Was the 9mm uncommon before the Wundernines?

Greetings. Recently I was pondering how the meteoric rise of the .40 S&W is lost on me, as I didn't get "into" guns until 1998 or so.

Then it struck me: for five years now I've taken it for granted that 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP are the "staple cartridges" of America, with .38 and .357 in addition.

But one might think that things were somewhat different before every guy with machine-tools was building a double-stack 9mm. Before the Glock 17 and the adoption of the M9, did many folks own 9mm pistols? Did practically every gunshop in the land stock 9mm ammo? Or was it considered an underpowered Euro-cartridge?

Were many 9mm firearms common in the US prior to, say 1975? I can think of the BHP, Lugers, and the S&W 39. Would appreciate the knowledge of those who lived through that time period, who can shed light on the rise and fall of cartridges.

The 9mm was and is the most popular cartridge chambered for pistols in the world.

Capacity has little to do with it.

1975... As I remember it...

In 9mm:

Lugers, P-38s, Colt Series 70s, Hi Powers & BDAs, Stars, and S&Ws.

In .45:

Colt Series 70s and S&W revolvers.

Hey The "generic" 9MM has been around for many years. The original wondernine for me was the Polish Radom. This pistol started production around 1935 and had a decocker, hammer retractor, grip safety, Commander style ring hammer and single stack 9MM magazine release a la 1911. There were mostly 25, 32, 380 and 7.62 automatics before the 9MM became a euro standard. The ultimate wondernine would be the WWI Luger with shoulder stock, hi-cap drum magazine and 8" barrel. Wondernine is subjective. I remember my first S&W 9MM. It was a POJ. The BHP was a also ran when compared to the success of the Walther P-38 or P1. There have been many wondernines like the Campo-Gyro too. They seem to be able to shoot just about anything in the 9MM family. The S&Ws, Colts and even Rugers have been slow to develop wondernines. Berretta even held back on their develpment of 9MM pistols until after WWII.

Although, as has been pointed out, the 9 is/was the world's most popular military round during the 1900's, they weren't very popular in the U.S. before the wondernine explosion. It was certainly around, but the military had .45's, and sport shooters generally favored revolvers (ah, the good old days), except for target shooters, who used highly tuned .45's.

As I remember, it seems that the big surge to 9mm followed the switch from revolvers to pistols that took place in law enforcement. Prior to that almost everyone that I can think of had a S&W 19 or other model as their defensive weapon. There were certainly other brands being used but the .357 was the big thing in handguns. Best, Mike

The first centerfire handgun I ever fired was a 9mm, in the early 1970s, out of a war bring back Luger. I don't remember the 9mm being considered a serious personal defense cartridge, although I was a kid at the time. I read every gun magazine I knew about (at least a half dozen a month, every month throughout most of my childhood). In fact I had talked my parents into allowing me to subscribe to all of them. I even got a gun related newspaper that was a weekly. Anyway, I remember my uncle briefly owned a BHP, a lot of people I knew had war trophys, but I don't remember reading a whole lot about the 9mm like you do today. Back then, as was mentioned, it was either the 1911, or more likely a revolver. I believe those were the glory days of the .357 revovler.

I don't recall many 9mm's in the early '70's. Everybody shot .38/.357's or .45ACP's. A lot of people thought the 9mm was underpowered and was just an oddity. There weren't as many good bullets and powders as now.

I don't believe people thought the 9mm was underpowered; they just did not give it much thought!! The .45 ruled the roost in the semi-autos and .38/.357 in the revolvers in America. It was S&W that pretty much pushed the 9mm on the American market with some nice pistols and they at the time considered the 9mm a 'potent' round. With improved ballistics since then how could it now be 'non-potent'?

During this time also the 9mms (incl. of the 'short') were the preferred round worldwide. Remember that the BHP pretty much ruled the roost from the 1930s coming up and it was chambered in 9mm. The Maks (.380) were also popular esp. in the Communist regimes.

There were certainly Hipowers, P38s, Lugers and S&W 39s around in the '50s and '60s. I remember reading a gunsmithing book from the time that dismissed the accuracy potential of the 1911 in favor of the inherent accuracy of the Luger.

