[Drjones]

I keep hearing this phrase tossed around and at am a loss...

:confused:

[ahenry]

Useless

[dinosaur]

:uhoh: Basically.

[willyjixx]

that would be the last thing in my possesion leading to a full scale retreat

[Drjones]

You guys don't get the point I'm trying to make:




RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED


Yet I still hear people talking of "unloaded guns."

[Ed Brunner]

That isn't fair. You have attacked one of the precepts.
Literally speaking, an unloaded gun is one devoid of ammunition, but figuratively, to some, it doesn't exist.

[Standing Wolf]

I treat all guns as though they were loaded at all times. I doubt there's such a thing as too safe.

[Skunkabilly]

Guns can be verified as unloaded (temprorarily) with all ammunition secured in a locked container in another room.

While all guns will be treated as if loaded, how the heck can you clean or dryfire a gun that is unloaded but treated as if loaded?

[Drjones]

While all guns will be treated as if loaded, how the heck can you clean or dryfire a gun that is unloaded but treated as if loaded?

This is not a flame to anyone, nor am I trying to tell anyone what to do, but it seems to me as if a lot of accidents seem to happen with "unloaded" guns while dry-firing.

I think you hit the crucial part of it; temporarily unloaded.

I don't think a firearm poses that much of a danger during cleaning as it is largely disassembled, and you can keep an eye on the chamber constantly.

[Skunkabilly]

How about dryfiring with the barrel out?

[ahenry]

Not necessarily, but funny none the less. However, an unloaded gun is good when handing it to someone, or dry firing it, or when getting ready to clean it.
My personal opinion, as well as the way I prefer to operate, is with only loaded firearms; hence my view that an unloaded firearm is useless (with the one caveat of an unloaded gun while cleaning).

[Spackler]

"Rule I" is actually pretty stupid, in my opinion. It's worded like a statement of fact, and of course it simply can't be true. In point of fact, all guns are not always loaded. Most of my guns are not loaded right now.

I believe that "All guns should be treated as if they are loaded". I check the action each and every time I pick up a firearm. I don't assume that it's loaded or empty.

An unloaded gun is not loaded. A loaded gun is loaded. All guns should be treated as if they are loaded.

[Drjones]

How about dryfiring with the barrel out?

That is definitely a great added measure of safety, but of course all the rules still very much apply.

Can most guns do this?? :confused:

[Hkmp5sd]

I live by the rule that every gun I own is loaded. Since almost every accidental shooting reported in the news is followed by the quote, "I thought the gun was empty," the only safe way to have guns is "loaded".

Obviously, for training and (some) cleaning, the gun will be used in violation of the 4 rules (for example, having the pull the trigger on a Glock before field stripping it). This is the single exemption and the gun is only "unloaded" while in actual use during training or cleaning. If you set the gun down and go answer the phone, it automatically reverts to being "loaded".

[Drjones]

Ditto HkMp5 180%.

[Feanaro]

You treat all firearms as loaded (unless they are in small pieces) but there is such a thing as an unloaded firearm. I happen to be sitting next to one. I can verify this because the magazine in removed, the bolt is open, the barrel has been checked and there is no ammunition in this room.

The first rule, taken in literal form, is a lie. There were, are and will be unloaded firearms. However, the idea is that you treat all firearms as if they were ready to fire, thus avoiding doing something stupid or dangerous.

[Cosmoline]

When I stick my eye up to the barrel to examine the crown, it's with an UNLOADED firearm.

If all guns really were always loaded, you'd never be able to look in the barrel.:D

[zahc]

I don't like the wording on rule 1 either. I treat unloaded guns differently than loaded guns. I have no problem looking down the barrel of an unloaded gun. I have no problem with the muzzle of an unloaded gun flashing my sister while It's being worked on.

Rule 1: NEVER assume guns are unloaded.

What HKp5whatever (sorry:p )said about guns reverting to loaded after leaving the room.

Rule one: treat all guns as if they were loaded unless you know they are not.

