Counterfeit guns?


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bdjansen
April 17, 2008, 01:38 AM
Anyone ever heard of or seen counterfeit guns? As in, guns made to look exactly like a brand name gun yet not made by that brand.

I'm not talking about different versions of a type of gun ie. 1911s but something like a fake Glock made in China, stamped "Glock" and sold as a Glock elsewhere.

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DougDubya
April 17, 2008, 01:40 AM
Like the Norinco NP228?

Prince Yamato
April 17, 2008, 01:42 AM
In Canada, you can buy Norinco copies of just about any gun ever made.

h0ss
April 17, 2008, 01:42 AM
Dont know for sure, but i saw a video online (i bet if you typed in something to the effect "pakistan weapons" or similar into youtube, you would find it) where people in a little village in pakistan make guns by hand and in the vid the host showed a gun that was being made that said "norinco" on it.

Im sure there are more that i dont know of.

cleardiddion
April 17, 2008, 02:05 AM
Oh, h0ss, that was the Vice Guide to Travel.
It's an interesting bit in a documentry sort of deal. They melt down like scrap metal and form everything by hand and a few tools, including the ammo and all that jazz. And the guy who h0ss is mentioning makes 9mm pistols in that manner and he doesn't have a tongue. It sounds like a kinda nutty place.

Isn't there a guy on the boards from Pakistan? Maybe he could tell us more about the subject.

The Wiry Irishman
April 17, 2008, 02:06 AM
Isn't there a guy on the boards from Pakistan? Maybe he could tell us more about the subject.

I think you're looking for Firepower!

cleardiddion
April 17, 2008, 02:07 AM
Yeah, that's him!
I was looking around for the posts I recalled seeing him in but I couldn't remember his name for the life of me. Hopefully he'll show soon to enlighten us a bit.

VARifleman
April 17, 2008, 02:21 AM
I remember reading a long thread about how to tell if an STI was real or made in Thailand or something like that. I wouldn't be surprised if something like this was going on, but I can't remember where I read that or how to tell if a gun is a copy.

Richbaker
April 17, 2008, 02:39 AM
Norincos aren't counterfeit, they have NORINCO rollmarked on them....

Aguila Blanca
April 17, 2008, 02:59 AM
There are LOTS of counterfeits in the Philippines. It's a big problem for makers like Colt and STI, both of which companies have their products copied. I just recently saw photos of a supposedly collector-grade "Colt" that was quickly shown by several experts to have been a poor counterfeit. Fortunately, the buyer was able to return it for a refund. It'll probably be back on Gun Broker next week.

loop
April 17, 2008, 04:07 AM
Yeah, I had one once. A guy who lived in Bisbee, but had his shop set up in Tombstone once sold me a Ruger he made himself in his shop.

It was a great gun, but for some reason he wanted the Ruger name on it.

It was stolen about 25 years ago so I have no details. The only thing I can recall other than it was .45 Colt, SA, is the serial number was 0007.

woodybrighton
April 17, 2008, 08:08 AM
I know there was a big load of noise about croatia manufacturing south african grenade launcher and uzi clones and then trying to flogg them on the open market after the war wars over :(

Deanimator
April 17, 2008, 12:02 PM
A few years ago, a friend of mine gave me a big "coffee table" type book of handguns. I figured it was going to just be one of those "this is a gun" type of things, but instead it was a very comprehensive survey of commercially produced [when it was published] handguns. What REALLY surprised me was the Norinco section. It seems as though Norinco makes an unlicensed copy of every handgun except the Merwin & Hulbert and the Borchardt, and they're probably working on those.

Aside from that, if you read the A.B. Zhuk book of line drawings of handguns, there's a section on Chinese handguns prior to the establishment of the PRC. Little workshops all over China made small runs of handguns for various officials and local warlords. Some of them were straightforward copies of the Browning 1900 and other well known firearms. Others were slight modifications. Others were weird bastards right out of a John Carter of Mars novel. There are actually people who collect these. When the OGCA show was in Cleveland, I met a guy who was on the lookout for these Chinese copies. They were cheap because nobody wanted them; they were interesting since no two were exactly alike; there were a MILLION kinds.

bdjansen
April 17, 2008, 02:12 PM
Like the Norinco NP228?

Not what I mean because you know you're not getting the real thing.

There are LOTS of counterfeits in the Philippines. It's a big problem for makers like Colt and STI, both of which companies have their products copied. I just recently saw photos of a supposedly collector-grade "Colt" that was quickly shown by several experts to have been a poor counterfeit. Fortunately, the buyer was able to return it for a refund. It'll probably be back on Gun Broker next week.

This is what I'm talking about. :eek:

I watched a documentary last night on PBS and they were talking about more then just handbags and sunglasses were getting counterfeited. Everything from car brakes to prescription pills.

Getting all this stuff into the country was not hard either. Obviously, guns are a popular item on the black market and if you can make a fake car brake, why not a fake Glock, SIG or S&W?

Jim K
April 17, 2008, 02:19 PM
Copies, licensed or not, are not counterfeits. Norincos and most of the other guns mentioned are clearly marked with the name of the actual maker, so while they may be copies, they are not counterfeits.

In the mid-1800s, Belgium was a source of many Colt copies, some of them marked Colt. More recently, in the 1920s and 1930s, Spain produced tons of revolvers that looked like, and were often marked as, Smith & Wessons. With more arms controls these days, true counterfeits are rare, outside places like the Khyber Pass area.

Sometimes, the copies are pretty good. Many gunsmiths believe the Norico M1911A1 copies are the best on the market, superior to most of the modern (and much higher priced) clones made here or in other countries.

Jim

Geronimo45
April 17, 2008, 02:42 PM
Yes. Not sure what model, but it's a copy of a SMLE/Lee-Enfield with ladder sights. (probably fake) India markings on it. Doesn't chamber .303 or .308. Think it has 007 as some part of the serial number/proofing marks/random writing.

El Tejon
April 17, 2008, 02:45 PM
Wait, let's define our terms. Are we talking about unlicensed knock-offs of known brands or "guns" that look like guns but are not guns?;)

cleardiddion
April 17, 2008, 02:54 PM
I actually ran into a guy who had bought a Khyber Pass Lee Enfield online. He was planning on putting full power .303 through the thing. I only found out the rifle's origins when he mentioned it off hand. We were checking it out and I noticed that there was a pretty good sized crack on the inside of the chamber, not a good sign. Turns out he hadn't really given it a detailed look over and that could've been the makings of a bad day for him.

rgs1975
April 17, 2008, 02:59 PM
I've heard you can find cheap copies of S&W revolvers out there. They're usually stamped Taurus.

:D

csmkersh
April 17, 2008, 03:12 PM
When I was in my 20s, Colt SAA were about $15-$20 a piece. That is, except for the hard to find Sheriff's Model. Some would find a old model circa 1940, remove the the ramrod and tube, weld up the frame and then polish and reblue. Then they's roughen the finish, remove the blue, rust it a bit and sell it as an original Sheriff's Model. I've a Star/Ruby revolver that's a fairly good copy of a S&W, but made no attempt to misrepresent themselves.

http://home.flash.net/~csmkersh/Pics/Ruby%20Extra%20.22%20LR.JPG

RenardSubtil
April 17, 2008, 03:32 PM
i was carousing collectible 1911s over the web the other day and noticed a pretty interesting Vietnam war era 1911 "bring back" that was made by the VC from a forged mold(?) and basically welded/glued together somehow...crazy.

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