On the other hand, when Sig-Sauer and Browning decided to import the P220 model in the seventies, they chose to offer it in .38 Super and .45, rather than the European standard of 9mm for that gun.

For Europe, 9mm was and is a military caliber. Not only were the majority of service pistols chambered for it, but ALL Western submachineguns were 9mm, and subguns remained a frontline fighting tool well into the '60s and '70s.

Interestingly, in Europe the 9mm was only starting to be embraced for police use during the seventies. The terrorist incident at the Munich Olympics made it a priority to get the police away from .32ACP into 9mm. The P5, P225 and P7 pistols were a direct result of that need.

So I would say that 9mm had a global coming of age in the late seventies and early eighties as it graduated from European military caliber to a worldwide military and police caliber. Whether coming up from .32 or down from .45 it is a potent, size efficient cartridge that was already a standard in some circles.

Those of you that feel that Europe "forced" 9mm on our military are wise to remember history. No one else wanted .308 or .223 either, we got our way on those.

I think the 9mm was fairly uncommon prior to the advent of the wundernines and adoption by the police forces of the high cap autopistol. As noted, Lugers, P38s, war trophies, the occasional S&W 39 were sometimes seen but not to the extent you see nines today. The big US autopistol with shooters was and still pretty much is the Colt 45.

"except for target shooters, who used highly tuned .45's."

Don't kid yourself, Bob.

Worked over S&W revolvers were VERY common in the bullseye shooting circles. The company's large-bore centerfires were very common sights, even at Camp Perry.

Remember that in 1980 only 3% of cops in this country carried autos! For autos you then had the 1911 in 45 or the BHP in 9mm or for a concealable gun one of the 380s. Also in 1975 very little had been done with hollow points for auto , the guns weren't designed for it either. And you even had atricles in magazines that stated that only the reloading expert should should ever even attempt to reload autos.Then you had the very strong prejudice against auto (' those autos ain't reliable' ) despite the excellent record in war of the 1911 and BHP. Times have changed.

As I have always adorned the single-stack Smith
& Wesson model 39-2. As a matter of fact, I still prefer
it over the original S&W model 59 and its off spring!:uhoh: :D

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

"The BHP was a also ran when compared to the success of the Walther P-38 or P1."

Josey show me 80+ countries using either for 68 years and counting.

The BHP was the ONLY hi-capacity 9mm auto available in the US through the late 60's. SW's first 9mm only held 8 rounds.

The 9mm came into its own in America in the early 70's with interest in Police departments looking at semiautomatic pistols. And to be frank, many of them were reluctant to use the venerable 1911/45 auto. Look up a gun digest from the era and you just won't see that many 9mms, there are a few, but the choices were limited compared to the market now.

BHP, Mauser-made commercial Lugers, SW mod. 59, Colt Commander, Llamas. Occasionally surplus lugers and p-38's.

It was an interesting point in the Zodiac case that the kiler used a 9mm pistol, fired 11 times without reloading. SFPD knew immediately that there was likely only ONE available handgun in America in 69 that could do that, the BHP. The killer was later spotted with a "military type handgun" many think this was a BHP mistaken for a 1911.

Outside gun historians and arms experts I doubt anyone knew what a Radom was.

You're right Mike; I should have specified I was talking about the 1970's time period - when certainly most of the winners at Camp Perry were using 1911's. I still remember (and may even have) the articles about Charlie Askins' Pachmyer .45 (way before the 70's)- "of course, any gun this highly tuned is no good for general use" - wonder what they'd say now! They (whoever they are) ought to reprint some of those old articles showing things like the Colt Woodsman .22 Mr Askins converted to centerfire for target use, but was banned from using at Camp Perry. I think the bullseye games in general receive short shrift in the popular gun press, although many of the advances we have today were created there. Maybe you could write some articles about King cockeyed hammers and other good stuff.

1975?

It was not until the mid-1980's that people started looking at the 9mm pistol. It was 1984 that the military officially adopted the Berretta 9mm pistol and that made a big splash in the news for the shooting public.
It was the 1985 Miami shootout that got the law enforcement to look at auto's, even then it was not until the late 1980's that many switched over to auto's.
I think what pushed many PD's from the .38 Special & .357 Magnum revolver over to the hicap 9mm auto was that the 'gangbangers were all going over to the high capacity 9mm semi-auto pistols. The police were feeling undergunned with their traditional 6 shot service revolvers while the crooks had like 15rds to their 9mm pistols.

