Wanna see Open Carry accepted by the majority?


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TexasSkyhawk
April 14, 2008, 02:07 PM
Been reading the Wal-Mart and other threads on Open Carry.

For the record, I'm all for Open-Carry. What I'm not for is the belligerant "kiss my ass and stick it in your face" attitudes of some who believe the world revolves around them.

So, wanna make your statement (have your cake) and prove your point at the same time (eat it too)?

Organize. Organize for at least one day.

Organize and participate in National Open Carry Day.

It'll take some work, but at the end of the day, it'll be worth it.

Each state rifle or gun association needs to spearhead it. Basically, each state association has their individual chapters or regions or districts put out the word that on "such and such date," we encourage all law-abiding and able gun owners to Open Carry wherever they go no tha tday and wherever legal and/are allowed.

The following are general thoughts:

I would strongly suggest that the state association respective to each state, find and make available the exact state statute(s) regarding Open Carry. I would also strongly suggest that any and each gun owner who participates in National Open Carry Day have a printed copy of it on them.

(Yeah yeah. You can bore me with your "rights" and "if it's not written down as being illegal, then it IS legal and I don't need no stinking piece of paper. Remember: Think ATTITUDE. You're trying to make some POSITIVE points and project a POSITIVE image in order to garner POSITIVE results.)

If your employer prohibits weapons at your place of work, I (just me personally) would probably call in sick on National Open Carry Day. If every gun-owner did that, employers might figure out how many of their good, quality, trustworthy employees are gun owners . . .

Since there will be zilch way to keep this completely under wraps, there will be businesses in a panic to make "No Guns Allowed" signs. Fine. Not only do you not shop/trade there, but make a note of any and all businesses you see with such signs.

Compile your lists and post them on every gun-forum, gun-site, pro-2A website you can find. It is a business owner's inheritent right to refuse service for any reason. It is my right to refuse to do business with such people for any reason. Between one fourth and one fifth of this country owns guns. I don't know of any business in today's climate and economy that could survive a permanent lost of between 20% and 25% of their business.

Do not look to play "cops" or "soldiers" or any other such nonsense on National Open Carry Day. You're citizens with a Constitutional Right to arm yourselves--not wannabe cops or soldiers looking to save the day simply because you're packing.

Make every effort to be friendly and professional with anyone and everyone you encounter--especially law enforcement. The media will have a National Bowel Movement and be searching and digging for ANY gun-related incidents they can exploit. First place they always go is to the cops. Don't give the cops any reason to be anything but impressed with your conduct.

If this could happen on one collective day, it would be incredibly powerful. If not, it needs to happen on a state-wide basis.

It just takes a little organization, planning, leadership and commitment.

Too bad we can't do this in Texas.

Jeff

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SomeKid
April 14, 2008, 02:35 PM
Or, just OC every chance you get, like I do.

Had a guy ask me about it a few days ago.

"You a cop?" he asks. Nope, I respond.

"You a security guard?" he asks. While thinking whats it matter if I was? Nope, I respond.

"So why you carrying a gun?" He asks. "Because I want to" I say in a flat voice while staring him in the eye.

Thats all there is to it. Be free, do what you want, and don't cower in fear begging for the approval of your fellow man. This is the land of the free, not land of those who strive for approval.

kevindsingleton
April 14, 2008, 02:45 PM
I think Texas Skyhawk is onto something. One of the biggest problems that groups of citizens face in the US is being dis- or unorganized. If smokers would organize, there would be no "no smoking" ordinances making them second-class citizens. If parents would organize, we could reign in the NEA and take back our schools. If residents would organize, we could push gang-bangers into the oceans. And, if gun owners would organize, we could produce a positive image of RKBA, elect pro-2A legislators, and put an end to gun-grabbing and rights-usurping.

It's not a bad idea. I'm interested to see where it goes.

VARifleman
April 14, 2008, 02:51 PM
Good thread, should probably be in activism though.

JesseL
April 14, 2008, 03:32 PM
I may have a slightly warped view due to my locale, but as Arfin Greebly was saying in another thread; the ultimate goal is to make open carry unremarkable.

I don't think this is a battle we can win with big dramatic efforts. I see a need for guerrilla tactics here. Think of the old story of boiling a frog. We need to slowly infiltrate the public awareness, get people used to seeing people with guns before they ever consciously realize what's going on.

