, and every bit the equal to an 870 Police in terms of quality.

Actually, I may like the M590A1 better than the 870 Police, due to the balance, slide release location, and the awesome sights. The only downside at all is the poorly-molded corncob foreend, but I will be replacing that soon with a Magpul foreend and weapon-mounted light.

Mike1234567
January 6, 2014, 03:18 PM
If I needed a "fighting" SG the only one I'd consider is a Saiga 12ga. For "home defense" my inexpensive TriS-Star 12ga is fine but I did add a mag extension.

Flintknapper
January 6, 2014, 08:45 PM
Actually, I may like the M590A1 better than the 870 Police, due to the balance, slide release location

^^^^^^^

I like the 'balance' as well. Fully stoked...mine has a balance point almost exactly in the middle of the weapon, makes pointing and swinging very fast and natural.

I appreciate the slide release location AND location of the safety as well (tang safety). Tang mounted safety makes it basically 'Ambi'.

Simple shotgun to disassemble and clean. Very little not to like on the Mossy.

strambo
January 6, 2014, 10:04 PM
I must confess as to not understanding the breaching device as H2H weapon. In terms of debilitating injury (the type that would stop a determined assailant) what does it add exactly? The teeth aren't long enough to penetrate into vital organs/vessels. If you rake it and tear skin, that is painful, not debilitating.

The most effective way to use the muzzle is to step in with all your weight in motion and muzzle-punch them in a vulnerable area such as the throat, sternum, solar plexus, bladder, groin etc.

A fully committed muzzle punch to the sternum (all your body weight in motion behind it) will likely punch through the sternum and into the heart. Little teeth aren't gonna matter. Looks scary though...at the cost of added expense and length.

crazyjennyblack
January 7, 2014, 12:03 AM
I like the looks of a breaching muzzle, but I don't wanna drop that much dough on a shotgun, and I have no idea where to get one that will bolt onto the gun I already have.

My fighting shotgun is really simple. A 12 gauge Mossberg 500 with a field barrel cut down to 20". I put a high visibility fiber optic bead on the end, and the top of the vent rib got a thin strip of white glow tape all the way down it. Total cost to me - $180 out the door. I later got a sidesaddle for it for $15, and a small LED flashlight got added about a year ago. I've put probably 2 or 3 thousand rounds through it over the years, and it sits in the corner of my bedroom.

Nite Ryder
January 7, 2014, 01:00 AM
Seems everyone has an opinion when it comes to shotguns. I noticed several people mentioned wanting to use double barrel shotguns. While these shotguns work fairly well, they are much slower to reload than anything else you can buy or shoot. In recent years they have become popular again because of Cowboy Action Shooting, but it is well known among this group of shooters that a Winchester 97 or Win 97 clone is faster. Double barrels seldom breakdown, but when they do they are difficult to repair unless it a failure of the firing pins. I feel whether you use a Win 97, Remington 870, or a Mossberg 500, you are better equipped than the person using a semi auto loader. The Remington auto's need a simple 'O' ring to function properly. That 'O' ring is easy to break or stretch, when that happens it must be replaced, sometimes there is no warning, your gun works fine and then it stops working, period. You only need one or two shotguns, but they should have short barrels and not alot of gadgets to make them heavy. I feel a weapon mounted flashlight is a huge mistake, that light makes you an easy target, far better to have a light you can hold at arm's length if need be. Anyone shooting at what's behind the light will miss you hopefully. No gun, no matter what it is, is of value if you don't know how to use it and practice using it. Buy yourself some dummy rounds and practice loading your shotgun and then pointing and pulling the trigger on a dummy round as fast as you can. You probably have never been in a gun battle, when you are the thing that saves your life is doing the right thing quickly and accurately, you will never be able to do that unless you practice. If you think I'm wrong, go buy a timer and find out how slow you are. You think you are fast already? Try matching this young lady, she is fast with a shotgun because she knows what she is doing and she practices: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbCjcEO9z1A

crazyjennyblack
January 7, 2014, 10:52 AM
Nyte-Ryder - I think a weapon light could be a risk, like you say, depending on how it is used. People who keep it on all the time could make themselves a target. However, I like having a small light with a tailcap switch on my shotgun, right where I can bump it with a finger. Why? Sometimes just a split second of light is all you need, and a brief flash can disorient someone while giving you the opportunity to correctly identify your target.

