Some questions i asked of a few LEO friends on a local board(AL)


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pernicus
April 14, 2008, 01:45 PM
post i made regarding a Gun Law FAQ made on a local board(Alabama) by a few LEO's on the board since so many of the questions in the "ask the police" section were regarding gun laws--none of them are shelby county pd's,

http://www.alabamaracingscene.net/forum/showthread.php?p=617919#post617919
Where can I not carry my pistol if I have my license?
County, State, and Federal buildings. Also, you can not carry if you are joining in a demonstration or protest. Also, while not against the law, it is advisable not to carry while consuming alcohol.

what is considered a county/state/federal building besides court houses etc? and which part of the Alabama legal code provides the restrictions?

Quote:
Section 13A-11-72
Quote:

Certain persons forbidden to possess pistol.

(a) No person who has been convicted in this state or elsewhere of committing or attempting to commit a crime of violence shall own a pistol or have one in his or her possession or under his or her control.
(b) No person who is a drug addict or an habitual drunkard shall own a pistol or have one in his or her possession or under his or her control.
(c) Subject to the exceptions provided by Section 13A-11-74, no person shall knowingly with intent to do bodily harm carry or possess a deadly weapon on the premises of a public school.
(d) Possession of a deadly weapon with the intent to do bodily harm on the premises of a public school in violation of subsection (c) of this section is a Class C felony.
(e) Law enforcement officers are exempt from this section, and persons with pistol permits issued pursuant to Section 13A-11-75, are exempt from the provisions of subsection (c) of this section.
(f) The term "public school" as used in this section applies only to a school composed of grades K-12 and shall include a school bus used for grades K-12.
(g) The term "deadly weapon" as used in this section means a firearm or anything manifestly designed, made, or adapted for the purposes of inflicting death or serious physical injury, and such term includes, but is not limited to, a bazooka, hand grenade, missile, or explosive or incendiary device; a pistol, rifle, or shotgun; or a switch-blade knife, gravity knife, stiletto, sword, or dagger; or any club, baton, billy, black-jack, bludgeon, or metal knuckles.
(Acts 1936, Ex. Sess., No. 82, p. 51; Code 1940, T. 14, §174; Acts 1951, No. 784, p. 1378; Code 1975, §13-6-152; Acts 1994, 1st Ex. Sess., No. 94-817, §1.)
according to (e) ccw holders are able to carry on public schools, but what does that say or not say about public universities? IE auburn/uab/samford etc

and what about individual county jurisdictions http://www.shelbyso.com/permits.html
Quote:
WARNING
Your pistol permit does not authorize you to carry a pistol while consuming alcohol or drugs.
is that something that is specific to Shelby county as a qualified/restricted license? Jefferson county makes no mention of it, and the only mention i can find in the Alabama legal code is that of a habitual drunkard or someone addicted to drugs

edit: just called the shelby count sheriff office...apparently she directed me to 13a-11-72 saying it was state law...hmm
then went on to say that it was written on the license, which makes it not state law but a qualified license instead even though she told me the license also said "Unrestricted" on it

same shelby county office also has posted
Quote:
Your pistol permit does not authorize you to carry a pistol at any public gathering such as sporting events, political events, parades, and etc. (Title 13A-11-59)
however this code makes no mention of any sporting events