I don't see any need to make a big deal out of OC. I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and OC whenever I feel like it. I won't go out of my way to draw attention to myself. I'll just be one more average guy, going about his day, who happens to have a pistol on his hip - unremarkable.

On the other hand maybe I'm wrong. Big demonstrations and protests seem to have been effective for other civil rights movements, so maybe similar tactics will work for OC too?

WayneConrad
April 14, 2008, 04:55 PM
Neither of you are wrong. It's not an either-or thing.

TexasSkyhawk
April 14, 2008, 05:33 PM
I don't think this is a battle we can win with big dramatic efforts. I see a need for guerrilla tactics here. Think of the old story of boiling a frog. We need to slowly infiltrate the public awareness, get people used to seeing people with guns before they ever consciously realize what's going on.

Yes and no.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, I know a thing or to about guerilla warfare and tactics. When you're fighting for rights, guerilla tactics ain't the way to go.

If the blacks had tried that back in 50's and 60's, I doubt it would've gotten them too far. As it was, they had to work double-hard to counter the shenanigans of the idiot Black Panthers.

The Klan utilized guerilla tactics--anyone around here respect them? I sure as hell don't.

Also, ask any biologist or even any coon-ass from around my old parts . . . that frog will sure as hell jump out of the pot when it gets too warm. Why do you think the expression "he reached his boiling point" came from?

I don't see any need to make a big deal out of OC. I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and OC whenever I feel like it. I won't go out of my way to draw attention to myself. I'll just be one more average guy, going about his day, who happens to have a pistol on his hip - unremarkable.

No doubt, that is one way to make your case--especially given that you reside in a gun-friendly, OC-friendly state.

But what about your fellow gun-owners who aren't as fortunate as you?

A theme I used to write on quite often during my days of working with the NRA advertising/marketing team was an old Abe Lincoln line about united we stand, divided we fall.

That is even MORE true today than it was when I was working on the business during the Clinton debacle. Look at the momentum CCL got when state groups helped each other out by sharing information, sources, statistics, knowledge, experience, etc.

Individually, perhaps we could've gotten the same results--possibly even by the year 2030. But when you put the will of a large group of people together, combine it with the individual talents each person has, and an objective, you can and will get things done.

I would love to see a reciprocal Open-Carry statute among states.

Jeff

yokel
April 14, 2008, 06:05 PM
Alas, this is a political non-starter here in these parts.

It's not going to get any traction so long as MD remains a de facto single-party despotic state.

JesseL
April 14, 2008, 06:33 PM
When you're fighting for rights, guerilla tactics ain't the way to go.


I agree 100%.

I'm just thinking that for many of us, this isn't exactly a fight for rights. We've already got the statutory right to OC (though obviously those like yourself in Texas or Florida don't). What we don't all have is the social acceptance.

Gaining social acceptance seems to me to be fundamentally different than winning legal rights. Reading back over the plan you outlined in the opening post, I don't see anything in it I disagree with. I guess all I'd add is that we should organize open carry days as often as possible (bi-monthly?).

Count me in for whatever happens.

6_gunner
April 14, 2008, 07:15 PM
Well, I think TexasSkyhawk and JesseL both have good points.

Anyone so inclined should open carry in order to acclimate the public to the presence of guns. However, I also think that a national open carry day would send a powerful message to anti-gun businesses and also show people how many respectable and law-abiding citizens carry firearms (accomplishing much the same thing as the other suggestion, but in a much more dramatic fashion).

I do not personally practice open carry in urban enviroments, as I prefer not to draw attention to myself. I don't like to explain myself or to debate with people. I like to be left alone, and open carrying doesn't get you left alone.

I often open carry in rural environments where there are fewer people. The people I've run into while openly carrying have either not appeared to notice, or else appeared apprehensive at first, but relaxed when I smiled and greeted them.

Having said all that, I'll say that I'm not one to carry openly every day, but I would be willing to participate in a national or state-wide open carry day. I would also be willing to participate in a boycott of any businesses which posted no-weapons signs. To those who routinely carry openly, I applaud you, but it's just not for me.

icebones
April 14, 2008, 07:16 PM
i strongly agree with open carry, but lets not scare the sheep.

remember in the 1960's when the black panthers marched on the streets with their guns?

worked out well for them didnt it...


if you do open carry, let me suggest that you dress in appropraite clothing. which is more presentable to an avarage joe?