In my case, I don't have children, but I do have a roommate who lives with me. I think weapon lights are a must-have for parents and just about anyone living with someone else. If you don't identify your target in the dark, you break rule #4 "Be sure of your target and what's beyond it."

tiamat
January 7, 2014, 02:34 PM
If we're talking about fighting shotguns, (or any shotguns for that matter), I'm not sure how one would be expected to hold a flashlight at arms length away from their body while maintaining any sort of useful grip on a shotgun for any length of time. I'm of the opinion that a weapon mounted light is more effective.

That cowboy action shooter's reloading method is neat, and she sure is quick with it - lots of practice I'm sure. But again, I hardly think someone is going to be holding 2 shells in their offhand palm, and two more shells in between their remaining fingers. Useful for a shooting course perhaps, but I don't see this method being employed in a fighting situation.

strambo
January 7, 2014, 03:29 PM
That cowboy action shooter's reloading method is neat, and she sure is quick with it - lots of practice I'm sure. But again, I hardly think someone is going to be holding 2 shells in their offhand palm, and two more shells in between their remaining fingers. Useful for a shooting course perhaps, but I don't see this method being employed in a fighting situation

It could work in a fighting situation (or a similar method, juggling all those shells at once wouldn't make sense in a fight). The shells don't start in her hand, they come from her belt holder. Something goes bump in the night, grab the shotgun. No immediate need to shoot? Take 3 seconds to snap the belt on that was stored next to the shotgun.

I have a similar idea going on, but it isn't a belt, nor is it for shotgun. I have a bullet proof vest under my bed with one side attached so I can put it on with one hand. It has an empty pistol holster, AR magazine, pistol magazine, spare light and flex cuffs.

If I don't have time to grab it, no loss it just sits there under the bed, that's life. If I do have time, it seriously upgrades my protection and response capability.

The molle "war belts" can be a handy and inexpensive way to keep some spare ammo, light, cell etc. handy for quick donning if given a chance.

Again, no downside, you grab gun/light 1st anyway then proceed from there. Heck, if I could afford it and had the time, I'd kit up in full armor, helmet, and night vision with flashbangs. The threat posed by multiple armed persons in a structure is the same in your house as in a house in Iraq or Afghanistan. Multiple armed threats are multiple armed threats, I want every advantage I can get to survive.

...I guess I'm on the opposite side of the "I have an old revolver in the nightstand to scare them off" camp I've oft-encountered with casual gun owners. ;)

Flintknapper
January 7, 2014, 08:32 PM
That cowboy action shooter's reloading method is neat, and she sure is quick with it - lots of practice I'm sure. But again, I hardly think someone is going to be holding 2 shells in their offhand palm, and two more shells in between their remaining fingers. Useful for a shooting course perhaps, but I don't see this method being employed in a fighting situation.

Certainly...holding multiple shotshells in the offhand is a 'gamers' technique not appropriate for real world self defense, BUT the practice of taking a single shotshell and loading it directly into the receiver does have merit.

Ideally, you'd like to find (or maintain) cover AND have enough time to completely reload your weapon (once shot dry), but you might only have time to load a single round before needing to address a threat. In situations such as that, feeding a shell directly into the receiver and then chambering it....can be done quite swiftly.

It can be accomplished from over the top or from underneath the receiver. I prefer coming from underneath since the transition from the receiver... back to the forearm is easier/faster (for me).

Are you likely to 'shoot your weapon dry' in the average home defense scenario, who knows? But... it is an easy skill to learn and I want to have as many 'tools' in my box as I can...if I am unfortunate enough to have to defend myself or family.

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