I'm so angry I can't think.


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The Unknown User
April 12, 2008, 11:50 PM
So, a friend of mine is affiliated with ProtestEasyGuns, and is organizing a protest in her area. She will be taking part in a "lie in" which is supposed to draw support for stronger gun laws to prevent future shootings.

She was close friends with one of the victims from VT, so it's easy to see why she's so involved. I shared with her previously that I couldn't believe she was supporting more laws to add to those that criminals already break, and she just shyed away.

Recently, on Facebook, her friend posted a video of the president of PEG speaking, and spreading more of her lies and filth. Of course, I responded, along with numerous other people, including numerous students from VT who completely disagreed with PEG.

So, I put in my two cents, saying that I didn't agree with PEG, and that I couldn't support PEG's purpose. My friend responded, saying that she was curious what those who disagreed with PEG thought of as the best approach is to ending future violence.

This is my response:

"I believe the best approach is to realize that laws are completely irrelevant. It was illegal for Cho to bring a gun to VT, and it was definitely illegal for him to murder his fellow students. The laws didn't stop him, and the police aren't there to protect people, despite what people may believe.

It is up to individuals to ensure their own personal safety, so I think the best approach is to stop restricting the rights of the law abiding and remove arbitrary limitations on the Second Amendment.

Jen, in the last year, there have been, what, five shootings? In four of them, the victims were, by law, sanction, rule, or policy, disarmed. They weren't allowed the means with which to defend themselves. A few months back there was a shooting at a church, where a law abiding citizen stopped the shooter with her own gun.

So called "gun free zones" just create victims. Criminals aren't going to go to places where people carry. There will probably never be a shooting at an NRA meeting.

Oh, and to clarify: I don't oppose the protest. I support ALL rights, and you have the right to protest. I don't have to like the message the protest is about, however, but whether I like something or not is entirely irrelevant. :)

Good luck, and I hope everything goes smoothly."

Her response:

"I don't need this right now." She then followed this with a comment about me being a "friend." Yes, it was in quotes.

Ugh.

I don't even know what to do. I just want to bang my head on the wall.

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Biker
April 12, 2008, 11:53 PM
Shine it. Don't mean nothin'.

Biker

gp911
April 12, 2008, 11:53 PM
I think you've done all you could in this situation... If she is unwilling to listen to reason and would rather keep her head in the sand with feel-good quasi-solutions that infringe on law-abiding citizens rights then there is little else you can do.

Good luck with all that. :D

gp911

MacEntyre
April 12, 2008, 11:55 PM
You thought you had a friend, but you did not.

The Unknown User
April 12, 2008, 11:58 PM
This is so infuriating. I can understand why she's so driven by her emotions.

Ugh.

Nate C.
April 12, 2008, 11:58 PM
You did what you could: respectfully disagreed with her opinion and wished her well in her misguided endeavors. Ball's in her court. I wouldn't waste too much energy worrying about it.

I would suggest you send her some of Oleg's cool images, but it sounds like it might inflame the matter.

Henry Bowman
April 13, 2008, 12:00 AM
"I don't need this right now." Ask her which "right" she doesn't need. Is it the right of free speech, protected by the 1A? Is it the right os assembly? Is the is basic human right of self defense? What ever right she doesn't need, she is free not to exercise. The prolem come when she advocates infringing your right, wheter you "need" them at the moment or not.

It really sounds as if she is simply misguided. She pasionately want to "do something" and has jumped on the first idea that came along, convenienty promoted by the MSM.

buck00
April 13, 2008, 12:01 AM
Your response was well-written. I would leave it at that and give her some space... let her cool off.

If she was friends with a VT victim chances are she is directing her anger/frustration/grief at guns... and by you supporting guns and CCW you are upsetting and/or confusing her. She may even be upset because this makes her rethink a knee-jerk position.

In terms of the long-term discussion with her, present the common ground. You both want the same thing: kids to be safe on college campuses. The major difference is on the methods.

However, for the short-term, I'd give her some space. Let her rant and rave with her liberal buddies... then let her cool off, and maybe you can have a rational discussion (not an emotional-based discussion) in the future.

Acheron
April 13, 2008, 12:02 AM
If she was a true friend then your means of self-defence wouldn't have mattered.

Do not weep at the passing of false friends. Be happy for the real ones that you have.


All of my friends know that I shoot and they all know that I would carry a gun if I could legally do so on campus. Not one of them cares.

The Unknown User
April 13, 2008, 12:07 AM
Nate, doing my absolute best to be civil and wish her well in her endeavors made her angry. I can only imagine what anything else would do. :P

Henry, that's a great response. I was thinking about the irony about how she uses her 1A rights to try to infringe on the rights of the 2A.

RNB65
April 13, 2008, 12:08 AM
So why are you angry? She's entitled to her opinions. Just because you disagree is no reason to be angry.
-

The Unknown User
April 13, 2008, 12:09 AM
Buck, I beat you to the punch:

"I understand you're upset. I'm upset, too, just for slightly different reasons. The worst part about all of this is that you and I both want the same thing, but would take entirely different routes to get there. You and I don't have to see eye to eye about it, but I just want you to know I'm not trying to hurt your feelings."

The Unknown User
April 13, 2008, 12:10 AM
RNB, it's more because I'm frustrated. I mean, she asks me what I think, and then when I don't agree with her, she snaps back at me.

