Has someone who understands "legal-ease" looked over the NRA Self Defense insurance?


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Green Lantern
April 15, 2008, 06:55 PM
I bought it last year, and it's up for renewal...

But something jumped out at me when I tried to wade through the jargon of the policy. If I understand right, it would ONLY apply to a SD shooting at HOME - as anything stemming from "carrying or transporting a gun in a car" is NOT covered?

IE, anywhere I carry in public, I naturally have to transport the gun (and MYSELF) there by car. ;)

That part is an exemption specifically named in the 1st part of the policy ("negligent discharge" coverage, it could be called maybe?)...but if I read it right, the second part (self-defense coverage) says it has all the exemptions of the first policy plus some more they list....

What do you guys think? Worth it or no?

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Hkmp5sd
April 15, 2008, 07:04 PM
Don't know much about the NRA insurance, but one of the best ways to protect yourself is to take one of Massad Ayoob's Lethal Force classes. In addition to excellent training, it is said that Ayoob will testify in your defense free of charge in the event you are charged/sued over a self defense shooting. Provided of course, you were legal and didn't violate your training.

Markbo
April 15, 2008, 07:15 PM
Where does Mass hold these classes?

Green Lantern
April 17, 2008, 12:17 PM
Hm, that's worth looking into...when I get time, travel, and money issues sorted out for it, of course. I'm in the sticks, I don't think Mas holds any classes closer than a half-days drive at least from here...

30 cal slob
April 17, 2008, 12:19 PM
Mas runs training through the Lethal Force Institute:

http://www.ayoob.com

LFI-I is a must-attend for folks who want the skinny in the legal, practical, and ethical implications of judicious use of deadly force.

The Lone Haranguer
April 17, 2008, 12:35 PM
Whether to attend LFI is a much different question from having this liability insurance. If such insurance is to do any good, it must cover you for a deliberate act, not just a negligent act, and when you're away from home.

Harley Quinn
April 17, 2008, 12:43 PM
Looks like the policy is limited to your home and a real self defense situation, so after you are arrested and found not guilty of a crime, they will assist you, :confused: otherwise it is not doing you any good at all:uhoh:

MillCreek
April 17, 2008, 06:39 PM
I read, interpret and apply liability insurance policies for a living, so the key issue is the actual policy language. Can anyone point me to where I can find the actual policy so I can take a gander at it?

Green Lantern
April 18, 2008, 12:02 AM
This should be the 'self-defense' part:

www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/selfdefensecert.pdf

And here's the "excess personal liability" plan that precedes the SD part...

www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/SectionI.pdf

THANKS! :D

Sebastian the Ibis
April 18, 2008, 11:43 AM
It sounds like a rip-off.

1. The insurance companies don't want to pay so you will have to force them to.

2. Do you really want the insurance company choosing your lawyer?? Insurance defense lawyers are the absolute bottom of the barrel, if they could do anything else- including personal injury, they would.

Go out right now and find a well respected criminal defense attorney. And keep his card in your wallet for when you really need it. Then if you ever drop a BG, call your lawyer immediately and let him call the police. This is much better keep out of jail insurance whatever they are selling.

If you are in South Florida I would recommend Roy Black: (305) 371-642.

DFW1911
April 18, 2008, 01:31 PM
Then if you ever drop a BG, call your lawyer immediately and let him call the police.

The importance of this statement should not be overlooked, as it implies you already have an attorney.

The time to get someone on retainer is not after an incident, it's well before.

If you don't have an attorney, get one, and put his / her number in your cell phone.

It's saved my bacon before.

Just my $.02

Take care,
DFW1911

princewally
April 18, 2008, 02:38 PM
The time to get someone on retainer is not after an incident, it's well before.

According to the attorney whose business card is in my wallet, criminal attorneys are rarely put on retainer before incidents arise.

It is a good idea to know which attorney to call and their stance on self-defense. I'd also shoot them an email telling them you are planning on calling, if you have a problem and asking if their office pages them in an emergency.

Sebastian the Ibis
April 18, 2008, 04:14 PM
You don't necessarily need to get a lawyer on retainer ahead of time. But you damn well better know a lawyer that will take your phone call at 3:00 a.m. and get over to your house immediately. 9:00 am the next morning is wayyy too late.

Talk to a couple of attorney's and figure out who you like. Once they figure out (1) you are not the scum bag they typically deal with, and (2) you have money and can pay their fee. They should give you their cell phone number and ask you to call them anytime you need to.

