[madhatta]

I picked up a stack of old issues of G&A from the local shop. I know most people here don't care for Col. Cooper, but I find his old columns at least entertaining to a degree...
So, I found some references to what he calls a 'crunchenticker' I am assuming this refers to his disdain for the 9mm, especially the 'wondernines'- but I can't figure why this word was chosen or what it really connotates.
thanks
madhatta

[9x19]

Its just another Cooper-ism, as inane as most of the rest.

[cadfael]

Usually a crunchenticker refers to a traditional DA/SA pistol.

Crunch (first shot DA)
tick (SA for subsequent shots)

Adam

[PCRCCW]

Ohh Contrare....Cooper is a fan of ONE Trad. DA pistol......the beloved CZ75...Most Cooper'ophiles find this exception to his rule..understandable.
Shoot well

[tiberius]

If I recall it is Clint Smith (he is for The German hill country of TX) that makes up the fake German words that Cooper popularizes. I think they're pretty funny myself.

While he does have a general disdain for minor calibers, this particular word is just showing his disdain for DA/SA actions. This disdain was acquired through extensive testing at his training facilities. He is a trigger fanatic and even prefers DAO (though he hates the term) over DA/SA because at least you don't have to change your grip after your first shoot. He has been complementary to the performance of Glocks for this reason. He is opinionated, but not closed minded.

He does like the CZ-75, but of course that can and should be used like a SA auto.....with second strike capability.

I like reading Cooper, he's a hoot.

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

Cooper once tried a P-38, which typically has a 14+ lbs. DA trigger, and declared all pistols of the DA/SA type unusable.

Strangely, he has no argument with DA revolvers, which use the same trigger system.

To hear Cooper tell it, the level of shooting prowess I've witnessed on many occasions with DA/SA autos shouldn't even be possible.

[Oracle]

Jeff Cooper really hasn't kept up with the times, and it shows. He does have useful information, but, you do need to pick and choose what to believe, as much of his "sage wisdom" simply doesn't apply today, as much of it has either been improved upon or doesn't apply to modern technology. There are a lot of people who think that anything Cooper says might as well be written on stone tablets and carried down from Mount Sinai, but that just isn't the case.

[Keith]

Strangely, he has no argument with DA revolvers, which use the same trigger system.

I am unaware of any double action revolver which leaves the hammer cocked after the first shot.

Keith

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

Well Keith, there is Mateba and that old Webley auto, but I know what you mean.

While Cooper certainly ALSO takes issue with the transition, his original gripe was the DA trigger.

To put it another way, the man didn't recommend DAO autos as a fix, either.

[El Tejon]

To correct the record, Clint Smith is from Fort Wayne, Indiana. I am unsure where the use of Pennsylvia Dutch originated. Could be when Clint was ramrod at API. There are several Amish communities north of Fort Wayne by the Michigan border so could have originated with Clint.

mad, Uncle Jeff disliked the dual trigger of the double action self-loading pistols. He had extensive experience with them in the service and later. However, Cooper readily acknowledged that good shooting could be accomplished with such an arrangement.

[Keith]

While Cooper certainly ALSO takes issue with the transition, his original gripe was the DA trigger.

Perhaps, but this thread is about "crunchentickers" which specifically apply to the SA/DA designs.

And I don't think Cooper disapproves of double action systems in the same way he dislikes the SA/DA system. I think his basic position is that a DA trigger (like a Glock, for example) is at least repeatable, even if it's not as precise as a SA trigger. You can overcome the bad trigger on a Glock easier than you can overcome the bad trigger and TRANSITION of a crunchenticker.

Keith

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

Without starting a semantics arguement, one could easily call a Glock SA, too. When I mentioned DAO, I was speaking of guns the fired like a DA revolver, like a Beretta 92D.

You also have to remember that when Cooper coined this happy phrase there were only two common systems - SA or DA/SA. DAO was only found in pocket guns and oddballs like the VP70 and Safe Action triggers hadn't been invented.

Either way, it is instructive to look at the P-38 that started this, rather than pistols that Cooper dismissed without shooting. All the older Walther autos have obnoxiously heavy triggers. I wonder if Cooper would have been so outspoken if the first DA auto he fired was a Sig 220.

[Ian11]

With practice I've learned I can shoot "crunch'n ticker" SIGs about as well as any Glock or cocked and locked pistol when I do double tap or triple tap drills (Mozambique). It comes down to what you're used to. If you shoot DA/SA triggers occasionally or just shoot DA/SA autos in SA mode its unlikely you'll ever get the hang of it. But if you consistently train with it its all about muscle memory, like any other handgun.

[Keith]

Cooper coined the phrase in the 70's when there were many SA/DA guns flooding the market.

And yes Ian, you can overcome the transition with enough training! It's just that it makes more sense (to many people) to start with a good system you don't have to overcome with training!