I'm also entitled to be angry. :D

Byron Quick
April 13, 2008, 12:14 AM
This is so infuriating. I can understand why she's so driven by her emotions.

It should not infuriate you. It should make you happy. She has identified herself as someone who is not worthy of being your "friend."

Now losing a friend should be a sad thing. But you can't lose what you never had.

I would advise not wasting anymore time or effort with her.

As far as wanting the same goals but choosing different methods to reach those goals go...there are very few of the stated goals of leftists that I do not share. That doesn't mean I have to associate with leftists.

The Unknown User
April 13, 2008, 12:28 AM
I think I'm more angry because she's chosen the "dark side." She's a nice person, so it sucks to see her choosing the emotional, rhetorical, feel good side, rather than the side that uses fact, logic, and the Constituation.

I'm sure there will be many more friends I lose in the future. Such is life.

LWGN
April 13, 2008, 12:31 AM
She may still be looking for someone else (a surrogate parent, in the guise of 'Uncle Sam') to protect her and her friends from having bad things happen instead of acknowledging that as adults they are now responsible for doing the protecting themselves.

Being a grown up is tough. I don't think I really started thinking and acting like a grown up until after nearly all of my older relatives died. It focuses the mind remarkably to realize that there really is no one else to bail you out if you get in trouble. On some level, many people have the sense that there should be someone there to protect them from the consequences of their own decisions. Your friend may be dealing not only with the grief and loss of her friend from VT, but also with the loss of her own illusion of safety. She may honestly believe that there should be someone out there (the police, legislators, the nebulous "government") who can kiss away the nightmare and make her life all sweetness and light again, like Mommy and Daddy used to when she was little. It is an attractive fantasy. When it is taken away, a lot of people feel betrayed and outraged. I know I did. I got over it.

Also, if she acknowledges that more students going armed would have saved the lives at VT, she has to acknowledge that the people she trusts to protect her and her friends in fact put rules in place that led directly to the death of her friend.

Your argument shakes the foundation of her world in a big way, and probably makes her feel both more alone and vulnerable than she already felt, and, given the work she has been doing to get guns restricted, may even make her feel somewhat responsible for her friend's death, and that never feels comfortable.

Give her some space, and she might calm down. Even if none of the things I'm speculating about reflect her state of mind, grief can make people act in ways that seem crazy to someone who hasn't experienced that kind of wrenching, disorienting loss. Don't take it personally.

Ash
April 13, 2008, 12:31 AM
Well, I had two friends killed by drunk driving on two different occaisions. Yet I am not for Prohibition II.

Ash

The Unknown User
April 13, 2008, 12:36 AM
LWGN, thank you. I hadn't thought of a lot of that.

Ash, I'm really sorry to hear that, but you do make a good point.

armed85
April 13, 2008, 12:41 AM
Most of the people I've met that believe in these sort of laws of banning firearms, operate on emotion rather than reason.

Our laws are based on what a reasonable person would do. We have been a nation for long enough that we have all the criminal laws we need. It's already illegal to murder, rape, steal, etc.

Liberals, leftists, California natives, whatever you want to call them, want our government to "do something." So our politicians create more redundant laws and after the next shooting we hear "the gunman used an illegal gun to murder innocent people" instead of just hearing "the gunman murdered innocent people." The end result is the same, an unreasonable person, murdering innocent people, and breaking a law that's been in place for hundreds of years.

You wrote a reasonable argument. Your friend responded that she "doesn't need this." That's rather telling. She is obviously operating on emotion rather than use reason.

Find a new friend and continue to point out the error of her emotional argument when she speaks in a pubic forum.

OneofManyJennifers
April 13, 2008, 12:42 AM
"In terms of the long-term discussion with her, present the common ground. You both want the same thing: kids to be safe on college campuses. The major difference is on the methods.

However, for the short-term, I'd give her some space. Let her rant and rave with her liberal buddies... then let her cool off, and maybe you can have a rational discussion (not an emotional-based discussion) in the future."

I agree with Buck00. Lots of people hold very well-meaning liberal views when they're younger and learn more about the way the world works as they grow older. Instead of writing her off as a friend, be more of a friend and let your actions convince her over time rather than words.

The Tourist
April 13, 2008, 12:42 AM
The best approach is simply humor. Let me give you an example.

This "lie in" is an older tactic. At one point they used pairs of kids' shoes. During one of the first "lie ins," someone took a picture and showed it to a riding buddy of mine. Confused, he asked what he was looking at. He was told, "It's 100 dead liberals."

He shrugged, nodded, and said, "Well it ain't much, but it's a start..."

You can drive yourself nuts facing every inconvenience with added blood pressure. They will protest just as you will write letters to the editor. The sun shines tomorrow. Perhaps the best advice my friend gave is to shrug and laugh.

Kind of Blued
April 13, 2008, 12:46 AM
First of all, I can't believe what is happening here wasn't included in the "THR Inevitabilities" thread, probably due to the fact that the truth makes us look bad.

People have flaws. I have friends that are slightly racist, ignorant of history, don't see the value in the details, think their mistakes can be blamed on a catalyst, etc. If I decided that people who don't have the same values as me shouldn't be my friends, I would have to perform an awkward interrogation process upon meeting people. I would also have no friends.