If the current wording of rule one was really followed gun shops and ranges and shooting could not exist.

[Autolite]

I strongly dislike the wording of this rule also. The implied directive is to treat all guns as if they are loaded, until you verify that it isn't. The object, of course, is that gun handling becomes second nature and you never will point it in any dangerous direction when it is in fact loaded. The literal wording of the rule is ridiculous. You could argue that it encourages hoplophobes of being terrified to even touch a firearm after it has been shown to be empty. As if an imaginary round is going to suddenly manifest itself in the chamber and burst out with murderous intent ...

[Erik]

"What is an "unloaded" gun?"

A gun which you have visually and manually confirmed to, in fact, be unloaded.

[Mike Irwin]

I treat all firearms as if they are loaded at all times, even if I KNOW, through my own inspection, that there are no cartridges in it.

That means I don't point it at my dogs, my friends, myself, etc. I observe the rule of muzzle awareness.

That doesn't mean, however, that I don't dry fire, practice drawing, etc. I do these things AFTER I have ensured, through my own inspection, that the gun has no cartridges in it.

A lot is said about the 4 basic rules of gun safety.

I have one that encapsulates them, which I call my rule No. 1. Don't be a frigging moron when handling a firearm. Think about what you're doing.

[only1asterisk]

I used to disagree with the wording of rule #1, I don't anymore. The honest truth is that I was present when the most responsible person I know "cleared" a old, damaged Browing shotgun. What happened next is unclear, but the 1.5" hole in the wall was plain to see.

Rule #1 is written in that manner for a reason.



David

[Kaylee]

The one that's in pieces on the table in front of you, silly. :)


-K

[JSolie]

Couple of thoughts....

1) I always treat every gun as loaded, with the exception being when cleaning is done. Before commencement of cleaning, the gun is checked yet again to verify that there are no cartridges in (or around) it.

2) Quoth the Skunk: How about dryfiring with the barrel out?
Um, what about a revolver? :D

3) I have heard of "unloading" as pertaining to selling something. So, and unloaded gun could be one you just sold to your buddy :rolleyes:

-- John

[mattd]

I keep my gun on a rack over my bed with a magazine in the gun and the bolt open with no bullet in the chamber. I think this would be called unloaded.

[Moparmike]

I concur with Erik. I had this debate with a couple of friends of mine, and we were using similar arguments like those shown here in this thread. A gun is unloaded when I have verified it and it is STILL in my hands. Similarly, I only look down the barrel of my Mauser with the bolt in my hand. If the firing pin is in my hand 24 inches from the nearest bullet (which is in the buttcuff incedentally) then I consider it to be unloaded.

[Stoker]

A British military perspective:

A semi-automatic weapon is 'loaded' when there is a magazine in the magazine well. It is 'ready' when the action is cocked and there is a round in the chamber.

When a weapon has been inspected by a range officer and he or she is satisfied that it contains neither magazine nor cartridge it is 'clear'

British civilian target shooting practice with rifles not actually in use on the firing point of a range is to remove the bolt or insert a flag into the breech to show that the weapon is not loaded. I don't know what the deer stalkers do.

We don't have any revolvers.

As for the four rules, I suggest that three of them need to be understood and interpreted sensibly, as threads on this forum are starting to acknowledge.

All guns are not always loaded, but a gun should be treated as such by each individual until he or she has established to his or her satisfaction that it is 'clear'.

The muzzle of a gun has to point in some direction or other. It is only sensible to point it in the safest possible direction.

Finger off the trigger until sights are on target is a good one.

Be sure of your target and what is behind it is a counsel of perfection to anyone not shooting on a properly built, maintained and operated target range, as is clear from a consideration of proper rules for range construction and use and, in particular, of the geometry relating to the design of range danger areas.

[chevrofreak]

While talking to my mom a while ago, she honestly believed that an unloaded gun could kill you.





maybe if someone beats you to death with it

[MicroBalrog]

An unloaded gun is one where the barrel is detached and held separately from the rest of the gun.

