College Campus Carry is the headline on CNN at the moment (merged)


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blkbrd666
April 15, 2008, 10:21 AM
In case anyone wasn't aware, it's getting front page attention at the moment.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/14/campus.guns/index.html

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Feud
April 15, 2008, 11:02 AM
The lead story on CNN.com right now is campus carry:

http://www.cnn.com/

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/14/campus.guns/index.html

Floppy_D
April 15, 2008, 11:10 AM
I was coming over to post that. I'm bringing this up in all of my classes for the rest of the week.

Robert Hairless
April 15, 2008, 11:42 AM
Gene Ferrara, the police chief at the University of Cincinnati, makes a good point in the article below.

Chief Ferrar's point is that if students with concealed weapons permits were allowed to defend their lives with legally carried guns, he and the other campus police wouldn't know the difference between the good guys and the bad guys. They might shoot one of the good guys instead of one of the bad guys. I can see where the present situation is much tidier: the bad guys get to murder the good guys and there's no confusion about it.

Of course the present situation also makes it easy for Chief Ferrar to tell the difference: the good guys will be dead on the ground and the bad guys might be alive. So the person left standing after a campus massacre is obviously the bad guy. As the only person left alive, he stands out.

If the good guys could defend themselves they also might be alive, which would confuse Chief Ferrar. He couldn't know whether the people left alive were the good guys or the bad guys, so he might be tempted to shoot everyone left standing after a campus massacre. This would work. He would have created exactly the situation that now exists, which is a situation that Chief Ferrar and most universities evidently prefer and want to continue. It's clearer when all the dead people are the good guys and the authorities don't have to worry about making decisions which they are evidently too stupid to make.

Decisions of this kind pose a real problem for the campus police and, possibly, for other law enforcement agencies that might be staffed with incompetents and the mentally challenged. For them the obvious solution to this problem is for the good guys to be defenseless so the bad guys can murder them and not confuse things for the police, who obviously are easily confused.

Me, if I were a law enforcement officer coming upon an active shooter situation, I would shout something like "Drop your gun!" and make my decisions based on the response. But campus cops obviously can't figure out such things, nor should they be expected to do so.

In fact what I would do if I were Chief Ferrar or his equivalent is to hold training sessions for CWP holders on campus and teach them how to behave should such situations occur. But my idea is probably too simple to be practical, even though it's what CWP holders usually learn in training: what to do if they have to defend their lives. That works in the real world, where people are much smarter than they are on college campuses, which is where society evidently houses the really stupid people so they can be taught by even stupider people and be safeguarded by mental incompetents like the Chief of Police at the University of Cincinnati. Which doesn't mean he isn't a nice person, of course. It's just that I wouldn't want him to date my daughter. Or to protect her either.

Students want chance to defend themselves

CINCINNATI, Ohio (CNN) -- "Would you rather just sit there and cower underneath a desk when someone executes you or would you rather have a chance to defend your life? That's what it really boils down to."

Michael Flitcraft, a 23-year-old sophomore at the University of Cincinnati, has become a leading advocate for college students to carry weapons on campus. He's an organizer for Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, a grass-roots organization that was formed after last year's Virginia Tech massacre that left 32 college students and professors dead.

The group boasts more than 25,000 members.

Standing on the Cincinnati campus, Flitcraft calmly explained he is licensed to carry a weapon in Ohio. He wants to carry his gun on campus to defend himself from potential killers, but by law he can't.

"To me it makes no sense that I can defend myself legally over there," he said, pointing to the city streets. "But I am a felon if I step on the grass over here."

The issue of guns on campuses has intensified over the last year in the wake of the Virginia Tech shootings and picked up again after the more recent killings at Northern Illinois University. Lawmakers in at least nine states are considering legislation to allow guns on campus. Other states have struck down legislation.

Utah is the only state to allow weapons at all public universities. Colorado allows students at universities to carry weapons, except the main university campus in Boulder. In Virginia, Blue Ridge Community College allows students with a proper concealed-weapons permit to be armed.

For many, allowing college students to carry a gun is a tricky and complex issue.

"I don't think the answer to bullets flying is to send more bullets flying," said Gene Ferrara, the police chief at the University of Cincinnati. "My belief is we ought to be focusing on what we do to prevent the shooting from starting."