Just because someone doesn't like guns, doesn't understand your logic, or doesn't even understand why your inalienable rights should remain intact, it does not mean they are unworthy of your friendship. That is unless you are a person completely void of dynamic and have a sole interest.

Rob87, I'm sure you have your reasons for befriending this woman, and your response was a fine one. Hers was indeed a bit immature, but it is up to you, not faceless personalities on the internet, to decide who your friends should be.

That being said, I appreciate all of you. :)

boggyboy72
April 13, 2008, 12:49 AM
What I say is ''What if when the nutjob ran in and started shooting,4 or 5 people with ccw stood up and ended it?''give em something to think about.All the shootings make me want to carry everywere all the time.Better to be judged by 12 then who knows how many carried by 6.

vpost
April 13, 2008, 01:32 AM
Sometimes it's in how it is all presented, I heard a story of two gentleman having a discussion on skeet shooting, and turned to AR's and AK's, Gentleman #3 overhearing the conversation ask first two "why do you feel the need to have such weapons, or any weapons at all? #1 says he is not in the mood and leaves, #2 says for the protection of my home and family. #3 says just call the police, run away, lock yourself in a room, and many other alternatives, meanwhile #2 pulls a pen out of his pocket and pokes #3 in the chest and says give me your money, #3 shocked says what, #2 pokes him again and says give me your money.#2 says you don't know who I am I just robbed you and stabbed you with my knife, holding up his pen, he asks where are the police? #3 looks at #2 and says I think I may need to be reeducated and leaves. That last line says it all "reeducated". Sometime it's the perspective that is flawed. My advice is don't give up on her, reeducate her, and over time she may return from the dark side.

Vince

JCMAG
April 13, 2008, 02:01 AM
I can understand your frustrations. Frankly, I don't discuss gun politics with people who I don't feel as though I can trust to be reasonable.

Your friend has good intentions. She sounds like a sweetheart, but unfortunately delicate sensibilities are a big part of the non-sensibility of many Americans these days. Passions disarmed Britain, fortunately we Americans have a little more fortitude. Not enough, but a little more to get by on.

Perhaps you should not discuss politics with this woman. I'm sure you have lots of other things to talk about. However, definitely keep up the good work challenging the thinking of anti-liberty organizations. :)

mccook8
April 13, 2008, 02:49 AM
I say, JOIN the protest.

(but don't lie down)

Instead, stand upright in the midst of the "dead bodies", holding a sign that reads, "Murderous Sociopaths Prefer Disarmed Victims."

Let THEM help to illustrate OUR point.

bogie
April 13, 2008, 02:49 AM
Guys... The world is not black and white. It is not ones and zeroes. It is not good and evil. It's all colors of the spectrum, and the entire infinite pi... And very darn few people are purely good, or purely evil.

We're going to hear a LOT of emotion in the next few days. Very little of it will be countered by logic, and MUCH of it will at times be highly insulting towards us.

Now, we can either get angry, we can do nothing, or we can try to communicate logic and reason. Then again, I've had folks tell me that trying to communicate isn't "the high road."

ArfinGreebly
April 13, 2008, 03:52 AM
"I don't need this right now."
O'RLY?

Her name is "Susan," right?

Susan, I'm sorry, but I hate to see my friends fooled.

If you believe that disarming protects you, then you've been fooled. If you believe the police can be there in time to be of any use at all, you've been fooled. If you think for one moment that a psychotic sociopath will spare you because you turn the other cheek, you've been fooled.

I'd hate to have you hurt because you were fooled into being gentle with violent murderers.

Susan, you're a smart girl. If you're going to let people fool you this badly, at least make them work harder for it.

Mr White
April 13, 2008, 09:03 AM
I don't even know what to do. I just want to bang my head on the wall. Nah, bang her head on the wall. You'll feel better and you just might knock some sense into her. :D

Hokkmike
April 13, 2008, 09:57 AM
Give her some time and space. She is dealing with two separate issues.

fearless leader
April 13, 2008, 10:16 AM
Be sensitive to her grief. At you earliest opportunity, invite her to the range.

Be friendly, understand she is grieving in her heart for a loss and wants to blame something.

I have gotten some ardent supporters of gun control to feel the personal empowerment over evil people you get with proficiency with arms.

My Sister, likely being the worst. She did not like guns, shooters, or the fact that anyone wandering around with arms could indescriminantly take her life.

When a girl a few blocks from her was raped and viciously assaulted in her home after getting off of the school bus, she wanted me to teach her daughters how to shoot. She attended the lessons herself, saying "this is fun."

Now that she lives in the Orlando area, which is becoming quite the combat zone, she told me to get her a gun. I though I would do cartwheels!! I have been working on her for years, but now she understands that with arms, she has a "say so" over the violent criminal's plans toward her. SHE IS EMPOWERED TO PROTECT HERSELF! She now personaly owns 2 handguns and a big bore rifle.

I hope this helps.:)

chupacabrah
April 13, 2008, 10:51 AM
i think your response was well worded. after her "friend" comment, I would be done with her and rack it up as not worth my time.

cracked butt
April 13, 2008, 11:02 AM
To paraphrase Chris Rock- "You're not equiped to argue with them because you have a need to make sense."

AKCOP
April 13, 2008, 11:10 AM
Don't know how many times I have felt like this, angry and without hope that people just will never get it. I tend to turn inward and then after a few days come out of it knowing that it is people like us who are willing to have a logical unemmotional discussion about these issues that wll make a difference. You never know who you will have a positive impact on. I have found some of the hardest nuts to crack usually get the message away from those that presented it. Plant the seed and walk away, water it with continued friendship and it may sprout and thrive. Don't give up, don't ever give up.

