Help Registering New SBR build on ATF form 1


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senorlinc
April 14, 2008, 09:55 AM
been doing alot of reading and have even been to tthe BATF site. I am having a SBR built for me. I know i need it registered w ATF on Form 1 and have a copy of the form but no instructions on how to fill it out properly. i am a sane, lawabiding citizen who has no reason to be denied other than filling out the form incorrectly. is there a thread out there already (said i was sane, not necessarily good witht he 2 searches i attempted) or someone out there that can point out areas on the form that i can screw up? my SBR will only be used to plink at the range, is that a legitmate use to the feds??

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Bubbles
April 14, 2008, 10:43 AM
been doing alot of reading and have even been to tthe BATF site. I am having a SBR built for me.

The manufacturer of the firearm will have to fill out the Form 1 before starting work on it. Once the manufacturer receives the approved Form 1 from the ATF the SBR can be built. The firearm can then be transferred to you on a Form 4.

I know i need it registered w ATF on Form 1 and have a copy of the form but no instructions on how to fill it out properly.

ATF Form 1 with instructions (http://www.robarm.com/ATF%20Form%201.pdf)

i am a sane, lawabiding citizen who has no reason to be denied other than filling out the form incorrectly. is there a thread out there already (said i was sane, not necessarily good witht he 2 searches i attempted) or someone out there that can point out areas on the form that i can screw up? my SBR will only be used to plink at the range, is that a legitmate use to the feds??

Some people put "collection", others "investment". "All Lawful Purposes" covers things nicely.

TexasRifleman
April 14, 2008, 11:08 AM
You do not actually have to prove a need, so just put down "collection" or whatever.

You won't be denied because you didn't give a 'good enough' reason.

Kharn
April 14, 2008, 11:27 AM
If you are having it built using a reciever you do not already own, the builder fills out the Form1 and then you fill out a Form4 to transfer it to your person.

If you already own the reciever, send in the Form1 and then you can temporarily transfer it to a shop to have them engrave your name, city and state along with cutting the barrel.

Kharn

Henry Bowman
April 14, 2008, 12:48 PM
If you already own the reciever, send in the Form1 and then you can temporarily transfer it to a shop to have them engrave your name, city and state along with cutting the barrel.How does that "temporary transfer" work? For example, say I have been approved to "build" an SBR on an AR-15 frame. The "buidling" occurs when I attach the <16" upper. If I have it engraved before I assemble the upper, then is it correct that I have not yet "built" the SBR and, thus, it is not yet an SBR? If so, then it would be much easer to give possession of it to someone else to engrave. Correct?

Kharn
April 14, 2008, 02:05 PM
IIRC, you use Form 5320.20 for a temporary out-of-state transfer to an FFL. The engraving can occur after you have the Form1 in hand, but it's best to do the engraving first (in case the shop loses the reciever or they botch the job and ruin your reciever, the $200 tax is not refundable).

The weapon is an SBR as soon as you recieve the approved form with the cancelled stamp, after which time you must complete the 5320.20.

Sending the weapon out for engraving after submitting the Form1 but before you recieve it back from the ATF is not recommended, IIRC.

Kharn

Henry Bowman
April 14, 2008, 05:05 PM
So you are suggesting doing the engraving before sending in the Form 1?

TexasRifleman
April 14, 2008, 06:05 PM
So you are suggesting doing the engraving before sending in the Form 1?

That's what I ALWAYS do with mine.

They screw it up or lose the receiver you are out the $200.

There's no law against engraving your name and town on a title 1 firearm so there's no harm done even if you change your mind about the SBR.

senorlinc
April 14, 2008, 06:14 PM
i read about the necessity of the engraving and will have that done. i am ordering the receiver separately from the other parts which i already own, the receiver will be delivered to me via my FFL. was going to send parts kit and receiver to builder...should i have the builder just order/provide the receiver for me, sounds alot easier, then the builder could do form 1 for new build and transfer to me via ffl/sot class III dealer on form 4???????? so corn-fused...

Kharn
April 14, 2008, 06:16 PM
Henry Bowman:
Correct, engrave before sending in the paperwork. Both because you need to do a 5320.20 to send an NFA weapon anywhere and the tax being nonrefundable if your reciever suffers any unfortunate incidents.

Kharn

TexasRifleman
April 14, 2008, 06:21 PM
should i have the builder just order/provide the receiver for me, sounds alot easier, then the builder could do form 1 for new build and transfer to me via ffl/sot class III dealer on form 4???????? so corn-fused...