Anyway, back about 1985 I would say that .357 Magnum revolvers and .45 auto pistols were the most popular. The 9mm was just getting noticed and it was really the high capacity that got people interested in them.

When I first got into shooting in the 1980's, 9mm used to be expensive compared to .38spl and .45ACP. It cost me more to shoot 9mm ball than it did .45ACP ball.

The introduction of wondernines and exploding popularity of such guns lowered 9mm ammo to what it costs today. We can thank TV and movies for this in legitimizing this caliber in the USA.

Tommy,

The 1985 Miami shootout was not a turning point for autos - the FBI was already issuing them. The Miami thing was the first downturn in 9mm popularity for LEOs. It was not followed by a flurry of auto selection, it was followed by period of discontent and adoption of NEW non-9mm guns.

Police departments had been converting in mass to 9mms since the early eighties. While the M9 wasn't official until 1984, the Beretta was the front runner in tests since 1977 or so - the shooting public and cops were aware of the gun. Ruger was said to have gotten in on the 9mm feeding frenzy late with the 1985 P85 and Steyr gave up on their GB wondernine in '85, feeling the craze was over. And big departments like NJHP had adopted their 9mms (P7M8s) as early as 1982.

The period you're talking about was when 10mm made it's big showing and .45 a comeback. A year or so later, .40.

Many departments allowed cops to transition at their discretion - that's why wheel guns remained common. Today's PDs are less flexible.


In 1975, you would only see a few autos, but they were there. "Blues Brothers" correctly shows IHP with 1911s and even the oddball P9S was seeing some issue, as well as the proven 39.

I think the Glock 17 was first available in the USA around 1988.

"Outside gun historians and arms experts I doubt anyone knew what a Radom was."

Don't kid yourself, Dr. Rob.

Radoms, while never available in the numbers that the P-38 or Luger were, were offered by numerous sources in the 1950s and early 1960s, and were fairly popular, to boot.

There were several articles/significant mentions of the Radom in American Rifleman in the 1950s and 1960s, and similar references in other firearms magazines, as well.

I've got a Radom. Great gun, but it's just not extracting the way it should.

Bob,

Yep, by the 1970s, the tide had certainly turned in competitive circles toward the .45.

Prior to that, though, the distribution was a lot more equitable.

There was an old photo hanging on the wall of one of the admin buidings at Camp Perry when I was going there for American Rifleman that showed a line of shooters just post WW II. A GOOD mixture of firearms -- 1911s and various types of revolvers.

As for writing articles, this website is the only gun writing I do anymore.

Glock USA started selling G17s in 1986. The G19 came out in 1988.

CWL,

I remember that, too!

I bought my Radom 9mm in 1982, just before I started college.

I used to balk at the price of even generic 9mm ammo! I'd hoard my brass for reloading, and be very upset when I couldn't find all of the cases!

I recently unearthed a box of American Eagle 9mm FMJ that I would have bought sometime probably before 1985...

$14.95! :eek:

Now, 20 years later, you can get a box of 9mm for what, $7 on sale?

I stopped reloading 9mm a LONG time ago.

When I bought my first centerfire in 1994, 9mm UMC at Walmart was around $10. Now ten years later it's $5.86.

At this rate it will be free by 2010.

"9mm UMC at Walmart was around $10. Now ten years later it's $5.86.

At this rate it will be free by 2010."

If the choice is between free Rem-UMC and paying for Winchester white box, you take the free stuff, and I see you after I get through the register line.

UMC was all they had cheap, then. Walmart now sells Win. UMC and PMC for $5.86 a box.

UMC is crap, but all I had for comparison.