.cheese.
April 13, 2008, 11:12 AM
Rob87 - from my experiences, "I don't need this right now." means she's pissed off that she isn't just easily getting her way... is probably used to getting her way... and will likely make your life a living hell until you give in to her way.

The fact that she used "friend" in quotes like that was a threat from a manipulative young woman who would happily threaten to end a friendship unless you give in to her ideology.

$20 says that once she crosses over to the "not friends" stage, she will use every last thing she knows about you and your support of the 2A to publicly try to intimidate and humiliate you on facebook, maybe even going so far as to make a false report about you to school officials assuming you two go to the same school. "I know he is into guns and wants to bring guns on campus Mr. Dean of Students. I just thought you should know."

Don't respond. Just cut it off and let her go on with her manipulative ways - with other people.

Just my $0.02 - from somebody who has had enough of dealing with manipulative women.

You don't need a friend like that.

Travis Lee
April 13, 2008, 11:52 AM
She's not just manipulative, she's let her whole thinking be manipulated by people in "The cause".

Lacking any real "enemy" to lash out at, she'll direct her emo-storm at you.

I agree with Cheese... watch yourself.

--Travis--

1911Tuner
April 13, 2008, 11:57 AM
"I don't need this right now."

You may translate that to:

"My mind is made up, and I will not allow anything factual, sensible, or logical to interfere with that process."

Blackbeard
April 13, 2008, 11:59 AM
She's probably more angry than you are, because deep down she knows you're right. She doesn't want you to be right. She doesn't want to live in a world where you might have to kill someone to survive. That's a fact of life and she's transferring her anger over that reality to you for pointing it out.

papajohn
April 13, 2008, 12:02 PM
Rob87, LOTS of good input here, I'll keep this short.

She's hurting, and wants to lay blame somewhere. Thanks to the MSM, a gun is already seen by many as a sign of evil. It can't argue back, can't debate, can't defend itself, it just sits there, looking evil, so it makes a convenient scapegoat. But don't give up on her. I'm guessing she's relatively young, and somewhat naive. In time she will likely come to realize that all your points were salient, even if they offer no comfort. Liberal at 20, conservative at 40, etc. "I don't need this right now" indicates overload, too many concepts that refuse to mesh. "If you were my friend you'd tell me I'm right and validate my feelings". You wouldn't, and she's hurt by your cold logic, that's not what she wanted right then. Give it time, keep pointing out the fallacies of her stance, and be patient. Logic and emotion don't get along too well, but when she's feeling less empassioned, the logic can sneak in there and open her eyes. Be gently persuasive, and firm. It takes time.

PJ

Hardware
April 13, 2008, 12:10 PM
She did not actually want your opinion. She was checking to make sure your opinion validated her opinion. When you did not, it was similar to a slap in the face. I've dealt with the type plenty of times in the past. From the brief description she's immature, manipulative and passive aggressive. I agree that she may sneak around behind your back to the authorities or attack you on facebook. The internet is the coward's battleground. Best case scenario she may mature and grow out of this. Worst case she may stay in the extended adolescent state most BNs stay in for their whole life. Your choice if you want to continue associating with her.

I'm a big proponent of "ripping off the bandaid" and making a clean break. Continuing to associate with her will be like salt in her emotional wound and just make you a convenient target for her to vent her feelings upon. Coincidentally, just like Cho conveniently vented all his feelings on his classmates at VT.

Guillermo
April 13, 2008, 12:19 PM
This person is obviously too far gone to save. Sadly she will probably have to survive an attack to change her mind.

For those that are hyperemotional I like to ask them if they love their mother. Of course the answer is “yes”. Then I ask them if there mother had a chance against Hulk Hogan in a fist fight. Of course they say “no” (they usually at this point they start to run off at the mouth so you have to shush them)

Then you ask if Hogan could kill their mom before the police could respond. (you see where I am going here)

But if Mom is properly armed old Hulky is a leaking carcass on the floor. Dear old Mom is safe, shaky but safe.

The purpose here is to use their emotions to sway them. Make it personal. If you cannot convince them you can at least tease them. when the subject comes up proclaim that they hate their mother. In addition to irritating them, others often ask what you are talking about. It gives you a second bite at the apple and sometime help to sway the anti.

I knew one who succumbed to the peer presure. Took a break-in to change her mind but until that point she kept her shrill mouth shut.

armoredman
April 13, 2008, 12:22 PM
When they do a "lie in", do a "stand up" at the same time/place, with a sign stating, "I represent the 2 million times people in the United States are protected by firearms each year."

amprecon
April 13, 2008, 12:26 PM
If she really wants justice, and for her friends to not have died in vain, she needs to ensure that her and every other student is never left defenseless again. That the Security officers and police are inept at stopping these situations from happening and that it's up to each and every individual to protect themselves and each other.
It should be her duty, if she really cares about her friends, to petition the school board and state legislature to never again allow them to be so vulnerable and unable to defend themselves again.

Clipper
April 13, 2008, 12:38 PM
Henry, that's a great response. I was thinking about the irony about how she uses her 1A rights to try to infringe on the rights of the 2A.

