CZ 75bd camming


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rjk2475
April 12, 2008, 11:14 PM
how many of you have decided to live with this? how's your accuracy? thank you

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Monkeybear
April 13, 2008, 04:34 AM
Mine was the most accurate handgun I ever fired. What is "camming"? Live with what?

RON in PA
April 13, 2008, 05:56 AM
I'm assuming he means that just before the hammer is released it moves a fraction of an inch back. Guessing that it was designed that way as a supossed safety feature. Never liked it when I owned a CZ.

LUPUS
April 13, 2008, 06:55 AM
Hammer camming can be released easyly by adapting an Angus / CZ competetion hammer to your CZ.
Also a potent gunsmith may alter the sear and hammer engaging angles to decrease the amount of camming.
But if it is a carry pistol, than let it stay in that way for an additional safety feature under stress.

DirksterG30
April 13, 2008, 07:49 AM
The hammer camming doesn't bother me at all on my P-01. I actually shoot the P-01 better than any other pistol I own, including a 1911.

JDGray
April 13, 2008, 08:51 AM
A 16# or 15# mainspring will help. The decocker guns are tricky to get together, but a little hammer work would eliminate the camming.
http://czcustom.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=58&products_id=249&osCsid=7692400df44b9ec1755cdd2be6962c14

rjk2475
April 13, 2008, 09:58 AM
RON in PA
what did you replace the cz with?

DirksterG30:
Are P-01 sights similar to 75B sights?

atblis
April 13, 2008, 10:23 AM
Hammer camming is actually intentional and necessary. Try going the opposite way (let off as I call it), and see what happens. :eek: Been there done that

Reducing it can improve the trigger. You still want a little hammer camming though.

The Lone Haranguer
April 13, 2008, 10:42 AM
I had not heard this before, so I got out my PCR compact, unloaded it and dryfired it. It has always had a lot of "creep" in the SA pull. Sure enough, the hammer moves back a little as I start the pull. This must be accounting for the "creep," as the hammer stops moving when the actual trigger "break" point is reached. I've had no accuracy problems with it, however. I am now leaning away from having the trigger job done, even though I live near Angus Hobdell:cool:, actually meeting him once for some grips.

rjk2475
April 13, 2008, 11:36 AM
atblis: the other way? please explain letoff

Dobe
April 13, 2008, 11:38 AM
This is one of the things I disllike about the CZ platform. It does interfer with accuracy. It reminds me of shooting a DA revolver, but not nearly as long of a pull. The AR-24 did away with most of this.

While I find the long cammng a problem, I do realize the CZ platform is an accurate handgun once one becomes accustomed to the trigger pull.

The Lone Haranguer
April 13, 2008, 11:46 AM
If the roughness could be taken out of the hammer camming, I could live with that, without the expense of new parts (which might not be available for my gun anyway).

shamus
April 13, 2008, 11:51 AM
I never noticed the cammimg.

but maybe it's affecting my accuracy. :rolleyes::D


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/shamus005/cz75target210shots.jpg

armoredman
April 13, 2008, 12:00 PM
Ditto.

Chortdraw
April 13, 2008, 01:34 PM
HMMMM, Looks like the one round got away from you..... LOL Sure wish I could shoot like that!!!!

rjk2475
April 13, 2008, 01:39 PM
OK Shamus: seriously, how do i learn to do that?

shamus
April 13, 2008, 02:17 PM
I think it was ther CZ more than me.

I just got lucky that day, I think.

Beagle-zebub
April 13, 2008, 02:23 PM
Does the single-action version also have hammer camming?

Dobe
April 13, 2008, 04:05 PM
Yes, this is the model I own.

ZeSpectre
April 13, 2008, 04:46 PM
The correct terms for this discussion are....

Negative Engagement - As the trigger is slowly pulled, the hammer moves forwards slightly before breaking and contacting the firing pin.
This is also known as a "hair trigger" and is DANGEROUS!

Neutral Engagement - As the trigger is slowly pulled, the hammer remains neutral and does not move before breaking and contacting the firing pin.
Not considered the best idea, but okay for range-only toys.

Positive Engagement - As the trigger is slowly pulled, the hammer moves rearward slightly before breaking and contacting the firing pin.
This is the safest type of hammer/sear engagement and prefereable for regular firearms.

Some CZ pistols have a fairly steep positive engagement. This is extremely safe, but some find it annoying as you have to overcome the additional resistance before the trigger "breaks" and the gun goes off. If your positive engagement is too steep/strong, take it to a gunsmith.

SOME POSITIVE ENGAGEMENT IS GOOD. DO NOT MESS WITH THE SEAR ENGAGEMENT UNLESS YOU HAVE REAL KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE WORKING WITH TRIGGERS. A TINY ERROR WHILE GUNSMITHING HERE WILL CREATE A LETHALLY DANGEROUS FIREARM THAT COULD GO OFF AT ANY TIME WITHOUT WARNING!

buttrap
April 13, 2008, 06:47 PM
Both of my 75Bs had that issue. Bit of work with a stone and its just noticable to the eye and you cant feel it now.

atblis
April 13, 2008, 06:58 PM
This is one of the things I disllike about the CZ platform
It has nothing to do with the CZ platform. Other guns have it too. It's simply the angles on the sear and hammer hooks. Most likely, CZ is playing it safe in regards to lawsuits. The older CZs seem to have less angle on the sear/hammer, and thus less camming (and usually better triggers).

