Why the M9 and not the Hi-Power?


PDA






kamagong
April 15, 2008, 04:00 PM
Recently I've started looking at Hi-Powers as I want to get a nice 9mm for my fiancee. They've been a bit difficult to find and it was only this weekend that I've been able to have one in hand. It was a new FN in matte black, and it felt pretty good, better than any of the polymer pistols and much better than the Beretta.

I understand that part of the reason that the US went with the 9mm M9 was because they wanted to ammo compatibility with their NATO allies. But why did they choose the Hi-Power over the M9? By the 1980s the Hi-Power was already a battle proven sidearm. And given that many of our allies use the Hi-Power, it would have made more sense to adopt it. What happened?

If you enjoyed reading about "Why the M9 and not the Hi-Power?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
The Ruckus
April 15, 2008, 04:19 PM
Well, you have to look at some of the things the military wants in a sidearm...

-Manual Safety
-DA/SA
-Squared Trigger Guard
-Hi Cap Mag (13 rounds in 9mm doesn't cut it anymore)
-Cheap manufacturing costs

The Hi Power felt alot better in YOUR hands. There are plenty of people out there (me) who love the look and feel of the M9. Besides, costing almost double the price of the M9 the Hi Power better have a nice feel to it.

Pilot
April 15, 2008, 04:26 PM
Well, you have to look at some of the things the military wants in a sidearm...

-Manual Safety
-DA/SA
-Squared Trigger Guard
-Hi Cap Mag (13 rounds in 9mm doesn't cut it anymore)
-Cheap manufacturing costs

The Hi Power felt alot better in YOUR hands. There are plenty of people out there (me) who love the look and feel of the M9. Besides, costing almost double the price of the M9 the Hi Power better have a nice feel to it.


Well the Browning Hi Power does have a "Manual Safety" and there are 17 round mags available for the Hi Power, so capacity isn't the issue either.

The perceived extra safety of DA/SA and cost are the main factors. Your other statements smack of someone that either can't afford or doesn't appreciate the elegance, simplicity, better accuracy and "right" sizing for a 9MM the Hi Power provides. I love Berettas, and have several, but the M9 is way to big for the caliber and the operating system does not allow it to achieve the accuracy of the Browning system in guns like the Hi Power or CZ-75.

D-Man
April 15, 2008, 04:30 PM
Figure the M9 was a new design, and newer is always better, right?

Seriously, I think the DA/SA trigger was a big factor. The other main competitor to the handgun contract at the time was the Sig P226 which didnt' have a manual safety, so I'm not so sure if that was an issue.

Does the M9 have a 5" barrel? I know it's a larger gun, but couldn't remember how long it is. (A longer barrel would give it a small velocity / accruracy edge over the HP).

The Ruckus
April 15, 2008, 04:30 PM
Your other statements smack of someone that either can't afford or doesn't appreciate the elegance, simplicity, better accuracy and "right" sizing for a 9MM the Hi Power provides.

Funny, I could have swore we were talking about the military. With your irrelevant cheap shot aside, I wasn't saying the Hi-Power lacks ALL of these features, I was just saying it lacks a few of them. The military is obsessed with the concept that DA/SA is much safer than that of a SAO pistol. This is where reading the thread thoroughly would have helped you, we're speaking of the military and when we speak of the military price is the BIGGEST factor of all. If a weapon system costs too much for it's task, then they aren't going with it...bottom line.

Mike OTDP
April 15, 2008, 04:37 PM
The specification was quite explicit in calling for a DA or DA/SA gun. IIRC, FN did enter...but did not even make the first tier cut.

What is intriguing is that Glock did not bid for the contract. The outcome might have been different if they had.

Pilot
April 15, 2008, 05:09 PM
The Hi Power felt alot better in YOUR hands. There are plenty of people out there (me) who love the look and feel of the M9. Besides, costing almost double the price of the M9 the Hi Power better have a nice feel to it.

