discrimination at the gun store/show?


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againstthagrane
April 13, 2008, 11:55 AM
it may just be me, but it seems that 75% of the employees at gun stores i frequent are downright racist. the only one that i've found in the area that isn't is the DFW indoor shooting range.
granted i'm not your typical gun nut. i'm not white (not to generalize, but lets be realistic) i'm young and most of the time i feel like i know more about the guns being sold than the employees.
when i was looking for an HK p2000sk after they first came out i went to several gun stores that flat out refused to order me one in the configuration i wanted. most of them gave me BS excuses like "It would be faster if you ordered it straight from them" or "we don't do special orders". the latter was from an old miserable looking guy at bass pro shops. the funny thing is i called in a few days later and the woman i spoke to was more than happy to call her distributor and quote me a special order price.
the bullettrap in plano has got to be the most blatant about their racism. they will pretty much crap on any gun you mention that isn't made in the US or by dark people in another part of the world like beretta and taurus. lol.
i just want to know if i'm alone or if anyone else gets the "potential al qaeda look when going to certain gun shops.
i'm not even going to go to much into the whole gun show aspect of the situation other than saying how i'm not surprised that i've experienced racism in the same place where they sell old photos of blacks being lynched for $15 a pop. you'd have to be a seriously sick individual to hang up a picture of someone getting killed in your house. what's next? holocaust pictures? firing line aftermath photos?
rant over.:cuss:

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El Tejon
April 13, 2008, 12:04 PM
I'm O.K. in Texas gun shoppes, until I open my mouth.:D

"I say, I say, y'all be talking funny, strange, not like us, I say, I say.":neener:

No, never experienced it, but those reports from down there just break my heart. One would like to think that the gun culture is united by our love of liberty that would trump all inane, backwards concepts such as ethnic/racial discrimination.:(

Only one way to fight it and that is to make people understand that it is wrong and not in their best interest to behave this way. Change the culture, change the world.

The Lone Haranguer
April 13, 2008, 12:08 PM
This is me:

http://www.slrobertson.com/images/usa/georgia/atlanta/white-lily.jpg
;)

But, I've personally encountered, seen, heard of or read of these kinds of bad attitudes before (and not just in gun shops or shows), and plenty of members have their own stories. So I am uncertain how much of this can be directly attributed to racism.

againstthagrane
April 13, 2008, 12:11 PM
white FLOWER!!! haha

Blackbeard
April 13, 2008, 12:15 PM
Being a white northerner, I can't really appreciate what that must be like. I can only say that there are plenty of idiots to go around. My only advice would be to make sure your appearance is that of an upstanding citizen. If that doesn't work try a cowboy hat. :D

I'm completely disgusted that anyone would sell lynching photos in this day and age, even in the south. Someone get these people a calendar.

rantingredneck
April 13, 2008, 12:15 PM
I was at the Greensboro, NC gunshow a couple months back and was trying to sell one of my handguns. I'd walked around for a couple hours with it on my hip and had had a couple of inquiries. Then a fellow stopped me in one of the aisles asking about it. He was really interested. As we were talking the fellow running the table we had stopped in front of (mind you we'd only been there about 30 - 60 seconds by this point) asked us to move along so we weren't blocking his customers. He was selling turquoise jewelry........at a gun show......but that's beside the point. It was also the way in which he addressed the issue. He wasn't looking at me (the one potentially selling a gun in front of his booth), he was staring straight at my potential buyer and his friend. I got the distinct impression that if the fellow I was talking to had not been black the turquoise vendor would not have acted that way. We walked over to the food court area and completed our transaction. I have to say the fellow who bought my gun reacted well. He just smiled sadly and shook his head.

MT GUNNY
April 13, 2008, 12:21 PM
Do you everr ask to see a manager or the owner when stuf like this happens?

Call prior to going to see if they can order then go in with info you got on the phone to be one step ahead of them.

ClickClickD'oh
April 13, 2008, 12:25 PM
i'm not even going to go to much into the whole gun show aspect of the situation other than saying how i'm not surprised that i've experienced racism in the same place where they sell old photos of blacks being lynched for $15 a pop

I'm calling BS on you right now. I have never seen such a thing sold at a gunshow in the D/FW metroplex.

Did you ever happen to think that the reason Bass Pro wouldn't special order an HK p2000sk for you is because Bass Pro in general does not like dealing with compact pistols? How many other compact pistols have you ever seen at Bass Pro?

I also happen to know the folks over at the Bullet Trap personally. They may overcharge their range memberships, but they certainly aren't racist people. I've bought Berettas, Glocks and CZs from them so I guess you theory of geographic production racism is all washed up isn't it?

I think your problem may stem more from your attitude then it does from a latent racist streak in the shooting sports industry.


PS, Beretta is an Italian company, but most of their pistols are made in the US..

rantingredneck
April 13, 2008, 12:25 PM
This is me:




Yep, Lily White. Me too. :lol:

papajohn
April 13, 2008, 12:27 PM
I think "Lily White" was the intention there........................(So Am I!)

I work armed security in the inner city, in an office building that is split about 50/50, in racial terms. Most folks know me as a diehard shooter/guncrank, and we often talk about hunting and self defense, calibers and ballistics. But lately I've noticed that most folks that are asking me gun questions are the non-whites. They want to know where I shoot, club dues, what's a good gun, or a fair price. I won't say they're coming over to the Conservative side, but they know the risks of living in the city, and they are not about to let some gangsta wannabe ruin what they've worked so hard for. Race has nothing to do with it, a punk is a punk, and they hate the criminals as much as anyone else.

I am quite happy to guide them to good websites (like this one) and good stores, and share anything I can. After all, this is the flock I was hired to protect, and I do that any way I can. It's too bad that so many people see only skin color when making judgements. In my case, the more armed sheep I have in my flock, the easier they are to protect!

PJ

againstthagrane
April 13, 2008, 12:41 PM
i can appreciate the advice blackbeard, but i was wearing what i always wear on my free time. jeans and a t-shirt and possibly a baseball cap. having worked in retail i can say from first hand experience that people will surprise you. the guy wearing a t-shirt and shorts is just as likely to drop $5000 in your store as the guy in a pinstripe suit and $300 loafers.
most of the times i've felt discriminated against i've just decided to forgo (sp.?) the manager and make a statement with where i spend my money.
the bullet trap for example. i went shopping for my first gun there a couple of times and both times i didn't like what i heard or the looks i received so i chose to never shop there or shoot there. whether they know it or not, they've lost thousands in firearm and range sales.
i AM a big fan of calling ahead now though. its still pretty funny to hear peoples voices crack a little when i tell them my name over the phone (if i'm putting something on hold, etc.)

Just Jim
April 13, 2008, 12:42 PM
Time to shut this thread down, it isn't the high road. ( I seen a liberal ask for it yesterday so I am asking today.)

PPGMD
April 13, 2008, 12:51 PM
the guy wearing a t-shirt and shorts is just as likely to drop $5000 in your store as the guy in a pinstripe suit and $300 loafers.

Bingo, people don't go to gun shops or the range in their Sunday best. Because chances are it's going to get grease, lube, or gun powder residue on it.

I don't notice too much racism here, but they do judge you by your cloths, but they aren't looking for your Sunday best. White or black, if you come into the store having to pull up your pants every two minutes they aren't going to treat you very seriously.

DerbyDale
April 13, 2008, 12:53 PM
75% is a really high number... I'm not sure if I believe that.

I have seen people (myself included) treated differently because of the following. None of it I would call racism, it's still wrong, but its just how things are.

How you were dressed?
Were you dressed like a hobo who couldn't afford what you were looking at? Sometimes sales people think you are a waist of their time, and they will loose anohter potential sale while "talking" with you. They get allot of lookie-lou's in there who never buy. When I was a kid in school I worked at a Radio Shack. I did get to the point where 80-90% of the time, I could tell who was there to buy, and who was a waist of time. I have also been treated like this recently when I was wearing weekend yard work clothes. Come back a few days later dressed a little nicer, and its a whole new experience.

Were you dressed like a gang member? Some people are just intimidated by "scary looking" individuals. There was a recent post here of a white guy who got treated poorly in a gun shop, becasue of all his tattoo's and ruff appearance (and he was ruff with a revolver).

How was your attitude?
You didn't come into the shop with the attitude of; I'm not a white guy so watch out! I know I don't have time for people like that. Same as with white people with the same attitude. I don't care what color their skin is... I will just ignore them and not give them the time of day. The race card gets old, be it the Black Card, the White Card, or a Brown Card... I'm just tied of it...

Or the attitude of:
I know more about this stuff that you DumbA****! I cant tell you the number of people I've seen with know-it-all attitudes at gun shops who try to belittle the people there. Then they get mad and don't understand when they are refused anymore assistance or asked to leave.


I just don't believe racism is as prevalent as it used to be. If it was, Obama would not be where he is today. I wont vote for him, not because of his color, but because I don't like his views on most things. I guess I'm one of those "bitter small town people".

againstthagrane
April 13, 2008, 12:53 PM
"'m calling BS on you right now. I have never seen such a thing sold at a gunshow in the D/FW metroplex."

well if YOU haven't seen it, then it must not be true. i didn't realize we had omniscient members on this board. while i have your ear, what is the meaning of life? btw, they had them at the gun show at will rogers about a month ago. believe it or not...

"Did you ever happen to think that the reason Bass Pro wouldn't special order an HK p2000sk for you is because Bass Pro in general does not like dealing with compact pistols? How many other compact pistols have you ever seen at Bass Pro?"

they had compact revolvers and berettas at the time i asked for the special order. why would that matter anyways? they are an HK dealer. why would they just not order compact models? obviously its not an issue for them since the lady was more than willing to do so the second time i requested the order.

i'm glad you've had good experiences with the bullet trap, but myself and ALL of my shooting buddies refuse to go there anymore because of their nazi-like range policies and holier-than-though attitudes to just about any young person that walks in through the door.

i meant "brown" foreign countries. darker complexioned people. italians. it wasn't meant to be taken totally literally. i'm not going to explain that any further. beretta may make some of their weapons in america, but i doubt that they make MOST them here. mine cleary says "made in italy" on the side. either way, they're an italian company.

cz is a czech company and therefore would be acceptable under the bullet trap regime.

i'm not familiar with the term "lily white", can someone help me out?

El Tejon
April 13, 2008, 12:54 PM
PP, depends on what the clothing says about the man. As a former commissioned gun salesman, I know that the guys in the Carhart jackets or overalls is likely a construction/pipe fitter/ etc. who: 1. has cash in his pocket, 2. wants to buy a gun, so be real nice to him you'll make bonus.:D

I can make generalizations about other clothing, but that's another thread.:D

againstthagrane
April 13, 2008, 12:57 PM
i was dressed like a gang member in my diesel jeans and fitted t-shirt. if by gang member you mean trendy yuppie.

Just Jim
April 13, 2008, 12:57 PM
This thread is about racism and has nothing to do with guns. Most people in the USA are not racist so to brand gun people as racist isn't in the intrest of the High Road.

jj

El Tejon
April 13, 2008, 01:02 PM
Just, I disagree. I think airing of dirty laundry and how to correct it is the essence of The High Road.

againstthagrane
April 13, 2008, 01:02 PM
I NEVER said that gun enthusiasts are racist. i merely stated that it FEELS like many of the employees at gun shops IN MY AREA THAT I FREQUENT give off the impression of prejudice when they snub me as soon as i walk in, refuse to order things when they absolutely can, help the guy who walked in ten minutes after me when i've been waiting patiently making eye contact with the clerks waiting for my turn.

you guys need to relax and stop being so defensive.

woosah

fatelk
April 13, 2008, 01:05 PM
The older I get, the more I realize that one's perception of racism is very dependant on your perspective.
I'm part Native American (though you would never know it- very small percentage), and growing up on the Oregon coast, rather sheltered, from my perspective racism did not exist, except maybe a few nuts in the deep south or northern Idaho. From a scientific perspective, there really is no such thing as race, only physical differences in different people-groups, that really have no more inherent meaning than the color of your eyes.

That being said, as I get older I realize it's a different world for someone who has grown up seeing the ugly side of racism. They will see racism where I would not. Is this real or just perceived racism? I don't know.

I have seen very little of what I would consider racism at gun shops or shows myself, but then again this is Oregon, so maybe I'm not even qualified to add to this discussion.:)

As to the perception of racism, I really do think that more often than not people will react to the way a person talks or dresses, than the color of their skin. I'd like to think that nowadays most people realize that skin color is only skin deep.:)

acdodd
April 13, 2008, 01:07 PM
Time to shut this thread down, it isn't the high road. ( I seen a liberal ask for it yesterday so I am asking today.)

That's good. :evil:


Some people want to see racism in everything.
I'm an old white guy and I'm treated the same way.
You're not special, a lot of gun shops treat everyone like that.
AC

ClickClickD'oh
April 13, 2008, 01:14 PM
well if YOU haven't seen it, then it must not be true. i didn't realize we had omniscient members on this board.
Hey, seeing as how I'm at almost every gunshow that creeps through the metroplex, you would think I would have run into it by now.

Has anyone that lives in the metroplex, other than yourself, ever seen these?

Anyone here?

I don't think anyone has. I don't think they exist.

why would that matter anyways?Because Bass Pro doesn't deal in compact firearms. Just like they don't deal in ARs.

i'm glad you've had good experiences with the bullet trap, but myself and ALL of my shooting buddies refuse to go there anymore because of their nazi-like range policies and holier-than-though attitudes to just about any young person that walks in through the door. If it keeps me from getting shot, I can deal with strict range policies.

beretta may make some of their weapons in america, but i doubt that they make MOST them here. You really are new to this shooting thing aren't you?