Keith

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

Cooper coined the phrase in the 70's when there were many SA/DA guns flooding the market.
We agree on that, anyway.


The SA vs. DA/SA debate always comes down to which is more important:

1. The ability to fire in any situation without being encumbered by a secondary step, and a relaxed mainspring.

2. The ability to produce target accuracy on the first shot.

Obviously, tons of adherents to either. But the statistics of defense shooting ranges (which tend to be quite short) and the incidence of self inflicted wounds seem to favor a simple gun with the a heavy enough trigger to inform the shooter of where his finger is before the weapon can fire. The need for an immediate first shot at the mechanical limit of the gun's accuracy is grossly exaggerated.

Either way works, but making an SA trigger sound like a necessity is really overstating things.


I knew a self taught shooter who attended Gunsite. He was #1 in his class - with a DA/SA Beretta.

[Ian11]

Keith,

I understand that point of view. But if one practices as much as one should with their defensive pistol any issue will become a non-issue. We're not talking hardcore shooting of hundreds of rounds every week or even every month. Just regular consistent practice with the same gun. If you have a bunch of different types of autos and occasionaly shoot the DA/SA auto, the DA/SA transition will most likely give you the most problems. Its cool to have variety but is not ideal for anyone serious about defending themselves with a handgun. Ideally one should stick with one similar system. DA revolvers, cocked and locked autos, DA/SA autos, etc. etc.

With "consistent triggers" come manual safeties ala 1911's, or funky squishy triggers ala Glocks, or squeeze cocking mechanisms ala H&K P7. Some people prefer not to to deal with these mechanisms (for various reasons) and deal with the DA/SA pull instead. It comes down to what people are used to or what they perceive they can better handle. Once you get used to a certain system other systems seem to be more problematic. Because......... you're not used to them.

[SunBear]

The Col. did coin the phrase and if I remember correctly the term "crunchenticker" refers specifically to the H&K P7 and P13 models with the huge grip safety. When you grip it to fire it, that's the sound you hear--- very disconcerting in a building search to have your pistol giving away your location. Happy trails. Smooth is fast.

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

Sunbear,

The P7 was not what the term was coined for:

DA - crunch! followed by SA - tick tick tick.


The Col. actually labeled the P7 the best minor caliber compact design. Which really doesn't fit with a pejorative name.

[PCRCCW]

Quote "All the older Walther autos have obnoxiously heavy triggers. I wonder if Cooper would have been so outspoken if the first DA auto he fired was a Sig 220."

Just for the Record...hammer style DA/SA Walthers STILL HAVE
20# DA trigger pull....and still bite the hand that feeds them.

Shoot well

[El Tejon]

Self, IIRC, Uncle Jeff dubbed the P7 the "German staplegun." (Yes, yes, I know, but I'm not using the other word so as not to offend our German and German-American members).

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

PCRCCW,

Are you talking about the P88 or the P5?

I would call a newly made PP and older Walther, since it is built as designed in the thirties.

[Tamara]

Ohh Contrare....Cooper is a fan of ONE Trad. DA pistol......the beloved CZ75...Most Cooper'ophiles find this exception to his rule..understandable.

Only because they could be carried C&L. ;)

[YodaVader]

There are a lot of people who think that anything Cooper says might as well be written on stone tablets and carried down from Mount Sinai, but that just isn't the case.


:D I'll have to agree - when I used to subscribe to Guns & Ammo he wrote some of his "words of wisdom" on the last page of the mag - thought most of it was a waste of printed space - because Cooper is a well known "gun guy" his philosophy on life in general should be something I want to read about? One of the many reasons I ended my G&A subscription some time ago.

[Cthulhu]

The usual Cooper P7 quote :
"If one is going to carry an underpowered pistol he should carry
the neatest and handiest one available and that is the H&K P7."

Pretty high praise considering the source's affection for the 9mm.

When you grip it to fire it, that's the sound you hear--- very disconcerting in a building search to have your pistol giving away your location.


:rolleyes:

[El Tejon]

Yoda, repent!!!

:D

[Dean Speir]

 

Its just another Cooper-ism, as inane as most of the rest. The wonderful irony of such a declamation from one posting as 9x19 seems to have escaped most here.

SaxonPig writes: But, he is nearly 80 years old… Actually, the Gunsite Guru is 83 years old.He was an early designer of realistic courses of fire, paving the way for IDPA and other such organizations. You disremember that he was the prime mover in the formation of IPSC at a time when the "P" stood for "Practical." I recall back in 1976 I wrote to him regarding the use of the .44 Magnum for self-defense. He took the time to write, in his own handwriting, a thoughtful response in which he never belittled me or embarrassed me. That was the time of the codification of the largely unorganized discipline of "Combat Shooting" into IPSC at the Columbia Conference at what shortly thereafter became the Chapman Academy.