Most criminal defense attorneys are used to getting calls at all hours of the day and visiting their clients wherever. However, they don't want to go out in the middle of the night and get stiffed - thats why they have to know you ahead of time. If they don't know you they will want to at least run a credit check, which means they won't be speaking with you until their secretary arrives that morning to screen you. This is time you can't afford.

Everyone talks to the police, people just can't resist opening their yapper when the boys in blue show up. This is they absolute last thing you want to do when you are on an adrenaline roller coaster and there is a meth junkie bleeding out on your bedroom floor from double ought buckshot lead poisoning.

DFW1911
April 18, 2008, 05:43 PM
The time to get someone on retainer is not after an incident, it's well before.

According to the attorney whose business card is in my wallet, criminal attorneys are rarely put on retainer before incidents arise.


Fair enough - just semantics. I'm in the fortunate spot of having a very good defense attorneys in the area as a very close friend, so on retainer or not he's been there for me.

Sebastian hit the nail on the head:

But you damn well better know a lawyer that will take your phone call at 3:00 a.m. and get over to your house immediately. 9:00 am the next morning is wayyy too late.

I hope most follow our advice and find an attorney long before they need one (and I hope they never do).

jakemccoy
April 18, 2008, 06:22 PM
I'd call the police and then my attorney in that order. If I call my attorney first, that tends to indicate my shooting was not an emergency and that I think I may have committed a crime. No matter what, I could never undue the timeline. If that Pizza Hut delivery guy had called his attorney first, that would have looked questionable to most people (maybe not to THR members); he's not charged with anything last time I checked.

Plus, how do I know my attacker is dead? Maybe he's just in shock. I'm definitely not walking over to check his pulse. I'm not touching him. An ambulance might be in order. If I was screwing around with my attorney for a half hour and a doctor claims the attacker could have been saved, well, that's more fuel for the prosecution. A 911 call shows good faith and bolsters my credibility.

If I cannot reach my attorney before the police arrive, I tell the police, "I thought my life was in danger; I feel sick; I want my attorney." Then, I shut up.

I disagree with the poster that said 9am the next morning is too late. I'm prepared to man-up and spend a day or three in jail if I shoot someone. I'd just make sure to keep quiet about the matter.

Regarding having access to an attorney quickly, I'd align myself with a few young criminal attorneys, as well as a big gun. The big guns won't be coming for me at 3am, unless I'm the top client and they happen to be in town. Even then, the big guns are big guns for a reason, and coming to jail for me at 3am is hardly part of that reason. I'd make sure my young contacts have access to a big gun. Meanwhile, the young guns can come to the jail, perform damage control, comfort me, remind me to stay quiet, outline a preliminary strategy, etc.

Disclaimer

This is not legal advice. I have shared what I would do and gave reasons. You should do whatever meets your fancy.

swingpress
April 19, 2008, 12:08 AM
A practical pistol club I shoot with has a self defense liability policy as one of the benefits of club membership. I think that's potentially a great benefit, but I need to have a close look at the policy.

MillCreek
April 19, 2008, 01:09 PM
I have taken a look at the self-defense policy amendment at the link above, and it looks like the real deal. I have not read the main policy, but only the amendment. As written, it provides both a civil defense and indemnification for any civil suits arising out of the use of a firearm for self defense, up to the amount of the policy limits, and a single set of policy limits applies regardless to the number of claims filed from a single incident. This means that they provide a lawyer to defend you in a civil liability lawsuit and pay for any such verdicts or settlements.

I did not see any restrictions limiting the coverage only to use of a firearm at your home, unless your state law only allows the use of a firearm in self-defense at your home. The policy definitions, "legally possessed firearm", "act of self-defense", etc., do reference the lawful possession or use of a firearm. So if it is unlawful in your state to transport a loaded firearm by auto, and you use it in self-defense, that would likely not be covered. If it is unlawful in your state to use or possess a firearm, that would likely not be covered. This is actually pretty standard in liability insurance policies; you don't provide insurance coverage for unlawful acts. The courts have said this is against public policy.

I see also that it provides up to $ 50,000 reimbursement for a criminal defense arising out of the use of a firearm for self-defense as covered under the policy. The reimbursement only applies if the charges are dismissed or the policyholder is acquitted. You do have to advance the legal defense costs on your own first, and if the charges are dismissed or you are acquitted, you would apply for reimbursement, up to $ 50,000, from the insurance company. There is no civil liability coverage or criminal defense reimbursement if you are convicted of a crime arising out of the use of a firearm.