Next time you are in a gun store ask to see any Beretta pistol. $100 says it has MD as place of manufacture on it.

cz is a czech company and therefore would be acceptable under the bullet trap regime.
Wow..

Yeah, I'll stick with my original theory.. It's your attitude.

againstthagrane
April 13, 2008, 01:16 PM
i don't see why people feel the need to shut down a thread just because THEY have not experienced it.

trust me, even old white guys get discriminated against. whites aren't the only race that have ignorant people among them. there are racists of all colors. unless, you have never come across anyone from another race as you then you have probably experienced it. whether you were cognizant of it is another story.

Just Jim
April 13, 2008, 01:17 PM
I NEVER said that gun enthusiasts are racist. i merely stated that it FEELS like many of the employees at gun shops IN MY AREA THAT I FREQUENT give off the impression of prejudice when they snub me as soon as i walk in, refuse to order things when they absolutely can, help the guy who walked in ten minutes after me when i've been waiting patiently making eye contact with the clerks waiting for my turn.

you guys need to relax and stop being so defensive.

woosah

The majority of American gun owners are not racist. The proof is all to obviouse yet some people have to drag their feelings of racism here to disparage gun owners.

Gun owners have fought for all Americans right to keep and bear arms. In no area of the fight have anyone ever used race as a qualifier to gun ownership.

If your feelings have been offended by someone who doesn't like you and sells guns then it should be between you and that store.

Please shut down this thread, we are not racist.

jj

againstthagrane
April 13, 2008, 01:24 PM
my beretta px4 9mm says "gardone, v.t. - made in italy" you can send your $100 to my p.o. box. i can post a picture of it if you require proof. i never said that no berettas were made in the US. especially the 92/96/m9.

i don't see how making someone wait two seconds between shots keeps you from getting shot. i shoot regularly at the dfw indoor shooting range where they have no policy on rapid fire. i'm pretty sure no one has been shot there.

"Has anyone that lives in the metroplex, other than yourself, ever seen these?

Anyone here?

I don't think anyone has. I don't think they exist."

like i said if you haven't seen them, then they must not exist:banghead:

againstthagrane
April 13, 2008, 01:27 PM
jim, you must be one of those people that doesn't listen, but just waits to talk aren't you? or you failed the reading comp. portion of the SAT.

i've clearly said MANY times, i'm not calling gun owners racist. i would never generalize an entire group of people like that. although YOUR(not every gun owner's in america) level of defensiveness even after several tries of getting you to understand this fact leads me to believe that YOU(NOT EVERY GUN OWNER IN AMERICA) have some underlying animosity towards people "pulling the race card".

ClickClickD'oh
April 13, 2008, 01:27 PM
i don't see how making someone wait two seconds between shots keeps you from getting shot.Slow fire regulations are the norm at most firing ranges in the metroplex.

Think about it for a second, you should figure out why.

ke i said if you haven't seen them, then they must not existI'll ask the general community at large again.. Has anyone here seen pictures of hanged african americans being sold for $15 at gunshows in the D/FW metroplex?

Anyone but againstthagrane?

JWarren
April 13, 2008, 01:34 PM
I'm calling BS on you right now. I have never seen such a thing sold at a gunshow in the D/FW metroplex."

well if YOU haven't seen it, then it must not be true. i didn't realize we had omniscient members on this board. while i have your ear, what is the meaning of life? btw, they had them at the gun show at will rogers about a month ago. believe it or not...


I've been to dozens of gunshows in the MS and LA area over the last 25 years. I can honestly say that I've never see anything like that.


-- John

Just Jim
April 13, 2008, 01:34 PM
I'll ask the general community at large again.. Has anyone here seen pictures of hanged african americans being sold for $15 at gunshows in the D/FW metroplex?

Anyone but againstthagrane?

Only in history books have I seen this sort of crap. No gun show would allow overt racism on display.

Please shut this thread down.

jj

TonyB
April 13, 2008, 01:36 PM
I live here in the great "liberal northeast"and have experienced racism at the range and gunstore....not pertaining to me(middle aged white guy)but to a good buddy,one poor kid looking to buy a magazine and a whole race of Middle Easterners.....
1)while in a gunshop w/ a friend who's black...I got all the attention,and he was ignored..I had no money to spend...he makes more than me,and was ready to buy a new Beretta
2)some black kid goes into the same store and gets the brush off of"we don't sell Glock magazines(which is crap)
3)while shooting at a local range,some yahoo askes if he can shoot w/ us at the combat range...I say sure.....after his 1st couple of shots to a silloette he says"well Habib is dead..."this guys doesn't know mne from adam,maybe my wife is middle eastern,some of my friends are for sure.then after his next shots he says"Tyrone is dead..." we packed up our crap and left......
I'm not saying gun people are racist.....people in general are.
I judge people on an individual basis,if you're an a-hole I don't care where you come from,or what color you are...;)

againstthagrane
April 13, 2008, 01:37 PM
next time i see one i'll take a picture of it. a picture of the stand its being sold at and post it right here for you to see :)

ClickClickD'oh
April 13, 2008, 01:38 PM
next time i see one i'll take a picture of it. a picture of the stand its being sold at and post it right here for you to see
There is a gunshow going on right now at the Dallas Markethall.

Go get one.

againstthagrane
April 13, 2008, 01:40 PM
tony you're obviously a liar, no one else here has ever experienced that, therefore you are a liar.;).

after all, if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it, did it really fall? of course not. :neener:

Just Jim
April 13, 2008, 01:40 PM
Again, the men and women who fought for your right to own a gun and shoot at the shop had no racial qualifiers in the fight.

jj

Just Jim
April 13, 2008, 01:43 PM
I do understand why the shop didn't want your business. I doubt it had anything to do with color

jj

againstthagrane
April 13, 2008, 01:43 PM
'There is a gunshow going on right now at the Dallas Markethall.

Go get one.'

yeah, let me get right on that. haha. i'll just spend my sunday at the gun show when i just bought a new rifle yesterday (me=broke) just to appease some hard headed guy on an online forum. can i pick you up some spare magazines or bulk ammo while i'm there? would you like some beef jerky or some airbrushed t-shirts? i'm at your beck and call. :rolleyes:

ClickClickD'oh
April 13, 2008, 01:45 PM
yeah, let me get right on that. haha. i'll just spend my sunday at the gun show when i just bought a new rifle yesterday (me=broke) just to appease some hard headed guy on an online forum. can i pick you up some spare magazines or bulk ammo while i'm there? would you like some beef jerky or some airbrushed t-shirts? i'm at your beck and call. You made a claim. A claim that strikes at the character of the members here by suggesting they would allow blatant racism to pass. You can't, and won't support that claim, thus failing a basic tennet of civilized discourse.

I reccomend a moderator close your account.

revjen45
April 13, 2008, 01:46 PM
"next time i see one i'll take a picture of it. a picture of the stand its being sold at and post it right here for you to see "
Most of the gun shows I attend don't allow cameras. I have never seen such tripe at a gun show and I know WAC would not allow such to be sold at theirs.

BTW- I was delighted that one of the new shooters at my employer's gun club is African-American. If we wish to keep our rights they can't be just for WASPs.

ranger335v
April 13, 2008, 01:46 PM
I find jerks everywhere, especially at gun shows. But, I'm lilly white so I guess I have no where to hide and can't call it discrimination, can I?

JWarren
April 13, 2008, 01:47 PM
Before this locks, I did want to make one point...

I think we are all certain of one thing:


Both Racism and Prejudice DO exist.

I've seen racism exhibited by White Persons, Black Persons, Asian Persons, Jewish Persons, Arab Persons, ... you name it.

I've seen Prejudice exhibited liberally on the basis of religion, gender, sexual orientation, and geographic origin.

So there it is. No one gets to have a monopoly on either of those concepts.

I've no doubt you've experienced racism/prejudice from the sources you've cited. I've experienced it when I was working in the WTC due to my Southern origin.


I'm not sure exactly what we can accomplish by pointing out these things specific to the gun industry. You get them everywhere-- and from different perspectives.

Until we heal the rest of society-- regardless of the originating perspective, we have no use in highlighting ONE industry.


-- John

rantingredneck
April 13, 2008, 01:51 PM
First, the level of civility in this thread has definitely plummeted from the High Road.

The OP asked had anyone seen evidence of racism at gunshows and gunstores. He didn't say "Gun owners are racist". He didn't say "Are gun owners racist". He basically asked "are some gun owners racist?"

Well since gun owners are 100% human and a given percentage of humans bear racist sentiments, it would be true to say that some gun owners are racist. This extends I'm sure to some gun sellers.

He's been jumped on from the start, but not many have answered the question.

I have, as I have seen evidence of SOME gun owners and sellers overt racism. No one is saying all gun owners are racist. But to say that no gun owners are racist is quite frankly the definition of denial.

bogie
April 13, 2008, 01:54 PM
I've seen ONE table that was downright just offensive, at one gun show. And I went and bitched at the promoter. They were selling pretty much nothing but klucker and nazi crap. Haven't seen 'em again.

Kluckers and nazis like guns. But they are NOT the gun culture. In fact, most of us wish we could make them go away...

Oh yeah, that show was in Illinois...

I know a lot of dealers get a bit jaded... One place that used to be in the city would have folks come in and try to just buy a magazine full or cylinder full of ammo... That's all they needed...

I -have- seen a few shows where folks will have something like the Tuner Diaries on the table - Invariably, these are folks who think that "this is what gun people read," and they don't really know that much about us... What the hey, I ain't shy... I'll give 'em a piece of mind anyway. But I don't get many opportunities.

Can you break the stereotype?

CBS220
April 13, 2008, 01:54 PM
Wow, from the way the OP has reacted to any criticism or possible doubt toward his allegations, I'm going to go ahead and say that it's him, and not the gun store employees.

Ever notice how all the folks on the internet know so much about guns, but gun store employees and owners are all dolts who don't want your business?

I've seen those lynching postcards at flea markets. They are a part of history, like it or not. But anyone who showed up at a gun show with that stuff would get kicked out in a hurry!

againstthagrane
April 13, 2008, 01:56 PM
"You made a claim. A claim that strikes at the character of the members here by suggesting they would allow blatant racism to pass. You can't, and won't support that claim, thus failing a basic tennet of civilized discourse.

I reccomend a moderator close your account."

the word you're looking for is "tenant".

so because i wouldn't drop what i'm doing to appease you, you recommend a mod. close my account. so you're choosing to censor me. good thing you're not in politics. if everyone thought like you we'd have our own version of the taliban in america.

the word is "tenant".

even if you are not racist, you're definitely a fascist to try to shut down a thread that was merely asking if anyone had these experiences. if you can't handle dealing with reading material that offends you, you should exercise your right to click the little "x" in the corner of your browser.

JWarren
April 13, 2008, 01:56 PM
rantingredneck,

Good observations. And you have indeed answered his question. I do agree that there has been a bit more hostility than I feel is warranted.

At the same time I do believe that the question is fairly useless-- especially the way you restated it.

Given what we know about society, and human nature, its like asking

Hey, are some humans left-handed?

When you look at a broad spectrum of any group, you will likely find examples of a particular trait. Why should the gun industry be any different than ANY industry? The question becomes self-answering.

And to answer my own question... there must be a few left-handed people. I'm one of them. (but I shoot right-handed) :)



-- John

bogie
April 13, 2008, 01:57 PM
19 posts, a bunch of them on this thread. I'm not psychic or anything, but I'd guess "agenda." Hopefully it was denied.

Oh yeah. It's spelled "grain."

rantingredneck
April 13, 2008, 01:58 PM
I shoot guns right handed and pool left handed. I'm just weird. :D.

Yes, I agree, the question fairly answers itself given a bit of thought.

Even so, the attacks are a bit unwarranted. Simple enough to say, as you have, that it is what it is and that it permeates society beyond the world of guns.

bogie
April 13, 2008, 01:58 PM
J, you're just sinister... I was ambi until the penguins got 'hold of me. Got whacked a bunch.

Ten∑et /ˈtɛnɪt; Brit. also ˈtinɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ten-it; Brit. also tee-nit] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
any opinion, principle, doctrine, dogma, etc., esp. one held as true by members of a profession, group, or movement.

Spelling helps.

CBS220
April 13, 2008, 01:59 PM
even if you are not racist, you're definitely a fascist to try to shut down a thread that was merely asking if anyone had these experiences. if you can't handle dealing with reading material that offends you, you should exercise your right to click the little "x" in the corner of your browser.

Wow, you seriously just made a swipe at him as a racist and a fascist for asking that a thread like this is closed.

Perhaps a self-examination is in order? I've met jerks too, but just because Bass Pro won't order me a black plastic megablaster doesn't mean that they're racist.

Actually, however, it's "tenet".

ClickClickD'oh
April 13, 2008, 02:01 PM
...you're definitely a fascist..

Hoo boy..

There are rules, we follow them. One of them is that you have to support your claims. Another is that you aren't supposed to be attacking members. You apparently joined this forum just to start this thread, and thereby attack forum members by suggesting we allow racism to persist. That is why I think your account should be closed. You aren't here to contribute in a positive manner.

rantingredneck
April 13, 2008, 02:02 PM
"You made a claim. A claim that strikes at the character of the members here by suggesting they would allow blatant racism to pass. You can't, and won't support that claim, thus failing a basic tennet of civilized discourse.