Hey NO knock on BHPs!! I simply meant that folks wanted Lugers, Walthers, Stars and even Radoms for 9MM handguns in the 50s and 60s. BHPs were beginning to gain in the 60s for their capacity. The 15 and 17 round clips have made them even more popular today. I was first a Star shooter. Cheap, Nazi marked, 9MM and it worked fine. I have BHPs and a new BHP MKIIIS is being built into a new CCW weapon. They are still simply not highly recognizable to a novice. I have a neighbor that loves my ivory handled Colt SAAs. (They're Rugers)

The original post was about the hi-cap wonder nine. And I still politely disagree that the Radom was in use in America in any vast numbers until the iron curtain came down. Far more Lugers and P-38's came home in the dufflebags of returning GI's. Let's face it no US soldier served in Poland in WW2, and capture guns were likely recaptures from German soldiers.

Heck, makarov ammo used to sell for $20 a round it was so scarce.

The 9mm took a long time to catch on in the states, but its here to stay.

As I recall back around the late 1960's the only 9mm commercial ammo available was loaded by Remington, Peters, Winchester and Western with the 124 grain full metal case bullet.

My dad had a Llama 9mm that he had bought in 1948. It was built along the lines of a scaled down 1911. But had no grip safety or inertia firing pin. The trigger was pinned at the top instead of sliding like a 1911 and the grip was at almost a right angle to the bore. You could also set the safety with the commander style at half cock. It would fit inside a German military P-38 holster. It was the first center fire handgun I ever fired, it was very accurate and fed those Peters 124 grainers without a hitch.

In 1968 we discovered a mail order source for military surplus 9mm that was 3¢ a round. Commercial 9mm was 8¢ and 45 was 13¢ back then.

In 1969 our local store started carrying Norma ammo. The Norma load was 115 grain FMC and you could tell by the report that it had a little more zip to it.

Around 1971, I believe, that we learned of this little place up the highway from us in Indiana (we lived in Kentucky) called Super-Vel that was loading a new kind of ammo. I still have a few of those original 112 grain Super-Vels lying around somewhere. It was like nothing we had ever seen before.

I believe it was the advances in ammunition that helped the popularity of the 9mm. It was better bullets that made it able to compete with the 38, 357 and eventually the 45.

"And I still politely disagree that the Radom was in use in America in any vast numbers until the iron curtain came down. Far more Lugers and P-38's came home in the dufflebags of returning GI's."

Duh, I already said that, Rob. I already said that the Radoms were in far fewer numbers.

"Radoms, while never available in the numbers that the P-38 or Luger were, were offered by numerous sources in the 1950s and early 1960s, and were fairly popular, to boot."

That's not Greek. At least I don't think it is.

But the fact remains that the Radom arsenal, under German control, produced an estimated 50,000 to 75,000 Radoms during the war that were Nazi marked, on top of the probably 10,000 that were produced by the Poles.

These guns were distributed widely through the German army in ALL theaters. They were popular, and they were reliable. And at the end of the war, they were captured, and like so many other guns made in areas that later fell to Soviet control (CZ, anyone?) made it to the United States as surplus.

Also as I noted, these guns were available through distributors such as Hunter's Lodge in the 1950s and 1960s.

The Radoms were common enough that, against as I noted, they were featured in several articles in a variety of shooting magazines from the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

I owned a Radom in 1982.

The owner of the gunshop where I bought my Radom also had a Radom.

Two police officers in the town where I was a newspaper reporter owned Radoms.

A coworker at NRA owned a Radom.

And I regularly saw Radoms on the tables at gun shows.

Unless there was a secret Radom pocket in the Mid-Atlantic states in the 1980s, prior to the fall of the ComBlock, I'd say that's a pretty good indication that Radoms were NOT, as you claim, solely the provenance of arms historians and firearms experts.

Again, were they as common as Lugers or Walthers? No. Those guns were made in far greater numbers.

Were they rare, however? Far from it if Hunter's Lodge was offering them for sale.

The 9mm was certainly not extremely popular in the US until, say, the 1970s, but it was far from rare. American firearms enthusiasts began buying the Luger pistol in 9mm as soon as it became available, even prior to World War I. I have seen at least two standard-length P.08 pistols on exhibit in museums which are reputed to have come from Mexico before the entry of the USA into the Great War. This is taken as evidence of German military advisors being present in Mexico, fomenting the border troubles for the purpose of keeping the US out of the European War. Never having had the opportunity to examine the provenance of these two pistols, or even to find anyone knowledgeable about pistols around those museums, I take leave to doubt this origin. I think it more likely that there were hobbyists on both sides of the Rio Grande then, just as now, and someone made a private acquisition.