The really ironic thing is that most of us would exercise our 2A rights, fight and die in defense of her right to use her 1A rights to try to take our 2A rights away from us...

When they do a "lie in", do a "stand up" at the same time/place, with a sign stating, "I represent the 2 million times people in the United States are protected by firearms each year."

Or 'lie in' with them, prominently wearing an empty holster. Maybe with a little headstone with something to the effect that you were 'killed' by a 'gun free' policy...

bogie
April 13, 2008, 01:31 PM
"I represent the 2 million times people in the United States are protected by firearms each year."

FAIL!

WHY do folks persist in trying to use complete sentences for stuff like this? It it's more than 3-5 words, forget it.

My sign suggestions: "Gun Free Zones Kill," "Disarmed Victim," or "Killed by School Policy." Think simple. Think big lettering. Easy to read, easy to photograph.

Anyone have any ideas on how to counter the protests that are happening in three days?

Just had a thought - if ONE person shows up with an empty holster and tries to participate in the "die-in," they'll paint him as a "he who should be without a name" wannabee. You need a bunch. OR you need a bunch of folks, with empty holsters, with signs, to stand by each victim. "Prevented from Protecting" might be a good one. Or make up some small folding signs, and place them by each victim. You'll need to get your counterprotest okayed by the campus first - you KNOW that the Brady folks have organized and planned this for months. You've got two days. Get it together on Monday, or you'll likely have security non-photogenically removing "the crazy gun nuts."

sublimaze41
April 13, 2008, 04:12 PM
I admire people's passion even if it misguided in my opinion.

Funny, I love to see this type of passion when it comes to RKBA issues........problem is I would like to see more of it.

Excuse me, it's tough to type when I am clinging to my bible and guns(insert bitterness):barf:

pinstripe
April 13, 2008, 04:25 PM
Your friend is thinking with her heart, not her head. I am always telling my children that to avoid confusion you must know the difference between thinking with your head and feeling with your heart. Your heart is incapable of thinking and when you use it instead of your head for a purpose that it was not designed for, then confusion sets in. That is why she stated to you that she " didn't need this right now". She is not motivated by thinking, or common sense, but by feelings and she lets emotions rule the day. Some folks will never see the truth, no matter how hard others try to help them. Good luck with your friendship. Talking gun control with an anti is like talking politics to a Democrat. They will only see what they are "programmed" to see.

armoredman
April 13, 2008, 04:43 PM
FAIL!
Yikes, sorry to offend!


http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/2008_01_23t113101_450x349_us_kitten.jpg

Aguila Blanca
April 13, 2008, 04:55 PM
Her response, "I don't need this right now," is a statement that she is in a state of total denial. What that says is, "My intellect recognizes that you are correct but it challenges what I have chosen to believe, and therefore you are an S.O.B. for putting my mental circuits into overload. How dare you ask me to be rational? Buzz off."

mek42
April 13, 2008, 06:01 PM
Being blown off like that from someone you thought was a good friend kind of sucks. Be different if she said, "Well, let's agree to disagree" or something like that - you don't need to be converting each other or anything and still be friends, but that blow off was kinda harsh.

Good luck and I hope everything goes well for you.

Funderb
April 13, 2008, 06:12 PM
The obvious solution is written on the bottom of a fifth of Jack Daniels.

You win some, and then there are the other people you ignore.

The Unknown User
April 13, 2008, 06:21 PM
$20 says that once she crosses over to the "not friends" stage, she will use every last thing she knows about you and your support of the 2A to publicly try to intimidate and humiliate you on facebook, maybe even going so far as to make a false report about you to school officials assuming you two go to the same school. "I know he is into guns and wants to bring guns on campus Mr. Dean of Students. I just thought you should know."
I was actually getting paranoid that she'd do something like that.

But, I have a few things in my favor: I have no criminal record, I have a clean driving record, and if campus police ever pulls me aside, I won't have any contraband on me.

Sure, she could cause me some problems, but nothing that would scar me for life, right?

.cheese.
April 13, 2008, 06:35 PM
I was actually getting paranoid that she'd do something like that.

But, I have a few things in my favor: I have no criminal record, I have a clean driving record, and if campus police ever pulls me aside, I won't have any contraband on me.


Wonderful. Then ultimately if it comes to that, you'll likely be let off the hook. I still wouldn't push it with that girl though. No offense.

Sure, she could cause me some problems, but nothing that would scar me for life, right?

For life? Probably not. You'd be amazed however, at the amount of damage a manipulative young woman is capable of. Psychological, emotional, or otherwise.

I speak from experience. That's one crazy train I disembarked from a few years ago. It still haunts me in my dreams. (no joke)

Gary Frost
April 13, 2008, 06:55 PM
Go th the lie in and walk around with a sign that says I was armed, I didn't die.

cassandrasdaddy
April 13, 2008, 08:10 PM
if it makes you this mad she must be cute. wait till you get married someday and look upon this deal as a "good day"

vynx
April 14, 2008, 01:00 AM
Try explaing to her that inanimate objects aren't the problem a person can kill with a hammer after all...the problem is mental and cultural and maybe if these people who kill had some kind of mental health treatment (I know some have but obviously not enough) at an early enough age and it was available until they were better maybe that would be a better solution.

I think you cannot reason with this kind of person but maybe you can steer them in another direction - she obviously needs a "cause" in her life.