[Drjones]

While talking to my mom a while ago, she honestly believed that an unloaded gun could kill you.

Your mom is right.

The vast majority of shooting accidents occur with guns that were falsely assumed to be "unloaded."

[foghornl]

What is an 'unloaded gun' ? ? ?

A paperweight, a throwing weapon, a club, etc

[Aleko]

What is an unloaded gun??? It's Springfield Armory Loaded model that you just sold. ;)

[veloce851]

Geesh :rolleyes:
How hard is it to understand, that to state that you ALWAYS treat ALL guns as IF they were loaded.

It didn't sound confusing to me..
What I read from Rule One is that no matter what you treat any and all guns loaded or unloaded in reality as LOADED.. this is to establish a learned behavior.

If in your handling of any and all firearms you are accustom to treating them as "hot" or loaded with a round in the barrel. Then you are going to ingrain that behavior as though it were instinct. If its instictual then you are very unlikely to ever have an "accident"

Even when I'm cleaning my guns as silly as it may sound.. I ensure that the barrel is pointed in a direction that would not harm anyone and that the backdrop is safe.
You may say I'm crazy or stupid for treating an obvious piece of metal pipe as a "hot" weapon. But diligent practice is how I assert my brain. I can guarentee that you will never read a newspaper article about me "accidently" firing an "unloaded" weapon.

As to the quote from Black Hawk Down.. That's typical hollywood.. to highlight a SpecOps "badass" as the type to disregard all common sense and practical gun knowledge. Not to mention the blatant disregard for a CO's orders. I seriously doubt that is a true example of the majority of our finest soldiers.
I challenge anyone to poll 100 Spec Ops men and see if you even get 1% of them that agree with hollywierds example of their profession.
JMHO

[Waitone]

My mindset is a gun is unloaded only when it is in a pile of parts on my bench. That is unloaded. Any other time I act like it is loaded.

Dryfire? Never point it at anyone or anythink I intend to destroy.

Look down the barrel? Only when I pick the barrel up off the bench.

Someone hands a gun to me? I always clear it even if it was cleared prior to being handed to me. I teach my daughters to never trust a handgun that is handed to you. Always clear it. I teach my daughters if someone is insulted by your clearing a handgun after they've done the same, then they need to be insulted.

Make no assumptions when it comes to handgun safety.

[Cosmoline]

I get the impression a lot of the "purists" are really talking about one thing--semiautomatic pistols. These are responsible for most of the negligent discharges, so it makes a lot of sense to actually remove the barrel before looking down it.

For revolvers, bolt action rifles, and the like, it's a simple matter to remove the bolt and finger check the chamber, or to open the cylinder and make sure you've got all the chambers empty. It ain't so easy to remove the barrel with these firearms, nor is it necessary before looking down the barrel.

Or are you guys actually suggesting that in order to examine the crown on my 1891 Argie Mauser, I have to remove the barrel??! Outrageous. You need special equipment to do it, and with an old rifle you can end up destroying the barrel.

[atk]

It's been a bit since I read it, but I first saw the rule written down in Jeff Cooper's "Principles Of Personal Defense". The explaination I remember is that rewording it from "Every gun is always loaded" to "Treat every gun as though it were loaded" makes the statement much less concrete. It makes it as though it's okay to ignore the rule, because it's as though it's loaded, rather than just loaded.

By stating it in this way, the idea is that the rule retains its importance and is less likely to be violated.

There are some additional advantages I can think of, as well (Cooper may have mentioned them, I don't remember):

If someone points a gun at me (or another innocent person), I have the choice of assuming it's loaded, or unloaded. This choice determines my next action. If I assume it's loaded, I can respond as though it's loaded, as appropriate to the situation. If I was wrong, and it was unloaded, I have still survived the situation. If I assume it's unloaded, and respond as though it's unloaded, but I'm wrong... Well, that's one time I really don't want to be wrong. In the interests of survival, it's in my best interest to assume it's loaded.

