Gun show Loop-hole question?


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TnShooter83
April 14, 2008, 09:54 PM
What exactly is the GunShow Loop hole?
All the gun shows I've been to have FFL Dealers, and private citizens.

Last I checked it is legal to sale Personal/Privately owned firearms.
If you are selling them for primary income , and selling "NEW" firearms you need an FFL. And the NICS is NOT open to the public.

I haven't met ANY private sellers at the gun show, that makes a solid income on used firearms alone?

What laws are they proposing to stop Private Citizens of Private sells.
Stop them from setting up a table?
Make the NICS open freely to the public? (Legal issues here?????)
Stop Gun Owners from the right to assemble, and bear arms.......Not Likely...hahaha
I just can't see how it is going to be easy to STOP some one that brought a firearm to sell. Maybe it was inherited ect, and they don't need it?

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Henry Bowman
April 14, 2008, 10:18 PM
Remember that "loophole" is an other word for freedom. In this case, "gun show loophole" is a fiction created to suggest that a non-existent problem is the result of "trickery" being played by "those gun nuts."

Yes, my answer is biased. Still, the whole thing is an attempt to eliminate those minuscule number of private sales that occur at or as a result of three or more people getting together to buy/sell/trade legal machines made of metal, wood, and plastic. Because NICS is not available to the public, it would eliminate privates sales (of guns) at gun shows.

I haven't met ANY private sellers at the gun show, that makes a solid income on used firearms alone?That's because if they do, they are "dealers" and need to have an FFL. "Private dealer" or "unlicensed dealer" is an oxymoron.

Bill2e
April 14, 2008, 10:22 PM
There is no such thing as a gun show loophole. There are either FFL sales or Private sales.

GSL is a made up term by that plays well in the media by the anti's.

Frog48
April 14, 2008, 11:57 PM
The so-called "gun show loophole" is nothing but a bogus term created by the Brady bunch and anti-gunners of similiar ilk, in an attempt to outlaw private party sales. Basically, they want all firearm transactions on paper and processed through NICS, regardless who is selling and/or buying the gun.

Its all pretty ridiculous... for example: annually, more people are killed by vehicles than guns. But you dont hear anybody screaming that auto sales via newspaper classified ads be outlawed.

JohnKSa
April 15, 2008, 12:12 AM
It's propaganda.

There is no gun show loophole because exactly the same laws apply to firearm transactions at gun shows that apply everywhere else.

Given a buyer and a seller, if they can legally perform the transaction at a gun show then they can legally perform the transaction in a parking lot, in a gun store, at a gun range or in a private home. The procedure required by law to effect the transfer will be identical regardless of the location that the transaction takes place.

xjchief
April 15, 2008, 03:05 AM
The gun show loop hole is the place where they sell the 50 cal anti aircraft assault musket. :D

LAK
April 15, 2008, 04:39 AM
What exactly is the GunShow Loop hole?
It is taking advantage of people who do know any better by people who do.

And I can not think of many examples that better illustrate the fact that "democracy" is a destructive influence on government and a nation.

-------------------------

http://searchronpaul.com
http://ussliberty.org/oldindex.html
http://www.gtr5.com
http://ssunitedstates.org

Robert Hairless
April 15, 2008, 05:16 AM
There is so a Gun Show Loophole.

It's exactly the same as when one person decides to sell his car and another person decides to buy it, and they exchange money for the transaction. That is the Car Sale Loophole.

There's also the House Sale Loophole, which is the same idea. That's when someone sells his house to someone who buys and pays for it.

Loopholes like those are similar to the Voting Loophole. In the Voting Loophole a person casts a ballot without registering the votes he cast, which makes it difficult to track how the person voted.

There is no government oversight in any of those Loopholes, and that's just wrong. How can we have a perfect society if people get to do whatever they want to do whenever it comes into their heads to do it? I firmly oppose the Picture Show Loophole: there must be tight clamps on people who go to mind wasting, brain rotting movies.

Deanimator
April 15, 2008, 09:11 AM
There's no such thing. What it is is a backdoor appeal for registration of firearms, since the ONLY way to close this imaginary "loophole" is to prohibit private sales in which there is no government record.