Quote:
13a-11-59
(a) For the purposes of this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings respectively ascribed to them in this subsection, except in those instances where the context clearly indicates a different meaning:
(1) DEMONSTRATION. Demonstrating, picketing, speechmaking or marching, holding of vigils and all other like forms of conduct which involve the communication or expression of views or grievances engaged in by one or more persons, the conduct of which has the effect, intent or propensity to draw a crowd or onlookers. Such term shall not include casual use of property by visitors or tourists which does not have an intent or propensity to attract a crowd or onlookers.
(2) FIREARM. Any pistol, rifle, shotgun or firearm of any kind, whether loaded or not.
(3) LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER. Any duly appointed and acting federal, state, county or municipal law enforcement officer, peace officer or investigating officer, or any military or militia personnel called out or directed by constituted authority to keep the law and order, and any park ranger while acting as such on the grounds of a public park and who is on regular duty and present to actively police and control the demonstration, and who is assigned this duty by his department or agency. Such term does not include a peace officer on strike or a peace officer not on duty.
(4) PUBLIC PLACE. Any place to which the general public has access and a right to resort for business, entertainment or other lawful purpose, but does not necessarily mean a place devoted solely to the uses of the public. Such term shall include the front or immediate area or parking lot of any store, shop, restaurant, tavern, shopping center or other place of business. Such term shall also include any public building, the grounds of any public building, or within the curtilage of any public building, or in any public parking lot, public street, right-of-way, sidewalk right-of-way, or within any public park or other public grounds.
(b) It shall be unlawful for any person, other than a law enforcement officer, to have in his or her possession or on his or her person or in any vehicle any firearm while participating in or attending any demonstration being held at a public place.
(c) It shall be unlawful for any person, other than a law enforcement officer as defined in subsection (a) of this section, to have in his or her possession or about his or her person or in any vehicle at a point within 1,000 feet of a demonstration at a public place, any firearm after having first been advised by a law enforcement officer that a demonstration was taking place at a public place and after having been ordered by such officer to remove himself or herself from the prescribed area until such time as he or she no longer was in possession of any firearm. This subsection shall not apply to any person in possession of or having on his or her person any firearm within a private dwelling or other private building or structure.
(d) Any person violating any of the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished as provided by law. (Acts 1979, No. 79-455, p. 743; Code 1975, §13-6-131.)
all it mentions is public demonstrations such as political events, no mention of sporting events in any way shape or form is made...this shat is confusing how people make up their own laws

just curious what the opinion of thr members was regarding some of the psuedo laws that other counties have made up(shelby...)

and the answers to some of the questions posed

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XDKingslayer
April 14, 2008, 03:10 PM
Are you sure these are even accurate?

Remember, the worst person to ask concerning gun laws is LEO. The 2nd worse are gun owners.

Usually, neither are right. You get to see examples of this each and every day here.

pernicus
April 14, 2008, 03:44 PM
the legal code excerpts are direct quotes i got from http://alisondb.legislature.state.al.us/acas/ACASLoginFire.asp

pernicus
April 14, 2008, 03:46 PM
Are you sure these are even accurate?

Remember, the worst person to ask concerning gun laws is LEO. The 2nd worse are gun owners.

Usually, neither are right. You get to see examples of this each and every day here.

considering SteveO is a LEO that is very strongly pro-2nd i trust that he is more accurate and more concerned with accuracy than your average beat cop

Old Dog
April 14, 2008, 03:55 PM
Remember, the worst person to ask concerning gun laws is LEO.
Sigh. And the beat goes on ...

XDKingslayer
April 14, 2008, 04:25 PM
Sigh. And the beat goes on ...

Sorry, but the beat is true...

It's not anti-cop rhetoric, it's simply the truth. We can't expect them to understand all of the laws and when it comes to firearms they'll naturally err on the side of caution, not the law.

So many cops in this area still think the "three step rule" is the law.

Eightball
April 14, 2008, 04:35 PM
I'm curious.....what would a LEO do if you were at a sporting event with a copy of the pertinent law folded up with you, and if he tried to do anything about the fact that you were carrying, showed him the law and made similar arguments as are in the end of the quote in the first post?

divemedic
April 14, 2008, 04:39 PM
True. I have heard many cops give wrong answers. I was detained once for 2 hours by a cop for open carry when I lived in VA Beach. He told me "This isn't the wild west. It HAS to be illegal." As I sat in his patrol car while he looked through a statute book.

Think about it- police academy 6 months (or less) law school- 3 years. Lawyers will tell you they don't know all the laws. Why should cops.

REB
April 14, 2008, 04:56 PM
what is considered a county/state/federal building besides court houses etc? and which part of the Alabama legal code provides the restrictions?