Military personnel returning home after the Great War brought all sorts of souvenirs, and captured enemy armaments have been the favored mementos of warriors throughout the ages. The Lugers and Mausers chambered for the German service cartridge led to all the major US ammo companies offering the 9x19, though not as commonly as the “home grown” ammo.

The 1930s were a fertile period for firearms development, beginning with the Tokarev in 1933. At least two of the major 9mms were introduced in 1935: The Browning GP (High Power) and the Vis, produced at the Radom facility in Poland. These were followed closely by the Walther Heeres Pistole (did I spell that correctly, Marko?) which soon was modified and adopted as the P38. Luger production continued well into WWII, and the Italian Glisenti was a 9x19, of sorts. (For goodness sakes, do NOT fire 9x19 Luger ammo in one of the latter. It will chamber but the pistol was made for a much lower pressure loading.)

Bring-backs of the European 9mm pistols accounted for a lot of US sales of commercial ammo, and many of the pistols did yeoman service for years. None of the guns were produced in the US, though, and it took a few years for the European arms industry to get up to speed. Adoption of foreign surplus pistols by any law enforcement agency would have been ludicrous, though surely some officers carried their personal trophies. (And some private individuals, too - - a friend of mine was assaulted on The Fort Worth – Jacksboro Highway in the 1950s. A single FMJ from a Vis/Radom stressed the axiom, “Don’t bring a tire tool to a gun fight.”)

There was no US-produced 9mm service-type pistol until the advent of the Colt Commander and the S&W Model 39. The Commander was first marketed in 1949 but I can’t find earliest date it was offered in 9x19. The M39 was offered for sale in 1954, but was scarce for several years thereafter. I recall seeing Browning High Powers marketed in the mid-1960s, in ads aimed at selling for law enforcement use. They used the same illustration for years: A HP shown with a seven-point star badge. In 1967, I worked at Tarrant County Sheriff’s Office in Fort Worth. Uniformed personnel were required to carry ONLY Colt or S&W four-inch .38 or .357 revolvers. One dispatcher tried to obtain permission to wear a brand new BHP, as I did with my M39 I got in ’66. Didn’t work for either of us. The CID Captain carried an Inglis-produced BHP in plainclothes, though, and I coveted that pistol.

I think it was the late 1960s, perhaps early ‘70s, when Illinois State Police became the first US LEA to issue a 9mm sidearm, the M39. They were about the onliest ones for several years. A few more followed their lead.

The French-made MAB PA15 attempted to sorta, kinda, follow the trail blazed by the BHP. It was still a single action auto, though, even if it held a couple more rounds. One should mention the H&K VP70, I guess - - More noteworthy for the polymer frame than for the double action only trigger, but still not widely popular.

The first “Wondernine,” using the current, common, parlance, was the S&W Model 59, combining the 9x19 cartridge and DA/SA of the P38 and M39 with the double column magazine of the BHP. This first came about in 1971. (I went to SCS&W to verify my recollection of the date, and find that Supica and Nahas used almost identical language to the above in their historical intro to that section. ;)] A series of S&W models following along this track have been introduced since that date, a surprising number of them pre-dating the introduction of the Glock pistols to our shores. (I do not intentionally neglect the Beretta wondernines, but there is a gap in my knowledge [and interest] in that regard.)

I was a college student/hospital employee, making about $300 a month when I saw that Montgomery-Ward’s in Fort Worth had a wooden barrel of greasy old P38s beside the pistol counter. Your choice, $35.00. During that time, good GI 1911s could be had for around $50. But a new Browning HP was $69.00. The latter was NOT an “also ran,” they were simply far less common on the used military market, and first-run commercial guns are always higher priced than current surplus.

I believe it would be fair to say that:
1. the war souvenir 9mms made a fairly wide introduction of the 9mm to America,
2. the S&Ws broke trail and started the acceptance into widespread use, and
3. the Glocks solidified its adoption in the USA.