I reccomend a moderator close your account."

the word you're looking for is "tenant".

so because i wouldn't drop what i'm doing to appease you, you recommend a mod. close my account. so you're choosing to censor me. good thing you're not in politics. if everyone thought like you we'd have our own version of the taliban in america.

the word is "tenant".

even if you are not racist, you're definitely a fascist to try to shut down a thread that was merely asking if anyone had these experiences. if you can't handle dealing with reading material that offends you, you should exercise your right to click the little "x" in the corner of your browser.

Actually it's "tenet" but that's beside the point. The point is the level of incivility alone will get this thread locked and you are now contributing to it.

jaholder1971
April 13, 2008, 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by againstthagrane
i'm not even going to go to much into the whole gun show aspect of the situation other than saying how i'm not surprised that i've experienced racism in the same place where they sell old photos of blacks being lynched for $15 a pop
I'm calling BS on you right now. I have chd sunever seen such a thing sold at a gunshow in the D/FW metroplex.


Maybe not at the metroplex, but I've seen similar crap sold at gunshows around here.

One "dealer" was selling artwork of John Wayne Gacey's at this table. Mostly paintings of clowns, creepy as hell.

Another cutlery dealer was infamous for the wearing of KKK T-shirts at their booths by himself and his staff. He must have been told to knock it off by the promoters as he now wears NASCAR t_shirts now.

One dealer in KC had issues with what he considered riffraff. Back in the days of 5 day wait I bought a Model 10 sporting a 3 piece suit. I'd been in town for a funeral and stopped by after the services.

I came back 5 days later in cutoffs and a T-shirt and he didn't want to acknowledge my existence in his store. This clown later went out of business and went to work for the lawyers suing the gun industry as a professional witness.

It happens. However for every one of these clowns there are 100 good reputable folks who want your business and will treat you right.

bogie
April 13, 2008, 02:03 PM
Methinx that someone is working on a research paper for this week's college "bleedfest" about Virginia Tech. And wants to portray gun owners as a buncha racist loons...

againstthagrane
April 13, 2008, 02:05 PM
"Perhaps a self-examination is in order? I've met jerks too, but just because Bass Pro won't order me a black plastic megablaster doesn't mean that they're racist."

a plastic pistol is a mega-blaster?

i basically just wanted to hear other people's experiences, but i've just been defending myself.

yes, my agenda is to outlaw racism one gun forum at a time. i have been foiled! damn you, batman!

mbt2001
April 13, 2008, 02:05 PM
I live in Houston, virtually every gun show I go to is about 60% white folks and the rest Hispanic, Black and "other". Being racist in Texas is an "expensive hobby". This state has never had an ULTRA white majority.

This may not come out perfect, but it is something to think about. I have met rude, lazy and incompetent people. When I have to interact with them, those are my judgments. I know for a fact that some "people of color" that run into those same attitudes are quick to point out racism. Quit thinking racism and think "rude, incompetent, lazy" instead. Unless there was some obvious racist content.

I am not kidding here. I have met a real few racists in my time... In the economy we are in, few people prefer white over green.... I am sure the old geezer that didn't help you was, rude, incompetent or lazy...

Just Jim
April 13, 2008, 02:05 PM
High Road members shouldn't have to defend themselves against charges of racism. While some people may be racist it certianly isn't allowed on the board. For someone to come here and call gun owners racist is beyond the pale and is racist in itself..

jj

JWarren
April 13, 2008, 02:05 PM
On a side note....


What is it with Illinois? We don't have Nazi's down here at our gunshows.


There's nothing worse than Illinois Nazis.


-- John

againstthagrane
April 13, 2008, 02:09 PM
"Actually it's "tenet" but that's beside the point. "

whoops, i stand corrected.

why would want to portray gun owners as racists when i AM a gun owner? i don't see your logic there bogie.

Nitrogen
April 13, 2008, 02:18 PM
Calling BS as well, at least on the bullet trap.
I am probably "more racist" than they are, as they have no problem allowing people that look and act like gangbangers to rent guns and shoot, when I'd kick them out. As a frequent shooter there, I see it constantly.

Though at gunshows, I have seen way too much nazi stuff; which is why I usually wear my IDF shirt when I go; i love the stinkeye I get from them.

JWarren
April 13, 2008, 02:21 PM
yes, my agenda is to outlaw racism one gun forum at a time.


I've got a couple better ideas:

1. Worry about society as a whole and not focus on "gun forums."

2. Realize that people are still free to think what they want. "Outlawing" beliefs or views-- even if they are distasteful to you-- is as wrong as that which you combat.


Now we really ARE approaching "Fascism."



-- John

fearless leader
April 13, 2008, 02:30 PM
Gun shops almost always devalue YOUR gun if you try to sell it. They are just dickering the price. I bought a shotgun in a shop for $180 used, then decided to get something else and sold it back to the same shop, different operator, and he couldn't go more than $50. Then he started finding fault with it saying how it wasn't worth much to start with, and I stopped him. I told him I just bought this gun for $180! He told me I had been taken. I told him I got it from THIS shop last week, and he said I paid too much.

I've noticed when I want to sell something, it isn't worth a plugged nickel, but whatever they are selling is good as gold, until I try to trade it back. It's just making money, not racism. Most shop screw everyone equally when they are BUYING or trading.

They can usually buy it new for less than you want used for it. When I got my FFL, I was astonished at the price a dealer paid for some of the guns I paid upwards of $500. I could now get them for $200, give or take a little.

As for those photos, I'm 46 years old and haven't seen anything like that, anywhere, at any price!
I agree you would need a check up from the neck up to put anything up like that.

jakeswensonmt
April 13, 2008, 02:33 PM
the bullettrap in plano has got to be the most blatant about their racism. they will pretty much crap on any gun you mention that isn't made in the US or by dark people in another part of the world like beretta and taurus. lol.
This is not racism. This is nationalism. And I'm all for it. Buy American! Keep your neighbors employed.

Identifying the message "buy American" as racist would be quite a stretch. That nationalism could be mistaken for racism makes me suspect a tendency to label as many as possible of the negative behaviors encountered in others as having racist roots. Rude people abound, everybody gets treated like a jerk, even blonde/blue eyed WASPS like me.

Gun enthusiasts don't concern themselves about the color of the hands that made their guns, instead the quality of the work of those hands. If Shaka Zulu himself was making a superb weapon at a competitive price, white guys would be buying them.

Blackbeard
April 13, 2008, 02:33 PM
Ok everyone, take a deep breath and calm down. The issue for discussion is whether gun store owners/employess tend to exhibit racist characteristics moreso than people in other lines of work. Not whether the OP experienced racism, or whether members of this forum are racist.

It's possible he did experience racism, but it is usually very hard to tell. There are many threads on this forum about what a bunch of arrogant, rude jerks gun store owners can be. It's possible that the people serving the OP were just jerks, and not racist jerks. It is impossible to tell unless they behave differently toward different groups of people.

If he won't order a gun for you, but will order it for white people, that's a racist. If he won't order a gun for you because he's a lousy businessman who doesn't care about his customers, that's not racism. That's poor customer service. Unfortunately you will never know which it is because both behaviors are the same -- he doesn't order the gun.

BobTheTomato
April 13, 2008, 02:35 PM
I used to find that sales people in all kinds of stores ignored me when I was younger and first married. I think it was mostly just the fact people thought I had no money. Now with 2 kids and looking older I get more attention. I tend to find the color most care about is green.

Old Guy
April 13, 2008, 02:40 PM
The one type of gun store employee we all love, is the EXPERT! knows all, when the Glock first came on the market, Cheap/inaccurate/will not fire +p on and on. In the US of A, there is racism, of course there is, it is every where in the world. More common at gun shows/Gun Stores? I don't think so, but every one looks at the world from different places, if you are a non white (stupid term) or not, the original poster has a little aggression he needs to think about.

My Wife was born in Guyana, they say they are West Indian when asked (must have floated off the South American Continent) and as well as being lovely, she has an Indian kind of look. When we moved to Florida I thought we might have some wee problems, 4 years ago, none, no comments of any nature (I am an ex Scouse, of the white kind) kind of aggressive Scouse (are there any other kind?) One thing I have noticed, my accent unlocks the faces of the black people I speak to, there is a kind of mask on the average individual, when I smile and speak, they smile back.

How to deal with a problem? it is not your problem, if some one treats you differently, or you only think they have, move on, nothing you say or do is going to change some one else's attitude, it is their problem.

I am 72, and having a great time, happy and healthy, in love with my Wife, have 4 Grand Kids, love them, two kids, and two step kids, love them as well.

So look out at life with a smile, if things turn bad, act accordingly.

TheFringe
April 13, 2008, 02:45 PM
I am White but have also been the recipient of discrimination at local gun shops. I now simply purchase all of my guns and ammo online (the exceptions being Sportsman's Warehouse, etc ) and have the guns transferred to a small, friendly FFL run by a fellow who looks just like me; which is somewhere between a member of KISS (without the make-up) and a Palestinian Terrorist.:eek:

I guess I got tired of employees staring darts at me upon entering the store. Most were rude and some even refused to accept transfers. I am a novice collector so nothing in their inventory really interests me anyhow. Most items I am interested in have to be special ordered (Saiga-12 conversion, PKM, Browning M37, etc) but I still would have rather supported a local store if they had offered to research and attempted to procure these items for me.

Despite being extremely cordial and articulate in person, my appearance possibly suggests I am a liberal hippie prick (I'm quite the opposite actually) so I have come to accept 'the look' if I frequent a gun store.

Frankly I learn far more from this website than from any gun store, and am happy to have my transfers sent to a friendly FFL.

Hk91-762mm
April 13, 2008, 02:56 PM
Maby this is a case of Crapppie customer service ??
I always treat everyone with my best customer relations I can.
Although I had 1 bad experiance --At a major gun show before nics checks I had a Black guy stop at my table and look over the cobray carbines [They are like mac -10 pistols turned into rifles] hes neat and Seemed like a good guy-I asked what we was going to use them for and he told me he was collecting them because the value would go up-! OK Ill buy that and his Id showed he worked for the postal system after joking around about "going postal" He bought 2 of them. Darn if not 2 weeks later I get a call from -YEP=ATF..Seems My nice guy was in a bunch who were converting them to full auto and reselling them. :cuss:
The one thing you guys forgot about=WOMEN I hear ladies complain about bad service all the time--I work extra hard when a Lady stops by my table .Maby she wont buy something this time But she will always remember the frendly Polite service she got .and when she need that carry peace or hubbys B-day present Thats when it pays off.

bogie
April 13, 2008, 02:59 PM
Heh... I go to gun shows wearing tie-dyes and an NBRSA belt buckle... used to have long hair, still have the beard... And I've had few problems, except with The Old Farts, who assume that anyone under 60 doesn't know diddly... But hey, that's just the Way of the Old Fart, and we must recognize it, and actually cherish it a little.

Tribal
April 13, 2008, 03:07 PM
Thanks to the most recent group of posters here; this thread was going downhill fast but y'all brought it back on track. The OP's post was on an interesting and important topic and I know that a lot of us are interesting in hearing things out and seeing what comes from that.

I'll be honest: I have yet to figure out "the look." I've gone to shops and shows wearing everything from ratty cargo pants and a t-shirt to a sportcoat and trousers and I pretty much get treated well by some dealers and poorly by others. Sometimes it's just that the dealer has been messed with so often himself that you've got an initial hurdle to overcome.

rocinante
April 13, 2008, 03:13 PM
I am southern white corn bread so I don't know but I do know when I go to gun shows in the Atlanta area there are always a fair number of blacks. I talked to one who was looking at a chinese double barrel shotgun I had just purchased one just like it a month before. Near as I could tell it was two guys talking about a common interest.

I sympathize but a dumb ass is a dumb ass and unless he is in my face I will pay him no mind at all. Last I checked I am positive some of other races do not approve of me either. I am not even going to chime in with the seemingly mandatory white folk I am not a racist disclaimer. (I cave. I AM NOT A RACIST. HONEST) What I am and what I believe means jack unless it affects you. If it does I am sure you can find someone else to do business with.

againstthagrane
April 13, 2008, 03:28 PM
"I am White but have also been the recipient of discrimination at local gun shops. I now simply purchase all of my guns and ammo online (the exceptions being Sportsman's Warehouse, etc ) and have the guns transferred to a small, frindly FFL run by a fellow who looks just like me; which is somewhere between a member of Kiss (without the make-up) and a Palestinian Terrorist.

I guess I got tired of employees staring darts at me upon entering the store. Most were rude and some even refused to accept transfers. I am a novice collector so nothing in their inventory really interests me anyhow. Most items I am interested in have to be special ordered (Saiga-12 conversion, PKM, Browning M37, etc) but I still would have rather supported a local store if they would have researched and attempted to procure these items for me.

Despite being extremely cordial and articulate in person, my appearance possibly suggests I am a liberal hippie prick (I'm quite the opposite actually) so I have come to accept 'the look' if I frequent a gun store.