There is nothing in the Alabama code concerning these buildings but the sheriff can put his own restrictions on the license and that is the typical wording I have seen on most licenses. This is probably where this answer came from
according to (e) ccw holders are able to carry on public schools, but what does that say or not say about public universities? IE auburn/uab/samford etc

There are no specific laws about carrying on universities but I think most universities have there own rules prohibiting carrying. There is nothing they can do legally as far as I can tell but I guess they can kick you out if your a student.
just called the shelby count sheriff office...apparently she directed me to 13a-11-72 saying it was state law...hmm
then went on to say that it was written on the license, which makes it not state law but a qualified license instead even though she told me the license also said "Unrestricted" on it

She doesn't know what she is talking about because there is no such state law. It seems to me they don't really know what they are doing in shelby county. They can issue a "qualified" license that puts restrictions on when and where you can carry but putting restrictions on the license and calling it unrestricted shows a total lack of understanding the laws in Alabama. They also seem to be implying that 13a-11-72 has more restrictions than it actually does.

You should print out a copy of 13a-11-50 through 85 and go ask them where they read some of the things they are stating on there web site is written in the law, they simply do not exist.

The statement "The Sheriff of Shelby County has the authority to issue, deny, and/or revoke a pistol permit at his discretion." is not entirely true either, see AG opinion 2000-163 which states "The use of “may” in the statute allows a sheriff not to issue a pistol permit to a person not qualified to carry a pistol, or to use his sound judgment to refuse to issue a permit to a person if there are circumstances causing the sheriff to believe reasonably that the person should not possess or own a pistol. The sheriff may not arbitrarily refuse to issue a permit without a sound reason"

REB
April 14, 2008, 08:48 PM
I had some extra time today and did a little research on this for a different thread. Still not sure on the County and State buildings but from what I found today it could be buried in there somewhere.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4402872&postcount=28

isp2605
April 14, 2008, 10:27 PM
Think about it- police academy 6 months (or less) law school- 3 years. Lawyers will tell you they don't know all the laws. Why should cops.
And the average Joe Citizen? - Absolutely none and most likely doesn't even know where to look.

REB
April 14, 2008, 10:41 PM
I agree it is almost impossible to know exactly what every law is concerning CC in one state and I constantly travel all over the country.

R127
April 14, 2008, 11:40 PM
Think about it- police academy 6 months (or less) law school- 3 years. Lawyers will tell you they don't know all the laws. Why should cops.

Because it is their job to enforce law. You can't enforce it if you don't even know what it is.

And the average Joe Citizen? - Absolutely none and most likely doesn't even know where to look.

Agreed, the lawbooks have become so bloated that everybody's guilty of something and nobody can know all the laws if they even tried. The only sensible course of action is to cut the fat. That would make things more manageable for the law enforcement officers who are expected to enforce the law and all citizens who are expected to obey it.

langenc
April 16, 2008, 08:48 PM
You have encountered the "court house gang." They are the ones that quote what they would like/what they think the law should be.

OR "that is the way we do it here."

Tinker
April 18, 2008, 02:59 AM
This subject is interesting to me because I've had the same exact questions about CC licences in Alabama.

The first one I was issued was back in the 80's in Talladega Co. It stated that you could not carry concealled in a courthouse or airport. Those were the only "public building" restrictions. That Co. issued "Restricted" licences. Restricted meaning that the licence allowed the holder to carry only one certain pistol with that licence. If memory serves, I had to give the sheriff the serial # of that particular pistol.

I later moved to St. Clair Co. That Sheriff issues "Unresticted" licences. Or in other words you can carry any of your handguns with that licence. When I first got that Sheriff's licence it's "public building" restriction was just like Talladega's. Carry prohibition was in courthouses or airports only. A few years later I was reading the new rules on the licence that St. Clair issues and it now restricts carry in ANY pulbic building, Federal, State or local.

The last time I renewed, I asked the lady at the desk about this.