Well what exactly are you building? If it's an AR just do it yourself.

senorlinc
April 14, 2008, 09:35 PM
ah, i did for get to mention this...its an aks-74u...pretty much a short barrel version of an ak47...i have neither the tools or the know how to rivet a receiver and fit the barrel to it etc....i have a builder in mind, he said he could probably help decipher the paperwork but this is a pretty big deal so i want to make sure my behind is covered and all i's dotted/t's crossed properly

DoubleTapDrew
April 14, 2008, 09:40 PM
With the engraving, what happens if you move, or you sell it to someone else? Does it need to be changed or leave it the way it is (wrong town, or wrong name/town if you sold it in the examples above)?

Kharn
April 14, 2008, 10:06 PM
senorlinc:
Buy the stripped reciever from your dealer, fill out the Form1, wait for its return and then send it off to a highly regarded AK smith for the barrel and engraving. If you have him do the work on a reciever he has in stock, you'll have to wait even longer for it to Form4 from the builder to your FFL and then another Form4 from your FFL to you (assuming the builder does not reside in your state).

DoubleTapDrew:
The engraving will always reflect the name, city and state listed on the original Form1 and shall never be altered. Future Form4s will list the original name, city and state as the manufacturer's info in the appropriate blocks.

Kharn

wdlsguy
April 15, 2008, 03:22 PM
The manufacturer of the firearm will have to fill out the Form 1 before starting work on it. Once the manufacturer receives the approved Form 1 from the ATF the SBR can be built.
A manufacturer (type 07 FFL / class 2 SOT) typically registers NFA firearms on a tax-free Form 2 (http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53202.pdf) after manufacturing the item.

wdlsguy
April 15, 2008, 03:32 PM
its an aks-74u...
I'm working on a Yugo Model 92 right now. I had the receiver engraved before sending in the Form 1's and associated paperwork. I'm waiting for the approved Form 1 to come back right now.

According to this thread (http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=17&t=240854) a 5320.20 isn't required if you are shipping your receiver and kit to a builder in another state.

Chipperman
April 16, 2008, 10:29 AM
With the engraving, what happens if you move, or you sell it to someone else? Does it need to be changed or leave it the way it is (wrong town, or wrong name/town if you sold it in the examples above)?


The engraving refers to who made the SBR, and does not necessarily have anything to do with who owns the gun now.

DoubleTapDrew
April 16, 2008, 10:21 PM
Ahhh, I see. It indicates the "manufacturer" of the SBR, not the owner.
So I take it if you had a barrel shortened <16" on a gun without interchangable uppers the 'smith/SOT that did it would engrave (or have engraved) their info?

TexasRifleman
April 16, 2008, 10:30 PM
So I take it if you had a barrel shortened <16" on a gun without interchangable uppers the 'smith/SOT that did it would engrave (or have engraved) their info?

If you filed a Form 1 then had a smith do the actual work YOU are still the manufacturer. The manufacturer is the one that is entering the thing in the NFA registry for the first time.

You are "making" an NFA weapon where none existed before. Even though it was a Title 1 firearm, it is a "new" NFA weapon.

jrfoxx
April 17, 2008, 12:18 AM
What a ridiculous pain all over some nonsense about a 12" bbl being magically more deadly than a 16" one, or a pistol with a 2" bbl and rifle stock attached being more deadly than the same gun with no stock. :banghead:
Makes PREFECT, logical sense I don't understand why so many people are confused and it all has to constantly get explained. It all makes perfect sense. :rolleyes:

Smellyamos
December 16, 2008, 08:17 PM
So to clarify, if I am building an AR-SBR from a stripped receiver. I am the manufacturer and I have to get my name and address engraved on the receiver and I list myself on the Form 1 and the Manufacturer?

Kharn
December 16, 2008, 08:24 PM
Smellyamos:
For the September 2007 version of the Form 1, block4A, list the name, city & state of the *original manufacturer* of the reciever as engraved on the lower (BFI, Windham ME, for example is how Bushmasters are marked).

A Form 1 is an application to 'make and register' an NFA firearm, normally using a non-NFA firearm as a base. If you used an '80% reciever' (one you completed yourself in a work shop), you would list yourself as the manufacturer.

Now that you've listed the original manufacturer on the form, you must also engrave the name, city and state of the *maker* on the reciever. This would be: John Doe, Nowheresville, PA (if doing it as an individual, or John Doe Trust, Nowheresville, PA if doing a trust)

Kharn

rfurtkamp
December 17, 2008, 01:31 AM
in case the shop loses the reciever or they botch the job and ruin your reciever, the $200 tax is not refundable

Untrue, and one of the online myths.