Frankly I learn far more from this website than from any gun store, and am happy to have my transfers sent to a friendly FFL."


thank you fringe. THIS is the type of thing i was wanting to hear about. Discrimination is not only based on race. it can be anything.

i'm not one to pull the race card willy-nilly, but when i see a clerk helping a middle aged white guy who isn't buying anything with a cheerful disposition and a helping attitude and then completely stoneface me with a one word answer when i have $900 to blow on a pistol. i can't help but assume racism/age-ism. (bass pro shops)
or the guy at the gun show helping everyone BUT me looking at the MIAD replacement grips. i stood around for 4 minutes while he was doing nothing. i kept time on my phone. in this four minutes he made eye contact with me at least three times. i was staring right at him waiting for him to help me and he never did. so i'll be ordering that item online.
maybe, it wasn't racism. maybe he was lazy. maybe he doesn't understand what it means when someone is standing at your booth staring at you so you'll ask them for help. maybe he had bad vision and couldn't tell i was looking at him. there are a lot of possibilities, but only a few likely ones. i, like everyone else in the world perceives events based on past experiences with like events. i can't help that.
i was wearing a fitted t-shirt and trendy fitted jeans(what i always wear when i'm out on the weekend, which is when i make any major purchases). i wasn't wearing a gang colored doo-rag and airforce ones with my pants at my knees. i'm an articulate and polite person. i even say please and thank you at drive through restaurants. THAT is why i felt discriminated against.

i never once in my original post suggested that gun OWNERS were all racist. there are racists everywhere. i wouldn't meet a guy with a toyota who likes tacos and assume all toyota owners like tacos.

Robert Hairless
April 13, 2008, 03:30 PM
I think airing of dirty laundry and how to correct it is the essence of The High Road.

Yup.

boggyboy72
April 13, 2008, 03:34 PM
While I have never seen anyting racist at the gun show(pictures of lynchings,kkk stuff,etc.)some of the people I have talked to make me think they have some at home.You can find racists anywhere North-South-East-West rich or poor.

againstthagrane
April 13, 2008, 03:36 PM
"This is not racism. This is nationalism. And I'm all for it. Buy American! Keep your neighbors employed."

that would make sense if they didn't drink glock, Sig, HK and CZ kool-aid all day long. thats what lead me to form my opinion about that particular issue.
they don't preach buy american. just don't buy from anyone with a year round tan...beretta and taurus.
buying american doesn't always keep americans employed. half of fords are made in mexico and canada.
dell's entire cust. service dept is in india.
springfield XDs are made in croatia.
its all about money and how to make more of it. if a company can save $400,000 by moving certain operations over seas, they will. ultimately its our own fault that its happening, because we want the lowest price. sometimes saving $100 on a new pc end up costing more in the grand scheme of things.

JWarren
April 13, 2008, 03:41 PM
I think what some are trying to impress is that EVERY interaction that dissatisfies you is NOT racist or prejudice.

At the last gunshow I went to, I walked away from 2-3 tables after standing there for several minutes because no one wanted to help me. I waited until the person behind the counter finished his last transaction (Growing up, I was taught manners). Afterwards, the salesperson would look at me and make eye contact, but then walk away before I could open my mouth.

And a two local gunshops around here are just as bad.


The thing is... I meet what everyone seems to think that the "right" look is. I am from the area, got the same accent, dress professional, and have money when if I am looking.

Sometimes it ain't about all the little self-talk we give ourselves. Sometimes its just about Apathy.


-- John

TheFringe
April 13, 2008, 03:42 PM
Thank you Againstthagrane,
I appreciate your posting this topic. I wish you well in finding a local establishment with a friendly, knowledgeable staff that will treat you like the decent Human Being you are.

RP88
April 13, 2008, 03:46 PM
I get treated rather lowly because of my age. I get that "why the hell are you looking at those kind of guns?" look from alot of older guys, since I'm particularly interested in modern mil-rifles.

here's how it's gone for me:

"Hi, I'm looking for a nice little .22"
"aww, thats nice. Here's a ruger."
"hmm, thats pretty expensive"
"check this model 60 out"
"awesome, thanks."
"take it easy, sport"

as opposed to...

"hi, I've been looking into getting an AK-47"
"...yea, we sell them...*glare*"
"do you guys allow shipping to your location from internet-run sites?"
"...yea *glare*"
"what's your transfer fee rate?"
"...*glare*"

pretty much a big stereotype thing going on. If they see a black guy carrying on like a rapper/thug looking for a Glock, they're unkind. They see a young guy like me with no military background checking out military rifles, they're unkind. they see anyone who either doesnt take guns as serious as they do, or won't get suckered into buying an overpriced gun, they're unkind.

then there are just people who don't like certain people altogether. Oh well. just try and make friends. if you don't, then whatever. There are others who share your interests who arent bigots and jerks.

and of course, there is that apathy going on like mentioned above. A gun seller is obviously going to be more willing to spend time with someone whom he can tell knows what he wants as opposed to someone who only has a question or two.

sublimaze41
April 13, 2008, 03:56 PM
I have encountered problems getting certain guns that I have wanted. I am white so race wasn't the issue. What was the issue?? Don't know, Don't care. I protest by taking my business elsewhere.

Just Jim........ requests that the thread be shut down..................AND then posts several more times.

The lady (man) doth protest too much!

bogie
April 13, 2008, 04:06 PM
Dealers ARE paranoid too... Yup. Folks profile. Because they don't wanna be on CNN as "the guy who sold the AK-47 to the crazed shooter."

yokel
April 13, 2008, 04:20 PM
I'm guessing that working in retail is bad enough without all the anti-gun hysteria and scaremongering being passed off as news 'above the fold.'

igpoobah
April 13, 2008, 04:24 PM
I think there are a lot of cranky white guys around this place. :neener:

Racism exists. In both directions.

I'm sorry you felt discriminated against. It isn't right. Maybe one day we can all grow up and get over ourselves. Until then....:banghead:

elsullo
April 13, 2008, 05:41 PM
:cuss: How DARE you suggest that taco-eaters are racists! :fire: Why, some of my best friends are taco-eaters! But I would not want my sister to marry one...................(the GAS problem):fire:.

Yes, Againstthegrane, I AM kidding! And I appreciate your ability to maintain a sense of humor during this worthy thread.

I am mostly "white" but I learned a little bit of what prejudice minorities receive when I moved to Hawaii for a while, where I WAS the minority. I could not get a job, a rental, or the time of day from the Asian culture caste-system that rules Hawaii---they LOVE tourists, but don't try to LIVE there! I was treated with disdain and suspicion and even overt hostility everywhere I went. I still love Hawaii anyway, and am grateful for my own experience of racist discrimination, just to get even a clue of what minorities go through here on the mainland.

My gunshop and gunshow experience is limited to thirty years here in Oregon. I find these places generally even LESS racist than ordinary shops and flea-markets! I feel that gun afficionados and sportsmen (and women) are generally more patriotic and colorblind than the mass of citizens, because they earnestly defend the Bill of Rights for the freedom of the individual, and generally "think outside the box" of media manipulation.

Nevertheless, I do not doubt that you have felt discrimination at gun shops and shows. In spite of published rules against it there are always book tables with racist and anti-Semetic literature salted amongs the gun books and back-to-nature survivalist homilies. Perhaps only an educated person would recognize them. There are always tables of Civil War or Nazi memorabillia and boxes of antique postcards amongst the artworks, though I never have seen any racist material displayed. In any gathering of a thousand tables there are bound to be some bottom-dwellers. It IS creepy though, how most people sort of know that these tables are there, but ignore the worst aspects that might be found if examined. Somehow a gun show does not seem to be a good place to start an arguement or make a principled stand! I sort of think of it like sweeping out an old garage---you know there are poisonous spiders lurking in the corners, but if you can you just leave them be...................

I could go on and on about bad and ignorant service at gunshops. I try to imagine a low-paying job where lots of people want to see and touch and boast, but very few want to buy, but I still have no sympathy for salespeople who treat their customers like intruders, or where owners do their utmost to rip everyone off, buy way-low and sell way-high. And this is how they treat the "white" people! I do not doubt that a "minority" person gets even more of this crap, especially when the shop people ignorantly wonder if you might be a "straw man" buyer for a gang. I have no tatoos on my neck, but when I enter a gunshop wearing my black leather motorcycle jacket I DO see everybody tense up before they earnestly ignore me!

I think that a sense of humor is the only salvation for the human race. It is really only recently that we stopped walking on our knuckles, after all. A good gag that I have developed for getting service at gun shows and shops: I pull out my wallet and pretend to count LOTS of bills with my fingers---suddenly I get their attention! Then I ignore them for a while.........................elsullo :rolleyes:

Fburgtx
April 13, 2008, 05:41 PM
I agree with some of the others here who feel it's probably more of an age issue than a race issue. When it happens that you are young AND asking about newer/more "tactical" type stuff, it's even worse. Luckily, I'm more of a High Standard/Ithaca kind of guy, but, even in my early 30's, I encounter this issue every once in a while.

Blackbeard
April 13, 2008, 05:45 PM
i wouldn't meet a guy with a toyota who likes tacos and assume all toyota owners like tacos.

Hey, I own a Toyota and I like tacos. What are you insinuating? :D

mgregg85
April 13, 2008, 05:49 PM
I was pleasantly surprised at the Wild Indian Gun Company in Goldsboro, NC. I worried about racism in the south and while I was in there looking around, 3 young black men came in and the white guy behind the counter knew one of them by name as was pretty friendly.

I was unsure about moving down there but now, after seeing that it isn't so bad, I'm excited about it.

tntwatt
April 13, 2008, 06:04 PM
I've seen the lynching type photos at gun shows here in Ga. They were ususally being sold by the sickko that was aslo selling graphic torture photos from WWII,Korea,VN, and any other photo of sick and morbid life.

My dealer here in Ga couldn't care less about the color of your skin. He cares about 2 things: Do you want to buy a gun and can you pass your background check? If you ever decide to move to middle Ga just let me know and I'll introduce you to him. In this day and age of failing businesses and fanatic anti-gunners, racism has no place. We all stick together or we sink together.

tntwatt
April 13, 2008, 06:14 PM
made in the US or by dark people in another part of the world like beretta and taurus. lol.

Just for the record, claims of racism are much better received when you don't use racist statements. Even if you try to cover it up with a "lol".

elsullo
April 13, 2008, 06:18 PM
:cuss: How DARE you suggest that taco-eaters are racists! :fire: Why, some of my best friends are taco-eaters! But I would not want my sister to marry one...................(the GAS problem):fire:.

Yes, Againstthegrane, I AM kidding! And I appreciate your ability to maintain a sense of humor during this worthy thread.

I am mostly "white" but I learned a little bit of what prejudice minorities receive when I moved to Hawaii for a while, where I WAS the minority. I could not get a job, a rental, or the time of day from the Asian culture caste-system that rules Hawaii---they LOVE tourists, but don't try to LIVE there! I was treated with disdain and suspicion and even overt hostility everywhere I went. I still love Hawaii anyway, and am grateful for my own experience of racist discrimination, just to get even a clue of what minorities go through here on the mainland.

My gunshop and gunshow experience is limited to thirty years here in Oregon. I find these places generally even LESS racist than ordinary shops and flea-markets! I feel that gun afficionados and sportsmen (and women) are generally more patriotic and colorblind than the mass of citizens, because they earnestly defend the Bill of Rights for the freedom of the individual, and generally "think outside the box" of media manipulation.

Nevertheless, I do not doubt that you have felt discrimination at gun shops and shows. In spite of published rules against it there are always book tables with racist and anti-Semetic literature salted amongs the gun books and back-to-nature survivalist homilies. Perhaps only an educated person would recognize them. There are always tables of Civil War or Nazi memorabillia and boxes of antique postcards amongst the artworks, though I never have seen any racist material displayed. In any gathering of a thousand tables there are bound to be some bottom-dwellers. It IS creepy though, how most people sort of know that these tables are there, but ignore the worst aspects that might be found if examined. Somehow a gun show does not seem to be a good place to start an arguement or make a principled stand! I sort of think of it like sweeping out an old garage---you know there are poisonous spiders lurking in the corners, but if you can you just leave them be...................

I could go on and on about bad and ignorant service at gunshops. I try to imagine a low-paying job where lots of people want to see and touch and boast, but very few want to buy, but I still have no sympathy for salespeople who treat their customers like intruders, or where owners do their utmost to rip everyone off, buy way-low and sell way-high. And this is how they treat the "white" people! I do not doubt that a "minority" person gets even more of this crap, especially when the shop people ignorantly wonder if you might be a "straw man" buyer for a gang. I have no tatoos on my neck, but when I enter a gunshop wearing my black leather motorcycle jacket I DO see everybody tense up before they earnestly ignore me!

I think that a sense of humor is the only salvation for the human race. It is really only recently that we stopped walking on our knuckles, after all. A good gag that I have developed for getting service at gun shows and shops: I pull out my wallet and pretend to count LOTS of bills with my fingers---suddenly I get their attention! Then I ignore them for a while.........................elsullo :rolleyes:

antsi
April 13, 2008, 06:22 PM
Ok everyone, take a deep breath and calm down. The issue for discussion is whether gun store owners/employess tend to exhibit racist characteristics moreso than people in other lines of work. Not whether the OP experienced racism, or whether members of this forum are racist.

It's possible he did experience racism, but it is usually very hard to tell. There are many threads on this forum about what a bunch of arrogant, rude jerks gun store owners can be. It's possible that the people serving the OP were just jerks, and not racist jerks. It is impossible to tell unless they behave differently toward different groups of people.


I am white, but I have encountered racist comments by a gun store employee - used the "N word" talking about some other customers who were in the store. He said something to the effect that "those people" were ruining gun ownership for the rest of us.

To put that in perspective, that was one occasion out of the hundreds of times I have been in gun stores. So I can't say that incident was representative of gun stores as a whole.