Ferrara was a Cincinnati cop for more than a dozen years before he became chief of police at the university. He also said that there are practical concerns from a law enforcement perspective: If you're responding to the scene of a shooting, how do you sort out who is the bad guy and who is the heroic student with a permit?

"The other side of that, I shoot everybody with a gun who doesn't have a uniform on and I then I end up shooting somebody who was a citizen with a carry permit," Ferrara said.

He says education and outreach are key and that providing students with safe and anonymous ways to report suspicious behavior can go a long way in preventing violence. "All of the research shows someone knew before the shooting started that the shooting was going to happen."

At the University of Cincinnati, most of the students who spoke to CNN said the idea of guns on campus scares them. "I think that it is completely absurd," said senior Jacob Metz.

Freshman Lauren Reams added, "It shocks me."

Security officials insist that young adults are safer on campus than just about anywhere else. Since the so-called Texas Tower shootings at the University of Texas in 1966 when 17 people were killed, there have been about a dozen shootings at colleges or universities.

At Weber State University in Utah where students can carry concealed weapons, professor Ron Holt said a weapon provides added protection from potential gunmen. "I see carrying a concealed firearm as a kind of life insurance policy; 99.99 times you will never need it," he said.

Flitcraft and other students across the nation who support gun rights say they won't give up. Students for Concealed Carry on Campus has established a page on the social network site Facebook. They don't want all students to be armed; what they're pushing for is for students 21 and older who are licensed gun owners to have the right to carry guns on campus.

The group is busy planning a protest for later this month in which students who support guns on campus will come to school wearing empty holsters.

"What is a better situation: Someone coming in and shooting in a classroom [or] someone in that classroom having a chance to defend their life and take out that threat?" Flitcraft said.

WayneConrad
April 15, 2008, 12:04 PM
Chief Ferrar's point is that if students with concealed weapons permits were allowed to defend their lives with legally carried guns, he and the other campus police wouldn't know the difference between the good guys and the bad guys. They might shoot one of the good guys instead of one of the bad guys. I can see where the present situation is much tidier: the bad guys get to murder the good guys and there's no confusion about it.

No kidding, Robert.

Chief Ferrar will have no problem telling them apart. The good guy will have his sidearm holstered. The bad guy will be on the ground. In no campus shooting have the police ever gotten there in time to do anything other than count the bodies.

The chief needs refresher training. The chief's training, way back when he was an officer, included verbal commands such as "drop the weapon!" Is he claiming that he would ignore all of his training and just shoot everyone willy-nilly? The chief needs to go back to acadamy.

The office of police chief seems to give a person an instant lobotomy. Politicians.

Robert Hairless
April 15, 2008, 12:42 PM
Wayne, Chief Ferrar is speaking from the current script used by campus police chiefs.

All of those people whose interviews I've seen say exactly the same thing: if the good guys are armed and able to defend themselves, the campus cops won't be able to tell the good guys from the bad guys and won't know who to shoot.

So I infer that the campus police chiefs are all untrained, mentally defective, and incompetent, and I suppose that's a bit of a problem. But that's not the major problem I see.

There are two other problems that I think are much more serious. Who hires the idiots to administer a campus and are sufficiently stupid to hire and retain an idiot like Chief Ferrar? That problem, as I see it, is that the President and Board of Trustees at such a college must be so lacking in intelligence that they don't immediately catch the stupidity that Chief Ferrar is peddling and fire him before he finishes the very first time he says it. No one of even ordinary thinking ability should swallow that kind of nonsensical babbling. But the college presidents and their boards do, which helps me to understand why institutions of higher learning are so badly run.

Which leads me to the third, and much more serious, problem that concerns me. Are students and their parents indeed so stupid as to hear such moronic ravings without demanding that Chief Ferrar and the entire university administration be tarred, feathered, and ridden out of town on a rail--the same rail for them all, by the way. If so our country is irretrievably, irrecoverably lost and it has no future. We might as well change all the men's names to Barack Obama and all the women's names to Hillary Clinton, and give it up.

I do think that there can be legitimate discussions about matters of campus safety, but thinking like Chief Ferrar's--and other campus police chiefs--is so quintessentially stupid that it is embarrassing even to read.

Geacko
April 15, 2008, 12:54 PM
I responded about an hour ago, as of yet they haven't posted it.
After you send your response in you get a message saying that they screen it before putting it up, and do to limited space they pick and choose which responses to post.
If they decide to put it up I'll be the only Tom on there who posts something that makes sense. At least in my opinion.

bogie
April 15, 2008, 01:08 PM
That's the same mentality that says that "lockdown" is the way to deal with a dynamic violent situation. All it does is ensure that the scene is relatively "uncluttered" for the reports in the aftermath.