The problem with going for neutral engagement, is that after a little wear, neutral becomes let off.

With a short trigger shelf and bad angles, you'll have a gun that'll fire when you drop the slide and or fire multiple shots per trigger pull. Been there done that.

A hair trigger is just a light trigger.

Dobe
April 13, 2008, 08:58 PM
It has nothing to do with the CZ platform.

If CZ uses it, it has to do with CZ. That doesn't mean it is exclusively CZ, but rather inclusive.

The problem with going for neutral engagement, is that after a little wear, neutral becomes let off.


Don't argue in absolutes. There are degrees. CZ doesn't need to have a neurtal engagement, but doesn't need to have the extreme positive either.

1SOW
April 13, 2008, 11:55 PM
There is ann informative "trigger job" on CZForum.com. It has step-by-step pics and instructions. These include changing the angle on the sear to reduce camming.
I did My 75B - springs & trigger job) and the improvements were amazing. I didn't try to change that thin angle, just smoothed the rough surfaces. The camming became a total non-issue.
The camming on the CZ75 is difficult to work because the surface is VERY thin. Imagine the sharpened portion of a wood chisel only 1/16" (+/-) thick and changing that to a shallower angle precisely by hand.
The Angus Hobdell competition hammer and trigger job fixes the problems.

atblis
April 14, 2008, 10:57 AM
Don't argue in absolutes. There are degrees. CZ doesn't need to have a neurtal engagement, but doesn't need to have the extreme positive either.
Huh?? You say not to use "absolutes" and then turn around and use them yourself. Reread what I wrote.

If CZ uses it, it has to do with CZ. That doesn't mean it is exclusively CZ, but rather inclusive.
You missed my point. CZ doesn't do it because the "CZ platform" requires it. They do it for legal reasons. It's a lawyer trigger.

atblis
April 14, 2008, 11:54 AM
Series II Stoning fixture makes to relatively simple. I couldn't imagine doing it by hand.

http://www.brownells.com/Images/Products/713270100.jpg

FEG
April 14, 2008, 05:22 PM
Actually, Frantisek Koucy designed it to be that way from the beginning. All of his other designs have the positive engagement also. (See the vz-82/CZ 83, for example.)

atblis
April 14, 2008, 07:18 PM
Right it's supposed to. The question is how much? There's was a definite change from a slight amount of camming to what we have now.

FEG
April 15, 2008, 04:09 PM
Right it's supposed to. The question is how much? There's was a definite change from a slight amount of camming to what we have now.

Good point. My 1982 and 1994 models do not cam as much as the Type B models.

boogalou
April 17, 2008, 04:13 PM
Sometimes I think the amount of camming is just a feature of who put the gun together that day. My PCR has almost zero camming, but out of my remaining 5 CZ's, my "91" CZ75 has the most. Also, the degree of play in the sear cage can affect the trigger substantially.

The design of the CZ75 series of pistols is capable of excellent triggers if folks want to spend the money.

atblis
April 17, 2008, 04:17 PM
My 1986 CZ75 has the least camming.

Everything else is newer and has about the same amount of camming (which is much more than the 86).

Lobotomy Boy
April 17, 2008, 06:07 PM
I've got the same problem with my CZ75B. It hampered my shooting so much that when I switched from my CZ to my Glock 26 for a defensive handgun shooting league I used to be in, my scores immediately went up 30 percent.
I tried a lighter trigger spring, which helped some, but I've never been able to shoot the gun well.

At least in 9mm form. I have a Kadet kit for the gun and for some reason the camming has never bothered me when shooting .22LR. Go figure. As a result the CZ is now pretty much a dedicated .22.

FEG
April 17, 2008, 06:10 PM
Sometimes I think the amount of camming is just a feature of who put the gun together that day.

Sounds reasonable. Don't forget that the average Czech worker drinks a beer or three on his lunch break...

;)

atblis
April 18, 2008, 11:28 AM
I have noted that Cz's quality does vary considerably. I am certain that part of this comes from the fact that they do large contracts for various police agencies and some military. From what I gather, some of these contract guns end up on the civilian market. I seem to remember a run of Turkish contract 75s a several years ago. My point is that different contracts will have different specs/requirements/costs.

I tried a lighter trigger spring, which helped some, but I've never been able to shoot the gun well.
I think you're talking about the DA first shot. The transition from DA to SA does take work to overcome. It is kinda nice about the Glocks that the trigger is always the same. This thread is talking about the angles in the interface between the sear and hammer (only applies when the hammer is cocked).

Putting in an EGW or Miossi sear and reducing the camming will do wonders for the trigger. The next step is a hammer with a lower shelf. A properly fitted Champion hammer and hard sear with the SA trigger does wonders for the gun (wouldn't carry that though).

The Cz triggers are actually pretty easy to work on.

DawgFvr
April 18, 2008, 11:47 AM
This is why I do not like the whole DA/SA concept. Especially since my roots are in revolvers. Give me a DAO or some way that the trigger action is consistent with all my side arms. That is why my SA/DA has become a Range gun for me and DAO is the carry weapon. Kahr is next on my list of "must have" weapons just for this very reason.

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