I agree with the other posters who have pointed out all the hundreds of threads on THR about jerk employees in gun stores. Sometimes when someone is acting like a jerk there may be a tendency to think we know their motives for being a jerk. Personally I don't care. If someone is being a jerk because the customer is the "wrong" color, or because they own foreign guns (or "commie guns") or just because they have inherent personality problems, it is pretty much the same outcome - the person is being a jerk.

Nor do I think this is unique to gun stores or gun shows. There are jerks in every industry and every walk of life.

I do think the reaction to the original poster has been extreme by some members. Disagree with him - fine. But demanding a thread be closed because you disagree with someone's question is a bit thin-skinned. For a neutral observer without a dog in this fight, some of the reactions in this thread have made me wonder, "why is this guy so defensive about this topic?"

rantingredneck
April 13, 2008, 06:26 PM
Do you want to buy a gun and can you pass your background check?

That's the way they are where I do business too. Please don't take anything in my previous posts to imply that racism is rampant around here. It does exist, as I imagine it does everywhere to some extent, but this is not the Jim Crow south anymore, despite NC's Pistol permit system (don't get me started :cuss:)

Having said that..........

I almost forgot about another experience I had at the Greensboro gunshow (this was a separate show from the one I mentioned in the previous post).

A friend of mine (also white) and I were perusing the wares of one of the vendors, a white guy about 65-70 years old. My friend and I are both mid-30's. As we are looking around the fellow says to my friend, "I have something here you'll want to see" and pulls out a 75 round drum mag for an SKS. My friend had an SKS slung over his shoulder at the time that he was trying to sell. My friend examines it and makes some polite comments on the quality of the construction and hands it back to him. He asked about price and I honestly forget the price he quoted. My friend wasn't in the market anyway, just being nice. The dealer then proceeds to say, "Well I've got 5 of them and I'll sell every one of them down in Atlanta next weekend for twice that. Those N*****S down there will buy anything."

My friend and I just looked at each other and walked away.

I will say that there was a time and place where his comments would have been commonplace. They are not anymore and Thank God. We have made great strides, but we must soldier on.

tntwatt
April 13, 2008, 06:37 PM
demanding a thread be closed because you disagree with someone's question is a bit thin-skinned

AGREED!!!! That's exactly what the anti's do. They want their freedom of speech but don't want us owning guns. We can't have it both ways..They get to keep spouting incorrect and false statements and we get to keep our guns.

againstthagrane
April 13, 2008, 06:46 PM
hey tnt, sorry if i offended you, but exactly what part of my post was racist? italians and brazilians do have darker complexions last time i checked. i refer to myself as brown as well. i don't find it offensive.
i just thought it was funny how they sing the praises of any gun that's made in the US and white europe, but italian and brazilian guns are crap in their eyes. honestly i don't care for taurus either, but i'm not really on a budget so i can spend more. for the money though, i think they're great.

againstthagrane
April 13, 2008, 06:49 PM
"some of the reactions in this thread have made me wonder, "why is this guy so defensive about this topic?""

if you read some of my replies, i was wondering the very same thing.

Don Lu
April 13, 2008, 06:53 PM
To answer the question...Yes, I have observed racism and racist themes at gushows. I have seen booths selling racist t-shirts ex. picture of hooded KKK memberes that reads "The real boyz in the hood". I have seen booths selling racist books, I have seen treatment of white shoppers far more friendly than w/others. I have overheard MANY white patrons making racist comments about "brown/black/yellow" shoppers, who were doing nothing more than shopping and or browsing. This is not about gun owners at large..he simply asked if anyone had expirienced racism at a gunshow or store. pretty simple question..either you have or you havent. We really need to do better reading the OP so that we dont look silly defending ourselves against accusations that werent made to begin with..

againstthagrane
April 13, 2008, 06:57 PM
"I've seen the lynching type photos at gun shows here in Ga. They were ususally being sold by the sickko that was aslo selling graphic torture photos from WWII,Korea,VN, and any other photo of sick and morbid life. "
oh btw, you're totally lying ;). clickclickdoh has not seen these photos, therefore, they do not exist. it's due to a law of physics or something. i'm not really sure how it works maybe he can explain it better.

rantingredneck
April 13, 2008, 07:18 PM
clickclickdoh has not seen these photos, therefore, they do not exist. it's due to a law of physics or something. i'm not really sure how it works maybe he can explain it better.

You know, this thread had seemed to rise above that. Please let it go or take the pissing contest to PM's or this will get locked.

GingerGuy
April 13, 2008, 07:19 PM
Some people working gun shops or gun shows do not have perfect people skills. I have experienced poor service, bad attitudes, the list goes on. If it gets to the point of taking my business elsewhere, I do. The same applies to restaurants, the quik-mart, everywhere I spend my money.

Having a friendly approach is half the battle, I see many customers that bring it on themselves. There are a lot of jerks out there, just don't be one yourself and service people will appreciate your business, it might take a while with some, but most the time they will come around.

USMC 1975
April 13, 2008, 07:29 PM
I am not sticking up for the gun shop that blew you off, but to be honest, we have a lot of gun shop owners in the good ole US of A who have ego's the size of Texas.

I spent my career wearing Italian suits, silk ties and expensive loafers. I dined and partied with many of the elite from my area. Today, I am older and retired and love my blue jeans and T-Shirts. I also enjoy going a couple days without shaving. :) I too have gone into a few gun shops and was blown off as well. In one I was treated like a second class citizen. And I am white.

Some of these gun shop owners get way above their raising. So I wouldn't take it personally. Many of us have suffered crap service regardless of the color of our skin.

I just take notes and never grace their door step again when treated bad and I make sure I tell my buddies.

Chris

Eightball
April 13, 2008, 07:39 PM
FWIW, I work as a counter-monkey for an FFL. And you know what? Some of my co-workers are racist, most of them aren't. The racist ones are also usually unpleasant to deal with all-around, and don't have many sales. Just look for the people who aren't racist, they'll be happy to help.

As for the people knowing less about the firearm you're interested in than you do. We have to know a general amount of information about everything we sell--you don't. There's only a modicum of training you can possibly receive about working retail as a counter-monkey, and beyond that, people learn what they think they need to know in order to sell product and make a paycheck. Some of us research as much as we can so that the one guy a year who comes in asking a bizarrely specific question, we can answer him and (hopefully) sell him the firearm.

However, how we treat you is directly dependent on your attitude. I try to be courteous to people as much as possible, but if their attitudes make that impossible, then our attitudes will most likely mirror yours. Going in thinking that a gun place is a "regime" is a bad place to start on your end--we're people who are working for a living. Don't blame the lot of us for the few rotten apples who are there to work as little as possible and pull down a paycheck.

CAPTAIN MIKE
April 13, 2008, 07:59 PM
I've been frequenting gun shops all my life. I've never seen anything like what the originator of this thread claims. Most people will treat you with respect if you don't come in "with an attitutde".

It seems incredible that all of a sudden all the guns shops in a particular area of the country suddenly developed a racist attitude. After all, many of us have literally fought for freedom for all Americans, regardless of their color. What my experience and my b.s. detector tells me is that this claim is not credible.

On the other hand, people who run gun stores are not reluctant to 'profile' people who come in appearing to have an attitude or appearing to wear gang clothing or appearing to be anything other than respectful, friendly, courteous, kind, cheerful, thrifty, brave or reverent. They have probably had their fill of 'know-it-alls' who are self-appointed experts.

As a long-time firearms user, competitor and instructor, I've run into a few people over the years (as many instructors have) who feel like they should be teaching the class rather than the instructor because they walked in possessing a modicum of knowledge. They're pretty easy to spot once they open their mouth. I'd be inclined to join with others on this website who correctly state that 99.9% of gun owners are upright people of good standing and character who are neither racists nor narrow-minded knuckle-draggers. I'd say that most gun shop employees have enough experience and training to know way more than the average customer walking in, and what might have been mistaken for racism was simply resentment of a know-it-all in their face.

erictank
April 13, 2008, 08:07 PM
Deleted - someone else already said it.

JWarren
April 13, 2008, 08:15 PM
Oh good god... are we still talking about "tenet?"

I've managed to kill a Cottonmouth Moccasin, burn a wood pile, and waste half a brick of .22 with my nephew while we are still nitpicking this.


As I said earlier...


Yes... there IS racism in the gun industry. And there is racism in every other industry, too.

And racism is demonstrated by Whites, by Blacks, by Asians, by Jews, by Arabs, and by everyone else, too.


Seriously, is this a SUPRISE to anyone?

And it isn't going to change anytime soon. Equality isn't about the absence of racism or prejudice. Equality is when every group gets to be racist and prejudice the same as everyone else.

In that regard, I'd say we are doing fine.


-- John

Cel
April 13, 2008, 08:25 PM
I had to chime in on this thread because the thread title caught my attention immediately. I have been discriminated against even though I'm not sure if it was age or race discrimination. This happened over two years ago at my local Gander Mountain. I went in to buy a Taurus PT-145 and there was an employee there (who still works there by the way), who has never really been too friendly to me. (I had another incident with him later on which I will explain after this one).

Anyway, he had seen me in there numerous times before handling the firearms and such. I was in there early that morning and I was the only customer around and he was the only person behind the firearms counter. (Doing nothing but standing there). I finally ask him, after about five minutes of standing there not getting helped, can I see the PT-145 that was in the case. Now keep in mind, I said I have been in there plenty of times before and he had been in there almost everytime I was in there. He ASKS for my ID!!!! I had never been asked for my ID in Gander Mountain before except when I was purchasing. I hadn't told him that I was purchasing yet. To him I just wanted to hold the gun but I knew that's what I came into purchase. After the initial shock, I get my license out and hand it to him. He looks at it and back at me for nearly a minute and hands it back to me and gets the gun out. I 'look' at the gun for all of two seconds and said "I want it".

His faced changed IMMEDIATELY. He turned very red and was all of a sudden very nice. "Yes sir, we'll go ahead and start on your paperwork...blah..blah...blah...Anything else you'd like to see?" I told him no and proceeded with the paperwork. I will say this; my initial shock was met with great satisfaction when I saw his face and whole attitude change. That was one of the best moments of my life to see that I had gotten the best of him. Now pretty much everybody that works in the firearms dept. knows me, with the exception of the newest people ,and I get pretty good service whenever I go in there. I guess sometime the best way to get back at people is to do what they least expect.

xjchief
April 13, 2008, 08:25 PM
I hate everyone equally. :D

Only half kidding. :)

Wopasaurus
April 13, 2008, 08:34 PM
On a side note....


What is it with Illinois? We don't have Nazi's down here at our gunshows.


There's nothing worse than Illinois Nazis.


-- John

I hate Illinois Nazis.

+1 on the Blues Bros. reference

JWarren
April 13, 2008, 08:41 PM
Wopasaurus,

I hate Illinois Nazis.

+1 on the Blues Bros. reference


Thank you! I was hoping someone caught it. :)


-- John

42
April 13, 2008, 08:42 PM
well remember as avenue q sings "everyone is a little bit racist"

serously rofiling happens it sucks but smile be polite and restrained and above all high road and you will succeed in MOST!!! cases. Some people well there are some who annot be dealt with.

I get it a lot physical disability apparantly = retard. I disagree I am polite confident and restrained but occasionally I will deal with some one soo obnoxious I will argue. case in point, I wheeled into a cafe with a friend my friend was asked what I wanted to drink. :banghead: Imust confess my respnse was not high road at all.

plexreticle
April 13, 2008, 09:52 PM
I feel racism/intolerance/belittlement is ingrained in the US culture. It is often so subtle that most people don't even realize they are doing. Often its not meant to be malicious but it's there anyway. I see it in these very forums.

To address the OP's comments; The gun sales and range industry is a magnet for narrow-minded loud mouths and know it alls. I don't know why but it's seems to be that way since as long as I can remember. This is one reason why I prefer private sales when I can.

I have found gun enthusiast in general to be the nicest folks you can hang around with. Club shoots and target matches especially. Just the store-front/ guns show guys seem to live in a world of their own for some reason.

Feanaro
April 13, 2008, 09:57 PM
I've been in several gun shops wearing a Pink Floyd t-shirt and tattered jeans. I've been in the same stores wearing slacks and a button-down. There was a different in service without any difference in my attitude(and my wallet certainly didn't get any fatter when I stuffed it in my slacks). The salespeople were never outright rude but they were more reluctant to turn their attention to me and the smile wasn't nearly as wide. Perhaps it's being young, perhaps they didn't think I had the money, whatever. (Sometimes I prefer the neglect though, it's easier to deal with than constantly being steered towards a $4000 1911)

It's not exclusive to the gun industry though. I can certainly tell you that.

Just Jim
April 13, 2008, 09:58 PM
Just Jim........ requests that the thread be shut down..................AND then posts several more times.

The lady (man) doth protest too much!

Well, yesterday there was a thread that was locked about Charelton Heston. What locked it was his stand against liberal gun grabbers and a 20 year old liberal college student demanded the thread be closed.

So I figured if someone conservative demanded the thread be shut down then the mods would keep it open and conversation would be satisfied.Thought I would try it today and it works just great.

jj

Huddog
April 13, 2008, 10:00 PM
I agree with Just Jim, I really don't see how this is firearms related but I did only read page one because I got bored with it.

Feanaro
April 13, 2008, 10:06 PM
Well, yesterday there was a thread that was locked about Charelton Heston. What locked it was his stand against liberal gun grabbers and a 20 year old liberal college student demanded the thread be closed.

It couldn't have been the poster who was hoping out loud that either all liberals or just the ones complaining about Heston, the context wasn't quite clear, get AIDS or a drug addiction.