Read your Form 1's instructions:

4 Withdrawal of Application. The application may be withdrawn prior to approval by submission of a written request from the maker. The NFA Branch will arrange for a refund of any tax paid.
5 Cancellation of Approved Application. An approved application may be cancelled only if the firearms had not been made or modified. The maker must return the approved application with a written request for cancellation, citing the need and that the making of the firearm did not take place.


Since the receiver/engraving was botched, and the weapon not made or modified into a NFA item - the weapon was not made. Get your $$$ back, file another F1.

Kharn
December 17, 2008, 08:01 AM
rfurtkamp:
True, you can apply for it to be refunded but it takes several months to get the cash back and then several months to go through the process again with a different lower. Also people tend to slap an SBR upper on their lower as soon as the stamp arrives and then get it engraved at a later date, at which point you do not qualify for a refund.

Kharn

rfurtkamp
December 17, 2008, 10:02 AM
True, you can apply for it to be refunded but it takes several months to get the cash back and then several months to go through the process again with a different lower.

Still a world of difference from 'not refundable', which is what I heard time and time again on various boards over the years.

Medic UP
April 18, 2009, 09:57 PM
I'm wanting to 'classify' my current AR15 rifle lower as an SBR lower so I can alternatively attach my AR pistol's 10.5" barrel on the lower thus making it an SBR. I too am having difficulty with the Form 1 instructions as they are labeled instructions but they're only definitions. There's no clarification on HOW to complete each block appropriately. Any advice on how to do this smoothly would be most appreciated. Reading this thread is the first time I was aware of the engraving component. To be sure I understand, the rifle lower is manufactured by DPMS. I will have my name and city/state engraved as the 'maker' of the new SBR.... right?

Thanks
WW

Kharn
April 18, 2009, 10:48 PM
AR15.com thread on how to fill out a Form 1 (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=17&t=257740)
Yes, you must engrave your name, city and state on the lower.

Kharn

Medic UP
April 19, 2009, 01:29 PM
Anyone here ever declare multiple calibers or a 'range' for the barrel and weapon lengths on a Form 1 to enable multiple SBR uppers to be used on the same lower? Anyone know if this is possible?

Thanks
WW

Kharn
April 19, 2009, 01:31 PM
That used to be possible, now you must give one number for each as their database requires a valid numerical answer (11.5" is ok, while 7-14.5" is not).

Kharn

TexasRifleman
April 19, 2009, 02:29 PM
Anyone here ever declare multiple calibers or a 'range' for the barrel and weapon lengths on a Form 1 to enable multiple SBR uppers to be used on the same lower? Anyone know if this is possible?


Kharn is right. It used to be possible, I have one done that way.

I tried another a few years later and it was rejected for that reason so there's been a change somewhere along the way.

The interesting question to me is what happens if you do a Form 1 for a .223 AR with an 11.5 inch barrel, then you buy a 9mm 8 inch upper for it.

Are you in violation?

My gut says no because once you have the tax stamp you have an NFA firearm and can do as you please with it.

But it still troubles me sometimes that you are "off the paper" with something like that. Some wack pack prosecutor decides to go off on you, who knows.

Kharn
April 19, 2009, 02:31 PM
As long as you have the parts at home to quickly put the rifle into the configuration listed on your form, you are in the clear. It becomes a problem when you sell those parts and you should send a letter to the ATF advising them of the new configuration.

Or you can use the 'additional description' block on the form to squeeze in a few other barrel/caliber choices.

Kharn

TexasRifleman
April 19, 2009, 02:33 PM
Interesting. I've wondered about that but haven't put much thought into it since the SBR I tend to change around has "various" and "under 16 inches" listed for the caliber and length.

Is there a form for notifying ATF of a modification I wonder?

Medic UP
April 19, 2009, 02:34 PM
Good info. I'd love to hear others experience with "going off the paper" as you described.

Also, I'm preparing to form a corporation to become an umbrella for a couple other businesses. If I file the Form 1 under the corporation, do I still need the prints and LE signatures?

WW

TexasRifleman
April 19, 2009, 02:35 PM
If I file the Form 1 under the corporation, do I still need the prints and LE signatures?

Nope. Be sure to put relatives and anyone else that you want to shoot the thing in as officers of the corporation.

Much easier than individual stuff. Mine are all individual and it's a real pain.

Medic UP
April 19, 2009, 02:37 PM
Sounds like it would REALLY be worth my while to get the corporation stuff finalized before I submit this form and future forms. I'm also prepping my FFL stuff, the corporation will make that easier as well I suspect.

Thoughts?
WW

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