Try to make that cause "early intervention", "birth to age 5 programs" ,"pre-school", "at risk youth" or any kind of menytal health program - something that will keep her illogical mind busy.

I've actually been successful in explaining the problem is not the gun it is the person - would you feel save with this person carrying a hammer or steak knife on campus? No, then solve the problem which is this person has a mental health problem.

The Unknown User
April 14, 2008, 01:06 AM
Wonderful. Then ultimately if it comes to that, you'll likely be let off the hook. I still wouldn't push it with that girl though. No offense.
No offense taken. I'm going to back off for now.

I basically told her I support her right to protest, and to stand up for what she believes in, but that I'd prefer to only discuss he matter with her after the week is over, when I'm assuming she'll be under less emotional stress.

For life? Probably not. You'd be amazed however, at the amount of damage a manipulative young woman is capable of. Psychological, emotional, or otherwise.

I speak from experience. That's one crazy train I disembarked from a few years ago. It still haunts me in my dreams. (no joke)
My ex was like that. Thinking about her still bothers me.

if it makes you this mad she must be cute. wait till you get married someday and look upon this deal as a "good day"
hahaha :D

Wait, I think you were serious. ;)

dmazur
April 14, 2008, 02:27 AM
I think I'm more angry because she's chosen the "dark side." She's a nice person, so it sucks to see her choosing the emotional, rhetorical, feel good side, rather than the side that uses fact, logic, and the Constituation.

I'm sure there will be many more friends I lose in the future. Such is life.

Yes, but someday you may meet a nice girl that actually agrees with you.

I know I get a nice warm feeling inside when I hear my wife screaming about the latest nonsense being spouted by one of our candidates. (Like something about bitter...guns...religion?)

We are going to have a quiet little celebration after (if?) the favorable SCOTUS ruling this summer.

So, don't waste time on the fruit loops out there. You deserve better.

The Unknown User
April 14, 2008, 04:09 PM
Actually, that must be nice to have someone agree with you, especially when that person is a significant other.

If you notice what I filled out in the "Location:" field to the left of this paragraph, I'm sure you know where I'm going with this.

And what is "SCOTUS"? I've heard the acronym before but haven't gotten around to looking into ut.

Wait...Heller vs. DC is supposed to be ruled on over the summer I'm told. Supreme Court of the United States.

Damn, I'm stupid. :P

MarcusWendt
April 14, 2008, 04:36 PM
I find it very interesting that so many think that our way is the only way. If she doesn't agree with you, she's not a friend? If she gets angry at you she's not a friend?

She's lost someone she cared about. She has a right to feel however she wants to. Her rights to feel the way she feels are just as important as your right to feel the way you do. You both know where each other stands, let it go.

If all wee knew and liked were people who agree with us, it would make for a pretty boring world.

Be sympathetic to her loss. Lead by example. Be the good friend who's a gun owner. You can be supportive of her without supporting her position.

CountGlockula
April 14, 2008, 04:41 PM
What about organizing a "counter" protest?

ambush
April 14, 2008, 04:52 PM
Rob, don't feel too bad. I have a sister who thinks the same way. How can I ditch my sister?? I can't. We agree to disagree, that's all.

NG VI
April 14, 2008, 05:12 PM
You did what you could, your response to her was not in any way out of line, you weren't pressuring her or saying anything remotely controversial (unless you consider stating that murderers break laws an earthshaking and blasphemous claim), yet she for some reason got very upset at you for offering a different solution to the same problem than she did. The question is, "how do we limit the destruction caused by a rampaging individual?"

Her group's idea is that they will create a magical fairyland where no one will ever be hurt by anyone else ever again, because there won't be any guns!.
Pro-CCW, pro-human rights, proactive response is that people will hurt each other no matter what. nothing will ever change that short of massively drugging the entire population, so the only reasonable thing to do is to allow people to take responsibility for their own safety.

She got deeply offended from a very gently-worded and even supportive letter. Nothing to be done. One of you supports both of your rights. One of you doesn't like the idea that you have all your rights, and is offended when you exercised an unrelated right (speech, with your letter to her).

Derek Zeanah
April 14, 2008, 05:14 PM
SCOTUS = Supreme Court of the United States

ZombiesAhead
April 14, 2008, 05:35 PM
"I don't need [common sense/rational thought/an unemotional response] right now"

2nd 41
April 14, 2008, 05:37 PM
So why are you angry? She's entitled to her opinions. Just because you disagree is no reason to be angry.
-
I agree. Try to respect her views & opinions....and she should respect yours. Stay friends.

Dr. Peter Venkman
April 14, 2008, 07:04 PM
In case you haven't noticed 2nd 41, she is protesting his right to bear arms. It trancends friendships into the realm of lunacy.

Stand your ground rob; if she cuts and runs, her loss. Show up to her little 'protest' with one of your own; the member who suggested wearing a sign that says "I was armed and I lived" would be great.

The Unknown User
April 14, 2008, 07:17 PM
Thanks for all of the responses. To make a few points more clear:

- I respect her 1A rights. I support her right to protest.

- I do not support her right to infringe on my 2A rights. I know what the BoR says.

- I feel very sorry for her. I can't imagine losing a friend like that.

- However, me feeling sorry for her isn't going to let her trample my 2A rights.