Isn’t history fun? :D
Johnny

Back in the 1960's our local police department adopted Browning Hi-Powers in 9mm. Some of the senior leaders were former Marines and were very comfortable with SA pistols. Great to see them walking around cocked and locked.

Unfortunately, they have gone to the Dark Side and changed to the .40 Short & Weak in some lawyer proof pistol variation.

Johnny,

1935 was a VERY fertile year for handgun development...

In addition to the BHP, and the Radom, you also had the French MAS (not in 9mm, though, and the Finnish Lahti, which was in 9mm.

There's at least one more, which I'm forgetting at the moment for some reason.

Am I wrong, but wasn't the 10mm designed in response to the FBI's problems of penetration with the 9mm and .45 cartridge?

I remember hearing that, as .45 hits hard but doesn't penetrate an automobile very well, and neither does the 9mm. The 10mm was the shiznit, tho.

No, the 10mm was developed before the Miami incident. The 9x19 in its FMJ versions penetrates automobiles very well.

Wow, this thread has gotten far more informative than I had first expected. But I'm a bit puzzled by a point Mr. Guest brings up: if 9mm was a (relatively) exotic cartridge mostly used in bringbacks and imports, why did S&W bring out a 9mm pistol?
Wouldn't that be kind of like Kel-Tec or Kahr bringing out a 9x18mm? What was S&W's game plan in chambering a pistol for a "foreign" cartridge?

The 39 was created for a possible military contract. The US military contemplated getting rid of the 1911 in favor of a 9mm DA as early as the fifties. They didn't follow through, but the US got a good gun and gun family.

The 39 was later used a silenced weapon by Seals in Vietnam. It was called a "hush puppy" and was used mainly for killing sentry dogs.

"if 9mm was a (relatively) exotic cartridge mostly used in bringbacks and imports, why did S&W bring out a 9mm pistol?"

The 9mm wasn't really an exotic cartridge. It wasn't really well known here in the US until after the huge surplus surges of the post WW II period.

S&W brought out the 39 for possible military and foreign contracts. We weren't using it that much then, but the rest of the world sure was.

well even back in the 60s and 70s if you did not have a 9mm or 2 in your collection you really where not much of a handgun collector. The big down was the cost of the ammo and the brass, that and it was loaded to a really weak standard that gave a bad rap to lugers for jamming as it was badly out of specificatiion on the cases even. There was no SAMI spec on 9mm back then. And yes back in the 60s and 70s you saw a lot of BHP and Radom guns about too. Also in that time period there where no .380 guns made in the USA too but you saw a lot of them around.

Just dredged an interesting tidbit up from deep in the gray matter -- American 9mm ammo was almost responsible for the "coup de grace" of Smith & Wesson....

In 1940, Smith & Wesson was on the verge of a very serious bankruptcy. The depression clobbered them, and even with the war on the horizon, they weren't doing so well.

In step the British, who are desparate for firearms of all types, just as S&W is desparate for money.

The British offer S&W $1 million to design a light semi-auto carbine firing 9mm ammo.

S&W takes the money, and even though they don't have any recent practical experience with rifles, start to work.

The result is the Mark I Light Rifle -- a beautifully made, machined & blued, semi-automatic carbine. Heavy as sin, complex, etc.

Well, the British come to check it out, and are very happy with it. Performance is great, so they take several hundred back to Britain.

Soon after, S&W gets some very angry calls -- the Light Rifle is breaking, often, and badly.

After some head scratching, S&W figures out why...

They used Winchester 9mm ammo, not British military ammo, which operated at significantly higher pressures and velocities. The guns were developed and sprung for American ammo.

After some rework, resulting in the Mark II Light Rifle, testing was again begun with much the same results.

Britain demands its money back. Only problem is, S&W's spent a lot of it develping the rifle, so it looks like the company is going to go out of business.

Enter Carl Helstrom. He works out a deal with the British whereby S&W will supply them with handguns, LOTS of handguns, as repayment of the debt, with the understanding that more handgun contracts would be forthcoming.

Situation solved, and S&W saved from bankruptcy.

All of this simply because American 9mm ammo was pretty wimpy.

The true moral of the story?