MIL-DOT
April 13, 2008, 10:17 PM
Same here, only read page one ( and i'm from georgia,too), but i've often found gunstore owners ( employees to a somewhat lesser degree) to often be distant,short,rude,know-it-all,irritable,jerks. I've observed this syndrome over several decades now, in several states, and have even seen and participated in threads concerning this on THR before. I haven't seen this tendency in bike shops,scuba shops,outdoor retailers,or any other type of buisness like i've seen it in the gun retail buisness.And now that i know it's likely coming, i go in with an extra big smile,lots of "yes sirs" and "no hurry at all", but you know, come to think of it, you're probably right, they ARE racist !!! They mus' be dissin' me cuz
i'm WHITE !!!!!!!:neener:

MIL-DOT
April 13, 2008, 10:30 PM
" I feel racism/intolerance/belittlement is ingrained in the US culture. "

OK, i might get busted here , but i gotta say something....THAT'S the stupidest thing i've read here in a long time !!! Spoken like someome who's never spent much time outside the country. I've lived most of the last 20 years outside the U.S. so unlike most of my chest-thumping fellow Americans,i HAVE experienced racism, and i can tell you with assurity, it lives and breathes outside our borders,too. In fact, in much of the rest of the world, they don't just tell a few "off-color" jokes,or cop you a little attitude at the check-out counter, they machine gun whole families and bulldoze them into mass graves.
So before you go spouting the party line from CNN, why don't you hop on a plane and take a look around. For all it's flaws and shortcomings,the United States is among the LEAST racist countries on the planet.

hobgob
April 13, 2008, 10:40 PM
You just have to get to know your local gunshop employees and range officers. The first few times i went to the range the guys were a little irritable. But after going there for a few years and talking to the guys, they are nice people. Now that they know who I am, they let me in on the good deals and we stand around and talk about the new merch they just got in. BTW this thread is spiraling out.

Travis Lee
April 13, 2008, 11:07 PM
Good for you Mildot.

I think there have plenty of threads on the subject of gun shop jerks, anecdotes of rude treatment of women, guys under 30, and people wearing clothes other than suits.

uh huh... welcome to grown up life.

Must be nice to blame every slight in life on racism.
Given the tone of the numerous postings of the OP, I would look elsewhere, for his social issues.

What I especially resent is the wide ranging accusation of gun shop people being out and out racist and the hardly veiled imputation of racism to the firearms community at large.

In the PC environment of today the ACCUSATION or SUGGESTION of racism means that I am obligated to bow, bend and scrape, assure everyone that while white, all of my best friends are black, hispanic, or one-legged homosexuals, and I so, SO sincerely and abjectly sumbit myself to as much humiliation as required if people will just please, PLEASE stop calling me the "R" word. (snivel snivel)

Find another victim for racial mau mauing.

--Travis--

Thor Bloodax
April 13, 2008, 11:18 PM
Hey, TNTWATT, I live in middle Ga too and I have seen the lynching photos, KKK, Natzi stuff at gun shows in Macon but that was 20 or so years ago. None lately not even the rude bumper stickers. I did not see anyone buyingfrom these tables, just identifying and ignoring. The sales seem slow at all the recent shows I have been to and the clerks/owners/etc seem to be eager to serve any interested person. Even though Macon is about 55% black Americans, I see very few black American people at the shows. They are not excluded but just don't show up. What is new in this area in the last few years is tables run by black Americans or Asian Americans. All the gun stores I have been in in Middle Georgia seem to be very egalitarian.

plexreticle
April 13, 2008, 11:19 PM
"I feel racism/intolerance/belittlement is ingrained in the US culture. It is often so subtle that most people don't even realize they are doing. Often its not meant to be malicious but it's there anyway. I see it in these very forums."

MIL-DOT: OK, i might get busted here , but i gotta say something....THAT'S the stupidest thing i've read here in a long time !!! Spoken like someome who's never spent much time outside the country. I've lived most of the last 20 years outside the U.S. so unlike most of my chest-thumping fellow Americans,i HAVE experienced racism, and i can tell you with assurity, it lives and breathes outside our borders,too. In fact, in much of the rest of the world, they don't just tell a few "off-color" jokes,or cop you a little attitude at the check-out counter, they machine gun whole families and bulldoze them into mass graves.
So before you go spouting the party line from CNN, why don't you hop on a plane and take a look around. For all it's flaws and shortcomings,the United States is among the LEAST racist countries on the planet.

Who said it doesn't happen outside the US? So your saying I'm wrong? How are my comments America bashing?

LOL, too funny, you really have no idea what you're talking about.

HE SAID SOMETHING BAD ABOUT USA!!! HE HATE HIS COUNTRY HE WATCHES CNN AND IS BRAIN WASHED!!!

Do you own a gun shop by any chance?

moga
April 13, 2008, 11:19 PM
I've certainly experienced "ageism" while buying firearms but not sure if I've been a victim of "racism" while at a show/shop. Not sure how to tell the difference without an overt act to clear it up.

Who cares though? As someone else has said, just take your money elsewhere. Lots of good people to deal with in the country.

Sidebar: I'm confused and maybe someone can help. Is the setting for this thread DFW, TEXAS or somewhere in GA? Cause I understood it to be Dallas-Fort Worth but I keep noticing GA pop up here and there.

no_problem
April 13, 2008, 11:33 PM
<<i can appreciate the advice blackbeard, but i was wearing what i always wear on my free time. jeans and a t-shirt and possibly a baseball cap. having worked in retail i can say from first hand experience that people will surprise you. the guy wearing a t-shirt and shorts is just as likely to drop $5000 in your store as the guy in a pinstripe suit and $300 loafers.>>

Yes, it's true. You can't judge a book by it's cover. In certain part of the world, people who have money intentionally dress down to "blend in" with the populace. It's a strategy to deceive the criminals. That mental model has been spread out here in the US as well.

<<i just want to know if i'm alone or if anyone else gets the "potential al qaeda look when going to certain gun shops. >>

Yes, I have experienced it. My reaction is simple. If you are selling something, I have money, If I am not happy, money walks. Buh bye!

NDGeek
April 13, 2008, 11:46 PM
"I feel racism/intolerance/belittlement is ingrained in the US culture. It is often so subtle that most people don't even realize they are doing. Often its not meant to be malicious but it's there anyway. I see it in these very forums."

The best thing about America is that we actually have these discussions. If you go around the world most places are much more intolerant than we are.

If you look for racism, you will find it. If you continously think you are being descriminated again, you will find ways to prove it.

Going through life playing the victim solves nothing.

The culture you practice and the way you present yourself matter much more than the color of your skin. Race is an after thought if you are a decent guy who presents himself as a normal person.

When someone pulls the race card they loose all credibility in my mind (not saying you did this).

That is my $.02.

Where is the fark.com "That's racist" kid when you need him.

BTW this thread is spiraling out.

Yes, I would have to agree

MIL-DOT
April 14, 2008, 12:03 AM
(quote)"I feel racism/intolerance/belittlement is ingrained in the US culture. It is often so subtle that most people don't even realize they are doing. Often its not meant to be malicious but it's there anyway. I see it in these very forums."

(quote)"Who said it doesn't happen outside the US? So your saying I'm wrong? How are my comments America bashing?

(quote)LOL, too funny, you really have no idea what you're talking about."

Your statement "racism...belittlement is ingrained in the US culture", very clearly implies that you mean MORE than everywhere else. Learn what the words mean before you use them,you'll likely find it very helpful. So,yes, comparatively speaking, you're wrong. How are your comments "America bashing"? When you essentially state that America is composed of born and bred racists, while the fact of the matter remains that America is more obsessed with eliminating all traces of racism than any country on the planet,that constitutes ignorance of the facts,and yes, "America bashing". Show me another country that has as many foreign ( or non-majority) individuals as members of their national sports teams, mayors of major cities,police chiefs,corporate heads,not to mention a Secretary of State and a Presidential front runner.
Yeah, OK, i got no idea what i'm talking about. And my 15-20 years living and working abroad are further testament to my lack of knowledge on the subject of ethnic relations (BTW, i'm typing this from my job Roatan,Honduras).

plexreticle
April 14, 2008, 01:05 AM
Your statement "racism...belittlement is ingrained in the US culture", very clearly implies that you mean MORE than everywhere else. Learn what the words mean before you use them,you'll likely find it very helpful. So,yes, comparatively speaking, you're wrong. How are your comments "America bashing"? When you essentially state that America is composed of born and bred racists, while the fact of the matter remains that America is more obsessed with eliminating all traces of racism than any country on the planet,that constitutes ignorance of the facts,and yes, "America bashing". Show me another country that has as many foreign ( or non-majority) individuals as members of their national sports teams, mayors of major cities,police chiefs,corporate heads,not to mention a Secretary of State and a Presidential front runner.
Yeah, OK, i got no idea what i'm talking about. And my 15-20 years living and working abroad are further testament to my lack of knowledge on the subject of ethnic relations (BTW, i'm typing this from my job Roatan,Honduras).

You infer from my comments I haven't traveled abroad, I watch CNN or any television at all and I am comparing the US to other countries and that I feel I know more than anybody else. How you came up with that is beyond me. I didn't say the US is more racist that other countries. Something you are clinging to even though it was never suggested by me.

If you honestly believe there isn't a subtle racisms/belittlement ingrained in US culture then you really are out of touch with America. Anything motivated by race, benign, well intended or ill intended is racist. Television programing is especially bad so is our current presidential elections.

It's a simple concept really, sorry you're missing it. Not that you're interested but, look up the word subtle and perhaps you'll begin to grasp some the concept. I'm not talking about lynchings and apartheid.

MIL-DOT
April 14, 2008, 01:26 AM
(quote) "Anything motivated by race, benign, well intended or ill intended is racist."
OK, i think we're on the same page with that one, though i'm not quite sure. We both may well be misunderstanding each other.At any rate, it's late, and i'm ready to hit the rack,so no hard feelings, catch you later......M.:)

akodo
April 14, 2008, 02:48 AM
will pretty much crap on any gun you mention that isn't made in the US or by dark people in another part of the world like beretta and taurus.

Okay, we have all met jerk customer service, especially at the big stores. The brass pro guy was probably just lazy and thought you were a lookie loo.

now, take a look at that statement about guns

#1 buy American! That isn't racist, that is something I'll tell anyone.

#2 Italians are generally considered white. Berettas are yesterday's news. Scratch that, they are 1980s news. The 92F was a market breakthrough, but they have been playing catchup ever since then

#3 Okay, "white" handgun makers...humm, who would a gunshop push besides USA? Glock and HK! Austria and Germany! Mostly white yes, but people push those guns because they are good, or because fanboys love them. I don't see any racism there.

Test it out by asking about the FN 5-7 or the FNP, or ask them about the tokerov or similar russian stuff.

I mean, if they badmouth taurus it is because taurus is crap, same with rossi, etc etc.

Do they badmouth the specialty shotguns made in japan?

plexreticle
April 14, 2008, 04:00 AM
(quote) "Anything motivated by race, benign, well intended or ill intended is racist."
OK, i think we're on the same page with that one, though i'm not quite sure. We both may well be misunderstanding each other.At any rate, it's late, and i'm ready to hit the rack,so no hard feelings, catch you later......M.

Agreed, I'm glad we could discuss it. :)

Dookie
April 14, 2008, 05:42 AM
I live in the inland northwest, when they took the census it turns out the area is about 95% white. We are the epitome of the "I have a black friend joke". In the 4 or five gun shops I go to I have not seen any racism. When I was in one of the local class 3 dealers in walk 3 Mexicans, I assume they were Mexican, accent, look, pigment, clothing, but I could be mistaken, dressed in baggy clothes, sideways hats, and all had CCW. Talk about being able to easily conceal. all had license for suppressors and were obviously good friends with the owner.
In the area I live in, the racism is not generally toward people who are not white, it is directed toward Russians, and the satellite nationalities.
I have not seen any of the lynching pics at gun shows, but there is quite a bit of Nazi collectibles. Guns, knives, ect. But I consider that as history and not necessarily racist.
Across the border they have a yearly white pride parade, the remnant of a white supremacy compound, it gets fewer and fewer participants every year, AND all the businesses close for the duration of the parade. The only reason they allow them to march is because of freedom of speech and something about it being unfair to not allow them to march when they allow others.
I have even cut off ties with some friends I had for years because of their views. especially considering my best friend is black, AND lives in Texas, talk about pissing me off. Now she has told me some horror stories about how she was treated, and she is a very clean cut, high standard woman.
Most of white America has absolutely no idea what people from other nationalities deal with, I know I don't. It is an unfortunate fact of life that is slowly getting weeded out, to slowly I might add.
I honestly believe that most gun owner, not just people who own guns, but people who are believers in all the amendments and are fighting for personal rights are the least bigoted group out there. I have seen advertisements that are directed at other races to get them into firearms, not just for money, but for the reason that it helps dispel myths about race. To me they are saying, look, this guy who is black carries a concealed weapon, he in not a gang banger, he is an upstanding citizen.

I am going to stop typing because it is 1:40 and have a cranking headache, and am getting long winded. Is long winded the correct terminology when typing?

qajaq59
April 14, 2008, 08:23 AM
You don't have to be a minority to run into idiotic, nasty or bad mannered store clerks. Whether you're are in a gun store or a shoe store. And it has nothing to do with their being prejudice. Some people are just badly brought up and/or dumb.

ImARugerFan
April 14, 2008, 10:53 AM
Did you ever happen to think that the reason Bass Pro wouldn't special order an HK p2000sk for you is because Bass Pro in general does not like dealing with compact pistols? How many other compact pistols have you ever seen at Bass Pro?