I don't agree with the purpose of what she's doing, but I agree, in principle, that she should be able to do it.

tntwatt
April 14, 2008, 07:43 PM
The problem is that right now she is still angry and confused over the death of her friend. Unfortunately this is exactly when the anti-gun folks pounce. Anger is one of the natural stages of dealing with death. During this stage a person is very limited in their ability to rationalize and see truth. That's why the anti-gun advocates pounce at this time. Once a person has dealt with the anger and moves on to acceptance, their rational thought once again becomes prevalent. You have done your job as a friend well. You have planted the seed of doubt, it is now up to her.
Unfortunately the whole goal of this protest is to increase and keep her anger and pain in the front of her mind so she won't think rationally about guns. They will try at this time to convert her to totally irrational thought for the rest of her life. They always take the low road and exploit people's pain to accomplish their goals.
She sounds like someone that could use calm advice. If you make her aware of these things she may come around. If she doesn't, she will probably become one of the irrational anti-gun fanatics.

tntwatt
April 14, 2008, 07:46 PM
don't forget that no matter how good a friend she is and no matter what her reasons are, she is about to actually participate in a protest against your rights.

Guillermo
April 14, 2008, 08:18 PM
If one is to be close with another you must be simpatico on core values. Liberty and freedom are among my core values. I choose not have close personal relationships with sheeple. Of course I do not have as many close friends as some but those that I do are excellent. In my opinion, this policy has served me well.

I offer this as a way to explain that perhaps this is for the best.

BruceRDucer
April 14, 2008, 08:55 PM
Hey Rob87

Don't let the turkeys get you down.

After a lifetime of active writing and dialogue, my assessment of mankind is that only a small portion of the population is actually RATIONAL.

The uses of reason are a precise discipline, and I am convinced that most people function on a kind of chemistry, rather than exercising the discipline of logic.

So don't feel bad. Such reasonings, as your friend exhibits, which seem to expect mankind to simply turn into passive sheep, with no sensible indication how this is to be established by law or general acceptance. It leaves us all shaking our heads.

Or worse, doing this: :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

So....get a nice drink and watch a good movie er sumpthin.:):)

SinistralRifleman
April 14, 2008, 09:03 PM
organize people and counter protest. people who want to deny you your liberty and property are not your friends.

doc2rn
April 14, 2008, 09:29 PM
I had a friend that had a knee jerk reaction like this after VT. He had been shooting with me a couple of times and was on the fence. His GF was anti- all the way. I invited them over for pizza & beer with a movie. I took my Glock out and put it on the table in front of me.
GF goes balistic, and says dont you know those things kill people.
Me: "really" shouts at the gun "Kill, Fire, Shoot, and Murder"
GF: what are you doing?
Me: I just wanted to see if an inanimate object could do what you said.
GF: you know what I mean.
Me: no it is just a hunk of metal without someone with grey matter to handle it.
GF: Mouth hanging open
Dude Friend: Picks it up, clears it, hands it to her,
GF: mouth still open through the whole movie stares at the gun in her lap.
Dude Friend: picks it up at the end of the movie and says Gun laws dont work sweety because bad guys dont obey the laws.
Me: we shootin' tommorrow?
Dude Friend: of course and we may have one more.
Next day she showed up and shot my Ruger Standard.

lamazza
April 14, 2008, 09:42 PM
Drop her-she is going to be an unreliable friend some day. Friends should be assets and not liabilities.

Guillermo
April 14, 2008, 09:47 PM
Lamazza was so much more succinct than I.

Nice shot Lamazza…in the 10 ring

TimboKhan
April 14, 2008, 09:51 PM
I say, JOIN the protest.

(but don't lie down)

Instead, stand upright in the midst of the "dead bodies", holding a sign that reads, "Murderous Sociopaths Prefer Disarmed Victims."

Let THEM help to illustrate OUR point.

Done with a modicum of courtesy, this really isn't that bad of an idea. The problem with this idea is simply that it will come off as being horrifically insensitive to the VT victims, which will not play well in the media at all. That the protestors are trying to trade off of those dead kids, which is equally insensitive in my opinion, will get overlooked because they appear to be showing support to the families as opposed to us evil gun owners.

As far as dropping her as a friend... hmm. I know I won't date or potentially marry someone who is anti-2A. I know that all of my friends are, to one degree or another, pro-gun or at least are not anti-gun. I know that some of them, specifically my best friend of the last 20 years, are also Democrats, and by voting the way that they do, they put my 2A rights in jeopardy. It hasn't affected friendships to date, and I don't think it will. If, on the other hand, one of them started actively protesting guns, I would probably shy away from that person. Not everyone has to agree with me, and you have a right to protest, but at a certain point, I would have to ask myself if I want to associate with someone who hates something so important to me. On the surface this might seem a bit petty, but replace guns with "abortion" or "Black people" or "Homosexuals", and all of a sudden it seems less petty. Few (I would hope none) of us would have a friend that was a white supremacist, right? If your feelings were particularly strong on abortion, it would be hard for someone whose views were counter to yours to be a friend, right? If your gay, your probably going to actively avoid associating with homophobes, right? My friends and I disagree with a lot of stuff, and I am sure that is the same with everyone and their pals, but we don't cross certain lines in the sand, which is what makes the friendships work. One of my lines happens to be guns, and I honestly don't think I could be friends with someone who desires to take away something that both in reality and in principle is so important to me. The simple fact is that being a gunny is part of what defines who I am. Take away my guns, you take away a big part of me.

brigadier
April 15, 2008, 01:18 AM
Ask her to show you a list of mass shootings that took place in the US in places other then gun free zones since they were first introduced.