---a guy wearing a cut-off flannel shirt, with a beer bottle in his back pocket and a .44 revolver stick haphazardly in his home-made belt

---or a guy, wearing jeans, a common every day shirt and a person who acts with a professional demenor, his carry weapon holstered?

the point im trying to get across is, when if you do open carry, you are representing gun owners in the public eye. dont put a hex on our image as law-abiding responsable americans...

i dont have much money, and i shurely cant afford dress clothes, but dress like you are a responsable person...

anybody agree with me?

6_gunner
April 14, 2008, 07:20 PM
I agree with you, icebones, but I still think the open carry day is a good idea. We should just all dress and behave in a professional manner, like you suggested.

I don't think anybody is suggesting that we march in the streets, but just to carry openly while we go about our business in our usual manner.

Clipper
April 14, 2008, 07:22 PM
Jesse, you and Texas need to lighten up. He's talking about guerilla tactics FIGURATIVELY...

OCing quietly and with dignity and class will win the day, not making an in-your-face event out of it...It needs to be a non-event for people to see a free person OC.

mek42
April 14, 2008, 08:15 PM
OC is illegal in NY, but I do hope the rest of you guys have fun!

Jdude
April 14, 2008, 08:50 PM
I'm in. I don't even know what day it will be but I'll be open carrying on that day, the one before, and the one after.

Pat-inCO
April 14, 2008, 08:57 PM
I guess you could say I'm just down right lazy. I really do not like
to spend my time (some would say waste it) arguing with law
enforcement about my right to openly carry a gun. Not when there is
such an easy way to avoid it. I use a "Safepacker" that is available
from Dillon or directly from the manufacturer (also in Az). NO I do
not get any money for this piece.

I carry in the Safepacker any time I'm away from my house. Do many
people that see it "know" that I'm packing? I'll bet that almost half
do. I work as a communications volunteer for the police about two or
three times per year. In each case, the officers will do a double
take on the Safepacker, smile and go on about their business. If I
were to OC, I'd be told to go home. I'll bet that is because with the
obvious CCW, I've proven I'm willing to go through the hassle of
obtaining the permit AND (notice the big AND there) they do not have
to explain to some sheeple why I carry a gun. Saves us both time.

I'm coming to believe that some who OC actually do that to attract
attention. Let's face it, no one can OC for more than ten minutes and
not see someone else react. Are there places that OC makes total sense?
ABSOLUTELY, but most of those places are not in the cities! Why then
would anyone want to attract attention to themselves and their gun?
Ya got me Phred! But it is obvious that some do.

I'm reminded of the number of brain dead teenagers that DEMAND THEIR
RIGHTS! As if, simply by being born, everyone suddenly owed them. I'm
sure every one of you have seen them. It's their RIGHT to say what
ever they want, where ever they want, ignoring (good?) manners. They
also seem to think that it is their RIGHT to liter and make a mess
for everyone else (WHAT? ME PICK UP AFTER MYSELF?). After all, their
rights MUST supercede every one else's. They forget that THEIR rights
END when they are about to infringe on someone else's rights
(remember "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness"?). Sheeple do,
after all, have rights to. Why not just let them go on their oblivious
ways and stay out of mine?

What many choose to forget is that our "rights" are not God granted.
If they were God granted then there would NOT be such transgressions
as China, Tibet, the old Russia, Iraq, Iran, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
Our "rights" are granted by our society, with reasonable expectation
that we will, in return, abide by the expectations of the society that
grants us those rights. That means that your "rights" - END - where
they are about to conflict with the "rights" of another citizen of
OUR society. If that is too difficult for you to comprehend, I suggest
you try living in another country for a while and see just how many
"rights" you suddenly DO NOT HAVE, that are common place in the United
States.

I am NOT suggesting that you cease OC. I am suggesting that you find
an argument - far - beyond "I'VE GOT MY RIGHTS" as your justification
to others, for what you choose. While it is no skin off my nose if you
choose to be known as a brain dead teenager, it DOES infringe upon MY
rights by requiring me to explain to many, many sheeple that you are,
in fact, allowed to OC and that you are not really a threat to them.
That puts me in the position of cleaning up after you, because YOU
are far too lazy to explain your choices in a calm and reasonable way.

I would really like to see at least twenty-five people show us some
calm, reasonable "arguments" for OC that DO NOT include "my rights",
or "I'm allowed to do that" or any of the other brain dead answers.
Calm, articulate replies are solicited. Those with other modes will
stand out as such.