ALWAYS find out how your customer is going to use the device. Your idea of how he'll use it may be fundamentally different from his idea.

All of this simply because American 9mm ammo was pretty wimpy.

Could this be the reason that the 9mm got its reputation for poor stopping power in the US?

It always struck me as odd, given that the round was seen as a "Grande Puissance" (GP in GP35 or Hi-Power) cartridge in Europe.

Any ideas?

The varience between US and Europe ammunition also tainted our XM9 tests when several guns jammed on the low power US ammo. The Star 30, which has an excellent rep, was one.

Could this be the reason that the 9mm got its reputation for poor stopping power in the US?
Yes, and probably even why we have the 357 SIG (which really does nothing more than matching today's top 9x19 ammunition) and the .40 S&W.

FWIW, 9x19 was fairly common among the special operations troops and some others during Vietnam (60s and 70s). If you can find it, one of the photos of the last chopper lifting off the American Embassy shows an American AF officer with a BHP in hand.

"could this be the reason why the 9mm got its reputation for poor stopping power"

That, combined with the fact that there were no jacketed hollow points up until I believe the 1960s for the 9mm, and even after there were JHPs, it was another 20 years until designing them went from guess work to science combined with testing.

The JHPs of the early 1980s showed HORRIFIC expansion results.

The ones today are a LOT better.

That's the truth (and the .45 ACP wasn't much better--if they expanded, they didn't penetrate). I guess the Federal 9BP of the late 80s was probably the first decent 9x19 JHP. The outstanding service calibre pistol ammuition available today is largely due to Miami, and the resulting FBI research and standards.

My father sold his Colt Commander in 1954 to buy my mothers engagement ring. I still have the instruction sheets for it. It lists the Commander as available in .45 Automatic, Super38 Automatic and 9mm Luger.


I remember a friend of mine in Junior High (1967) whose father bought a Lahti from a mail order ad in Guns & Ammo. I recall thinking it was a huge and clunky piece, but very well made.

And I remember the Beretta Brigadier was available in the 1960s.

And let's not forget the "silenced" P38k carried by the agents of U.N.C.L.E.

Ah the P-38k, wish I had one of those!

there is a big difference in 9mm ammo loaded for submachineguns and regular fodder. I don't buy that US ammo is wimpy argument, just look at the ballistics tables. What remington aclls +p+ is 100 FPS faster than what Winchester calls a standard.

You can't shoot hot rodded 45 Colts in a Colt either.

American 9mm ammo of the 1940s was significantly behind even standard German and British handgun ammo of the same time period, Rob.

The British had one flavor of 9mm ammo for both handgun and submachine guns during WW II -- there was no separate ammo designed for use only in Sten guns. It was that ammo that caused the Light Rifle to choke badly.

I'm not sure about Germany, but I'm pretty certain that they also only had one flavor of ammo -- no separate subgun ammo.

US 9mm of the '40s and '50s was loaded with the war trophies made by angry occupied country factory workers in mind. Beware the Nazi proofed Hipower.

Of course I negelected to mention the Star (model b or c?), and The Astra 600.

Who can forget (remember) the infamous Astra 400? It was chambered in 9mm browning long but was advertised in several magazines and being able to fire;

9mm Browning Long
9mm Largo
9mm Steyr
9mm Luger
.38ACP
.38Super
9mm Kurtz (.380)

Many writers warned against using the .38 Super but I know a person who shots humdreds of them through HERS with no ill effects. The recoil was noticably sharper though. The Astra 400 did seem capable of firing anything that would fit under the extractor. I think it was the 90º grip ange that helped the magazine feed so well.

When I started to shoot 9mm in the late 60's, early 70', guns for it were easy to find and frequently cheaper than 45's and revolvers. The Stars, P-38's and Brownings were great to shoot but the ammo was a problem. Somewhat expensive, not much was available in bullet/round selection even when reloading. I can remember experimenting with turning ball ammo into hollow points on a metal lathe because they were dificult to get locally.
I think that the coming of age of the 9mm and the baby boomers at the same time along with the acceptance of the nine by the LEA's gave the cartridge and it's guns the commercial market success we have seen. Good ammo soon followed that success.

Me, I just love shooting BHP's:D