If I'm holding a gun, I can assume it's loaded or it's unloaded. If I assume it's loaded, I'm definitely not going to go pointing it at my dog and pull the trigger. If I was wrong, then the dog is safe, either way. On the other hand, if I assume it's unloaded, then it would be "safe" to point and pull the trigger. If I was wrong this time, then there are a few messes to clean up. Again, in the interests of survival (both from the angry dog, the angry housemate(s) and the angry law), assuming it's loaded is in my best interest.

I'm sure you all knew that, but I think that spelling it all out makes it easier to understand why every gun is always loaded.

Now, we're all thinking, rational human beings (or, at least I hope we are :neener: ). We all realize that there must be some exceptions to this rule. And there are, but they're more of footnotes than bold, 60 point text. The exceptions are:

1. the firearm is rendered unable to fire. This may be because the action is open (signalled with a flag or a pencil, or whatever), or because the firearm is disassembled and the chamber is/are visible. The firearm remains safe until its condition changes, or its condition leaves the attention of the handler.

2. the firearm was just checked visually, and confirmed by sticking a finger in each chamber, and any ammunition that was loaded was carefully confirmed to be inert (i.e. snap caps). Again, the firearm remains safe until its condition changes, or its condition leaves the attention of the handler(this includes getting distracted by the television but not dropping the gun)

Of course, everyone already knows all that *grin*

[blue86buick]

I figured this to be in reference to laws that say a gun must be unloaded when transporting ('plane, car, non-ccw person, etc).

My definition? Same as others...one that I have confirmed to be unloaded, until it is out of my control.

That is the reason I keep my pistols in my safe with the magazine out, action locked open, and no rounds chambered. I check them again when I pick them up.

I need to get more dilligent about checking my rifles though. :uhoh:

[chevrofreak]

Your mom is right.

The vast majority of shooting accidents occur with guns that were falsely assumed to be "unloaded."



thats not what she meant

[Hkmp5sd]

If someone points a gun at me (or another innocent person), I have the choice of assuming it's loaded, or unloaded. This choice determines my next action. If I assume it's loaded

That is not really a wise way to handle having a gun pointed at you. If someone points a gun at you, it is loaded, regardless of whether there are any bullets in the gun or even if the gun turns out to be an airsoft replica. Deadly force is authorized if you, or a reasonable person placed in your situation, believes the guy is going to harm you. Someone pointing what appears to be a real handgun at you meets that criteria.

[greyhound]

An unloded gun is what the leftists here in Md want us to be able to have, as the next step towards confiscation. Its for the children, you know.

[atk]

Hkmp5sd,

Perhaps I was unclear, but I was trying to provide rationalle (sp?) for the "a gun is always loaded". I can treat the firearm as loaded or as unloaded. Based on my reasoning above, it's in my best interests to treat every firearm as loaded.

Sorry for the lack of clarity.

[Thumper]

If all guns are always loaded, how do you fieldstrip a glock????

[Hkmp5sd]

Sorry for the lack of clarity.

No sweat. My posts frequently lack clarity, intelligence, reality and proper grammar. :)

[Graystar]

I have a different way of looking at it. I always see guns as either safe to handle or ready to fire. Guns that have their actions open are safe to handle. Action closed = ready to fire. That's what I teach people. Cartridges have absolutely nothing to do with it.

[Drjones]

I like that definition, Graystar.

Thanks to HkMp5, I've got it down now:

A gun may be considered unloaded, safe, whatever, once you have verified for yourself that it is indeed devoid of cartriges. Of course you still handle it as if it were loaded; don't point it at anyone, etc.

The second it leaves your hands, even if it is still in your full view, it becomes loaded again.

[Orthonym]

A gun is, essentially, a tube open at one end and more or less closed at the other.

If it's open at both ends (cylinder swung out and empty on a revo., or slide back & daylight showing though barrel and mag well on autopistol) then it's not a gun until closed up again, just a piece of pipe.

When actually conditioning oneself in safe behavior I think it's propaedeutic to think as If Rule 1 were literally true.