One of the participants was a pretty fair urban gunfighter named Cirillo who, when the "Caliber Committee" came forth with its recommendations and the "power floor" for indexing the ballistic pendulum was somehow established at M1911 Ball from a Commander (4¼-inch barrel), pointed out that a .44 Magnum round from a 3-inch or 4-inch barrel would also fit that criterion, Jeff would hear none of it… the sense was that he didn't approve of the "delivery system."

SelfProclaimedExpert states …when Cooper coined this happy phrase ... Safe Action triggers hadn't been invented. Um, actually, that particular trigger system is 98 years old this year.

Tamara notes "Cooper is a fan of ONE Trad. DA pistol......the beloved CZ75..." Only because they could be carried C&L. Just so… in his 1983 article on the introduction of a new pistol (and chambering), in explaining why that system had been selected for the Bren Ten, he called it "the final flower of a proven design."

 

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

Dean,

What 98 year old combat caliber gun uses a double spring system to lower DA trigger pull to five pounds?


I was talking about combat pistols that were available for Cooper to evaluate. I was not using the term "invent" to imply a patent date.

[Dean Speir]

 

You scoundrel! You spoke of the "Safe Action" trigger, not a "combat caliber gun uses a double spring system to lower DA trigger pull to five pounds."

But that's okay, your self-proclaimed expertise just became a bit more rounded, for we are taking about the original "Le Français" made near the start of the last century by Manufrance… in both 9 X 19mm (which surely meets your ex post facto qualification) and .25 ACP.

Without offense, whatever you now assert that you were "talking about," you were incorrect… and if you don't think that Jeff Cooper's knowledge of small arms (and racing cars and languages and, and, and...) is extensive, then you don't know the man. He may be an old fud to some, and out of touch, and arrogant, and even, sad to relate, at this stage of his life a danger to everyone within range when he has a loaded firearm, but never doubt the extraordinary extent of what he knows, and what a marvelous conversationalist he can be on a variety of subjects, both recondite and plebeian… mostly the former.

 

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

Dean, taken in context, Keith and I were bantering about the term Crunchenticker. I was saying Cooper's problem was with the Crunch, Keith was saying he felt it was more the transition. The point I was attempting to make with my apparently imperfect selection of language is that Cooper was making some general statements about the types of combat guns that were commonly encountered and in demand at that time. While squeezecocking, DAO strikers and other odd balls had been previously fielded, the only two common systems in military and police use at the time were SA or DA/SA. The DAOs were still somewhat uncommon (despite a few models, mostly pocket guns) and the very light DA that Glock later popularized (not really invented, my apologies) were not really in the discussion. So with no other "Crunchers" in the category to compare to, I felt that Cooper's objection was largely the DA trigger pull, which happened to be awful in the P-38 that started all this.

If Cooper had just arrived on the scene today, he may have chosen an entirely different term of derision for all non SA weapons. Or, he may have shot a Sig 220 and said, "I can work with this, let's put DA/SA to the test". We'll never know.

Sorry for the confusion I must have caused and thanks for the specific reference to the Le Français. What is the trigger pull on those guns, anyway? What makes it a "Safe Action" trigger?

[Newton]

Cooper in old age is scary and a tad off his rocker, and I doubt he was ever that much different, although I doubt that age has improved him.

His constant use of the word "we" in place of "I" when talking in the first person is bizarrely arrogant (to coin a phrase).

He has long since abandoned listening, and now operates solely in transmit.

I confess to laughing out loud when he missed a steel target with his personal scout rifle, only to have Jim Scoutten hit it first time, I was however a little ashamed of myself later. Scoutten showed considerable common sense and self restraint by remaining silent throughout almost that whole interview, just nodding at the stream of strange babble that was aimed at him

I just wish that the Colonel would fade away, I have a lot of respect for his past achievements and he had some great one liners as put downs for liberal reporters, but quite frankly we need some younger blood at the vanguard of the firearms lobby, both he and Charlton Heston have had their day, and immensely grateful I am for it, but we need to move on and remember these guys at their best, and not at their shambling, slightly unbalanced worst - lest we are all seen in the same light.

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

I don't believe the use of "we" should be interpretted like the royal "we". It is a style used by editors and not seen much anymore, but I believe it is used correctly.

[SunBear]

I stand corrected. I have been reading the Col.s' writings for over twenty years and I was sure that crunchenticker referred to the squeeze-cocking H&Ks. I was wrong. A simple search confirms that it does refer to DA/SA semi-autos. That's the second time in the last ten years I've been wrong. I'm starting to slip. Happy trails. Smooth is fast.

[ambidextrous1]

Well spoken, Newton!

I am amused by how well Cooper is quoted by those who hold him in low regard.

The man's 83, and in poor health; is it asking too much to cut him some slack?

Who among us has not, and can not, learn from this seasoned veteran and accomplished gentleman?

Would the firearms sport be very different if Jeff Cooper had never come on the scene? You betcha!