And as we all know, registration has no purpose other than facilitation of future confiscation.

Sergeant Sabre
April 15, 2008, 09:37 AM
All the gun shows I've been to have FFL Dealers, and private citizens.

Ah ha! See, you just thought that those were private citizens. Really what you saw were unlicensed dealers.

Is there possibly any more of a weasel-way to phrase that? Think of "unlicensed driver", "unlicensed electrician", "unlicensed doctor", etc. What a perfect phrase to catch the ear of the sheep.

mbt2001
April 15, 2008, 10:36 AM
As others have said, the "loop hole" is a private party sale or gift...

Imagine if you daughter moved to say Dallas for a job right out of college. You being naturally concerned give her one of your .38's for personal protection... With a closed loophole you would have to conduct a background check...

It would also outlaw your heirs getting your weapons once you die. It is utter non-sense to act as if a criminal can go to a gunshow an buy a gun anytime he wants... I mean they don't happen all the time. They don't even happen every month.

It isn't the gun show they are going after, it's us.

yhtomit
April 15, 2008, 11:08 AM
"unlicensed driver", "unlicensed electrician", "unlicensed doctor"

One thing that makes this comparison difficult is that people are pretty stuck on the idea that these things *should* be licensed. (And of the ones you name, for driving, I don't mind a competency test + resulting license.)

It's difficult for people to understand that licensure is (however useful or well-intentioned) establishmentarian. A "licensed doctor" is someone who meets the criteria of the AMA / his state's licensing board, not necessarily a good healer. A licensed electrician may be no more competent than your neighbor who learned wiring and repairs in the Navy 30 or more years ago.

I'd like to think that the terms "licensed artist," "licensed writer," "licensed pastor" or "licensed parent" would make people sit bolt-upright and sputter "B-b-b-but you have a RIGHT to [produce art /write/ believe/procreate]!" To which the answer is, Yep, you sure do.

However, there's plenty of top-downism in the world, and to the idea that writers (esp. journalists) should be licensed (that is, approved by the institutions on which they could theoretically act as a check) , many Americans might be puzzled to find out that they're NOT licensed now. And I've certainly heard calls for Americans to be hampered by an officialistic, license-centric definition of the word "engineer," too.

(Milton Friedman was clever enough to get a few nice prizes, and he was against medical and legal licensure -- I'm with him :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism_and_Freedom)

timothy

benminer
April 15, 2008, 12:50 PM
When people bring up the GSL I usually remind them that there is also a sand castle loophole (SCL) because there are no federal laws regulating the building of sand castles.

Funderb
April 15, 2008, 01:06 PM
Dont forget the SML, a lot of kids and adults are succumbing to criminal acts by building snow men without a Federal Snow Manipulation License. (FSML). There must be some way to close this snowman loophole. Maybe we can ban snow. It's has worked so very well here in Florida, I am much safer now!!

UTdave
April 15, 2008, 02:20 PM
So these proposed laws only ban private party sales at "gun shows", not normal face to face sales?

Deanimator
April 15, 2008, 02:58 PM
So these proposed laws only ban private party sales at "gun shows", not normal face to face sales?
Don't bet on it. They're impossible without banning private sales. Otherwise, how would they know? Somehow I doubt they'd be happier with me driving to the Denny's parking lot and buying a guy's gun without paperwork than they'd be with me buying a guy's gun at the gunshow at the Cuyahoga County Fairgrounds without paperwork. You just have to accept the incontrovertible fact that the people who push this stuff are pathological liars with an agenda not well served by honesty and candor.

ProficientRifleman
April 15, 2008, 04:39 PM
They ultimately want to prevent YOU from trading guns with your neighbor without going down to your local FFL and begging permission from the state or the feds first.

That is where this is headed. Gun shows are just an easy target for NOW.

Jim K
April 15, 2008, 05:03 PM
A "loophole" is a mistake in the way a law is written that allows some unintended exception.