SpeedAKL
April 15, 2008, 01:22 AM
If she cannot at least agree to disagree with you in a civil manner or hear you out, you're certainly justified in questioning the depth of your friendship with her....particularly since she dissed you like that in a public forum.

akodo
April 15, 2008, 01:54 AM
I think you have her on the fence, that is why she is defaulting to 'defensive mode'

Write her off as a friend if you like, but push her. I'd rather have an enemy who votes pro RKBA than a friend who votes gun control.

challenge her beliefs more, forcefully but not rudely. At least you don't have to worry about stepping on toes now.

Ask her if she has ever fired a gun, challenge her that if this is her cause, she deserves to gather as much knowledge and facts on the issue as possible.

hit her with the Socrates line of "Do we have this discussion, this argument, to see who wins, or do we set our egos aside and strive to find truth?"

Pilgrim
April 15, 2008, 02:47 AM
As time goes by, you will recognize there is a difference between 'friends' and 'acquaintances'.

Pilgrim

gunshow
April 15, 2008, 03:02 AM
Trying to reason with these women who run PEG :rolleyes:

Why do people focus on exceptions and IGNORE the rule, just because the rule is politically incorrect? Cowardice? Yep. The RULE is that this war to save our guns is a war mostly between men and women. It's not pleasant to say, and the politically correct crowd will cringe but it's true. I don't want to hear about the EXCEPTIONS to the rule, the handful of women shooters, or the puny second amendment sisters (who do a LOT of good by the way because they're so vocal and our society only listens to women now). The original post reminded us that "protest easy guns" is run and operated almost exclusively by women. The original poster is even FRIENDS with her and she won't listen one bit.

I think the only way to beat these women at "protest easy guns" is to show up and have a counter demonstration and be LOUDER than them (it's all they listen to).
Her response:

"I don't need this right now." She then followed this with a comment about me being a "friend." Yes, it was in quotes.
That said it all and encapsulated the problem.

Bubbles
April 15, 2008, 11:16 AM
Quote from bogie:
WHY do folks persist in trying to use complete sentences for stuff like this? It it's more than 3-5 words, forget it.

My sign suggestions: "Gun Free Zones Kill," "Disarmed Victim," or "Killed by School Policy." Think simple. Think big lettering. Easy to read, easy to photograph.


Obviously you're an experienced protester. I really like the last one, and in fact it could be shortened to "Killed by VT Policy". Print it in big letters, and get it on the news. :evil:

Just a thought on the OP's friend. Many anti orgs have infiltrated "grief counselor" groups. These folks are well known for contacting the families and friends of shooting victims, and subverting the people to the gun-grabbing cause while they're still in the early stages of grief, and looking to lash out at something to make the pain go away. Personally, I find the practice disgusting and reprehensible, and would never be a party to it. If the OP's friend is being influenced by such people, there's probably not a lot he can do to reason with her until she's past her grief.

ArfinGreebly
April 15, 2008, 04:05 PM
Taking just a moment to remark on the "friend" aspect of this . . .

Some several years ago, my daughter was going through a "friend crisis" and asked me how you know who's a real friend.

"A friend is someone who cares how your life turns out."

I've just never found a better answer.

So, does this "friend" care?

I understand that you care.

But it looks pretty one-sided.

You care about her well-being, her protection, her rights, and her liberties.

And she cares about . . . ?

Just a different perspective is all.

The Unknown User
April 15, 2008, 06:25 PM
Arfin, that's such an amazing quote. :)

cassandrasdaddy
April 15, 2008, 08:17 PM
if a girl can make you thaty mad get married make it official

XLMiguel
April 15, 2008, 09:46 PM
Bluntly, she's a coward who doesn't want to take responsibility for her own life, wants somebody else to make life safe for her:barf:

As noted, life is tough, it ain't fair, and there are no guarantees. There is evil in the world. Why on earth does she think that more laws will change anything, when everything the BGs did was already illegal? There's an old saying to the efect that, " When values are sufficient, laws are unnecessary. When values are insufficient, laws are irrelevant."

Ask her if she's against guns, why is it that the first person she's going to call when trouble comes around is someone [cop] with a gun to save her sorry@$$. She won't fight for her own life, but she expects some underpaid civil servant to do it for her. I'm not saying she should get a gun, but I am saying she has a very fundamental decision to make - are you going to fight or are you going to be food?

Arfin said it well - 'a friend is omeone who care how your life turns out.' Sometimes that means telling you things you don't want to hear, but really, really need to hear:banghead:

mccook8
April 15, 2008, 11:13 PM
Done with a modicum of courtesy, this really isn't that bad of an idea. The problem with this idea is simply that it will come off as being horrifically insensitive to the VT victims, which will not play well in the media at all. That the protestors are trying to trade off of those dead kids, which is equally insensitive in my opinion, will get overlooked because they appear to be showing support to the families as opposed to us evil gun owners.

The primary benefit of the tactic I outlined is that it either forces the media to show OUR side of the argument, or at least stops them from being able to use the other side all by its lonesome in that one instance.

...and it does so far more effectively than holding our OWN rallies, which would merely go unreported.

(not that the media would be BIASED, or anything....)

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