JesseL
April 14, 2008, 09:39 PM
I would really like to see at least twenty-five people show us some
calm, reasonable "arguments" for OC that DO NOT include "my rights",
or "I'm allowed to do that" or any of the other brain dead answers.

In another thread I stated some of my reasons for open carry as:


Comfort. It's just more comfortable to wear an OWB holster, and not have the gun rubbing my skin.
Education. I think it's important for people to see a peaceable citizen carrying a firearm, and see the lack of ensuing violence.
Deterence. I think most criminals are inherently cowardly. They're not going to be interested in risking their skin to take on an armed victim. They'll find an easier mark.
Power. When you're not trying to keep it hidden, you can carry a gun that's much bigger. Bigger guns are easier to shoot, hold more rounds, and hold bigger rounds.


However, I strenuously object to framing the discussion in these terms. This country was founded on the principle of liberty. A free society does not ask you to justify the exercise of your rights, rather any infringement of rights must be thoroughly justified.

How would you feel if you someone said:
I would really like to see at least twenty-five people show us some calm, reasonable "arguments" for their religion that DO NOT include "my rights", or "I'm allowed to do that" or any of the other brain dead answers.

Does that have a slightly offensive and presumptuous ring to you?

Also, this is patently untrue:
I'm coming to believe that some who OC actually do that to attract
attention. Let's face it, no one can OC for more than ten minutes and
not see someone else react.

I can open carry every day and go weeks or months without seeing any reaction.

TexasSkyhawk
April 15, 2008, 12:06 AM
I'm coming to believe that some who OC actually do that to attract
attention. Let's face it, no one can OC for more than ten minutes and
not see someone else react. Are there places that OC makes total sense?
ABSOLUTELY, but most of those places are not in the cities! Why then
would anyone want to attract attention to themselves and their gun?
Ya got me Phred! But it is obvious that some do.

Pat,

There's a little town in far West Texas the wife I and like to fly to. I was born and raised in West Texas (though, not THAT far west) and what you'll find in many West Texas towns and cities is that we may be polarized when it comes to politics, but not gun rights.

Sarah Brady and her crap is about as welcome where I'm from as fire ants inside a tube of Preparation H.

In this far West Texas town, my wife and I land, secure the airplane and then walk to the corral where a caretaker has us a couple of horses waiting. First thing I do is strap on my shoulder rig that holds my S&W Model 29 with the hogleg barrel. My wife straps on a holster (hip) that holds her S&W Model 66 four-inch.

And then it's into town we ride.

The majority of people in this town carry openly--and in outright defiance of Texas' "no open carry" laws. One of favorite folks in that town to have a chicken-fried steak with is a Texas Ranger who is good friends with one of my cousins, also a Texas Ranger. Bill doesn't bat an eye at all the guns being open-carried in defiance of our "law."

And if anyone could straighten things out in a bigtime hurry, it would be Bill. I've known Bill since my special agent days. He was a Green Beret in Vietnam--came home with two Silver Stars and matching Purple Hearts. He's the real deal and a legendary lawman in those parts.

But Bill don't give a damn about law-abiding folks exercising their rights. And, want to venture what the crime rate is in that town, let alone the county?

Zilch.

Everyone, literally, is armed and everyone, literally knows it. It sends a clear, unmistakable message to criminals and would be miscreants that not only are they and their kind not welcome, but they and their antics will not be tolerated.

Imagine an entire nation like this little Texas town.

Originally Posted by Pat-inCO
I would really like to see at least twenty-five people show us some
calm, reasonable "arguments" for OC that DO NOT include "my rights",
or "I'm allowed to do that" or any of the other brain dead answers.

Well, for one, uniformed police officers do it everyday. Why do you suppose that is? And why do you suppose police officers are rarely mugged or carjacked or randomly assaulted or raped (in the event of female officers) or even jacked with by would-be thugs and bullies?

Yet, how often do police officers actually draw or brandish their weapon, let alone actually use it?

I know this will fall under your "rights" argument, but shouldn't I, JesseL and every other law-abiding citizen have that same right of deterrent that uniformed police officers do?

Another situation to consider . . .

Lot of folks are delivery drivers, and not just pizza delivery. Milk, beer, beverages, goods to retail stores, couriers, etc. In the wrong neighborhoods, their odds of having trouble increase--so much so that many companies do not let their drivers work in certain neighborhoods.