The gun show loophole is in the same category as the oatmeal loophole. Some people think oatmeal is disgusting and nasty, but Congress has not seen fit to ban it. So some people buy and eat oatmeal.

There is no gun show "loophole". Congress has deliberately chosen not to ban private firearms sales within a state, between residents of that state, because they don't feel it is a federal issue. That is the "loophole", something Congress has chosen not to ban - just like oatmeal.

Jim

6_gunner
April 15, 2008, 06:13 PM
The gunshow loophole is either a myth or a lie, depending on how you look at it. I'm sure it started out as a deliberate lie, but now its so widely talked about that its really become mythical.

The fact is, private sales can occur anywhere. The fact that they occur often at gunshows is only logical, since that's where people go to trade guns.

In reality, there is no more of a "gunshow loophole" than there is a "my living room loophole" or a "Wal-Mart parking lot loophole."

People who know what they're talking about, but continue to use the term "Gun Show Loophole" are deliberately trying to mislead people in order to close gun shows entirely, outlaw private sales entirely, or both.

Anyone who talks about "closing the gun show loophole" is either misinformed or is deliberately twisting the truth, and they should be ignored or rebuked either way.

ranger335v
April 15, 2008, 06:47 PM
"So these proposed laws only ban private party sales at "gun shows", not normal face to face sales?"

No! The "loop hole" laws are intended to require ALL sales between ANY individuals to be handled by a licensed dealer and go throught the background check and time delay if required. Many gun dealers want it to be passed because they will get to handle the deal, at a price of course.

Even worse, we couldn't gift a firearm to a son or grandkid without the blessings of the gov. Any collections would also have to be willed and go through the same process. If you have more than a couple of guns to pass on it could cost the receiver quite a bit of money to enjoy what you wanted to be freely given.

As mentioned above, it would be like you couldn't will your home to a child or sell it privately to a friend without the law requiring some realtor to handle the transaction and you paying him the normal 6-10% commission of the property's value to do it!

Mall Ninja
April 16, 2008, 12:23 AM
The bottom line is, they want everything "on paper."

They're making a list and they're checking it twice, boys and girls, and we all know what happens when Santa turns into Satan.

Registration leads to confiscation.

JohnKSa
April 16, 2008, 02:08 AM
So these proposed laws only ban private party sales at "gun shows", not normal face to face sales?They also redefine "gun show" so that it would include many (if not all) face-to-face sales.

Rmeju
April 16, 2008, 03:35 AM
The "Gun Show Loophole" is a made up name for a nonexistant problem, (invented by people who think that the government should be 100% in control of the firearms trade) the closing of which will not even end the non-criminal behavior it is trying to stop.

I, RmeJu, can sell a gun to a person face to face just outside of a gunshow without theoretical fear of prosecution (reality is a different story!). Right now, all they want to do is stop me from selling inside the building/fairgrounds.

Later, admidst their next scandal, they'll make a law saying I have to be 1000 feet away from a gunshow, because 1-999 feet will be the new "gunshow loophole". The logical end of this argument is that all firearms transactions for all people should be done with government approval.

Reid

m38shooter
April 16, 2008, 10:10 AM
GSL is an idiotic concept thrust upon a public too busy watching Friends reruns to know any better and too lazy to look into it.

The comparison to privately selling a car is completely off-base though. In many states, a private gun sale requires no paperwork to be filed with any authority. As far as I'm aware, ALL states require that the title of a motor vehicle be changed to show the new owner's name, whether through a dealership or a private individual.

GEM
April 16, 2008, 10:58 AM
The idea is that private sales don't go through NICS. Also, that gun shows provide an easier venue for folks to get together to do private sales that avoid NICS.

Periodically, local guns stores in various towns try to get their local government to ban gun shows. Happened here.

I do know folks who when they do a private sale, record the driver's license number, address, etc. from the person who buys the gun.

Rmeju
April 16, 2008, 09:47 PM
Every time a private transfer ban comes up on the agenda at the local, state, or federal level, I want everybody calling their congressmen demanding an amendment making it illegal to charge any money whatsoever for an FFL transfer.

Let's see how many local gun stores support it then.

Reid

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