That's silly talk. If they deal with HK in general they can/will order you any gun they sell. It's not the guy behind the counter's job to decide whether or not to sell a particular model.

PaStEuRiZeD
April 14, 2008, 11:39 AM
Crap happens. There are racists everywhere I figure you would know that by now.

I hate when people ask to have a thread shut down. "it is just not very high road" . America is free speech. High road is pro freedom. Do the math and get over yourself. Let others have their freedoms.

Ltlabner
April 14, 2008, 11:48 AM
Some clerks at gun-stores are racists.

Some clerks at gun-stores are jerks.

Some clerks at gun-stores are both.

Because someone is a jerk doesn't mean they are a racist. Because they are a racist doesn't necessarly mean they will treat you like a jerk.

And some folks simply can't help themselves and display their tallent of being both a racist and a jerk at the same time.

And many clerks at gun-stores are friendly, helpfull people that love to talk all-things gun if you show them respect and don't act like a racist or jerk yourself.

ByAnyMeans
April 14, 2008, 02:58 PM
I haver seen racism, sexism, classism and ageism at gunshops and shows as well as many other places done by many different types of people. I know it was done based on these things due to the explanation given when the peron leaves or is no longer present. Such as "woman can't handle that gun ; Your two old to learn these new guns stick to your revolver". I however cannot say I have ever had it done to me and that's because if they don't explicitly state why they are treating you as they are then you really don't know if it's due to any of the "isms" we have created. Live your life and don 't look to explain anothers behaviour because it will lead you down a pointless road.

nothinspecial
April 14, 2008, 03:02 PM
Some people are simply said; Too Sensitive.

There is racism towards every race by every race. It will never stop. So deal with it. I'm not whining b/c I had to wait 25minutes for an order in a black owned and operated resturant, when 3 black people who came in behind me got thier order in less time. It was obvious racism, but boofreakinhoo. Life's not always fair. boohoo

paramedic70002
April 14, 2008, 04:22 PM
OK I'm white. I have no problems with blacks that I know, just like I have no problem with whites I know. Strangers are NOT OK. But I am not in retail, where the rules change. If I were selling guns, I might seem a little uptight if a banger came into my shop. And I have to confess having a little more worry over the average man of color than the average white. This may be a result of conditioning in my youth (my parents were a little racist, you know how it was more acceptable 30-40 years ago) or it may be due to stats and news reports that show greater street level crime among minorities.

Several months ago I stopped for gas and noticed another customer at the pump with an open carry pistol. Young black kid, dressed hip hop, with a few friends. Did I startle? Yep. But after about 3 seconds I put myself in check. I subconsciously went with the stereotype until higher reasoning kicked in. What does that say about me? Am I a racist in denial/recovery?

I can believe 100% that there is at least one racist gun dealer out there. Been there and seen it. And can't deny the assertation that racially motivated people are one of the sub groups attracted to guns.

Find it hard to believe that gun owners would discriminate against fellow gun owners based on race? Remember back in the 60s when Christian whites were lynching, burning and bombing Christian blacks in and out of Christian churches?

MarcusWendt
April 14, 2008, 04:56 PM
I'll admit that I've both seen it and been guilty of it. Where I buy guns and shoot at their range, there are a lot of people who dress and look like gang members. I'll admit I don't like it and I know the owner doesn't either, but I will say neither I nor any of his employees has ever treated these people badly, but we've all wondered if the gun being sol to them would end up being used in a crime.

buck00
April 14, 2008, 05:15 PM
Its these darn people in small towns! They cling to their gun shops, religion, and whacky ideas!! ;)

2nd 41
April 14, 2008, 05:31 PM
If you do not like the salesperson move on. That's my policy on any item I buy. Guns, cars, clothes, toothpicks....anything.

Snipe315
April 14, 2008, 06:28 PM
I'm a black man originally from NYC. I've travelled across this country 4 times and around the world 3 courtesy the USMC.

I've seen the best and worst mankind has to offer in almost every place. I've felt the sting of racism in the USA and abroad. It hasn't been isolated to one particular group, race, religion, or country.

I've met outstanding men from many nations including Japan, Korea, France, German, the UK, and several countries in Africa. Many view and judge people based on their actions, not their skin color... And some don't.

I usually receive far treatement in firearm establishments. A lot of that is because of my bearing and the way I present myself. When at a range, if I didn't get respect prior to shooting, I definitely earn it by the time I'm done (I can hit the broad side of a barn). :cool:

There are exceptions to every rule. A long time ago, I had someone with several Accuracy International rifles and AICS stocked Remington 700s tell me that the Stage 2.0 version was meant to make it concealable (DUH! :fire:) when I asked to check one out. I also remember getting the feeling I was taking up valuable space from the @#$%! at B&B guns in OC California.

But I've also received amazingly great service from several shops and ranges in Georgia.

There are idiots and fools in every group. But I've found that people can be very respectful, especially when you've got a firearm on you. :evil:

againstthagrane
April 14, 2008, 06:31 PM
"#2 Italians are generally considered white. Berettas are yesterday's news. Scratch that, they are 1980s news. The 92F was a market breakthrough, but they have been playing catchup ever since then"

that's like...your opinion, man:neener:

on a more serious note, i cannot stand when people refuse to accept the presence of a problem because "its way worse in X country". "oh you think health care is bad in america? try going to X." "oh you think dating fat girl is bad? try dating a guy..." and so on...just because someone else has it worse doesn't mean that a problem doesn't exist. we only get one chance at life why wouldn't you want the best for yourself and your country. if anything me caring about racism means i love america more than the people who blindly go through life ignoring it or pointing out how much worse it is in other areas.

CBS220
April 14, 2008, 06:40 PM
Everyone cares about the problems in their country.

But that's no excuse to go seeing racism where it isn't.

againstthagrane
April 14, 2008, 08:41 PM
how would you know if it was there or not, cbs? were you at the gun store? did you see the interaction that took place? did you see how others were treated and then compare it to my treatment?

no frame of reference.

Don Lu
April 14, 2008, 09:34 PM
againstthagrane...I personally have seen racism and expirienced it at gunshows (plural) and gun shops (plural). I chimed in earlier to give my expiriences. I think its getting to the point now where you have to realize you are only doing one of two things: preaching to the choir with people who have seen the racism that you asked about or two,Talking to a brick wall w/people who refuse to acknowledge that it may exist.

I know for myself. I have lived in the same community for 5 yrs now..drove up and down the street and never noticed the car that was driven by on of my neighbors until I got the same car...now I notice it in my neighborhood and am more likey to take notice of a Cadillac CTS just about anywhere now that my antena is up. thats just human nature...point is, people are more likely to notice things they have a rerason to notice (how many of us scream out the name of a gun on the movies we watch and the person who isnt a gunnut has no idea what you are talking about...be honest..lol). The same "gangbanger" looking kid that makes some people in this thread nervous or uncomfortable will not make me uncomfortable in the least as long as what they are doin isnt making me nervous, but that goes for anyone regardless of how you look or dress.

very much of topic for my reply, but I have found this assertation to be true

can't deny the assertation that racially motivated people are one of the sub groups attracted to guns.

In fairness this is for all races radical/ extreme ..be it, KKK, old black panthers, Islamic extremist ect, ...its seems that exremist loves thier guns..

Brenainn
April 14, 2008, 09:58 PM
Try being a 21 year old female, about 4' 11'' 100lbs. who looks about 17 y/o!

I get it all the time. They typically don't give me the time of day because they assume I couldn't afford anything or legally buy it, so therefore, I would be a waste of time. Grrrr...

againstthagrane
April 14, 2008, 10:16 PM
"(how many of us scream out the name of a gun on the movies we watch and the person who isnt a gunnut has no idea what you are talking about...be honest..lol)."

i have not done that...today.

Downr@nge
April 14, 2008, 10:43 PM
Just so you guys know, there is a firearms store named "Zues Guns & Ammo" in Cardiff, NJ. The guys there are great and definitely NOT racist. In fact, they are quite nice! I went in there and asked about a HK gun and he then went on to give me a mini class on semi autos and how to operate a handgun properly. This went on for about 30 minutes. An because the clerk (kevin) was so helpful, I'll do ALL my business with him.

mbs357
April 14, 2008, 10:51 PM
Been the victim of racism plenty of times in this area (I'm in the minority), but as far as in stores, not so much. Mostly in school with the jerkfaces, but those days are passed.

lonegunman
April 14, 2008, 11:16 PM
I too live in the inland northwest. While the area is 95% caucasian, it really is not racist at all. If you can act ina normal manner you get treated pretty well at nearly every gunstore in town no matter what color your skin happens to be.

If you act like an idiot, out of work gangsta, neo-nazi wanna be or just a general PITA, you will be suprised how cold the room can be. I'm a big fan of including every interested person in the sport. The more people lawfully enjoying firearms, the better off we all are.

I have a buddy in Georgia. He was telling me the other day about an arabic looking guy walking onto the gunstore/range 15 minutes before closing. The guy asked if he "HAD" to fill out paperwork for a gun. The owner replied, "YES". He then asked about buying a couple of Glocks and maybe a sniper rifle. When the owner refused to show him any guns without ID, the guy got mad and stomped off.

Would you call the gun store racist or the customer a bit odd?

Don Lu
April 14, 2008, 11:33 PM
im not sure what it was...but I've never been asked to show id to view or handle a gun in a gunshop or gunshow...THAT is what I would feel strange about...unless that's the common thing at that store...BUT I've been to many shops and shows....never been asked for ID.

againstthagrane
April 15, 2008, 12:36 AM
"I have a buddy in Georgia. He was telling me the other day about an arabic looking guy walking onto the gunstore/range 15 minutes before closing. The guy asked if he "HAD" to fill out paperwork for a gun. The owner replied, "YES". He then asked about buying a couple of Glocks and maybe a sniper rifle. When the owner refused to show him any guns without ID, the guy got mad and stomped off."

honestly, yeah, i think that was racial profiling. if he wanted to BUY them and wouldn't show ID then i would have no problem showing him the door. unless he looked like he was under 18 i don't see why they wouldn't show him the gun. i have a feeling people looking to commit acts of terrorism could obtain guns without going to the neighborhood gun shop.
BUT, i don't see why the guy just wouldn't show the owner any ID, that's a little shady and worthy of some further investigation.

jmabbott888@aol.com
April 15, 2008, 01:17 AM
Just out of curiosity how old do you look? I've have been "hassled" at the range & at gunshops in my younger days for looking to young to be there alone. I've been given the cold shoulder too when looking at a car cause of what I'm wearing, it's not smart on the sellers side (seen that first hand at Mercedes when the salesmen wouldn't help a young lady in her early 20's, turned out she was an actress from the show Roswell lol).

marksman13
April 15, 2008, 01:19 AM
Againstthagrane, first, I'll comment on your original statements. Yes, there is racism in the gun community, but I do not think the gun community to be any more racist than any other group of people. I am a 23 year old white male with a military background, and I have seen as much racism directed towards me as any black, asian, or middle eastern person ever has.

I have felt ignored at gun stores just as you have. I suspect that the employees figured I was there to kick tires and didn't have much money to spend. Am I saying that's what happened to you? No. I don't know what happened in your situation. I wasn't there, but I would not be suprised if the employee was racist. Racism is everywhere.

Second, I do feel as though you had a handful of folks that jumped on you pretty hard in the first couple pages of this thread. No reason for someone to arrogantly demand that this thread be closed. I don't see anything in your first post that claims that gunowners are racist. That said, you came off a little arrogant yourself. Would I have acted the same way, under the same circumstances, probably. You got a raw deal from the start and I hope that you are not judged in this light for the rest of your stay in this forum.

Third, welcome to The High Road. You'll find that many of the members here are polite, considerate and open-minded. Be careful to avoid comments that can taken as personal attacks and you will get along well here.

RenardSubtil
April 15, 2008, 01:25 AM
Maybe it's where you're from but I've yet to have a bad experience with gun owners at the range or at shops. In fact, it been quite the opposite. People seem to go out their way to talk to me and share gun stories.

I kinda go out of my way to be formal and show courtesy though so I dunno, maybe it's my demeanor that gets me what i want...btw, I'm a 30 yr old 5'4" asian dude and I prolly resemble some high school grad :p

neededausername
April 15, 2008, 01:32 AM
I'm a manager of a retail store, and while we don't we don't sell guns or ammo, I don't care what color you are. As long as I see green I'm happy. If a store owner/manager doesn't understand that don't go there, I won't.

lvcat2004
April 15, 2008, 02:06 AM
Many of you who work in gun stores or retail have said the same thing, as long as you see green, the color of the person doesn't matter.

The problem here is that, some people associate more/less green with certain ethnicity, thus resulting in variations on how they are treated even before the green is seen.

I believe that such behavior truly happens, intentionally or subconscioulsy, but this also extends to gender as well as how one present himself/herself and his/her demanor. I think it's just fact of life. You just move on instead of worrying about it because I'm not gonna waste my time straighting everyone out.

againstthagrane
April 15, 2008, 02:11 AM
"Just out of curiosity how old do you look? I've have been "hassled" at the range & at gunshops in my younger days for looking to young to be there alone. I've been given the cold shoulder too when looking at a car cause of what I'm wearing, it's not smart on the sellers side (seen that first hand at Mercedes when the salesmen wouldn't help a young lady in her early 20's, turned out she was an actress from the show Roswell lol)."

i'm 25, but i probably look between 25-28

jmabbott888@aol.com
April 15, 2008, 02:16 AM
Ok, well that idea is out (thinking you are under age from the get go)

cowssurf
April 15, 2008, 02:29 AM
Just Jim's famous quote: "Time to shut this thread down, it isn't the high road. ( I seen a liberal ask for it yesterday so I am asking today.)"