But for independent contractors, that's not always a viable financial choice.

If I were such an individual, I would much rather carry openly for both the deterrent factor as well as the speed and ease of access factor should I need my weapon.

How about folks who utilize public transportation? I once worked a detail in Washington DC on their subway and mass transit system. Saw a lot of "yokings" on various people.

Again, the criminals would be able to see real quick who is sheep and who is most definitely not sheep. And should the criminal be stupid enough . . . well, it's a lot faster to draw out of an open holster than an inside-the-waist holster.

I know--I've had to do both back in my cop days. Unfortunately, I was one of those long-haired undercover guys and the only time I got to carry open was when I had a raid jacket on.

Then, there is the comfort factor. For years and years, I carried a SigP220 inside my waistband. And while I got used to it, it was never as comfortable as a traditional holster rig.

A good friend of mine was with one of our sister agencies, the U.S. Marshals Service. Like me, he got in trouble in a lot because he preferred chasing fugitives and arresting them as opposed to waxing up the lips and kissing a supervisor's ass while playing "Mother May I?" in regards to doing his job.

He wore sport jackets because normally a marshal's weapon has to be concealed. His wife was constantly going nuts trying to patch up the spots in his coats where his gun had rubbed and ruined the liner.

I got a cousin who's a big city detective and who looks like what anyone would picture a Texas lawman to be--tall, silver hair, thick mustache, narrow eyes and looks like a cowboy in every sense of the word. Of course, he IS a cowboy--one helluva bareback bronc rider and team-roper.

His manner of dress, like mine and our Texas Ranger cousin and that of most of our family, is western, cowboy style. If we're going to carry armed (and we always do), the holster looks like it's just part of our normal outfit.

So, I'll add fashion to the list . . . (half-serious, half-kidding)

Just my take on it.

Jeff

JohnKSa
April 15, 2008, 12:18 AM
"So why you carrying a gun?" He asks. "Because I want to" I say in a flat voice while staring him in the eye.Winning the hearts and minds...

Jolly Rogers
April 15, 2008, 01:02 PM
"So why are you carrying a gun?" He asks. " Because a cop is too heavy" I say with a smile.
There...fixed it for you.
Joe

WayneConrad
April 15, 2008, 01:21 PM
I'm reminded of the number of brain dead teenagers that DEMAND THEIR
RIGHTS! As if, simply by being born, everyone suddenly owed them.

Pat-inCO, I do demand my rights. Every day. If you don't demand them, stand up for them, they disappear. I am owed my rights. So are you.

When Arizona got conceal carry, open carry was relatively common. It's now uncommon in the city, and in danger of becoming as socially unacceptable, and as de facto illegal as it is in the rest of the country. Those of us who continue to carry openly in the city can keep it alive and prevent that from happen. In that way, we are demanding that right. We are, we hope, keeping that right from disappearing*.

There is no doubt in my mind that conceal carry has been a powerful tool in second amendment advocacy. But it has been a true double-edge sword. Some CCW holders denounce those of us who carry without government permission, with justifications as elaborate as the CCW taxes are high.
I'm coming to believe that some who OC actually do that to attract
attention.

Are you nuts? Of course I'm looking for attention. The conversations I've had with people who didn't even know about gun rights in Arizona are are a big part of why I carry openly. I've given out phone numbers of NRA trainers to people who had no idea they could even have a gun. I've given out numbers of CCW training courses to people who wanted to carry concealed and didn't know they could. Yes, I did say CCW. We need more gun owners. I'm in this fight to win.

*A libertarian lawyer is going to remind me that rights can't disappear, & etc.. I know. :)

sv_libertarian
April 16, 2008, 01:07 AM
We do this a lot in Washington. Have lunches and get togethers and what not. And you know what? We are having fewer problems with OC it seems. Even in liberal places like Seattle and Olympia, it is getting easier all the time.

savetheclaypigeons
April 16, 2008, 04:02 PM
sounds like a good idea to me. Let the anti's put a kind face to guns instead of seeing the horrific images they've been brainwashed with. Anyone in the Louisville area who wants to get together for a lunch or something just shoot me a message

Nickotym
April 16, 2008, 05:14 PM
There is a Nat'l Open Carry day and weekend scheduled. I think I will be coming out of the shadows for open carry on those days as allowed by law.