Let's look at a hypothetical...

There are three bodies on the ground. Two of them have multiple 9mm wounds. One has three .45 wounds, and has a 9mm lying next to it. There's a guy sitting next to the wall with a .45, magazine out, and slide back, on the floor in front of him. The first, and only, thing he says is "He yelled that he wanted to kill everyone, and started shooting people."

Ergo, we can only assume, from the actions of the campus chiefs, that they do not think that their officers are intelligent enough to deal with this sort of situation. Which leads me to wonder WHY IN BOB'S NAME WOULD I WANT TO TRUST THEM WITH MY LIFE?

NG VI
April 15, 2008, 01:10 PM
Michael
updated 4 minutes ago I am surprised as well. The last thing you want is a classroom to be the middle of a gunfight. I think kids these days watch too much TV and play too many "one shot kills" video games.

Let's take the Vi ...more
I am surprised as well. The last thing you want is a classroom to be the middle of a gunfight. I think kids these days watch too much TV and play too many "one shot kills" video games.

Let's take the Virgina example. Guy comes in starts killing people in the front row. A kid goes into his backpack or waist to get his gun. Now the crazed gunman's attention is up higher. If you are not fast enough and you miss among all the chaos, the gunmen is now spraying the upper rows with bullets


That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Is this dude arguing that a student firing back at a rampaging murderer will only draw attention to the students further back in the room? Does he think killers can't see you unless you move? This is really sickening, because if you read a little more into it, this man would be perfectly willing to sacrifice everyone else in the room by hiding even if he did have the means to protect himself and his classmates.

No wonder these people don't want responsible adults to protect their lives, they are only concerned with wether or not they might be hit by a stray.

blkbrd666
April 15, 2008, 01:14 PM
That campus security guard is a pretty scary one...questioning his own ability to "read" a situation. We had one on my campus that we called "One Bullet Barney" and it would have been scary to see him draw his weapon...there is no telling who he would have shot in a serious situation...possibly even himself.

CountGlockula
April 15, 2008, 01:19 PM
Good point Robert Hairless in regards to campus police WORKING TOGETHER with CCW students.

What a thought?!! Working together, instead of against each other, in fighting crime.

tmajors
April 15, 2008, 01:20 PM
If you're responding to the scene of a shooting, how do you sort out who is the bad guy and who is the heroic student with a permit?

The bad guy either shoots at you or shoots himself. The good guy drops his gun and puts up his hands. Course sometimes the bad guy does that too, but so far not so much on campus shootings.

Nagant
April 15, 2008, 01:25 PM
Did he really say he was going to shoot everyone with a gun??? wow... I'm with you guys... he either needs to get re-trained, or be given back whatever part of his brain is currently missing... ridiculous. totally stupid....:scrutiny:

NG VI
April 15, 2008, 01:28 PM
poppop!

novaDAK
April 15, 2008, 01:34 PM
They bring up that fact. Well, tell me this. What happens when this occurs outside of a college? How do the police tell who the good guy in a shooting incident elsewhere? Easy. The good guy will drop his gun when he sees the cop with their gun drawn at him. The bad guy (if he is still alive, remember that the cops will come minutes after the shooting has occurred) will most likely either turn to shoot the cop or will off himself.

Either way, I feel that even in the off chance which is very unlikely, if a cop shot me thinking I was a bad guy, so be it. At least there wasn't 30 people dead instead of a few.

Geacko
April 15, 2008, 01:39 PM
Sweet, they posted it!
Tom
updated 16 minutes ago
How can you have a more restrictive gun law than "no guns allowed."
Ferrara shouldn't have anything to worry about when trying to figure out which person to shoot, the police never show up to a university shooting while the gunman is still alive.
ONE armed citizen can stop a shooting within seconds of it starting. The police can take several minutes to get there. Let's say that the shooter is going at a fairly slow pace and averaging one shot per second. if the cops take 3 minutes to get there from the first shot that's 180 shots.
Which really sounds like a better situation to you?

If guns are the problem then why bother putting the shooter in prison?

romma
April 15, 2008, 01:50 PM
"The other side of that, I shoot everybody with a gun who doesn't have a uniform on and I then I end up shooting somebody who was a citizen with a carry permit," Ferrara said.