I hope this thread isn't shut down. I once started a thread in an honest inquiry regarding political affiliations of gun owners. The responses were very informative, and very mature and respectful. The thread was quickly shut down. I was sad.

Well this issue is much more important and a-propos. I certainly hope it does not get shut down because a few people who've never experienced racism are convinced that others who have are imagining the racism. That is such an insult to a victim of racism. You weren't even there and you claim it doesn't exist and the victim is blowing things out of proportion. This is a topic that is extremely important to the high road. Isn't the high road about 2nd ammendment rights? The second ammendment makes no distinction with regards to race, ethinicity, creed, or religion. It is disgusting that private citizens and gun sellers should practice such bigotry. Of course a private merchant is allowed to refuse service to whomever they want. But just like posts about Walmart infringing upon gun buyers' privacy gets a lot of attention and becomes a rallying point for people to call for a boycott, we, as 2A supporters have a moral obligation to take the high road and rally around one of our members who has been the recipient of racism and boycott such racist establishments. Why should one of our members who has felt such injustice be muted by us or our moderators?

Prince Yamato
April 15, 2008, 02:58 AM
I'm a white guy in his mid-20s, and I'll chime in... YES, I've witnessed racism at gun shops and gun shows. I had a guy at a gun show with Nazi memorabilia. He showed me an Adolph Hitler postcard and said, "It would make a great gift for your friends in Haifa". Except, oh wait, my Israeli friends are from Haifa.

I've also witnessed a dealer defer a black customer to guns that were "more in his price range" (ie, Jiminez and a bunch of saturday night specials). I also listened to another gun store employee talk about how glad he was that he had a CCW " 'cause one time this black came up to him who look like he was up to no good."

Remember that some gun owners who embody the typical "stereotype" think everyone is like them: White, Republican, Born-Again Christian, SUV-driving, a hunter, owns a big dog, etc. When their bubble is burst, they may not know how to cope. Or they may just continue to live in their bubble where they think that people who "choose to be gay" want to take away their guns, slash the tires on their H2, and pin their eye-lids open so that they can force them to read, "The Origin of Species".

So yes, racism does still occur within the gun community, but then again, it occurs in the community at large. For our part on THR, we try to combat it (note that unlike other gun forums, we don't take kindly to gay bashing). I'm sorry that you had to encounter it, but rest assured, incidents like this will diminish as time moves on.

As for me, I'm off to read GQ, then head to bed...

againstthagrane
April 15, 2008, 03:02 AM
gay bashing?

bogie
April 15, 2008, 04:08 AM
There are the folks who assume that folks who are dressed for a night on the town are "gangsters." Yeah, well, not everyone lives in the city, you know?

But profiling? If some guy walks in, and he is putting out a vibe that he wants to do something not quite kosher, I'm going to find any excuse to get him to walk out the door that I can.

My former favorite gun store (now out of business due to a death in the family) had a guy come in once - he proceeded to "try on" a shot gun, to see if he could reach the trigger with the barrel to his head. They refused to sell him a gun. Some of y'all would argue that it was his right to purchase it. Fine. They called around to other stores, to let them know not to sell him one. Until they go one guy who replied "Thanks - I'll make sure he pays cash."

Sick.

Travis Lee
April 15, 2008, 05:04 AM
If it is so reprehensible to think that the pimp-walking guy dressed in thug wear is actually a thug, why is it so acceptable to assume that the white guy who votes republican, and drives an SUV is a racist, gay bashing, knuckle-dragging, holy roller who dances with snakes?

WOW, some of you guys have seen offensive photographs, and heard offensive comments by bigots. How have you survived the trauma?

Offending YOU is just evil, offending ME is, well..... it's just your right to be a bigot, and as a "typical white guy" I don't deserve any civility at all, do I? "Typical White guys" don't have an entire grievance industry to protect us from being offended.

Autolycus
April 15, 2008, 10:33 AM
All these people keep talking about gangbangers, thugs, and others and I have to ask...

what does a gangbanger, thug, banger etc. look like that you can tell right off the bat?

JohnBT
April 15, 2008, 11:01 AM
Like the folks in some of those videos I flip by on cable? You know, the ones who say they dress like them, act like them and sing about them. I probably have less fear of the real ones than the wannabees.

Otherwise, I'd have to rely on the pics of the convicted ones I've seen in the paper.

Heck, if a guy walked in wearing a baseball uniform I'd probably assume he was a ballplayer. Maybe not, but I'm not going to assume right off the bat he isn't.

Then there are the easy ones. They're wearing the name of their motorcycle club or gang right on their back. Don't even need to look at their tats.

John

ambush
April 15, 2008, 11:28 AM
I live in one of the supposedly "progressive" states in the nation. Everybody loves everybody, peace , love and marijuana and all that. I have NEVER been discriminated against while at a gun store or shop. I was however once trying to buy a jar of Jamaican jerk sauce in a store in South Brunswick and was told to "Get the f**K out of my store whitey". I set the jar down and walked out. His prerogative...I left and never gave it another thought. I didn't have the urge to contact any support or activist groups or picket or complain to the ACLU, etc., etc. Go figure.

Blackbeard
April 15, 2008, 01:28 PM
"I have a buddy in Georgia. He was telling me the other day about an arabic looking guy walking onto the gunstore/range 15 minutes before closing. The guy asked if he "HAD" to fill out paperwork for a gun. The owner replied, "YES". He then asked about buying a couple of Glocks and maybe a sniper rifle. When the owner refused to show him any guns without ID, the guy got mad and stomped off."

honestly, yeah, i think that was racial profiling. if he wanted to BUY them and wouldn't show ID then i would have no problem showing him the door. unless he looked like he was under 18 i don't see why they wouldn't show him the gun. i have a feeling people looking to commit acts of terrorism could obtain guns without going to the neighborhood gun shop.
BUT, i don't see why the guy just wouldn't show the owner any ID, that's a little shady and worthy of some further investigation.

My local gun shop made me show my ID before they'd show me a gun the first time I went in there. It's a store policy probably because they won't show guns to people who aren't legally allowed to buy them. They don't ask for my ID anymore because they know me and know that my FOID is good for another year and a half.

marksman13
April 16, 2008, 03:57 AM
WOW, some of you guys have seen offensive photographs, and heard offensive comments by bigots. How have you survived the trauma?

Offending YOU is just evil, offending ME is, well..... it's just your right to be a bigot, and as a "typical white guy" I don't deserve any civility at all, do I? "Typical White guys" don't have an entire grievance industry to protect us from being offended.

Travis, we can agree in one respect. There are alot of people keeping racism alive in this country, and alot of them are not white males. I have been discriminated against because I was white, because I was American, and because I was in the military. I feel like you. The best thing to do is get over it. Let it slide.

When we ignore racism, it loses power over us. When we make it into a joke, we destroy it all together.

The OP wasn't saying that racism is rampant in the gun world. He merely stated that he felt discriminated against, and was looking for others who shared a common experience. What is so wrong with that? I wouldn't have brought the subject up, but in a way I am glad he did. Like it or not, as gun owners we are often stereotyped as white-trash rednecks, or gang-banging thugs. All races in the gun community will have to fight a stereotype at some point or another. Perhaps it would be best if we took notes from each other on the subject instead of getting angry.

Ltlabner
April 16, 2008, 07:12 AM
"I have a buddy in Georgia. He was telling me the other day about an arabic looking guy walking onto the gunstore/range 15 minutes before closing. The guy asked if he "HAD" to fill out paperwork for a gun. The owner replied, "YES". He then asked about buying a couple of Glocks and maybe a sniper rifle. When the owner refused to show him any guns without ID, the guy got mad and stomped off."

honestly, yeah, i think that was racial profiling. if he wanted to BUY them and wouldn't show ID then i would have no problem showing him the door. unless he looked like he was under 18 i don't see why they wouldn't show him the gun. i have a feeling people looking to commit acts of terrorism could obtain guns without going to the neighborhood gun shop.

But why does this *have* to mean racisim?

Could it not be an owner who's had a bad day and doesn't want to yank out a couple of Glocks and maybe a rifle or two 15 minutes before the shop closes down? I mean, it's not real good business, but does every action that is not 100% perfect customer service necessarly mean racisim and profiling?

shooter429
April 16, 2008, 07:34 AM
I cannot understand why anybody would bite. Cummon, it does not pass the sniff test.

Shooter429

Charlie Oldphart
April 16, 2008, 09:00 AM
Well, it seems that this thread has about run it's course. Before it ends, I'd like to put forth a couple of thoughts.

I am the most biased white guy that you can imagine. Listen up. I said biased, not prejudiced!

I'm thinking back some 57 years to a place somewhere north of the 38th parallel, (you could look it up), when a fellow next to me saved my skinny white butt from being run through with a terrible bayonet and certain death. Three or four slugs from a .45 cal "grease gun" at 20 yards is the reason that I am alive and here today.

It didn't make any difference that the finger on the trigger of that grease gun was black. Thats right.

They say that there are no athiests in foxholes, and I say there are no raciests either!

Gawd, how he used to chew my butt. I can hear hime now, "Damn you Charlie, what the hell are you trying to do? Get us all killed? I brought 12 guys in here and I'm going to bring 12 guys out. Except you, maybe I'll leave you behind! I believed him, too. We didn't pay much attention to the officers, but when Sarge headed our way there was going to be hell to pay. Sarge had seen combat in World War II and knew what he was talking about.

Sadly, Sarge did not bring 12 men back. A shell from a T-34 tank wiped out his position along with four other squad members. That day red blood flowed from a black man in order that the rest of us could piss and moan about a perceived slight that doesn't amount to a pinch of sour owl shlt.

Use common sense and grow up already!

The tears are beginning to flow. I can't write anymore. Goodbye, Sarge.

Charlie

Missashot
April 16, 2008, 09:23 AM
Pretty much everything that could be said has been said on here already. But I thought I would toss out my $.02 anyway.
To answer the original question. Yes discrimination is everywhere. Not just gun owners and not just racial discrimination. (Although gun owners as a whole and especially on THR seem to be a great lot of people.)
I have had to deal with discrimination of various forms. I'm a rather tall
(5'10") white woman in my late 30s who is handicapped. And I ride motorcycles and have lots of other outdoor interests/hobbies. You can just pick out whichever aspect you want and I can give you instances in which I have been discriminated against or had jokes that were in very poor taste made about me.
I'm sorry that you have had a couple of bad experiences in the gun related fields. I hope you can find good folks to deal with in the future. Just remember there are jerks everywhere and try to not let them get the best of you.
Charlie OldPhart:
I read your post and it was stirring. I would like to thank you for doing what most of us cannot. Also I'm so sorry for the loss of your Sarge. Time heals a lot but it only helps so much. He must have been a great guy for you to care so much after all these years. That speaks volumes for him and for you!

Calibre44
April 16, 2008, 11:08 AM
I believe most, if not all humans are racist to some degree or another; itís just painful to admit it. We arenít born with a prejudice/attitude, itís the influences throughout our lives that shape, build and distort it: parents, family, friends, media, colleagues, actual experiences etc all help to form our stereotypes of people.

These are expressed time and again on THR when referring to people from other countries or religions or even different US States. Some are meant to be humorous, and often are, but some are probably a true reflection of what the poster really feels i.e. a reflection of their prejudice.

The point is, having a prejudice isnít against the law and doesnít mean you are a bad person. The problem comes when you use your prejudice to treat someone unfairly. i.e. thatís when you discriminate and thatís when you can break the law and find yourself in a whole lot of trouble with some painful litigation filed against you. The law doesnít take ignorance of equal opportunities or diversity issues as an excuse. (discrimination is Ďprejudice in actioní)

Racism isnít just about colour, race, religion etc it even exists between different parts of the same country, or districts in a city or even between sports teams Ė basically itís everywhere to varying degrees.

As mature people we hopefully challenge our prejudices, open our minds and seek to dispel them. Sadly, all to often, we go around looking for re-enforcements of our prejudices and stereotypes of people and behave inappropriately towards them which often causes them to react accordingly leaving us with a Ďtold you soí attitude.

I donít know whether the OP was discriminated against or not, but am happy to take his word for it. It could also have been, as already mentioned, just crap customer service.

publiuss
April 16, 2008, 06:38 PM
Some people are just jerks. it aint about skin color. I was recently at a gun show in houston and Picked up a S&W number 3 from one of those wired tables. I noticed the guy at the table was telling everybody else, black and white, not to touch the guns and saw his sign not to handle merchandise. He didn't say anything to me. Most people on weekends are wearing t-shirts and jeans and I had on a golf shirt, khakis, and a Rolex with a nice haircut. Maybe he figured I had the money to buy something and the first thing I went for wasn't a Glock so I knew what I was doing. Who knows about these situations.

eatont9999
April 16, 2008, 06:53 PM
I have never been in a racial situation in a gun shop. Other places, YES. I do get watched a lot when I browse the inventory. I am short, skinny, white and look like I am 16 years old. People probably think I am a rich white boy from suburbia, but they are quite wrong. Other than that, I generally get good service. There is always that idiot you just want to slap across the counter, but they are just idiots. Better to just pity them because when they go home, to mom's house, they will still have to wash the dishes and make the bed.

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