Info is here (http://www.patriotpages.net/nationalopencarry.htm)

TexasSkyhawk
April 16, 2008, 11:41 PM
There you have it.

Great link, and thanks for posting it. Reckon I'll be wearing an empty holster . . .

Things like this work only if you--

Get off your butts and DO IT, and

Get of your butts and TELL OTHER GUN OWNERS TO GET OFF THEIR BUTTS AND DO IT.

And I like what y'all are doing up in Washington, having lunches and meetings and the such. Great job!

Jeff

Pat-inCO
April 17, 2008, 01:01 AM
Sarah Brady and her crap is about as welcome where I'm from as fire ants inside a tube of Preparation H.
PRICELESS!! I'm speechless. Have not laughed that hard in years. Love it! :D

Loanshark
April 17, 2008, 02:00 AM
I think choosing the 4th of July is a mistake... I like to drink on the 4th, and so do many others...

sv_libertarian
April 17, 2008, 02:08 AM
Jeff....
I'm a bit of a latecomer to the Washington OC game, I'm just riding on other people's coattails, but what we are doing here seems to be working.

I spent 6 interesting months in Big Spring, Howard County. Very unique country. I had people in Texas, way back with Austin's original 100. Fought against Mexico, and his son fought for the CSA...

I want to come back to Texas for a bit again.

Funny thing I get folks talking to me about OC and they say "This isn't Texas you know." I laugh and tell 'em "Yup, that's why I can OC" so may people can't believe how restrictive Texas is on gun carry. Shows what social conditioning and programing will do for a person...

Nickotym
April 17, 2008, 04:03 PM
I think choosing the 4th of July is a mistake... I like to drink on the 4th, and so do many others.

Then I guess those folks who want to drink should not participate. Maybe they should do the empty holster instead.

However, I believe the day we celebrate the independence of our country is a very appropriate day to do open carry. The only problem is some states may not allow carry during parades, but that is a time for the empty holster as well.

Oro
April 18, 2008, 08:51 PM
I will definitely be oc'ing those days - that's when we take a long weekend wtih the horses in the high country. No way I'm going to NOT oc...

W.E.G.
April 18, 2008, 09:10 PM
Indeed.

Don't ever drink and handle guns.

Otherwise, if you ever fire the gun in self-defense, or god-forbid you make a mistake, you will be crucified if it can be proved that you were drinking even the smallest amount prior to the incident.

WayneConrad
April 18, 2008, 10:07 PM
you will be crucified if it can be proved that you were drinking even the smallest amount prior to the incident.
Has there been an instance--documented, please--where a defendant in a self-defense shooting has been "crucified," or has his case damaged for having had a drink prior to the incident?

Winchester 73
April 19, 2008, 12:13 AM
Has there been an instance--documented, please--where a defendant in a self-defense shooting has been "crucified," or has his case damaged for having had a drink prior to the incident?

I've never heard of a case either.
Along this line, Firearms Author Clayton Cramer, has written an interesting article on Guns,Alcohol and Laws:

http://www.claytoncramer.com/PopularMagazines/GunsAlcoholAndLaws.htm

yhtomit
April 19, 2008, 12:57 AM
We do this a lot in Washington. Have lunches and get togethers and what not. And you know what? We are having fewer problems with OC it seems. Even in liberal places like Seattle and Olympia, it is getting easier all the time.

sv_libertarian:

Hey, how can I get clued in on these lunches and get-togethers? I'll be back in Washington (Seattle) late this summer, after a few years sojourn for school, and would like to take part ;) I suspect most diners would like the business of any bunch of polite, well-armed adequate tippers.

timothy

yhtomit
April 19, 2008, 01:02 AM
I think choosing the 4th of July is a mistake... I like to drink on the 4th, and so do many others...

As I understand it, the traditional drinks of the fellows who founded the U.S. were cider and beer. Safety, important -- but moderate alcohol intake (and I say this as something just a nosehair short of a teetotaller) is not incompatible with safety. (And by moderate, I mean just that. Impairment is impairment, but for many people, a beer or two consumed at other than a breakneck pace leads to no meaningful impairment. I am not one of those people, but Hey :))

timothy

volfandan
April 20, 2008, 01:15 AM
It's definitley your right to OC in states that allow....but honestly, why??? If you are somewhere and an armed robber storms in, or calmly scopes out and then draws.....you're going to be his FIRST TARGET. I'm totally for carry however you want, but just don't understand the mentality of why anyone would want to OC. I love my Para P-14/45, but a KT P3AT in the right front pocket just seems right for me.