This statement of yours had nothing to do with the military. Your refer to "me" and that is why I made the statement.

legion3
April 15, 2008, 05:18 PM
The army required a double action pistol, "one that allowed the shooter to get a second strike on a defective primer in the event of a misfire without having to use the suport hand when resetting the pistol's mechanism."

Thus that left Glock out as Glock did not meet the armies technical requirements and all single action guns.

FN did submit its double action hipower but voluntarily withdrew the gun from consideration on May 31, 1984.

The guns in the XM9 test were:
1. Beretta 92 FS which was not a new design in 1984
2. Colt SSP - which was also withdrawn by the company and never developed
3. FN Double Hi power
4. H&K P7 M13 - which had a 13 round mag as did the FN gun
5. Sig P226 - the only other gun to pass all the criteria and to make a bid
6. S&W 459
7. Steyer GB (18 shot mag at the time)
8. Walther P88 (it was not called the P88 at this time, that name was given to its civilian version when it appeared in 1988)

Guns that were later tested in the XM 10 test of 87-88 also included:
Ruger P85
CZ 85

neither of which did better than the 92.

FWIW

The Ruckus
April 15, 2008, 05:19 PM
This statement of yours had nothing to do with the military. Your refer to "me" and that is why I made the statement.
Well sir, sorry for all of your confusion. I simply referred to our hand sizes to make a point that not everyone in the military has your hand size. I don't tend to take gun snobbish remarks lightly, a pistol is not inferior because it doesn't fit your hand, wasn't designed for you. With the flame war aside, although the lack of a barrel lug makes the 92FS less accurate than the Hi-Power it's DA/SA offers you a second chance to strike a primer if it fails to fire, rather than having to re-cock the hammer with a SAO. In door to door CQB I'd say thats very important.

legion3
April 15, 2008, 05:31 PM
Further

The Steyer GB was the first gun disqualified as it did not outperform the Colt 1911 A1 control pistol for reliablility and endurance.

Then went the FN Hipower withdrawn by the company.

Then went the Colt SSP withdrawn by the company

Walther P88 failed the adverse conditions test wet and dry mud

HK P7 failed the salt water test

Smith and Wesson failed the firing pin test and the endurance test

Leaving only the sig and beretta to bid

Beretta's winning bid per pistol = $178.50

Russ
April 15, 2008, 05:35 PM
The M9 is a nice pistol but it feels like a brick in my hands compared to a a High Power. I much prefer the feel of the HP or the CZ 75 or 85. The CZ will offer you the SA/DA if you want that while a BHP is single action only. I bought my BHP in 1986 and have never been disappointed with it. Came with 2 13 round mags. I later got 2 more 15 round mags made by Meg Gar which I think are even better than what came with the gun to begin with. For me, the BHP and the CZ's just fit my hand better.

UnTainted
April 15, 2008, 05:46 PM
Plus the U.S. had reduced some missile component contracts with the Italians, and political pressure urged the military to adopt the Italian firearm instead of the SIG.

When has it not been political?

retgarr
April 15, 2008, 05:50 PM
I think we have to realize that the CZ75 was also being built behind the iron curtain during these tests.
And the M9 simply fit the criteria.

legion3
April 15, 2008, 05:59 PM
Plus the U.S. had reduced some missile component contracts with the Italians, and political pressure urged the military to adopt the Italian firearm instead of the SIG.

When has it not been political?

Well that's not the "official version", basically Beretta underbid Sig, that's after Sig originally underbid Beretta but the Army asked for more requirements and asked both companies to make a last and final bid. Many feel this second bid was the "smoking gun" of the Italians were going to win no matter what. Who knows? Nevertheless the Beretta 92 was the only gun to take part in and pass all 3 US pistol trials, the Airforce test of 79, XM 9 and XM 10. FWIW.

Of course Beretta had one big advantage over Sig which was a fully functioning and staffed factory in Maryland which was aquired by Beretta in 1978 in order to produce the Model 950, Model 20 and 21 whose import was banned by the 1968 gun act. Thus, Beretta was able to get a factory up and going at considerably less cost than Sig which had no US plant at the time. And the contract required the guns to be wholly made in the US by year three of the contract.