So what this all boils down to is if you lawfully use your firearm in self-defense in accordance with the law in your jurisdiction, and it is not a criminal act, this policy covers you for any civil lawsuits. If you use your firearm in self-defense, but that use was unlawful according to the law in your jurisdiction, there is no coverage under this policy for any civil liability or criminal defense reimbursement.

Since your personal homeowners, renters or personal liability umbrella coverage generally provides no such coverage, this insurance would.

jakemccoy
April 19, 2008, 03:53 PM
Be prepared to have a load of cash around to defend yourself and to sue the insurance company for reimbursement. That's better than nothing, but make sure to understand that the insurance only kicks in at some point after a final verdict of lawful self-defense.

shdwfx
May 13, 2008, 06:56 PM
Ok. I read the policy and have a question about Additional Definitions 'M'.

“Act of self defense” shall mean the act of
defending one’s person by the actual or
threatened use of a “legally possessed firearm”
as may be authorized by any applicable local,
state or federal laws of the state or jurisdiction
within which the “bodily injury” or “property
damage” occurs.

Does that mean this policy would not cover liabilities for an act of self defense on the behalf of another person?

Siderite
May 13, 2008, 10:52 PM
A slight bit of thread drift, but on a related note, some lawyers have teamed up to form the Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network. It also has the support of Massad Ayoob,Tom Givens, James Yeager, Louis Awerbuck and John Farnum (see affiliated instructors or read their ejournal). Also provides discounts for training with many of these instructors (see ejournal).

link: http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/

The Lone Haranguer
May 14, 2008, 12:03 AM
I see also that it provides up to $ 50,000 reimbursement for a criminal defense arising out of the use of a firearm for self-defense as covered under the policy. The reimbursement only applies if the charges are dismissed or the policyholder is acquitted. You do have to advance the legal defense costs on your own first, and if the charges are dismissed or you are acquitted, you would apply for reimbursement, up to $ 50,000, from the insurance company.
Swell. :rolleyes: This reminds me of the time my truck was stolen, I rented a car and the insurance policy reimbursed me. Which they did, but I went overlimit on my credit card in the meantime. My new policy provides the rental. I think I could pay a lawyer for about 30 minutes, tops.

dschutte
February 5, 2009, 02:51 AM
The NRA is great and I really appreciate them. On the other hand, they definitely seem to have a need to get up to speed on recent movements like the Castle Doctrine being passed in several states.

Personally, I would recommend the financial and legal plan through www.CHLPP.com (http://www.chlpp.com). They claim to cover all fees in an incident up to and through a Grand Jury, and also provide access to a 24/7 "hotline" where you can get access to a specialized attorney. I just signed up for the 4-year plan myself.

The NRA plan may cover some civil liability that the CHLPP may not, but how relevant is it now with the Castle Doctrine that claims to give a defendant immunity to a civil suit? Plus, it doesn't seem to have access to an attorney in the know about legal self-defense.

Blessings,
Dan

chuckusaret
February 5, 2009, 12:20 PM
I'd call the police and then my attorney in that order.And then keep your mouth shut until your attorney arrives

CAPTAIN MIKE
February 5, 2009, 08:14 PM
Awhile back a SWAT officer and I co-authored an article for Concealed Carry magazine entitled 'After the Shooting Stops: the Aftermath of a Lethal Encounter'. Its written from the combined perspective of two people who carry and bring their training and experience to bear. One is a veteran police officer and one is an attorney. If you'd like to read it, let me know at EagleFiveZero@gmail.com and I'll send it along for you to review.

rscalzo
February 5, 2009, 08:47 PM
I handled security for a rather large law firm in NJ. I can tell you that no one pages anyone after office hours. You only get voice mail and maybe a call back in the am. Of course this was not a criminal defense firm so time was not that critical. But any of the criminal laywers I was familiar with di not get paged. If didn't have their home or cell number, you were out of luck. Few had those numbers.

BlackhawkPaul
March 22, 2009, 09:35 AM
The only valid answer to the question in this thread is Mill Creek's answer above. Yes, you need NRA's Lockton Risk self defense legal defense insurance liability policy. All the rest is feel-good self-rationalization about why you do not want to spend the premium money to buy it. It is an easy rationalization until one needs the insurance. Then, the rationalization becomes "I always meant to buy it". Redundantly, the only REAL answer in this thread is Mill Creek's answer. Some of the other answers have some useful info but have giant subjective rationalizations. The best metaphor to this scenario might be if the questions asked was whether or not one needed auton liability insurance or not. Read the thread in that light and you will see what I mean. Redundantly, YES! YOU NEED THE NRA LOCKTON INSURANCE!

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