Geez, let the ccw student make the choice and gamble if they want...


Another stupid baseless argument!

JohnL2
April 15, 2008, 01:51 PM
I do believe that there is such a thing as over-thinking something.

So let me see if I have this right. My God given right to defend myself should be taken away from me when I walk onto a college campus just because the Chief is an idiot?

ExtremeDooty
April 15, 2008, 02:12 PM
If you're responding to the scene of a shooting, how do you sort out who is the bad guy and who is the heroic student with a permit?

How would you sort out the bad guy if the shooting was at a Walmart or the Post Office? How is this more difficult on a college campus?

"The other side of that, I shoot everybody with a gun who doesn't have a uniform on and I then I end up shooting somebody who was a citizen with a carry permit," Ferrara said.

Shoot first and ask questions later? I feel so much safer knowing that this guy has a gun. I think the police academy that trained this man should be investigated immediately.

Ithaca37
April 15, 2008, 02:16 PM
"The other side of that, I shoot everybody with a gun who doesn't have a uniform on and I then I end up shooting somebody who was a citizen with a carry permit," Ferrara said.

Is that even permissible under the ROE's for cops??? I don't think they can just shoot eveybody......

CountGlockula
April 15, 2008, 02:22 PM
Make sure you guys share your thoughts on the comments area.

blkbrd666
April 15, 2008, 02:43 PM
I noted in the Sound Off area that Gene Ferrara appears to be the biggest confirmed campus threat at present. It changes the focus, but let's see if it gets posted.

StockKahr
April 15, 2008, 03:46 PM
In no campus shooting have the police ever gotten there in time to do anything other than count the bodies.


Amen.

Winchester 73
April 15, 2008, 04:11 PM
At the University of Cincinnati, most of the students who spoke to CNN said the idea of guns on campus scares them. "I think that it is completely absurd," said senior Jacob Metz.

Freshman Lauren Reams added, "It shocks me."


It's as if these people had never heard about the events at NIU or VT.
Now that's shocking.

subierex
April 15, 2008, 04:33 PM
At the University of Cincinnati, most of the students who spoke to CNN said the idea of guns on campus scares them. "I think that it is completely absurd," said senior Jacob Metz.

Freshman Lauren Reams added, "It shocks me."
It's as if these people had never heard about the events at NIU or VT.
Now that's shocking.

I really think it's simply representative of that (large) part of our society that is afraid to be responsible for their own lives. Because they are unsure of themselves, as we all are to some degree, it gives them comfort to assume that someone else is looking out for them (the cops). That combined with the knowledge that nobody they know has ever had a violent encounter, gives them the attitude they have.

bogie
April 15, 2008, 06:19 PM
Guys, if any of you are students, and end up getting involved in a Q&A with your campus (in)security, you HAVE to bring up something if the guy says that they might confuse CCW folks with a shooter...

"Sir, it doesn't sound like you think your officers are intelligent enough to tell the difference between a nutcase shooting people and someone defending themselves. Do you plan on raising your recruiting standards?"

Robert Hairless
April 15, 2008, 06:37 PM
It's something else, Subierex, and that something else is much more troublesome.

Notice what they say and how they say it. The college senior said: "I think that it is completely absurd." The college freshman added, "It shocks me."

What's striking is that they aren't "unsure of themselves." They are very sure of themselves and of their expectations about how the world should work. They know what they're much too young to know, and their minds are closed to what is unorthodox.

That's far too much sophistication for a teenager and a twenty-something. Those are stages of life in which young people need to be unsure and at least a little tentative, or else they can't learn who they are and why they are on earth. At least from these brief statements, these two lemmings have nothing to learn. They're closed.

Expressions of uncertainty would have been a much more appropriate response from them. When someone's mind is made up at age 22-24, what is left to learn except disappointment and cynicism?

Robert Hairless
April 15, 2008, 06:39 PM
"Sir, it doesn't sound like you think your officers are intelligent enough to tell the difference between a nutcase shooting people and someone defending themselves. Do you plan on raising your recruiting standards?"

Concise and to the point.

bogie
April 15, 2008, 06:57 PM
Whole idea is to get their brain to go into a loop. If it works right, they may be a bit more likely to actually consider logic... You have to break the audience's intellectual chain of "theory" with "reality."

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