Please understand that I am in NO way criticizing anyone who OC's. That is not my intention. I'm merely stating MHO, and hoping to be enlightened on others opinions of why to OC.

sv_libertarian
April 20, 2008, 01:27 AM
This again? What evidence do you have to support this belief that a robber will target an OC'er first? This myth pops up so often...

I believe if this had any grounding in reality, one would have heard documented cases of the "armed guy getting it" from places where OC has been common for years.

I don't like having a shirt, coat or pocket in the way of my gun. Nor do I like looking like the rest of the unarmed masses, (i.e., a potential victim...)

If you were a crook, would you choose the room with armed people in it, or would you go somewhere else?

Would you commit a crime in the presence of someone armed, or would you go somewhere else?

Or would you prefer to see unarmed people?

I read so many times where someone is CCing and has a bad encounter with someone and ends it by showing or drawing their weapon. Why let it get that far? Wear your weapon openly and discourage the BG. Let them go somewhere else. I don't want a situation to get far enough along where I have to pull back my coat, or pull my weapon out of my pants to show it's presence. I would rather Mr. Bad Guy see my weapon now strapped to my hip, rather than let him get far enough along in his plans where I have to handle my weapon or make a special effort to draw attention to it.

dave_pro2a
April 20, 2008, 01:46 AM
www.opencarry.org

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/

Winchester 73
April 20, 2008, 03:24 AM
you're going to be his FIRST TARGET

Another Urban Legend.
As sv libertarian says:
This again? What evidence do you have to support this belief that a robber will target an OC'er first? This myth pops up so often...

Prove it,baby!
Au Contraire,you will be the last target.

CNYCacher
April 20, 2008, 10:02 AM
"Because I want to"

-1

"Because I am my own security guard."
"I am my family's security guard."
"Cops and security guards don't get attacked as often as guys like me and you."

packnrat
April 20, 2008, 11:22 AM
not really....but i do support you and your people.:what:


and yes i do have a ccw, and do.:eek:



:uhoh:

.

brighamr
April 20, 2008, 12:34 PM
"Wouldn't the bad guy target the OC person first?"

I too would like to know where this myth came from. 9 out of 10 criminals who would "scope" out a place, would be looking for an easy target. If they see a couple guys in the establishment with guns, I don't think anyone short of a Mob Boss would rob the place. (It's just common sense, why rob an armed locale when there are so many others who have no protection?)

OC to draw attention -

The only attention I've drawn in my two years of daily OC is from people who are interested in my gun or the possibility of carrying themselves. I calmly and politely tell them why I do, and how it's legal. I personally know of two people who are now gun owners do to our conversations that started from them seeing my sidearm.

OC while drinking -

If you can't handle liquor you shouldn't have a gun, open or concealed. If you are like a lot of people, who can drink responsibly and only take one drink while talking to your buddies for a couple of hours, I see no problem. The only caveat is that some states (mine included) wont allow you to carry concealed or otherwise in an establishment that sells and allows consumption of alcohol on the premises.

This is the same point as DUI, IMO. If you can have one beer and drive without breaking the law, you should be able to have one beer and OC without breaking the law. Most court cases I've seen where someone crashed a car, they only mention alcohol if they can prove the person was over the legal limit. I think this would be the same thing in a self defense case.

Carrying an empty holster - this is also a regular part of my routine. Any time I go into a bar, stop by the post office or enter any other federal building my sidearm stays in the glove department of my truck, but I don't take my holster/belt off. I've had a couple people working in federal buildings who asked me about it, and I explained that until we can change the laws we will abide by them.

Why even carry concealed?

there are a few reasons why I occasionally carry concealed, but they are few and far in between. i think open and concealed both have value, but neither should be looked upon in a bad light. It's kind of like the debate between using an AR15 or a Remington Hunting Rifle chambered in .223. Many people will say the AR15 just "draws attention", "isn't needed", etc. BUT we the people can have both, and we should fight for both and use both as a means of keeping ALL of our rights. If the general populace of gun owners decided that hunting gophers with an AR is "too risky", they would probably be banned again.... kind of the same thing with OC IMHO.

/speech of the week

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