This is one of the reasons Sig did not try to retest at the XM10 tests as it did not want to set up a US factory.

legion3
April 15, 2008, 06:07 PM
I think we have to realize that the CZ75 was also being built behind the iron curtain during these tests.
And the M9 simply fit the criteria.


In fact while the CZ 85 did take part in the XM10 test of 88-89 it was considered a problem because the country that made it was communist made the gun politically unacceptable, The US Army also, while not mandatory, wanted/preferred a gun with a hammer decocking lever which the CZ's did not have.

It appears from what came out of the XM10 test that the CZ 85 did quite well and equaled or surpassed the 92F and Sig 226 in most respects.

One other Army requirement was the gun had to be abidextrous for lefties and righties, thus why the CZ85 was used and not the 75.

Sorry If I seem nerdy on these details, I wrote a college thesis on the Pistol trials and the US Government procurment program.

Pilot
April 15, 2008, 06:21 PM
The Ruckus,

Sorry if I came off as demeaning. Not my intention at all. Nothing wrong with the M9, IMHO. As I said, I like Berettas, in fact I'm wearing an M85FS right now. Please accept my apology in the tone of my original post. I am a bit prejudice in that I think the BHP is THE wondernine, with the CZ-75 a close second.

lvcat2004
April 15, 2008, 07:34 PM
So if I were to purchase a Beretta 92FS, used or new, is the Italian made or U.S. made one supposed to better than the other??

19-3Ben
April 15, 2008, 07:49 PM
The Ruckus,

Sorry if I came off as demeaning. Not my intention at all. Nothing wrong with the M9, IMHO. As I said, I like Berettas, in fact I'm wearing an M85FS right now. Please accept my apology in the tone of my original post. I am a bit prejudice in that I think the BHP is THE wondernine, with the CZ-75 a close second.

And THAT, folks, is how a true gentleman makes an apology.

noskilz
April 15, 2008, 10:21 PM
Sorry If I seem nerdy on these details, I wrote a college thesis on the Pistol trials and the US Government procurment program.

Oh my goodness . . . where in the US of A did they let you write a college thesis on THAT?!? I would've thought they'd put you on the next bus out of town on political correctness charges within two weeks.

BTW, great info. :)

Joe the Redneck
April 15, 2008, 10:44 PM
The Beretta also has a fixed barrel which is great for accuracy.

It also has an open slide design. That makes a jam almost impossiable. If you keep it clean.

Meanwhile almost every cop in America carries a Glock...

axeman_g
April 15, 2008, 10:57 PM
but many cops used to carry the Berretta. They were replaced in the usual cycles by Glock as Gaston undercut Berretta's prices.

Capitalism at work... I love it when socialist use it against us.

The M9 is a SUPER gun. It is reliable, accurate and easy to shoot. The only issue is the size of the grip for some smaller troopers. It deserves respect and has earned our respect. I hope in 20 years people will buy them as collectors like 1911s.

The BHP is a great gun also... one of my all time favorites. But as was spoken of before it did not meet the initial criteria.

Legion, that was some great information. I know something about the XM9 test, but I did not know about the XM10 test... and the possible consideration of the CZ85... Another all timer. Good stuff... thank you. You should fund your old thesis and post it here and let people read it.

legion3
April 15, 2008, 11:08 PM
Oh my goodness . . . where in the US of A did they let you write a college thesis on THAT?!? I would've thought they'd put you on the next bus out of town on political correctness charges within two weeks.


Well it was a public university but it was not recently, today I doubt I would have tried it.

legion3
April 15, 2008, 11:12 PM
Oh my goodness . . . where in the US of A did they let you write a college thesis on THAT?!? I would've thought they'd put you on the next bus out of town on political correctness charges within two weeks.


Well it was a public university but it was not recently, today I doubt I would have tried it. And this paper is long gone, pre computer gone if you know what I mean. Typewriter anyone?

If you enjoyed reading about "Why the M9 and not the Hi-Power?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!