"Does this mean that I would not be able to carry my pistol if I vacationed in a state operated park, like a chalet on Cheaha or a cabin in Tannehill? Or if a person was unfortunate enough to have to live in government project housing, would they be declined a licence or if they were licenced wouldn't they be breaking the law if they kept a pistol at home?"

She didn't really have a solid answer. She just said (puzzled look): "Well, I don't think that would be a problem."

I've read about discrepencies (fees/restrictions) in licences between the different counties here in Alabama. Seems like the Sheriff's have a lot of leeway in composing them. I wondered if this is legal or do they just write them the way they want and charge what they want.

Grizzly Adams
April 18, 2008, 01:59 PM
What makes it even worse in Alabama is that some LEO will enforce what is printed on the CWL for their county not what is on your license!

Jim K
April 18, 2008, 02:09 PM
Not the only time cops have made up laws, they do it all the time. After all, what cop is going to admit that he doesn't know something?

The (then) Alexandria (VA) police chief once told a friend of mine, in my hearing, that it was illegal in Virginia to own a knife. So you can easily identify Virginians - they are the ones with teeth worn down from gnawing their food.

Jim

308win
April 18, 2008, 02:15 PM
The relevent statutes may not be the only governing law; case law may come into play as well and I for one have no idea where to research case law.

REB
April 18, 2008, 04:23 PM
Not only do the relevant statutes in the Code of Alabama law and case law come into play but there is also the Administrative code of Alabama. This code is authorized by the Alabama legislative and all but impossible to search through.

For example take carry in a state park. Alabama code Section 9-2-9 gives the park service authority to make all the rules and regulations for operating state parks and makes violating any of those rules a misdemeanor offense. Then Alabama Administrative code, which is approved by the legislature, 220-5-.08 states "It shall be unlawful for any person other than a duly authorized law enforcement officer to possess or carry into any State Park any form of firearm without written permission of the manager in charge of the State Park visited".

Wheeler44
April 19, 2008, 02:31 AM
A friend recently contacted me. It seems his son who is away at college "purchased an AR-15. He asked me what he needed to do to bring it back home..And the average Joe Citizen? - Absolutely none and most likely doesn't even know where to look.
So i did a search here on The High Road and found out about interstate firearms transfers. (I already knew a little from reading here). I called the son told him what I found out and told him to look here.

Instead he called the police in Portland OR and the Sheriff in Multnomah County OR and the police in Wilsonville OR. The y all told him to "just bring it on back". I encouraged him to visit the BATFE website or call them. Instead he replied " the cops said that I was OK so I'm good".

I wished him the best.

Wheeler44

divemedic
April 19, 2008, 06:24 AM
Actually, a college student is in a funny spot. Considered a resident of both states (like a military member stations away from home) he can do exactly that, as long as his ownership of that particular weapon is legal in both states.

isp2605
April 19, 2008, 09:01 AM
Instead he called the police in Portland OR and the Sheriff in Multnomah County OR and the police in Wilsonville OR. The y all told him to "just bring it on back". I encouraged him to visit the BATFE website or call them. Instead he replied " the cops said that I was OK so I'm good".
divemedic is correct, and as long as the laws in OR don't prevent ownership then the police in those towns told him correct info. There's nothing in federal law preventing the owner from transporting their firearms back home. Everyday thousands of people move to new residences in other states and legally transport their firearms when they move. It's no big deal as long as they comply with the local laws.

revjen45
April 19, 2008, 01:19 PM
"And the average Joe Citizen? - Absolutely none and most likely doesn't even know where to look."
Yup, but for Joe Peon ignorance of the law is no excuse, and any attempt to find out is inculpatory.

isp2605
April 19, 2008, 04:39 PM
Every statute for every state is on the internet. They aren't a secret. http://www.loc.gov/law/help/guide/states.html All it takes is for a person to do some digging for their state. But people don't want to do that. Too much work. They'd rather ask someone who they don't know or take the word of some range rat who never read a statute in his life either.

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